T-Bone

Excellor Session After-Meeting:

Look, Rosco, you’ve been very repetitive.

My stop-watch shows - on average - your interpretations run 4 seconds, while your tongue is 75 seconds.

Do you see the problem?

Now maybe you think you’re rocking’ that tie, but your  pi$$  a$$  poor attitude at Excellor Sessions really sucks.

3 hours ago, Mike said:

In other words it is SUPPOSED to be a mechanical and flesh bound triviality when it comes to the part WE have to do in SIT.  VPW demonstrated this when he did SIT in the film.

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I figured this out in the 70s and it helped a lot of people over the hump in several Intermediate Classes.

sure you did

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

You were expecting VPW's film class SIT to be something mystical sounding or like a radio announcer in style? 

The fact that you object to the mechanicalness of how he did it shows that you did not deeply comprehend what was going on in that aspect of the PFAL teaching.  Don't feel too bad, though, you have a lot of company here in this error. 

what a condescending bull-$hit artist !     

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

God does the hard part in supplying what is said.  We do simple, trivial, mechanical, fleshh actions, and God designed the human body with this S.I.T. stuff in mind, and He wanted to make it as easy as possible, so "no one gets missed."

and you know that how?   

22 hours ago, Mike said:

Oh, for me the abundant forgiveness of sins was a HUGE bonus.

Are you telling me that God's abundant forgiveness made no impression on you?  But the idea of abundant "carloads of money" was what caught your attention?    What a sucker you are, if you thought you'd get rich American style with PFAL.

We were happy with an abundance of manifestations there were to learn, and an abundance of genuine tongues fluidity that is not counterfeit-able. 

1." not counterfeit-able" ?!?!?!    what a crock of $hit ! see my point # 4 below.

 

22 hours ago, Mike said:

But if you were one of the one who was satisfied with faking tongues, then again, the sucker is you holding the bag. 

2. oh, so now the bull-$hit is in the other glove. See my point # 4 below

 

22 hours ago, Mike said:

When I had a suspicion of my tongues being not genuine I actually DID SOMETHING about it.

3. Oh yeah  - here’s what Mike actually did – refer to comedy routines and studied the repetitiveness of someone speaking in tongues – whoo-hoo Mike’s  the linguistics expert    – I replied to his absurd claims here > > > my post Tuesday 4/25/2023 11:51 PM                    

 

 

22 hours ago, Mike said:

How a person could fake it for years indicates a deep sense of dishonesty that doesn't go away with leaving TWI and bashing PFAL.

4. The most dubious phrase of Mike’s absurd  argument is  “satisfied  with  faking  tongues” .  This exemplifies Mike’s lack of cognitive skills in that he  cannot  distinguish between fact and fiction.

I’m being nice in the way I worded that if I would have said will not distinguish between fact and fiction, we’d get into willful intent = someone’s intention to knowingly and deliberately act or refrain from acting in a particular manner or to achieve a particular result.

If he cannot – are we witnessing symptoms of a delusional disorder .

If he knows the difference between fact and fiction and with  willful  intent  deliberately  acts to obscure the difference – he’s acting more like a troll than someone who is delusional.

~ ~ ~ ~

Mike is being misleading to say if one were  satisfied  with faking in tongues. Satisfied means convinced. People that buy into scams are convinced they are legitimate. It does not necessarily mean the one being conned is really stupid – it could mean the con is a really deceitful trick.

I got into  this ridiculous argument with him when after leaving TWI and looking into this – I came to the conclusion that what I did was not genuine speaking in tongues.

My first time through the class, I did not suspect wierwille was teaching anything deceitful.

NOW, READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY > > > It’s possible wierwille thought he spoke in tongues and was passing on how to do it. That doesn’t mean he had genuine speaking in tongues or could teach others how to do something that is  ONLY  allocated and energized by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit.

 

In 1974 during session 12, I followed wierwille’s instructions exactly! And you know what? It sounded like another language. But I’ve come to believe what I did was not a real language. Speaking in tongues was in my top 20-some-odd items to investigate after I left TWI in 1986.

My starting point of examination was in the green book,  The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10  How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following:

Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues…

…The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue.

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

The full version of reevaluating wierwille’s instructions are in  my post Nov 9th 2022 11:21 PM of Why PFAL sucks   and   here  – but for brevity’s sake     I’ve condensed  my notes - but you'll probably still fall asleep zzzzZZZZzzzzzZzZz 

wierwille’s description of the process of speaking in tongues is typical of his affinity to explain the inexplicable. 

Although he's just describing some of the mechanics of speech - a student's imagination can assume God is supplying the words. All he is describing is very fine motor skills that any adult who speaks a language is very familiar with.

The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions.

Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the body parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making.

 One must still engage the brain to think of how to control the lips, tongue, how much to open or close the vocal folds, etc. .

 

Now try this yourself - pronounce the word teeth.

pronounce the word cat.

pronounce the word baseball.

Did it take any great mental effort to do that? I'm assuming you are familiar with the words teeth, cat and baseball and have actually spoken those words outload in some conversation. If English is your native tongue and you're an adult, the speed with which you saw those words, understood what they meant, deciding to comply with my request and then forming and controlling the various body parts to say those words was super zip-zap-lickity-split-quick ! Did you experience any noticeable "buffering"?

 

Did you see one of these floating across your eyeballs?

   

 

 

Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues?

 

If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like  wierwille’s bogus Great Principle  – God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible?

How does genuine speaking in tongues work? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask the Holy Spirit.

See below * mechanics of speech

~ ~ ~ ~

How to speak gibberish.

As I got further and further into analyzing what wierwille taught and compared it to readily accessible information on the mechanics of speech – it dawned on me that I first did in 1974 was sleep back into an old talent I had for imitating an Asian or  Russian language for entertaining my high school friends. It’s merely speaking gibberish.

How to speak Gibberish - secret language

Gibberish 101: how to speak in Gibberish from Laguna Laughter Club

The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions.

Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making.

Adults have fun playing games like literary charades – sort of a reverse of speaking gibberish - - one player making exaggerated silly moves and the others have to guess the word. A good example of this is in   Young Frankenstein: give him a sedagive scene .

 

Sometimes we misspeak. I’ve accidentally made up a word. We recently re-watched Austin Powers in Goldmember (2002) - IMDb   Beyoncé’s character is   indirectly   telling Austin Powers who she is  It's me Foxy Cleopatra – after the movie we were quoting lines from it and I said    It’s  me  Foxy  Clara Petra.  Surprised us all with a good laugh – it was not intentional.

 

If we had a bunch of time to waste for no good reason    - We could print a redacted form of wierwille’s description of the mechanics of speech on page 117, to read like generic instructions – something like:

Relax and act natural. Move your lips,  move your throat, move your tongue, move your mouth but do not think of the words you are saying. Then randomly pick 100 strangers and ask them to follow these instructions. Once they got over the odd situation and silly request and agreed to follow the instructions - how many would start speaking gibberish? How many would go through all the motions but not produce a sound? And finally, HOW do you know – or rather HOW could you verify they are not thinking of the words to say?

wierwille was not qualified to be a linguistic expert. And neither is Mike. Has anyone ever recorded these tongues or better yet have the person speaking in tongues perform before a panel of language experts.

 

What’s recorded in Acts that authenticated the speaking in tongues was genuine was that certain witnesses in the audience understood that language.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

wierwille’s instructions reveal his fixation to specify and detail otherworldly stuff that he obviously knew nothing about.

 

Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues? If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle – God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible?

~ ~ ~ ~

It’s conceivable that some faked it and knew that they were faking it because the pressure was always on from local PFAL grads (and of course TWI- upper-leadership) to speak in tongues… in the minds of TWI-leadership that was wierwille’s approved litmus test =  the decisive indicator students had absorbed the material and were compliant with instructions. It doesn’t prove a thing other than the harmful and controlling power of a cult-leader impersonating an apostle.

