T-Bone

52 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

I wish you could have put that a little differently.  I felt insulted a little, but I'll try to work with the kernel of what you seem to be asking ,and think no evil.

 

 

My impression of VPW’s Moody stuff is that it came early in his career, like in the 1940s, before he knew enough to SIT in 1953.   The guy was searching EVERYWHERE, and I have several reasons for thinking that. 

 

 

After 1953 he was on a roll and teaching others and that had to compete with than searching.  My impression is that Moody did not teach SIT except that it ceased.

 

 

Maybe you got a sense that I knew him from the fact that I too was searching EVERYWHERE, so I can relate well to him there. 

 

 

I asked questions of all sorts of people when I was checking out the hooky pook fields before PFAL, and I tried to punch holes in clouds with my mind and talk to plants with polygraphs.  I could write an entertaining book of my crazy searching, and serious searching.

 

 

After PFAL I asked all sorts people questions in TWI both about Bible and ministry history.  My landlord edited the PFAL book for Dr and I spent MANY hours drilling him with questions about that.  What kind of interactions did VPW have in the editing were often my focus.  I asked these same kinds of questions about editing VPW of my friend at HQ, David Craley, who edited the Way Mag then.

So, as I learned VPW's history from WLIL and MANY other places like "Light Began to Dawn," I built a timeline in my head of his life.   I build timelines all the time that way, and I do it on paper, and I now do it digitally.  I have timelines of things I am thankful for in my life.  I have timelines of all the Jr High top 40s songs I loved as a teen and the months they were on the charts and radio.  I just slowly built one of VPW’s life, the things that mattered to me in his search and then his reaching out.

 

 

I just figured in the 1940s his searching was all over the map, like mine.  When he found SIT, he dropped all the irons he had cooking in the fire, and concentrated on that. I did exactly the same thing in my life.  Yeah, in that sense I knew him.

 

 

Oddly, when I started work at HQ in 1976, that principle  {{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}}  set in and my admiration and trust of him went down.   There are lots of reasons that is in the Word, and it surely happened to me.  (I only spotted this in hindsight years later.)

 

 

Then, when I left HQ in 1978 my respect for him went up again.

 

 

Then in late 1982, I could hear on the SNTs that he had a stroke from his drawn out letter "s" pronunciations.  And I figured he was over the hill and freshly installed LCM was going to be my admired leader from then on. Respect for VPW and his current ‘82 teachings went down.

 

 

Then in 1983 to 85 my respect for VPW went up again as I listened to a few his tapes and also saw the Corps fast developing Nazi like attitudes and tactics (like "Follow me or you are doomed.") and LCM was getting pretty intense.

 

 

Then in July 1987 it went down, way down, when I saw the John Schoenheit paper for the first time, and respect for the Board of Trustees along with VPW went to near zero for trying to suppress that much needed paper.

 

 

Then in 1988 my respect went up a little for VPW a few notches, or at least for his pre-1968 ministry that produced the film class.  This was in the days before I latched onto the collaterals, which was 10 years later. But in 1988 I thought the collaterals were more like mere souvenirs of the film class. The reason for this 1988 climb in respect is I started seeing from the bootleg film class that John Lynn was dead wrong in saying the class dissociated the power of believing from the written promises of God in His Word.  I found MANY places where VPW specifically mentioned that believing really only works for written Bible promises or direct revelation.

 

 

Then the next 10 years my respect drifted all about this way and that, but I got a transcript of the class and was able to find things in it VERY FAST for the first time. I slowly started checking my memory and other people’s memory of the class and found out we were VERY deficient. My humility slowly went up, and my respect for VPW slowly went up.

 

 

Then in 1998 someone showed me some things I missed in the collaterals and things changed rapidly as I reviewed the thrilling introduction to the Bible they gave me in the early 1970s.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

So, with all these ups and downs, I was constantly RE-EVALUATING what I knew about him, and from many perspectives, sometimes great respect and sometimes disgust, and all the shades (and colors) in between.

 

 

I think most of you folks went through the VERY EXCITING ride up to respect VPW, and then coasted horizontal and boring for a while like an on a carnival ride, and then SNAPPING downward to crash on the ground of zero respect, and continuing on, burrowing through the Earth to levels of anti-idol disrespect.

 

 

I think I got to know him MUCH better, so I can see why you say that part.

 

 

I suspect that you suspect that I was nearly always up high on that same carnival ride you were on, but no.   I was on the up and down roller coaster that had many cycles, but never a ground penetrating crash.

 

 

Yeah, I think I did get to know him, but it was not as an idol at all.  I still think he blew it on lots of things in my maturity now.  After 1998 things got very simple and I studied the collaterals ONLY until 2018.

 

 

My respect for VPW was never the creepy type you probably suspect. 

 

 

It was fine-tuned and tempered to be balanced and with careful weighing of facts from all sides and directions, and many times.

 

 

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Mike said:

Please read my posts a little more carefully. 

I did actually include that possibility, but I used the word "borrow."