 

Don’t get me wrong – by and large I believe the manifestations and other gifts of the Holy Spirit are available – and it’s the  Holy Spirit   that does the issuing ( see below * * The  Holy Spirit  assigns the gifts / manifestations )  not    the  imaginary-rinky-dink-car-battery-holy-spirit concept wierwille taught in the class distributed by TWI…wierwille himself knew how to fake tongues – something Grease Spotters can read in the excerpts from the authorized book on The Way International - - see   my post Nov 22nd 2022 6:06 PM on Why PFAL sucks        and   my post Nov 22nd 2022 9:17 PM .

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

*Mechanics of speech:

https://www.speechbuddy.com/blog/language-development/a-quick-primer-on-the-mechanics-of-speech/

https://prezi.com/p/ketszfrzz2ox/mechanic-and-process-of-speaking/

http://www.literary-articles.com/2012/03/mechanism-of-speech-process-and.html 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill

Organs of Speech – Literature and Humanities

 

~ ~ ~ ~

**The  Holy Spirit  assigns the gifts / manifestations

I encourage any PFAL grad who is concerned with the veracity of my statement that the person of the  Holy Spirit  does the dispensing should look into it for themselves – and ignore wierwille’s erroneous teaching …one convenient site is Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages   for quick access to alternate versions, lexicons, commentaries, interlinear text. It’s really easy to navigate by clicking on a tab. Below I’ve listed 3 hyperlinks to the primary chapters wierwille expounds in Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. Read the following chapters  for yourself, in any translation – the ones I have below are The New International Version:

1 Corinthians 12 NIV (biblehub.com)

1 Corinthians 13 NIV (biblehub.com)

1 Corinthians 14 NIV (biblehub.com)

54 minutes ago, Mike said:

You didn't cite me here.  You took my material nearly word-for-word in places, and idea-for-idea in places. 

And assuming you and I have discussed this before, you switched positions on this issue of PFAL p.83 and come over to my side, the side I've been posting on here for 20 years, and I was always opposed by everyone on it.

I think I owe a thanks to Nathan Jr for first recognizing I was rightly dividing PFAL page 83.  

I salute your progress, and am not that angry that you didn't cite me. It would have just cluttered up your post.

 

I didn’t cite you?!?!

I didn’t cite you?!?!

                        

What a ding bat

Why should I cite you ?!?!? 

WHERE do you see me switching positions on ANY issue in PFAL to agree with you?!?!

These whacky posts of yours are  bat-$hit crazy  !   

 

Grease Spotters can read my rather loooooooozzzzzZZZzzzzzzZZZzzooong post where you quoted this from for the context  by clicking > > >  my post Saturday 4/22/2023 9:49 PM of Why PFAL sucks

 

For the viewers at home to understand the seriousness of Mike’s cognitive dissonance, all they have to do is think about what I am saying in this excerpt and compare to Mike’s position on PFAL.

Mike claims all of PFAL is God-Breathed. wierwille’s statements that I quoted from page 83 of the orange  PFAL book   implies  SOME  of what wierwille writes is God-breathed. And by the way, it does NOT specify WHAT written works are God-breathed.

Also just wanted to point out a few other deceitful debating tricks Mike is pulling here. That excerpt he quotes is from item # 137 of Why PFAL sucks  which is  PFAL supplements Biblical authority.

This is hilarious – Mike uses the goofy Bible-sounding phrase he’s "rightly-dividing" PFAL by accepting wierwille’s claim to be true – that some of his writings ARE God-breathed. Fine Mike – you can believe that if you want to.

My post in Why PFAL sucks reveals the subtle implication of wierwille’s claim. It shifts the Bible’s authority away from the text-in-context of the Bible and  onto  wierwille’s  self-assumed authority. In the video of the  PFAL class wierwille takes it even a step further to undermine the authority of the Bible at one point even saying to listen to him instead of following along in the Bible - if it's wrong , I'll tell you. ... .. ...

 So, I’m not agreeing with Mike – at all. I’m saying that the writings of that pathological liar, plagiarist, egomaniac, money-grubbing-phony-PhD, abusive, exploiting, mean, sexual predator wierwille   are NOT God-breathed!

It looks to me like wierwille’s writings were his depraved-a$$ attempt to subvert the authority of God and the Bible.

Stick that in your mighty-divided coherency and smoke it.

What a stupid thing for you to say                                     

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue ^a does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, ^b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, ^c unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, ^d say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues

and through the lips of foreigners

I will speak to this people,

but even then they will not listen to me,

says the Lord.” ^e

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27  If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28  If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

34Women ^f should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. ^g

36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored. ^h

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

1 Corinthians 14 NIV

On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:

For the past two weeks I have been reading a lot here; far more than every before.  I’ve also been resisting the urge to post every time I see an opportunity. That has helped my reading progress.  I even got another chapter read yesterday in “Undertow.”

This post is dated March 2^nd 2023, 8:06 AM.

What chapter of Undertow are you up to now?

And what’s some of your thoughts so far?

 

 

On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:

OldSkool, the more you share your life here, the more I can relate to what you folks are doing here.  A few others have also helped me relate to how things went at TWI after I left in 1988. In my mind I was leaving before 1988, and openly criticizing the Corps tactics and structure even as early as 1982.   So I turned a deaf ear to lots of TWI-2 by the ’86 meltdown.

The more I read the more I see that things changed more than I thought in the late 80s and thru the 90s. 

I have to admit, this separating the baby from the bathwater is more complicated than I thought it would be 20 years ago.  

What I am trying to say is I am better recognizing the culty trappings of the Corps and TWI-2 and TWI-3, and the difficulties in breaking away from them.  Translated into action, these observations have led me to read more and post less.

Does this mean you don’t see any “culty trappings” in TWI-1 under wierwille?

Are you saying you wish it would all revert back to TWI-1 under wierwille?

 

On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:

This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true.  It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.

I can understand doing a thinking experiment and using various motifs to think through a problem.

But do you think you’re pushing it too far when you try squeezing Scripture to fit into your mental model? So far you have NOT  demonstrated how your double door / budget theory is a good fit with Scripture.

Why would God Almighty have to be concerned with accidentally giving the adversary access to mess things up? Do you think the adversary is a pretty close match for God Almighty?

 

On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:

But NEVER have I been entertaining the thought that God is interested in “turning off miracles.”

I always see it as a temporary STRATEGIC measure, that God would cause the doors to close.  It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us that I see as God’s motivation behind the closed doors.  I think He is always looking for the safe opportunity for Him to bless us in ways that do not allow the adversary the ability to mess it up. Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances.

 

strategic measures = used to track progress in achieving objectives and goals.

How is God closing said “doors” tracking the progress of limiting the adversary’s power over us? Is it too difficult for God to do a one-time nuke to stop him dead in his tracks? Serious question here! Why do you think the adversary has been allowed to harass humankind from the get-go?

 

 

On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:

God not only looks at our believing before a miracle occurs, but afterwards as well.

He sees in fore-knowledge where our believing will be after the miracle. I feel God looks to see that we are ready and able and believing for the miracle, but He ALSO looks at our believing to handle the “after-challenges” of the adversary. 

An example of this might be how Elisha handled the post-healing scenario with Naaman, compared to how Gehazi mis-handled it.

An interesting observation Mike! Thanks ! Good stuff !

I think there’s a lot of other big lessons to unpack in II Kings 5.

Gehazi’s greed may have cast doubt over the integrity of Elisha’s prophetic office – by Gehazi telling Naaman the situation had changed and Elisha had now changed his mind over accepting a gift for Naaman’s healing (which he declined in verse 16) ; Gehazi lied and said it was for a good cause – 2 young sons of he prophets just got into town and needed money and a change of clothes.

Gehazi’s actions / lies reveal a lack of faith in God’s ability to provide. Gehazi intended to take something from Naaman – and in classic OT poetic justice – he “took” Naaman’s leprosy…for Gehazi - personal gain had become more important than serving God…I find in this account a great lesson about true service being motivated by love and devotion to God and seeks no personal gain.

Perhaps this should give one pause and reflect on what it says about TWI-1 under wierwille. I find it hard to believe wierwille had good intentions – motivated by love and devotion to God – since his ministry was largely based on plagiarism for personal gain.

 

With those preliminary remarks out of the way – enjoy reading II Kings 5:

1Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy. 