I know in my searching days, little transgressions like this were very possible. I was a gumshoe on a shoestring budget. But I never went so far as to kick a holy roller in the a$$.

 

41 minutes ago, Mike said:

You are forgetting the focus here. 

We are investigating T-Bone's investigation, remember?

I think it was shoddy and proved NOTHING, because he pretty much assumed what he ended up proving to himself, and to some others who applied zero critical thinking skills in trying to bust one sentence in WLIL. 

Always the same run around by Mike to blame-shift and  cut his idol some slack

It can’t be wierwille’s fault - even though he created the corps program and ran it with a tight fist! You weren’t allowed to fart at corps night unless you could show line by line from PFAL, what’s available, how to receive it and what to do with it after you’ve farted it. 

But don’t take my word for it - I only was in the way corps - so what do I know? Mike has actually NEVER BEEN in the way corps so believe him for sure!

True confession time: don’t listen to me as I go on and on about wierwille’s plagiarism and shoddy research skills . I could probably write 100 books on 100 of wierwille’s most hyped up bull-$hit from PFAL — don’t worry I’ll spare everyone the expense of buying my books of looooooong.  zzzzZZZ  ZZzzzz dissertations with proper attribution - you can read it for free - subscribe to the Why PFAL sucks thread now - operators who operate all nine phone lines all the time are standing by! But don’t waste you time looking into the fatal errors and logical fallacies in wierwille’s theology that Grease Spotters have pointed out.  You should listen to Mike who looked into all this stuff before wierwille even learned to copy Johnny Jump Up’s theme paper in the 5th grade . 

Be smart listen to Mike! He knows all ! I wish I met Mike before I joined TWI then he would’ve helped me stay the course. He alone remained faithful to a plagiarizing-drunken-son-of-a-bi+ch-sexual-Predator-berating-self-inflating-ego-on-a-100-foot-pedestal-with-delusions-of-grandeur! Mike has stayed faithful to wierwille through thick and thin hijackings and pirating. Unlike those pesky Snappers - Mike has absorbed every single drop of wierwille’s Kool-Aid, made it his own - 2nd generation plagiarist - and then took it to some next level bull-$hit. Why did I even go int the corps ? Why did I even call Moody correspondence registrar’s office? I should have just believed Mike. In the beginning there was wierwille’s turd. And the turd become Mike’s god. And the turd was god. Happy is he that flusheth not the turd that wierwille $hitteth.

7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Wow! That image is some powerful evidence!

That’s what I learned in PFAL. Search for evidence that fits. A photograph, a drawing, a daydream. Whatever works to MAKE it fit.

I just knew one day someone would find an illustration like this. That settles it.

Well done, T-Bone! 427 Unpainted Arizona points for you. Treat yourself to a cookie.

Yahoo – I’m going to    Mar-a-Lago     Disneyland !!!!!!

7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I can’t say any of these recent posts are off topic, considering the tags I attached to the top of the thread.

Carry on, but be careful not to step on the kitten. 

yeah thanks for the reminder

New biblical research found there were over 60 others crucified with Jesus Christ.

Documentation will be added in PFAL Today

note there were several Jesus lookalikes in the mix 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

You are missing something here.

He could have purchased some courses, then got from them everything he could learn or wanted to learn, or even finished the work, but never sent the work in for credit. 

I can't see him caring much to get the credit or being graded.   I think he wanted the learning, and that is the context of his words in WLIL.

oh you'd love to get your beloved idol off the hook wouldn't you Mike.

wierwille did NOT care about LEARNING ANYTHING !!!!!!!!

he WANTED - WANTED - WANTED - THE FVCKING CREDIT,  dum dum Mike, you know it's true - wierwille was a shyster - a con man!!!!!

That's why he PLAGIARIZED the work of others - that's why he got a fake doctor's degree - he wants the credit but doesn't want to do the work...him claiming he took everything that Moody had to offer through  correspondence  courses - fits perfectly with his modus operandi   - he took the easiest route - a dishonest shortcut actually - deciding  to claim   he took correspondence courses  - who would think to check on that one?

oh, the absurdity in your wierwille-defending-endeavors!       You so funny Mike        - this is some of that new comedy therapy, right?

taking a little breather from your fruitless attempts to push God's budgetary bugaboos?  Somebody please show this clown the double doors. 

where will he show up next?

The Absent Christ thread?

The NT canon thread?

Where’s   Waldo    Mike ?

Finding   Nemo   Mike ?

good luck!

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

"I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses."

How are we to interpret the word "could" here?
I can think of two.

1 - All the classes Moody offered

2 - All the classes he had time for

 

Yeah....

Does the word "could" refer to the Moody ability to send classes.

Or does the word "could" refer to VPW's ability to make time for classes?

 

doesn't matter dum dum - Moody says he never completed a class.

how about all the folks who signed up and started to take PFAL - but then dropped out. Are they considered grads? Probably in your mysterious logic you'll figure a way to make them grads. whatever captain atom smasher !    

48 minutes ago, Mike said:

I'd like to feed that Moody investigation into ChatGPT and see if can come up with more interpretations of the sentence of VPW's under investigation.

I already did ask ChatGPT the mirror riddle one day and it spit out the normal bland incomplete answer, that happens to be the most popular, short, simple answer on the internet.

The next day I asked it if it remembered our conversation the day before about mirrors and it said yes, and went on to summarize what we talked about.  Every point and every sentence bore zero resemblance to anything we said.  It was a total confabulation.

why not feed your bull-$hit into the superficial intelligence I bet it will come out more bull-$hitier. 

The input hole is around the corner where the sun don't shine. might have to give it a good little shove to reach the 7th planet from the sunshine. 

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

You have lots of confidence in your investigation, but you seem to be overlooking something.

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

First, though, I want to ask you how many proPFAL people from the old days did you show your investigation to?  Any at all?  I mean where they would really give you their best proPFAL of proTWI opinion on the soundness of your investigation.  I mean face friends who were still friendly with in your days between leaving and GreaseSpot.

oh goodness yes - to all my brothers and sisters in Family 11 way corps...fell on deaf ears...at the time my wife and I were the ONLY ones who left in 1986. Have dialoged by mail and phone with a few of our closest friends - only 1 couple remained our friends - but they stuck with TWI and only left when they wanted to buy a home and of course upper leadership said out of the question.

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Have Oldiesman or Johniam given you a run for the money here on this investigation?

Surely you jest, Mike.

I've first posted that letter from Moody shortly after I joined Grease Spot - brought it up many times over the years on different threads. They've had lots of time to challenge the evidence. what do you think they  OR you are going to say or show to disprove hard evidence.

you make me laugh at your childish attempts to defend wierwille- your idol.

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

In other words did you only show this to people who were already sympathetic with your conclusion that he lied in WLIL?

see above answer - how many times are you going to repeat yourself?

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Just wondering.

Let’s go back to the beginning of your investigation.  “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.”

What does that phrase mean to you: “took everything I could take” mean to you?

It could mean several things to me.

1 – He registered and completed every class.

2 - He registered and completed every class he had the time to take.

3 – He registered and completed every class he had the money to take.

4 – He registered for some classes but did not complete them.

5 – He borrowed someone else’s class materials and learned from them.

6 – I could go on and on here with all the permutations of the above possibilities in combinations. and maybe another parameter with which to permute.

 

In your investigation were you able to determine which one it was, or a set of several it could be?  Which ones were they?

Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them  – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.”   Note personal pronoun " I " and wierwille quantifies what he took - 'everything" ...so that eliminates your options 1 - 4 !!!!

Eat the evidence pinhead-atom-smasher-wannabe! And don't quit your day job of cleaning windows.

Option 5 is eliminated because wierwille claimed he took the classes from Moody's correspondence courses. That would eliminate the matter of borrowing them from someone else.

Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer?  He made a vague and misleading statement.

You're a goofball Mike - pay attention and read what's written. Your stupid gaslighting techniques don't work on me.

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Just a reminder of some crucial evidence:

June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.

Just a reminder to red what's written - both wierwille's claim in The Way Living in Love: “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses."  

And compare to what Moody registrar’s letter

“This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us.” 

Geez, Mike you get stupider and stupider every day. That's surprisingly contradictory  coming from a guy who claims he predicted AI 25 years ago.

Dream on Klingon

didn't wierwille claim he invented the hook shot?

and did someone here say wierwille claimed to have the idea behind McDonalds?

Probably his best bull-$hit claim is his cover-up of massive plagiarism: 

on page 178 of “The Way Living in Love”    wierwille stated   “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”

On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.” 

4 hours ago, Mike said:

All the news is abuzz these days about A.I. and ChatGPT, and bots. 

I was wondering if anyone noticed that I predicted this buzz in the first chapter of my theory in this thread.

I wish I had polished that chapter before posting it, because I recently went through it with a major edit.  Please pardon my haste if you want to read my predictions at the beginning and the end of that first chapter.

Here is it's location:

Here is the last section of the predictions:

Why talk about Free Will and consciousness? It’s because it’s an emergency!

This topic that I’m analyzing, free will, is not a normal one.  This topic has been in hot debate for thousands of years, but instead of clearing up over the centuries, it has gotten even more out of hand in recent decades.

For 25 years I’ve been anticipating the days we are living in right now with Artificial Intelligence all around us and growing fast. It’s just a short time away and children will be asking adults if robots have feelings or free will. Adults will not know the answers any better than the kids, though. Sermons will be preached on whether God can hear the prayers of a robot… or not. People will feel cheated if they think they are talking to a human, and it turns out to be a robot.  This can even lead to violent situations, if you consider the cognitive dissonance I mentioned earlier.

We are heading for a cultural crunch that will be very confusing to everyone. Even Robots’ Rights may become a real political force at some point.  I am personally against this, but it looks like many could want it.