 

2Now bands of raiders from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife. 3She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”

 

4Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. 5“By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents ^b of silver, six thousand shekels ^c of gold and ten sets of clothing. 6The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”

 

7As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”

 

8When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house. 10Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”

 

11But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.

 

13Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!” 14So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.

 

15Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”

16The prophet answered, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.

17“If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”

19“Go in peace,” Elisha said.

 

After Naaman had traveled some distance, 20Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said to himself, “My master was too easy on Naaman, this Aramean, by not accepting from him what he brought. As surely as the Lord lives, I will run after him and get something from him.”

21So Gehazi hurried after Naaman. When Naaman saw him running toward him, he got down from the chariot to meet him. “Is everything all right?” he asked.

22“Everything is all right,” Gehazi answered. “My master sent me to say, ‘Two young men from the company of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talent ^d of silver and two sets of clothing.’ ”

23“By all means, take two talents,” said Naaman. He urged Gehazi to accept them, and then tied up the two talents of silver in two bags, with two sets of clothing. He gave them to two of his servants, and they carried them ahead of Gehazi. 24When Gehazi came to the hill, he took the things from the servants and put them away in the house. He sent the men away and they left.

 

25When he went in and stood before his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”

“Your servant didn’t go anywhere,” Gehazi answered.

26But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money or to accept clothes—or olive groves and vineyards, or flocks and herds, or male and female slaves? 27Naaman’s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever.” Then Gehazi went from Elisha’s presence and his skin was leprous—it had become as white as snow.

2 Kings 5 NIV

wow wee wow - this may be a Grease Spot first  - a post that visually represents tongues with interpretation...except it seems to be mostly an unknown tongue.

Hey Mike, back up and try again - I realize you may have something important to say in all that. 

(a comment from a moderator- I deleted the glitchy post at Mike’s request)

 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

  Someday I'd love to delve into details on this.

The non-counterfeitability of SIT was something I studied long and hard in the decades before GreaseSpot, but then I put my notes down, and I never got into it here, so I am very rusty on it. But it is an important subject.

I have a folders (paper and digital) on this topic also going back to the 70s.  In the digital is an .mp4 of an old 1990s VHS of Andy Kaufman playing bongos and singing in tongues or faking it.

Hard to tell  which is which.

silly example Mike

you just cheapen this whole topic and appear you don’t know what you’re talking about.
 

 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

How do you know your HS gibberish was not genuine tongues?

Because I know by comparing what having real spiritual gifts feels like. I have confidence in what I offer in service to others that I don’t need wierwille’s counterfeit validation or someone’s silly analytics to blow smoke up my a$$ to make me feel good about myself.

 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

BTW, my theater friends told me they call it gibberish in their circles.

is one of your theater friends named Kermit?

its time to put on makeup 

it’s time to light the lights

 

god I love that show!
 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

They also will do low volume  "raspberries and strawberries" mantras to simulate a crowd of people talking randomly amongst themselves.

I have thought people like Andy Kaufman (my hero, along with Firesign) might be born again and his bongo SIT was real.

I noticed someone here posted a different Andy Kaufman doing non-singing gibberish, again maybe SIT. 

here’s the thing. I believe if someone has a gift they know it. In the natural realm , if someone has a gift for investing, painting, building repairing - whatever- they know it! Schooling and experiences may help hone their skills but the gift to almost effortlessly do whatever they do at any stage in their career I would think comes naturally. 
 

 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

I also studied complex rhythms in dance were similar to complex rhythms of rap artist friends of mine when I was doing Open Mics.

that does not make you a lingusitic expert

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

In your HS gibberish did you ever go for VERY LONG periods of time, like 10 or 20 minutes to see if there were repeating patterns?  Did you even know to do such an experiment?

i could do my schtick all different ways - and had a few pat phrases - doesn't mean anything or prove anything. all that was done by me deliberately thinking and articulating what phony foreign language words to say

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

I am very rusty on this, but re-awakening circuits as I type.  If I ever have time we ought to get into this, and I'll break out my folders.

Meanwhile, I have explored the repetitiveness of gibberish with my friends to see if it resembled the repetitiveness we see in many PFAL grads. 

repetitiveness means NOTHING unless it's actual words using a real language. you don't understand what is being said. I had a lab/springer spaniel who would get excited when we played with her and she'd start making weird noises like she was trying to roll her "R"s. sounded funny. was it a language ? don't know I only speak poor English. 
 

you need to take a long hard look at the instances of SIT in Acts. Certain Witnesses understood the language. That’s what authenticated it!

wierwille and sycophants use tongues of angels as a gimmick to hide behind the fact their tongues produced in mass quantities all over PFAL-ville are languages…what is the language of angels? Get some linguistic experts on it - languages of any race , species or beings will follow the norms of what makes a language. 
 

can’t believe I bought into wierwille’s fakery for 12 years!

 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

But grad repetitiveness is what I looked at most, and helped others overcome the most.  Being able to SIT for 10 or 20 minutes out loud with no noticeable repetition patterns is a big deal.

how so? I could do my schtick for a loooooooooo zzzZZZzzzz  zzzZZZZzz ng time.

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

I have often thought that part of the non-counterfeitability of SIT was due to the ZERO motivation counterfeiters have to get fluent with it.

oh there is lot's of motivation to fake it. new students don't want to look like they failed. You don't want to be the only one in the class who DOESN'T manifest...you're kidding yourself if you think there was no pressure on new students to speak in tongues...class coordinators got called on the carpet if they report a new grad didn't manifest.

and while we're on the subject of manifestations - I challenge you to study I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 in the Greek text and in alternate translations...wierwille steered us wrong ! the Holy Spirit does the distributing of gifts - not some VHS or Betamax tape from TWI...and you don't need a class to be taught how to serve with a gift energized by the Holy Spirit -   - it's NOT dependent on you and wierwille coaching you to use your dinky holy car battery.

The Holy Spirit is a person! Not an inanimate car battery! In our language we capitalize proper names - Holy Spirit - so it's not holy spirit...and here I play by T-Bone's house rules so it's  wierwille   and   NOT    Wierwille because there's nothing proper about a pathological liar, drunkard, lying-thieving-weasel, plagiarizing, megalomaniac, abusive, egotistical, exploitative, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, cult-leader...if I left anything out - let me know...

...so with all of your great analytical skills examining spiritual things - taking note of repetitiveness, intensity and modulation - how come you've never noticed that wierwille was a repeat offender, an unrepentant sinner, a career criminal with many talents, distortions and transforming himself into a man-of-God?

 

 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

I have noticed with repetitive grads, that if you listen REAL close, there are all sorts of modulations of volume and rhythm that seems to augment the vocalization envelopes.  So if the vocalization envelopes for these grads carries less information due to repetition, but the volume and rhythm modulation carries lots of info, then the repetition that is most noticeable ain't so bad.

Maybe you're hearing things...I've noticed you miss a lot of details - not reading long posts by others - taking forever to read Undertow...seems like you have the attention span of a cat - and that makes you a linguistic expert?

 

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

Anyway, that’s all the time I have for SIT right now.  I am swamped with a large backlog of posts I want to respond to next, and some posts I haven’t even read yet.

I’m home sick today so I may get to some of that backlog today.

get well soon

On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:

PLUS, I want to post my Double Doors scriptures. There are not that many. I culled out the most clear ones to keep things more simple.

what ?!?!

that's all you've got ?!?!

you call them  "the most clear ones". ?!?! 

oi vey - this thread is doomed

On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:

This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true.  It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.

 

cool - I think what you admit here is honest...

HOWEVER - rather than insisting the ideas are hidden somewhere in Scripture is NOT cool - it's not being honest with the Word of God. 

For something to keep popping up in your head might just mean you need to look elsewhere than the Bible. 

 

Have you ever given much thought to  philosophy of religion ? 

Philosophy of religion is the philosophical examination of the central themes and concepts involved in religious traditions...it's not biblical theology...you get to examine and evaluate other religions. Philosophical discussions on such topics date from ancient times, and appear in the earliest known texts concerning philosophy. The field is related to many other branches of philosophy, including metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics.