In addition to these unique scientific advancements in machinery, is the strange situation that EVEN SCIENTISTS have pretty much no idea what is really going on in the area of free will, neither in humans, nor in animals, nor in machines.

The top intellectuals of our culture have no firm consensus on whether we even have any such freedom. The best they can offer is that classical FW does not actually exist. They analyze endlessly on whether we should (or should not) assign credit or blame in human behavior, if we are all automatons like robots.

I wonder how many folks anticipated the revealing power of an internet-based website like Grease Spot Café, exposing the dark underbelly of a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International.

I’m kind of proud of my amateur investigative ability – which was energized by a reawakening of cognitive skills, when I left in 1986 from having a strong sense of disillusionment because of the failure of wierwille / Craig / TWI / the way corps program and WOW program to fulfill declared goals. There was also the constant accumulation of red flags when I observed inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represented.

In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences:

“I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.

And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.”

end of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

When my wife and I left TWI in ’86 – it was a time for a  lot of soul-searching for both of us. I didn’t know what I was attempting to do.  I didn’t know much at the time but as I think of it now peeling back the disorienting layers of  a pathological liar, an unabashed plagiarist, a megalomaniac, a sexual predator  and an incompetent teacher all rolled into one is a tough job best reserved for professional psychologists .

While checking on some of the details of what wierwille had said about himself in “The Way Living in Love” book, I decided to use a criterion that wierwille himself used at the beginning of the PFAL class. He was reading from   John 10:10    “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly”  - he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy here it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I had found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehood – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything.  

As a matter of fact, I used that as an explanation for why I was putting my relationship with TWI on hold. To upper leadership and all the believers in my area I was clear and concise in expressing the reason for my resignation from any TWI-responsibilities (at the time  my assignment was to oversee all the TWI-fellowships of an area about the size of three mid-sized cities) .  I would often refer to    I Thessalonians 5:21     “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”. 

I focused on what wierwille said about his education. In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a woman’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…the letter reads as follows: 

June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.

Sincerely,
Vivian Ruby 
Registrar’s Office

end of Moody letter

I quoted it here in case the picture below gets lost in cyberspace 

~ ~ ~ ~

You know, Mike for a guy that brags about how he anticipated AI stuff , it seems you’ve got your own WI - - wierwille intelligence – (an OxyContin-moron figure of speech that combines the stupefying opioid-like effect of a cult-leader’s Kool-Aid with the cleverness of a bag of rocks).

~ ~ ~ ~

Mike, turn off your wierwille intelligence system for a moment and for once in your life think for yourself!

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives.  Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior.

No other Christian seminary or school uses this type of imagery, only Wierwille.  So extremist behavior dedicated to him is what he wanted in that program.

Calling it Wierwilles folly is laughable as all of Wierwilles works were folly.

What did he say?  If we lose WOW and the Corps we lose the ministry.

Just like the free volunteers in Jehovahs Witnesses, like the cheap labor in Scientology’s Sea Org, or all the missionaries in the Mormon church, using others at their expense for your benefit is what Wierwille excelled at.  He didn’t even need excellor sessions in trading in peoples flesh and using them he was a natural.

Zealots for the cause is what that term is intended to produce.

And OMG does the Way have more than its share of self centered abusers, mostly Corps and clergy and officers and directors.

19 minutes ago, Mike said:

I know for sure on several occasions he said that he could possibly terminate the Corps, but NOT the WoW program.

I never heard the version you wrote above.

If you ask me the WOW program was a glorified trick to make PFAL grads think it’s biblical - spreading the gospel - but it’s just motivating them to get another PFAL class together…each one reach one new customer- sell them on the greatest con in the world today…always be closing.

if wierwille was genuinely interested in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, I think he should have instructed all his followers to share stuff out of the 4 gospels and how having a genuine dynamic transformative relationship with their Lord Jesus Christ changed their life - - instead of blabbing about the stupid PFAL class .

And the corps program is the mini-wierwille clone factory. “ we have ways of making you stick with PFAL”. Indoctrination on steroids! From the heart of our beloved cult-leader  - - drop-shipped into a living room near you. Shipping charges (corps sponsorship is optional but highly recommended) will redeem blessings 10, 20 and a hundredfold of wadded up counterfeit money. Each one blood-let one.

from the perch of Ambassador One, he soaked up the adoration from his loyal followers - -

the new assistant said to him

"gee, that was a really creepy video you showed us at the pajama party last night"

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Had you been reading my posts for understanding, instead of Gotcha hooks, you would have not posted that.

If I had been reading your posts for understanding, you would have had enough time to read Undertow a 20,000 times over, make a book report with selfie pictures of the shock on your face that wierwille really was a shyster, and circles, arrows and paragraphs on the back of each selfie, and several theme papers including "what I learned from Undertow that convinced me what a wierwille-worshipper I've been",  and "why it took me 15 years, 11 months, 24 days, 19 hours, 58 seconds, and 200 milliseconds to read a 475 page book" and  "The amazing literary structure of Undertow the A-B-C-B-As of escaping a cult", write the screenplay for a film, create a musical and start a line of PFAL action figures - wierwille as the puppet-master - collect all nine all the time.