Last few years I've gotten more into and enjoy reading and learning stuff from Taoism, Confucianism - will check out Zoroastrianism soon. ..The Case for God by Karen Armstrong is another good book - there is often commonality in all religions when they try to address the big questions of life.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

In the early 1970s I put much effort into my own study of who Jesus is, and who the Bible says he is, and what Jesus said himself OF HIMSELF. At times this study could be called feverish or emotionally driven.   My Catholic background and family were a strong trinity tug in my pre-Bible mind, so I was literally afraid of getting it wrong, who Jesus was.

This was all a few years before JCNG came out in 1976. 

Because I had made this topic “my own” at such an early date, when the 1986 meltdown of TWI happened, I watched grad after grad succumb to trinity pressures that I had wrestled with years before.  Most grads barely read that book with retention, and hardly anyone did their own systematic scouring of their KJV on the topic like I had.

One of the things I noticed about this, is that grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God very deeply seated in their minds, still often held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches. 

Grads who could only mouth the phrases of JCNG, often still had Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds. 

I was deeply impressed by 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”  

I see one infinite character and one finite character in that verse. 

 

Mike, a few questions:

What does watching a grad succumb to trinity pressures look like?

And what were those pressures that you wrestled with?

How did you notice grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God in their minds?

How did you know they held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches?

If they mouthed the phrases of JCNG – how did you know they still held Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds?

What does this Trinity stuff and disparaging grads who still believe in divinity of Christ have to do with God’s budget, double doors and scarcity of miracles?

On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:

I am recalling way back to the 1970s to when I first started a paper folder for this topic.

The term "double doors" is merely an alliteration for an idea, making it easy go remember, and there are the iconic bar room double doors in our vocabulary.   The idea may be in scriptures, but not with my nomenclature.

Nomenclature = Nomenclature is a system of names or terms, or the rules for forming these terms in a particular field of arts or sciences. The principles of naming vary from the relatively informal conventions of everyday speech to the internationally agreed principles, rules and recommendations that govern the formation and use of the specialist terminology used in scientific and any other disciplines.

Naming "things" is a part of general human communication using words and language: it is an aspect of everyday taxonomy as people distinguish the objects of their experience, together with their similarities and differences, which observers identify, name and classify. The use of names, as the many different kinds of nouns embedded in different languages, connects nomenclature to theoretical linguistics, while the way humans mentally structure the world in relation to word meanings and experience relates to the philosophy of language.

I am not trying to be super critical or pedantic…so how about some constructive criticism for developing your communication skills. As the definition says, naming things is a part of general human communication. One thing that bothers me in a discussion is when someone tries to redefine a word or create their own acronyms . Sorry to say this but you do that quite a bit.

A tangent of that is you sometimes attempt to squeeze a modern definition, imagery or concept into an ancient text. This thread for example. I get the idea of a set of bar room doors – same idea as restaurant double doors from dining area to kitchen – facilitates staff / servers to go in / out quickly and easily. I don’t see it in Scripture and thus far you have failed to show the idea in Scripture.

Bar room double doors may be in YOUR nomenclature, but they do not appear in Scripture. If I could make a suggestion of a book that has helped me – more than any other book - to cultivate, discipline and anchor my mind to biblical ideas it’s   Dictionary of Biblical Imagery by Ryken, Wilhoit, and Longman  …the following is an excerpt from Amazon describing the book:

…Every reader of the Bible has encountered the powerful, comforting and sometimes puzzling imagery of Scripture. These concrete pictures with their hidden force have struck sharp and lasting impressions on our minds. Their imprint has etched itself on the language and grammar of Christian faith and Western culture. Why then do traditional Bible dictionaries and reference works offer so little help to explorers of the Bible's galaxy of verbal pictures? They excel in describing the climate, borders and location of Galilee or Sinai. But they are often blind to the artistic expressions and deaf to the musical meanings that echo from within the world of the biblical text.

The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery is the first contemporary reference work dedicated to exploring the images, symbols, motifs, metaphors and literary patterns found in the Bible. More than that, it examines the Bible's universal archetypes or master images--including the plot motifs and character types that recur throughout life, literature, and the Bible. This unique dictionary explores the dazzling variety in which the Word of God comes dressed in clothes of everyday life…

 

I think it could be very helpful to one’s personal study and could make one a more effective communicator of the correct message of the Bible.

 

 

On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:

I was thinking of interventions between the spiritual realm into the physical realm as being possible for BOTH God and the devil. That is what the "double" refers to:  both God and the devil are limited by them being shut.    But      when God opens them, both of them suddenly have access.

 

while I’ve got you on the phone - - -  I wanted to point out a certain incoherency.

1.Both God and the devil are limited by bar room double doors being shut.

2.But when God opens them, both of them suddenly have access.

 

If # 1 - both God and the devil are limited by bar room double doors being shut, then # 2 contradicts # 1.

How could God open the bar room double doors if He is also limited by them?

statements 1 & 2 cannot BOTH be true.

 

maybe this was addressed earlier on this thread - pardon my repetition - I slept since then 

 

On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:

If what I am talking is an abundantly clear pattern in the scriptures, then it can rise above the charge of private interpretation.

it's not even remotely a pattern...there is no pattern! You are imagining things...that's okay - but maybe check out the Dict. of Biblical Imagery I recommended - it might clarify patterns in the Bible that you have ignored.

On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:

If not then I have to drop it and not teach it.  

it doesn't appear to be - you're continuing to theorize / preach / teach it   anyway

 

On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:

I will be producing the scriptures that convinced me enough to at least bring it up here in the "Doctrinal Dungeon" as opposed to teaching it in a twig.  I have never taught this all these years.  I have brought it up to about 3 or 4 people I thought could handle it, and they encouraged me to look into it deeper.

I'm thinking if you had brought it up and be honest in a discussion that uses the Socratic method, we all could have helped to rid the idea of inconsistencies.

As a side note you might want to check out a thread in doctrinal - here's my starter post for Concerning the Bible - confessions of a former fundamentalist  > my starter post Nov 1st 2017 3:36 PM ...Many of my beliefs have changed since I came to Grease Spot Cafe 17 years ago - and some are still in a state of flux. Why? I love the Socratic method and talking with others who don't believe the way I do. True  communication between people is reciprocal - both parties may experience some shift in their viewpoints.

Love and peace

T-Bone

 

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It doesn’t. That’s what the margins are for.

The pen is a double-edged sword. Use it to delete AND add words. Use your tools. Imitate victor in all things. 

True dat!

True story: 

After I took PFAL in ‘74 I bought a wide margin Bible that had the wide margins in the middle - 2 columns in the middle and passages on either side - sounds like something out of 4 crucified “on either side one” ; smart design cuz you’re not writing close to the edge (for suicidal writers.   ) or close to the book binding (for those into bondage.  … note same emoji used cuz effects of cult Kool-Aid the same).

 

I loved this hardbound Bible so much I had a leather cover made with a big fold over flap  - put a round TWI logo sticker on the flap.

 

I put a lot of work into that Bible. It was KJV of course but did not have missing words italicized. So I went through entire Bible and underlined the words that were italicized using the small KJV Bible given to me by my girlfriend who got me in the class.

 

Used different colored pens and a straight edge to write notes from all of wierwille’s books, my own studies and it even had some corps notes too.

 

When we left TWI  / our assignment location we had a garage sale  - I scribbled out my name in the front and sold it for like $5 . I took the leather cover off that bad boy and put it on my hardbound Dakes Annotated Bible - they’re about the same size. I bought Dakes after using one in Rome City corps library - also noticed it might be something wierwille used in some teachings - like when he taught 15 things about blah blah - if you’ve ever used or seen a Dakes you’ll know what I’m talking about…oh yeah took the round TWI sticker off the flap. Still have Dakes - use it sometimes…the research that interprets itself and all that jazz.

 

Regrets? 

 

Yes - I worry the lady that bought it started her own cult - and didn’t give me any credit for all the plagiarized material I put into it. I should have left my name on it…

To T-Bone be the the glory 

great things he hath done

he so loved his cult

but now it’s not fun

On 2/28/2023 at 12:34 PM, Mike said:

All we have are scriptures to guide us in these matters, and they plainly say that God's angels were hindered, and it was a tight struggle.  I believe God's handling of this matter was the best way, and He tells us, with scriptures, what His angels had to go through.   We should not second guess this situation; just learn from it.  It was a close, difficult struggle.

 

Learn = acquire, retain and recall new information.

Theorize = to think of or suggest about what is possibly true or real.

 

Mike states all we have are the Scriptures as a guide – but he wanders off into theory-ville.

Where does it PLAINLY SAY in the account that “God's angels were hindered, and it was a tight struggle”? Mike’s statement is not using Scriptures as a guide. They’re more like a launchpad for improvisation.

I’ve noticed Mike’s commentary on accounts of divine beings in action, he usually seems to favor the bad guys. Odd…really odd... Reminds me of wierwille’s demonology – always fascinated with the dark side – as if to scare followers into trusting his twisted and perverted slant on the Bible will protect them from the boogie man.

On 2/28/2023 at 1:57 AM, Mike said:

I wonder what the age distribution in Jesus' 12 apostles was.

Similarly for the about 500 disciples he eventually got.

Seems like they all were the hippie types, who could kinda drop everything and tour with Jesus like he was Jerry Garcia.

Hmmm, I'd estimate the age distribution to be about mid to late teens and into the twenties.  That Jesus would know them cult tactics, too, I guess.

 

modern day usage of the world “cult” can cover a broad range of adoring fans – from benign, quirky, innocent like that movie or band has a cult following - - to harmful and controlling cults like The Way International or Scientology. After 20 years of his coming to Grease Spot Café I think it’s really creepy that Mike would insinuate the Lord Jesus Christ used harmful and controlling cult tactics. I’ll give him the benefit of a doubt that after 20 years of coming here, Mike may lack the situational awareness of Grease Spot Café’s purpose to expose the harmful and controlling cult tactics of The Way International.

I find it deeply disturbing he indicates he cannot tell the difference between the benevolent, honest, compassionate words and works of the Lord Jesus Christ and the destructive, deceitful, exploitative words and works of wierwille / The Way International.

On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:

Now try not to be distracted by the great example of the Great Principle that is laid out in the open here in Daniel 10, and PLEASE focus on the red fonts that show how God was limited. God’s angels were obviously limited in that chapter, and they struggled to prevail. It looks like they were on a budget that just barely worked.

"it looks like"? Did Mike actually see this? Why doesn't everyone see this?

 

On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:

From this and many other scriptures (forthcoming), I get the impression that, though God has infinite power, He has limited His use of His power for various reasons, and must work within His own constructed framework. 

I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of “Intervention Budget” SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same budget. 

how does Mike get these impressions?

 

On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:

WHY it works this way I do not know.

and yet Mike goes on and on about his theories anyway   

 

On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:

It just seems to be implied to be the case in the scriptures.  I think this maybe is what VPW was often referring to when he said the God did things “legally” and   not just     willy-nilly. 

Legally = adverb - in a way that conforms to or is permitted or required by the law: “the weapons were purchased legally" · "the terms of the loan are legally binding"; in terms of the law; from a legal viewpoint: "this case is legally significant" From: Legally Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

Not just = used to say that one thing is true and that another thing is also true “She's not just my friend, she’s my lawyer.”From: Not just Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

Willy-nilly = used as an adverb:

1.in a disorganized or unplanned manner; sloppily.

2.whether one wishes to or not; willingly or unwillingly:

“He'll have to do it willy-nilly.”

Used as an adjective:

3.shilly-shallying; vacillating.

4.disorganized, unplanned; sloppy:

“willy-nilly work.”

WORDS RELATED TO WILLY-NILLY = haphazardly, ambivalent, inevitable, perforce, unavoidable

On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:

I will be soon bringing out more scriptures that gave me this hunch many years ago. 

Never once have I heard VPW or anyone else in the ministry, or out of the ministry, bring up an idea like this.  I have no idea where I got it from, but it just looks that way when I read the Bible. I think the Book of Job and it’s courtroom scenes may have first planted this idea. Also in that courtroom we see the devil being limited to not killing Job. Also, the many times God’s people in the Bible just barely got delivered at the last minute suggested a budget to me.

 

I wonder where Mike gest this idea Job 1 & 2 are a courtroom scene. There is no legal or attorney-like verbiage in the dialog. The "screenplay" description does NOT reflect that of courtroom decorum. "The Satan" is just casually strolling onto the set and God says " Where have you been? "

I've already covered the culturalisms of Job 1 & 2, so my point here is calling attention to the silly fixation Mike has with trying to ramrod goofy inappropriate modern imagery into an ancient text. 

On 2/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Mike said:

God uses angels to do a lot of things. There is an interesting account in the OT about this in the Book of Daniel, where Daniel was praying for some help with something, and nothing happens for a long time, like weeks. Suddenly one day an angel shows up, and says something like “I’m here to help. Sorry I’m so late. I was detained for weeks struggling with some ‘big guy’ out there.”

That was my Super Abbreviated Version; below is the NIV

Daniel Chapter 10

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision...

 

1In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. ^a The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.

2At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks. 3I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.

4On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

7I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

10A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

12Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

15While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16Then one who looked like a man ^b touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. 17How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”

18Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. 19“Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”

When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”

20So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Daniel 10 NIV 

 

The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”… Zechariah 3:2 

 

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”… Jude 1:9 

~ ~ ~ ~

Why does Mike have such a degrading view of God Almighty and His angels?

Mike’s “super abbreviated version” of Daniel 10 reveals such a lowly opinion he has of God and His Angels.

 

In Zechariah 3:2 the Angel of the Lord is recognized as the Lord Himself, authenticating this “messenger” as deity. In other Scriptures the Angel of the Lord is frequently identified with the pre-incarnate Lord Himself: for example Zechariah 1:11 , Genesis 16:11 , compare Exodus 3:1-14 with  Acts 7: 30 - 34 . And in Jude 1:9 we read of Michael - rather than cursing Satan, deferring to the ultimate sovereign power of God – possibly an allusion to the Angel of the Lord in Zechariah 3:2.

I was re-reading a book on personal empowerment – and when the author talked about dinosaurs and the phrase survival of the fittest – my mind came back to this thread…from the book Stop Doing That $hit: End Self-Sabotage and Demand Your Life Back by Gary John Bishop a bit of urban philosophy:

SURVIVAL OF THE OBVIOUS

Contrary to popular belief, it’s not the strongest nor the fittest nor the smartest who survive.

Dinosaurs alone showed us how wrong that theory is. Some of them were strong, some were smart, but none of them saw extinction coming!

The predictors. Those who can most accurately predict change can adapt to change and therefore survive.

The good news is you are a prediction machine. It’s the single reason why we as a species have stayed around as long as we have.

Our ability to see things before they happen allows us to adjust and stay safe. We do that by remembering, by keeping score of what’s good, what’s bad, what’s right, what’s wrong, what doesn’t work, and all via a massive trench of memories stored in the banks of our subconscious for reference and guidance.

You have spent your entire life keeping track, looking for familiar keys to where things are headed, following a life of the familiar.

End of excerpts from page 41 & 42

~ ~ ~ ~

Don’t go the way of the dinosaur.

The moral of the story: Don’t ignore the mounting evidence and experiences that TWI’s doctrine and practices will doom you to failure.

Get out now!

 

On 4/23/2023 at 1:59 PM, T-Bone said:

 

Exactly !

My query was more along the lines of an open-ended question . I said the rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control , going forward - how should folks proceed?   

Your answer is perfect and I would say that goes ditto for me!

For me the question is:  to rapture or not to rapture? 

 

Since I’m not sure which way things will go, I feel the appropriate thing to do is to get into contingency planning. Contingency plans are usually developed to explore and prepare for any eventuality.