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I have stated several times that I think the Corps should be called Wierwille's Folly.  You missed understanding that and MANY other times when I said I thought VPW went off the beam with his inventing the Corps the way he did.

you missed understanding that the way corps was created by wierwille based on the material in PFAL...the way corps program sucked because PFAL sucked because material plagiarized by an incompetent shyster who didn't know what he was doing sucks.

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

To verify what VPW had been hearing from God but had not ever found 5-senses  proof. This would give him closure and help him move on to other topics.

wierwille  knew  plagiarizing, lying and sexually molesting women was wrong.

To justify his inner demons telling him it was okay to do whatever his little old sinful heart desired, it would be necessary to be the best hypocrite he could be – and that meant teaching his followers to obey the moral dictates of the Bible – while he did as he full pleased.

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

Why are you all so impatient that I finish Undertow?

The ending was pretty much spoiled by all the discussion here. I pretty well know what wall she ran into in the Research Dept and how befuddling it must have been to her.   It befuddled me too.  I ran into that wall around 1977, almost 10 years before she did.   I pondered it for years and finally saw the answer.

The Research Dept was never set up to use 5-senses methods to discover truths that were mangled and hidden by the devil  2000 years ago.  That is a foolish goal for 5-senses researching, in that it tries to match wits with the devil.  You need lots of power to do that, more than 5-senses can provide.

The research dept was set up for several other reasons.  I made a list one day, but it is eluding me at the moment, so I'll try and remember some now.

Why are you all so impatient that I finish Undertow?

The ending was pretty much spoiled by all the discussion here. I pretty well know what wall she ran into in the Research Dept and how befuddling it must have been to her.   It befuddled me too.  I ran into that wall around 1977, almost 10 years before she did.   I pondered it for years and finally saw the answer.

The Research Dept was never set up to use 5-senses methods to discover truths that were mangled and hidden by the devil  2000 years ago.  That is a foolish goal for 5-senses researching, in that it tries to match wits with the devil.  You need lots of power to do that, more than 5-senses can provide.

The research dept was set up for several other reasons.  I made a list one day, but it is eluding me at the moment, so I'll try and remember some now. 

Research Dept GOALS and AIMS

1 – To verify what VPW had been hearing from God but had not ever found 5-senses  proof. This would give him closure and help him move on to other topics.

2 – To find more examples of scripture teaching what was already in PFAL

3 – To help students believe better what they were taught

4 – To help prove things to other Christians who were suspicious of VPW

5 – To help grads in not getting swayed by the erroneous teachings of Churchianity

I am going to search for my list and add to that someday.

Please oh please Mister Grease Spotter kind sir - don't take my idol away  -  -  - - please don't !!!!!!

It's all I've got !!!!!

47 minutes ago, Mike said:

We all are repeat offenders.

You have the authority of the Word on David and Solomon having sin and yet coming back to God in repentance.

You have NOTHING on VPW never repenting except your repeating it over and over for years and hearing others over and over repeating it for years.

Your heart is known only to God.  Aren't you glad about that?
You and no one you know have access to know VPW's heart, ESPECIALLY 38 years after his death. 

You make up false facts about repentance happening or not. Wait for the bema to know that.

what false facts ?!?!?!

you're hilarious, Mike

The Bible said we prove we've repented of sins and turned to God by the way we live - behavior - something that is visible to others - like wierwille plagiarizing the works of others - that's a fact! like sexually molesting way corps women - the victim's testimonies - facts !

don't have to wait for the judgement seat - the verdict is already in for unrepentant sinners who were slaves to life-dominating sins :

New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”...Revelation 21:8

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

Sadly, you favor the advice God gave to his sheep who had no spirit, and dismiss the MUCH better arrangement Jesus bought for us in the new birth.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.  1 John 1:9

Now, after being cleansed this way, THEN some repenting with fruitful new right behavior is the RIGHT THING to do next. It will help in avoiding repeat offenses, and it can help others with trusting the sinner again if they were affected by the sin.

No one can have a power walk with God and do a juggling act with being in and out of fellowship. 

I suspect there were times in VPW's life when he was relatively powerless, compared to his spiritual abilities earlier in his life.  Like David and Saul, the riches of the ministry may have softened him and he was less effective in his later days.  Bouncing back and sticking in sustained fellowship gets harder and harder, the longer the juggling act continues.