 

To me Proverbs 27:12 speaks about contingency planning, because it speaks about someone who tries to predict possible worst case scenarios and will make plans to avoid a catastrophic failure (death or great harm to self and family, devastating financial ruin, etc.) but the foolish person (a non-planner - someone who doesn’t think ahead and plan) will rush ahead, do whatever’s convenient, and end up paying the penalty. Here are a few different versions – but the idea is the same:

The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NIV

A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences…Proverbs 27:12 NLT

The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it…Proverbs 27:12 ESV

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished…Proverbs 27: 12 KJV

A prudent person sees evil and hides himself; But the naive proceed, and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NASB

A prudent man sees evil and hides himself and avoids it, But the naive [who are easily misled] continue on and are punished [by suffering the consequences of sin]…Proverbs 27:12 Amplified

~ ~ ~ ~

One interesting article I found - What Is A Contingency Plan & How Do You Create One? – Forbes Advisor has some good ideas that one could apply to the issue  to rapture or not to rapture?  - Grease Spotters might enjoy reading the whole article – one key concept is this excerpt:

Contingency Planning vs. Crisis Management

Contingency planning is the process of creating a backup plan or several possible plans. This differs from crisis management, which is the actual response to a crisis. The actual response often utilizes one of the contingency plans created but addresses the incident in real time.

End of excerpt

~ ~ ~ ~

Maybe similar to your answer I am absolutely convinced I  should  respond to all situations in life in a manner that pleases God and honors Jesus Christ. However, being the frail human that I am, knowing how I’ve failed before – many times – means there’s the possibility I could chicken-out in a pinch yet to come.

 

That being said – I do what I can preparation-wise that could mitigate certain worse case scenarios. And being a follower of Jesus Christ I tend to be morally responsible and legal in my managing. Some of that can pivot either way to handling rapture or end times stuff.

For example: I legally own several firearms – I like to target shoot and plink – and hope I never have to use them to defend myself and family from a home-invasion.

If the rapture happens – and I get snatched , I hope all my earthly possessions – firearms, survival handbooks, emergency supplies, vehicle, home, books / study Bibles / extensive library of resources will fall into the right hands – hopefully people who God already knows will put those things to good use for His Glory and the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If on the other hand I am not snatched or there is no such thing as the rapture then I am somewhat geared up for end times stuff and I’m willing to share and serve. 

 

 

On 4/23/2023 at 2:06 PM, OldSkool said:

Rapture or no we are likely to endure hard times and persecution in the near future. Scripture promises all who live godly will endure persecution on one level or another. I think you are a wise man either way. Like I say it took a lot of reading, studying, praying, meditating to get where I'm utterly convinced. Take your time and enjoy the process. I have plenty of other topics that I'm still working through and enjoying the process as wel, so it's just a fun part of us growing up into Christ  love the discourse...I'll likely respond in more detail later cause...I'm doing some hardcore chilling atm...I'll be around a lil later.

 

21 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Well, just my thinking here based on a few scriptures that I will draw from. So, the great mystery is the body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles gathered and presented to God as one new man, and individually we give account and receive reward or suffer shame and loss depending on what we've done. Judgement is starts at the house of God and that's us. So, the rapture is taking us to the bema and to be forevermore changed. On earth the tribulation starts. When Christ comes to fight Armageddon we are with him and we help with his 1000 year reign. First thing happens at Christs 2nd coming (vs his previous appearing in the air) after beast, false prophet, etc are destroyed is the ressurecction of the just. Just a few thoughts. Please compare to scripture and lets go ahead and get out the demolition tools and see what happens...

Pursuant to contingency planning for rapturing and apocalypting   , a bit of urban philosophy from

Stop Doing That $hit: End Self-Sabotage and Demand Your Life Back by Gary John Bishop  :

 

SURVIVAL OF THE OBVIOUS

Contrary to popular belief, it’s not the strongest nor the fittest nor the smartest who survive.

Dinosaurs alone showed us how wrong that theory is. Some of them were strong, some were smart, but none of them saw extinction coming!

The predictors. Those who can most accurately predict change can adapt to change and therefore survive. The good news is you are a prediction machine. It’s the single reason why we as a species have stayed around as long as we have.

Our ability to see things before they happen allows us to adjust and stay safe. We do that by remembering, by keeping score of what’s good, what’s bad, what’s right, what’s wrong, what doesn’t work, and all via a massive trench of memories stored in the banks of our subconscious for reference and guidance.

You have spent your entire life keeping track, looking for familiar keys to where things are headed, following a life of the familiar.

End of excerpts from page 41 & 42

 

11 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

You are 100% correct, Waysider!

100,000 Unpainted Arizona points for you!

All you really need to do is find 11,780 upvotes for Waysider's post.

oops - is veiled political humor a no-no?

28 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Here's a statement analogous to number 2. Let's see if anyone has the mettle and in-depth, spiritual awareness and perception to refute it:

"The distance between Austin and Dallas is simply bird's nest cellophane."

 

2 minutes ago, waysider said:

Orange. Because ice cream has no bones.

over the years many fahrvergnügens have gushed over my grapeness and asked me "how's come you so smart and figure eight  all this stuff?"

With some Gleem Toothpaste in my eye and tapping on the side of my head I say one turd "Kidneys"

 

take that Norm Crosby !

138. PFAL facilitates wierwille imposing his will on my life. 

This is a tough one to figure out – and it took me a few years after I left TWI to do it. For me the difficulty was in sorting out what the Bible (and by extension God, and of course the mysterious inner working of the Holy Spirit    ) inspires me to do and what  wierwille  said  the Bible demanded I should do.

In the first session of PFAL wierwille presents some problematic ideas:

1.The greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed word and will of God.

2. It’s a secret because people don’t believe it.

3. The Bible means what it says and says what it means.

In one fell swoop wierwille paved the way for his esoteric interpretations ( see previous item # 136   ), an us-versus-them mentality ( see item # 34 ) , and fundamentalism  (see item # 62 ).

Let’s look at this trinity of trouble:

1.Is it a secret? It’s almost funny …more like sad - how gullible I was – being young and naïve – that I bought into his contradictory concept that even though in Christianity, Judaism, Samaritanism, and many other religions The Bible is considered to be  the  sacred text for their belief system…who knew ! 

All kidding aside, I think the intention may have been to lure students into wierwille’s circle of trust. Being raised Roman Catholic I already trusted the Bible – even though it was a very simple understanding of its themes. I learned to trust wierwille because he seemed to know so much about it.

 

 ****

 

2. Do people believe it? This is where we separate the dogmatists from the cool cats. There is a world of behavioral differences between our cat and dog. Dogmatists are like the alpha dog – the dominant one in a pack setting – the pack submits.  Alphas achieve and maintain their position by strength and aggression, social efforts and building alliances. In our home, I’m the alpha dog. Dogs are social animals. Anyone who sees the way I relate to our dog and cat will witness how much I love them…spoil them…I’m more of a pet valet, I enjoy tending to their every need.  

Dogs are so compliant. We all know of someone who mistreats their dog – they could kick the dog for having a bad day at work – but that dog still loves the grouchy owner,  and greets him with a wagging tail when he comes home from work tomorrow.

To me cats epitomize the free-spirited type. They’re independent, compliance is NOT in their DNA, they have their own hobbies and interests, and conduct extensive research in the art and science of chillax. zzzzZZZZ ZZZzzz  (fyi our cat is a professor at the institute of research for long naps ... ...as you were, kitty zzzZZZ  ZZZzzz )

 

Reflecting on my time in The Way International, I was more of a frustrated cool cat trying to fit into TWI's dogmatic group-think pack. The cult-leader (during my time in it was first wierwille, and then Craig ) was   the   alpha dog and in a military-type chain-of-command instructions, directives, priorities, goals, agendas and such are passed down to the rank and file.

 

Truth be told, even though I decided to go into the way corps leadership training program (at the time thinking it was God’s will   ) being a leader…a pastor…a preacher…a teacher…an administrator…a motivational speaker…or a sales rep have never  been goals for me.

 

I’m more of a technical research and support guy – something pretty much useless at TWI. If you haven’t already read it, you should check out Penworks’ book Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International . She worked in TWI’s research department. Amazon’s description of her book says after she “was  promoted to the inner circle of biblical researchers, where she discovered devastating secrets: Wierwille twisted texts of Scripture to serve his personal agenda, shamelessly plagiarized the work of others, and misrepresented the purpose of his organization.

Worst of all, after Wierwille died in 1985, shocking reports surfaced of his secret sex ring. Amid chaos at The Way's Ohio-based headquarters, Charlene knew she had to escape--for her own survival and her child's. Reading like a novel, Undertow is not only a brilliant cautionary tale about misplaced faith but also an exposé of the hazards of fundamentalism and the destructive nature of cults.

Through her personal story, Charlene Edge shows how a vulnerable person can be seduced into following an authoritarian leader and how difficult it can be to find a way out.”

end of excerpt from Amazon page

 

 

When wierwille said It’s a secret because people don’t believe it – I think what he really meant was those outside of  his  ministry do  NOT  accept  his  unique interpretation of the Bible.

 

 ****

 

3. The Bible means what it says? What further compounds the problem of wierwille’s dogmatic fundamentalism, is his inane concept that the Bible interprets itself  (see  item # 22  ). Just pause for a moment and think about what an affront that is to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators, and textual researchers. We’re talking about a compilation of 66 different books written by 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings.

Scripture interpreting itself is nonsensical because it implies no other agency is needed. Even today when clear and accurate communication is essential an interpreter or translator is necessary to explain or express the sense of words and phrases between countries of different languages and cultures. Note there is an intermediary or go-between involved - a person who acts as a link between people of different languages / cultures.

The ancient biblical manuscripts were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. A translator of those texts is building a bridge to connect disparate people of another time, culture, and language with people of today who speak English, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Hindi, etc.

~ ~ ~ ~

So how did PFAL make it possible for wierwille to force his will on my life?

The class pushes a materialistic attitude – where material possessions and physical comfort become more important than spiritual values. ( see item # 127  ) . To attain those things wierwille  also asserts a student must  use the law of believing  (  see item # 6 in starter post for this thread ) . One way to describe my 12 years of TWI is vicious cycles of  cause and effect that would intensify, and aggravate each other…which frustrated and disappointed me to no end!  

Like many prosperity-gospel ministries, wierwille fed followers a load of unbiblical expectations (aka cult-leader bull-$hit   ).

Having a problem receiving those “promises of God” ?

Introducing the hard sell   - the vicious cycle:

You need to sit through the PFAL class again to build your believing –

or

take this class or that class or go into this program or that program to gain experience and build confidence in how God can work mightily through your believing.

In a sense you’re not following God’s will. You’re conforming to the will of wierwille. You’re making choices based on the agenda and options the cult-leader has laid out for you.

~ ~ ~ ~

About 6 months after I left TWI, while developing a list identifying the doctrinal and practical issues (after dusting off 12 years of ignored red flags I had sensed      ) in TWI,  I read a thought- provoking book  Decision Making and the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View by Garry Friesen, J. Robin Maxson (note this is a 2004 edition, the one I bought was a 1980 edition   ). To whet your appetite, you might like my brief notes on another thread about God’s sovereign will vs God’s moral will – click here > my post Feb 10th 2023 4:22 PM God's sovereign will vs moral will . This and another book  Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt were extremely helpful in the effort to extricate myself from the wierwille-centric decision-making process and the delusion of magical thinking.

5 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Rapture or no we are likely to endure hard times and persecution in the near future. Scripture promises all who live godly will endure persecution on one level or another. I think you are a wise man either way. Like I say it took a lot of reading, studying, praying, meditating to get where I'm utterly convinced. Take your time and enjoy the process. I have plenty of other topics that I'm still working through and enjoying the process as wel, so it's just a fun part of us growing up into Christ  love the discourse...I'll likely respond in more detail later cause...I'm doing some hardcore chilling atm...I'll be around a lil later.

Yeah, I'm with you on we're likely to endure hard times and persecution - figuring out what that encompasses is the challenge !

This stuff is one of my study projects too.

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

Well, just my thinking here based on a few scriptures that I will draw from. So, the great mystery is the body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles gathered and presented to God as one new man, and individually we give account and receive reward or suffer shame and loss depending on what we've done. Judgement is starts at the house of God and that's us. So, the rapture is taking us to the bema and to be forevermore changed. On earth the tribulation starts. When Christ comes to fight Armageddon we are with him and we help with his 1000 year reign. First thing happens at Christs 2nd coming (vs his previous appearing in the air) after beast, false prophet, etc are destroyed is the ressurecction of the just. Just a few thoughts. Please compare to scripture and lets go ahead and get out the demolition tools and see what happens...

I would like oi explore more details on how much of a time span - if any - between dead in Christ raised / alive are changed and then Christ coming to fight Armageddon. Is it just moments...seconds apart? in other words - believers are snatched up to be with Christ as He is descending to kick bu++ ? In essence that would be a one-stage return - or if we want to get nitpicky in nanoseconds - it's a two-stage that: rally the troops up from the Earth - army staging area is in the clouds - then we turn around and come back with commander-in-chief Christ. 

 

I've narrowed my focus to see if Scripture supports a one-stage or two-stage return of Christ.

The pretribulation argument that there are 'two phases' to Christ's coming (a rapture and a later second advent)^[28] runs into difficulties with Acts 1:11, which nearly equates Christ's ascension to heaven with his second coming. Logically, the second coming cannot have two phases if the ascension only had one. This eliminates two phases of his coming with a 7-year interval. Likewise, heaven must "receive" or contain Jesus "until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from ancient time". Most scholars see this "restoration of all things" as the one-thousand year reign of Christ on earth (as prophesied in the Old Testament) which begins just after the second advent. If Christ is to remain in heaven until this coming rule of his according to these verses (see also Hebrews 9:27,28), it would seem the next main prophetic event would be the second coming rather than him coming 7 years prior to get the church, bring them back to heaven, and then leaving heaven for earth again as the pre-tribulation rapture position indicates.

Pre-tribulation usage of Luke 17 can also be counterbalanced. In this eschatological scenario, Luke 17:37 explains what happens to the people that are "taken": the eagles gather together at their [dead] bodies. Do they eat them? "Taken" may also have the idea of judgment and that Luke 17:22–37 is referring to the unmistakable visual nature of the second coming. Even the disciples are warned not to believe reports that Christ has come if they have not seen it "for just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. Many take the fact that vultures hovering over a dead body is clearly visible from a great distance away to mean that the second coming will be clearly visible and will not be hidden. It seems that Luke 17 can be compared to Revelation 19, which reads that the fowls are invited to a feast—on the flesh of men, small and great, at the Lord's coming.

From: Post-tribulation rapture - Wikipedia

 

~ ~ ~ ~

Does the Bible clearly teach the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture, or a two-stage return of Christ? Probably the best answer to these questions is “not really.” Nevertheless, many faithful Bible-believing Christians hold to the view the church will be removed prior to or during the tribulation to spare them from the wrath of God. Their view is supported by a number of biblical and theological arguments that do have merit.

However, if the two-stage return of Christ and rapture can only be substantiated by the theological system and hermeneutical practice of traditional dispensationalism, then there is a case for reasonable doubt.

On the other hand, there are ample historical, theological, and biblical reasons to view the seconding coming of Christ as a singular event instead of divided into two-stages. The notion of a two-stage return is not explicitly taught in scripture and is a relatively new doctrine in Christian theology.

What is more, the doctrine of the resurrection of believers and the transformation to a glorified body is well established in Christian theology, but has often been replaced with a rapture theology that may minimize the great hope of a future bodily resurrection. Regardless of what one believes about the rapture or its timing, it is not a matter of orthodoxy and heresy if believers disagree. A person’s fidelity to Christ and theological orthodoxy does not depend on belief in a two-stage return of Christ or a singular return. When Christ returns and the church is with him in glory, nobody will be disappointed or argue about how or when it all occurred.

From: The Rapture Question - The Gospel Coalition

 

 

~ ~ ~ ~

And for good measure, thought I’d use Arlo Guthrie’s visual aid by throwing in a few pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one:

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

It's not beyond our knowledge, perhaps beyond our understanding as to what these events actually will mean or be like, but we do know about the various events from scripture.