I see VPW possibly wasting much of his later years on the Corps, and then trying to fix things in his very last few years.  What he did to make the class and most of the collaterals in those early years tells me he had lots of sustained fellowship in those very early years... and a lot less riches to distract.

sorry Mike - pulling the bogus dispensationalism card doesn't work in this game! 

proving you've repented by how you live appears elsewhere in the NT

New Living Translation
Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

you lose once again at trying to defend a wolf in sheep's clothing

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

It is when they STOP being willfully stubborn and unrepentant long enough to admit TO GOD that they were in sin.

and do you know when wierwille stopped his deplorable behavior?

oh check it out  wierwille's # 1 fan - Scripture says we prove we have repented of our sins and turned to God by the way we live - it's walking the talk, Mike - not talking up a good walk :

Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

Matthew 3:8 NLT

ol' wierwille didn't even try to be a good person!

- - - didn't even try, Mike !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you are to be pitied for loving the $hit out of a dead idol !

What gives?

Why have you invested so much in a wolf in sheep's clothing?

Have a heart - think about all his victims, his wife and kids, the genuine Christians who thought they were following a genuine minister of God.

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

If we confess [admit] our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  (1 John 1:9)

ok if you're speaking about yourself.

no one can speak for wierwille. he be daid.

I  hope for the sake of his eternal soul he repented on his death bed. I wouldn't want to wish the punishment he deserves from the God of justice for all the people he victimized. 

24 minutes ago, Mike said:

We all are repeat offenders.

You have the authority of the Word on David and Solomon having sin and yet coming back to God in repentance.

You have NOTHING on VPW never repenting except your repeating it over and over for years and hearing others over and over repeating it for years.

Your heart is known only to God.  Aren't you glad about that?
You and no one you know have access to know VPW's heart, ESPECIALLY 38 years after his death. 

You make up false facts about repentance happening or not. Wait for the bema to know that.

Nope ! you're wrong - got the goods on wierwille as an unrepentant big time exceeding abundantly above all that inner demons could ask or think  sinner of epic proportions: 

Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

Matthew 3:8 NLT

He proved by the way he lived a grossly depraved lifestyle that he never repented of his sins NOR turned to God.

I covered this in a previous session of your crass budgetary class on bar room double doors.

shame on you for sleeping through that session 

for your penance do a chapter report on something you read in Undertow

if not Mike - who? if not now - when will he do it?

143. You pay to take it the first time – and you must pay goo-gobs in tuition to hear it again as  the  curriculum in the way corps program.

ever wonder what's inside the corps mind?

51 minutes ago, Mike said:

Actually, I believe God does NOT continue to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners, at least not in any profound deep way....  but even then, He seems to be able to find some opportunity, like with Balaam's prophecy.

But we know of no other good things Balaam did.  His relationship with God was very inefficient, and he didn't get much done for God.

Where you and I differ on this is I do not think you have the ability to see a person's heart like God does.    I reject your identifying VPW as being such a willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinner continuously.  There may have been some seasons where he was really out of it like that, and surely the devil took note of it, and constantly reminds everyone of it, creating the impression that he STAYED in that down funk continuously for years.

You cannot know if and when he repented, or how many times.  All you can do is claim to know, over and over for years, until you convince yourself that you are correctly condemning him and all his works.   I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.

 

Gee Mike, I wonder how Mrs. Wierwille and the kids felt about Vic’s persistent depraved behavior.

I wonder how way corps women felt sexually molested by “the teacher” of PFAL / president & founder of TWI / creator of the way corps program.

Mike  , Sorry to be judgmental here - but I think you ought to be ashamed of how calloused you can be defending a creep like wierwille. I think there’s something out of whack with your scale of values - I may be grabbing at straws here but I feel God and Jesus Christ wouldn’t approve of your value system either.

13 minutes ago, Mike said:

Actually, I believe God does NOT continue to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners, at least not in any profound deep way....  but even then, He seems to be able to find some opportunity, like with Balaam's prophecy.

But we know of no other good things Balaam did.  His relationship with God was very inefficient, and he didn't get much done for God.

Where you and I differ on this is I do not think you have the ability to see a person's heart like God does.    I reject your identifying VPW as being such a willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinner continuously.  There may have been some seasons where he was really out of it like that, and surely the devil took note of it, and constantly reminds everyone of it, creating the impression that he STAYED in that down funk continuously for years.

You cannot know if and when he repented, or how many times.  All you can do is claim to know, over and over for years, until you convince yourself that you are correctly condemning him and all his works.   I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.

 

Sure Mike whatever you say  

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, ^a putting them in chains of darkness ^b to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh^c and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from ^d the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. ^e 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, ^f who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”^g and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

iI Peter 2

27 minutes ago, Mike said:

I totally get that and feel similarly.  Less for VPW, because he did say in 1972 (for those carefully listening) that he was a downer an outer like us and NOT a "real deal goodie-goodie."   He admits in one of the collaterals that he was weak.  In 1985 he wrote on his grave's headstone "I wish I were the 'real deal' I know to be."

In 1986 it was the suppression of the MUCH NEEDED Schoenheit paper that disgusted me to the max.   For the next 10 years I had lots of anger toward VPW and all the rest of top leadership.  But I also had a hunch that the real deal for us was the class, and that year I got my first bootleg copy of the videos.  The anger slowly faded as I reviewed all the good things I had heard from him.  Meanwhile LCM and TWI continued to become much worse, at least at the top.  It is wonderful that some cool people survived TWI-2 and TWI-3, and now are trying to do it better. 