As to what folks should do? For me, I stake my life on scripture. 

 

Exactly !

My query was more along the lines of an open-ended question . I said the rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control , going forward - how should folks proceed?   

Your answer is perfect and I would say that goes ditto for me!

For me the question is:  to rapture or not to rapture? 

 

Since I’m not sure which way things will go, I feel the appropriate thing to do is to get into contingency planning. Contingency plans are usually developed to explore and prepare for any eventuality.

 

To me Proverbs 27:12 speaks about contingency planning, because it speaks about someone who tries to predict possible worst case scenarios and will make plans to avoid a catastrophic failure (death or great harm to self and family, devastating financial ruin, etc.) but the foolish person (a non-planner - someone who doesn’t think ahead and plan) will rush ahead, do whatever’s convenient, and end up paying the penalty. Here are a few different versions – but the idea is the same:

The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NIV

A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences…Proverbs 27:12 NLT

The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it…Proverbs 27:12 ESV

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished…Proverbs 27: 12 KJV

A prudent person sees evil and hides himself; But the naive proceed, and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NASB

A prudent man sees evil and hides himself and avoids it, But the naive [who are easily misled] continue on and are punished [by suffering the consequences of sin]…Proverbs 27:12 Amplified

~ ~ ~ ~

One interesting article I found - What Is A Contingency Plan & How Do You Create One? – Forbes Advisor has some good ideas that one could apply to the issue  to rapture or not to rapture?  - Grease Spotters might enjoy reading the whole article – one key concept is this excerpt:

Contingency Planning vs. Crisis Management

Contingency planning is the process of creating a backup plan or several possible plans. This differs from crisis management, which is the actual response to a crisis. The actual response often utilizes one of the contingency plans created but addresses the incident in real time.

End of excerpt

~ ~ ~ ~

Maybe similar to your answer I am absolutely convinced I  should  respond to all situations in life in a manner that pleases God and honors Jesus Christ. However, being the frail human that I am, knowing how I’ve failed before – many times – means there’s the possibility I could chicken-out in a pinch yet to come.

 

That being said – I do what I can preparation-wise that could mitigate certain worse case scenarios. And being a follower of Jesus Christ I tend to be morally responsible and legal in my managing. Some of that can pivot either way to handling rapture or end times stuff.

For example: I legally own several firearms – I like to target shoot and plink – and hope I never have to use them to defend myself and family from a home-invasion.

If the rapture happens – and I get snatched , I hope all my earthly possessions – firearms, survival handbooks, emergency supplies, vehicle, home, books / study Bibles / extensive library of resources will fall into the right hands – hopefully people who God already knows will put those things to good use for His Glory and the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If on the other hand I am not snatched or there is no such thing as the rapture then I am somewhat geared up for end times stuff and I’m willing to share and serve. 

 

5 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Gal 1:12

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 2:3

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

 

All I have to offer is clear scripture on the subject. Personally, I believe what is written over commentaries, scholars, experts, intellectuals, etc.

It looks to me that Paul is referring to “the gospel “:

1I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.…Galatians 1:11,12

 

I don’t see how the idea of the rapture should be included in “the gospel” Paul received by revelation and preached. It seems to me you’re packing more content into “the gospel “ than what was intended by Paul.

I think you’re correct to focus on clear Scripture rather than being swayed by commentaries, experts, etc..let’s apply that to defining “the gospel”. What is included in that? 

Here’s how Jesus described the gospel in Matthew 28:18-20,: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.”

Something he repeated again in Acts 1: 6 - 8.

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

In Romans 1:16, 17 it looks to me like Paul is adhering to the same specific mandate that Jesus gave:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is God’s saving power for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith, as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.”

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

In II Thessalonians Paul warns believers not to be deceived and mentions a departure and the man of sin revealed. If you compare the motifs that Jesus moved through in Matthew 24 NIV

Paul echoes them in II Thessalonians 2 NIV

Both passages use Greek word for “coming”

Both passages mention gathering of God’s people at the end

Both passages mention lawlessness / rebellion / falling from faith

Both passages mention abomination in the temple

Both passages mention false prophets, false signs and wonders

~ ~ ~ ~ 

My point is II Thessalonians 2 does NOT appear to be any new revelations about the 2nd coming of Christ - but rather it’s a reiteration of what Jesus said.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

I respect your opinion and personally I prefer the rapture scenario over going through end times - cuz I’m a scaredy cat   . And I acknowledge I’m just explaining my opinion too. Scripture-wise I don’t think the rapture concept is that clear or solid compared to the basics of Christianity - the gospel message.

 

I always enjoy the Socratic method. This stuff is especially cool to explore! The biggest issue on this is to ask are there any practical concerns I should think about. That’s why I ended my previous post by saying:

 

The rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control. Going forward - how should folks proceed? It’s a serious question!

On 4/15/2023 at 1:13 PM, OldSkool said:

There are some who feel they can force God's hand to bring about end times events. This goes for extreme political zionists as well as extreme far right evangelicals.

 

On 4/18/2023 at 2:44 PM, Rocky said:

Me personally, I think it's silly to try to pin down a general term like that to anything specific simply to justify an interpretation of another cultish social control mechanism.

 

 

On 4/18/2023 at 3:15 PM, waysider said:

Usually, when you see the word "generation", it's referring to a chronological period that encompasses the time between when a child is born and the time when they reach adulthood and/or childbearing years. There's no ironclad number of years that may involve, but, generally, you can assume it's about 20-30 years. The real question is when to begin counting the start of a generation. The Baby Boomer Generation, for example, can be used to refer to people born between 1946 and 1964. So, there's an 18 year window in which to apply that designation. Is it as clear as mud now?

 

On 4/18/2023 at 6:15 PM, Charity said:

My point in asking about this is why did Jesus not mention what Paul revealed by revelation in 1 Thess 4:16-17 about the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ rising first...why did Jesus not mention this when talking about the events of the end times in Matthew 24? 

If it was because it was not revealed to Jesus until after his ascension which he then later passed onto Paul, it might touch on your question from an earlier post about"the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?"

 

On 4/18/2023 at 6:31 PM, OldSkool said:

Yes. God gave the great mystery to Jesus Christ who taught it to Paul. The gahering, rapture, whatever..is a mystery within a mystery.

 

On 4/18/2023 at 7:40 PM, Charity said:

So that would explain why Jesus didn't mention it in Matthew 24 with all the other end time events.  Thanks OldSkool. 

 

On 4/19/2023 at 5:42 AM, OldSkool said:

Which is where a lot of the confusion comes in because various theologies don't respect the sign posts in scripture so to speak. Then theres the thing with Christianity believing that Jesus is God the Son and all knowing like God Almighty. While, Christ has been elevated, glorfied into something I don't comprehend at this time, he is part of the Godhead...whatever that is, I do not think he is God though. Same ole reasons: Christ was tempted with evil, isn't all knowing, scripture calls him a man, etc. But I do think there is a lot more to understand about his divine nature coming from God, etc.

The problem I  with that is I don’t see the sequence in Scripture of God revealing the rapture to Christ - then Christ tells Paul. 

 

Seems to me some folks are assuming or inserting an event that might not belong where they say it does - or that it’s even a thing…makes me think of Darby/Bullinger/wierwille stuff on there being -what is it supposed to be - 7 administrations…I used to believe there was  following wierwille jumping all over the place to explain it…I don’t think the Bible works that way.

 

Maybe the rapture was not mentioned in Matthew 24 because it’s a modern misconception. How do we know Paul, John and other apostles thought there is supposed to be a rapture before end times events?

 

Signposts are supposed to be clear signals of direction or of something up ahead. I suggest there’s confusion - but not because certain folks don’t respect the signposts - maybe it’s because the signposts are not as definitively clear as we’d like them to be.

 

I’ve lost count of the commentaries and study Bibles on book of Revelation I’ve studied. There’s quite a variety of opinion on the who what when where and how of end times stuff.

 

What if the rapture - or the end times doesn’t start for another 2,000 years?

 

The rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control. Going forward - how should folks proceed? It’s a serious question!