I figured that like David and Solomon, VPW had his good days when he walked well enough to help me immensely with the class.  I figured he may have slipped up and gone comparatively inefficient in his later years.  His health reflects this for those years.

I agree things went really bad, but I refuse to throw away the good, and I refuse to follow the bandwagon of hate that seeks to destroy the good, and befuddle many grads in the process, THUS EXTENDING THE BAD beyond the ministry and onto the Internet.

The attempted destruction of PFAL will fail.  It will die when the last poster here dies.  Meanwhile, those grads who can recognize the good will preserve it and pass it on to their families and friends.  Too many people have the videos and the collaterals for PFAL to fade away.  But the exaggerated objections to what is taught in PFAL will fade away to nothing.

 

 

How is that holding onto the good of PFAL been working out for you? 

10 hours ago, Mike said:

That is because you are unwilling to rise up to see that VPW could have been like a Solomon or a David who had sin and when they were in sin they were bad spokesmen, and when they walked with God they were good spokesmen.

Nope - Solomon and David were repentant...wierwille was a repeat-offender of epic proportions !

He was a wolf in sheep's clothing. 

Mike, quick trying to shoehorn your beloved and really tarnished idol into the shoes of a real man of God.

You're being childish...stubborn...ridiculous. 

This is the kind of stuff that trolls do. or fanatical idol worshippers.

10 hours ago, Mike said:

EVERY SINGLE ONE of God's spokesmen blew it in one way or another and God still worked with them when they would listen and obey.

You can thank God He still works with you in spite of you loving SOMETHING more than Him on multiple occasions.

 

Please provide Biblical support for your assertion that God continues to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners.

I'm curious as to what Scriptures you might attempt to twist into your idolatrous support of an unabashed plagiarist, pathological liar, megalomanic, malignant narcissist, drunkard, abuser, mean-spirited, sexual predator. 

9 hours ago, Mike said:

You are one of the Snappers, like Penworks, with black & white thinking only.

You need to get more Biblical and less Hollywood in your expectations of God's servants.  Tell me, have you ever seen a "real deal" since your snap from infatuation to hate?

Why are  you SO unable to dump your childish image of purity, and think of VPW as a real human brother? 

You are obviously not the Hollywood Real Deal yourself, but if you believe in Jesus, he said you are real enough and deal enough to do all that he did and greater.

Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done.

You harbor a silly impossible image, that you expected of VPW, and then go against your commandments from John's First Epistle to love your brother, VPW.  You are as spiritually immature as Penworks was when she was 19 years old falling in love with VPW even before she took the class.

Both falling in love with the real deal, and falling in hate when supposed real deal disappoints are totally shallow immature perspectives.

A walk that is out of fellowship one hour, and then back in fellowship the next hour is certainly no way to have a deep, sustained, trusting, relationship with God, but it is better than nothing. 

I see VPW getting up very soon after his falls, as the Word directs us all. 

Yes, he could have done much better in various seasons and years, had he accomplished more sustained fellowship. It is a tragedy for us all that he failed at times there.

But to our great benefit, he had enough sustained fellowship from 1942 to 1985 to deliver to us the class and the collaterals that bring us to the Word like it has not been known since the First Century.

*/*/*/*/*

You fail at sustained and rich fellowship at times also, YET God is always there when you try again to walk in love and in powerful service to others.

Have you even read the First Epistle of John lately? 

Do you cultivate love in your heart for VPW and are you thankful to God for the great good VPW did accomplish?  Or are you sin oriented, and only able to see sin when you look at his direction?

*/*/*/*/*/*

Have you given up on the real deal being possible?

You should. Be happy with what service does get done for the True God, even if performed by people who fall short of your "real deal" standards.  Include your self in there as a servant to others like Jesus.

There was only one real deal I know of, and that is Jesus Christ.

Mike, my dear Brother we are so close it’s not even funny.

About the only thing I really disagree with you on is your assumption I’m doing black & white thinking or absolute thinking. I used to think that way – but since I left TWI I’ve been working on broadening the spectrum – which gives me a wider range of options to think about and choose from – like this monochromatic value scale:

~ ~ ~ ~

Polarized, black-and-white thinking is a big problem. It distorts our understanding of realities involving shades of gray, which most human realities are. Binary thinking produces misleading maps of a complicated, nuanced world.

When we face difficult situations, all-or-none thinking blinds us to the possibility of a middle ground, leaving us with only simple, extreme options that rarely work. This type of cognition results in maladaptive emotions and behaviors, an array of mental health diagnoses too numerous to mention, and in its milder and more common forms, all sorts of problems in living and relationships.

Everyone engages in black and white thinking sometimes, because it is quicker and easier than careful consideration of a spectrum of possibilities. Problems arise when we rely on it too much, especially in dealing with emotionally important situations, issues and relationships.

Persistent problems in a particular life area suggest that some kind of dichotomous thinking is going on below the surface, driving the ineffective functioning. This is especially true when extreme emotions and/or behaviors occur, because these are the hallmarks of polarized cognition.

From: How to Assess Black-&-White Thinking in Yourself and Others | Psychology Today

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

I am no different than you Mike. I don’t have this Hollywood idea of the Christian lifestyle. I have a realistic idea of the Christian lifestyle. My day-to-day ‘interior’ living is an irregular pattern of switching back and forth between black and white thinking and a monochromatic value scale – but now after being out of TWI for some 37 years, it’s using the monochromatic value scale much more than using black and white thinking.

As an example of before and after in self-examination:

Recapping the extraordinary details of T-Bone’s Exciting Escape from Crazy Town  > TBEEFCT episode whatever first aired 5/04/2023 1:04 AM , remember new episodes drop each time big-wierwille-fans drop the ball, streaming exclusively on Grease Spot TV cue the theme music and text “the more you know”:

1986: I left in 1986 from having a strong sense of disillusionment because of the failure of wierwille / Craig / TWI / the way corps program and WOW program to fulfill declared goals. There was also the constant accumulation of red flags when I observed inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represented. Without realizing it at the time, Mike – I was doing what I always did in TWI – using black and white thinking to judge myself and others. 12 years of ignoring red flags with the last two years of being in-residence way corps to see wierwille and Craig’s darker side, unguarded moments and connecting the dots of sexually molested women who kept a stiff upper lip and get on with the program. Yeah, I was furious. Outraged! How dare these hypocrites demand I walk the talk but not themselves.

1986 – 2023:  Mike, I’m a lot harsher and more judgmental on myself than you will ever know. And I cut everyone a lot more slack than you may think.

What pi$$es me off about how you assume I have an unrealistic ideal of the Christian lifestyle is that I don’t fault wierwille or Craig for being human – but for being pretentious, pontificating behind a double standard. I think very highly of anyone who bravely and honestly admits they have a problem and tries to do something about it. Like an alcoholic joining AA.

I’ve been married some 47 years and have never cheated on my wife. But Jesus doesn’t cut me any slack when He said   But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart…. Matthew 5:28 NIV 

I’m an old fart now and don’t have the drive I used to – and I’m too embarrassed…ashamed…to reveal the times I’ve committed adultery in my heart…

and let me just say my wife satisfies me completely in the 3 types of love (agape, phileo, eros)  - so what can I say in my defense? I used to be a greedy horny little ba$tard.   - but long ago I decided it’s better to please God and honor my Lord Jesus Christ…for me it’s been more of a spiritual battle within than without - now I’m pretty good about heading the temptation off at pass - - so the battle gets easier…so much for letting you in on my sinful nature.. .got better at nipping those thoughts in the bud and I have had and continue to have long talks with close friends – believers usually - on this issue I have. I want to do better.

Mike, these are the comparisons I get into evaluating what I do versus what hypocrites like wierwille, and Craig did. At least I try to do better in watching what I think about and how I interact with women other than my wife  - - and   - - so far in 47 years of marriage - -  I have not consummated my lustful thoughts of another woman which would do even more harm to others – the repercussions of to my wife and kids, to the woman’s life – and if she’s married and has kids, the consequences hit them too.

One last thought. I talked about a love / hate relationship I have with wierwille and Craig on another thread. Folks who use black and white thinking don’t understand how that’s possible. Maybe it’s because they see the love / hate relationship in equal parts – 50% love and 50% hate. I don’t think that’s the way our minds usually work  - or we’d be immobilized by strong and equally contradictory desires – like Robby the Robot in Forbidden Planet. There’s a great scene when his creator demonstrates the safety features built into Robby. See Robby the Robot - laws of robotics scene in Forbidden Planet (1956 film)  - if it doesn’t go directly to the spot it begins at the 1:9-minute mark.

My love / hate relationship with wierwille and Craig is like 20% love and 80% hate. They’re human beings – imperfect, yes – but I admire the good qualities I recognize in them and can relate to them as fellow humans – I don’t paint them up as absolute monsters. The 80% I hate is their unrepentant sinful behavior that earned them the titles of whatever their life-dominating sins were/are – sexual predator, liar, thief, etc.

In good healthy relationships I think the ratio is 90% love of all that is decent, honorable, beneficial to self and others and 10% hate of the sinful nonsense that comes with every human.

On 5/2/2023 at 8:39 PM, Mike said:

VPW said it in the BRC basement that day in 1982, just before PFAL'77.   I was there with at least 100 other people.

Here’s what gets me.

In 1968 PFAL, wierwille gives this overly dramatic story of preaching on the abuse of alcohol. After the sermon, an alcoholic approaches wierwille and complains he came to church that day to find a way out of alcoholism. wierwille’s preaching only pushed him deeper into it. wierwille swears off ever giving another negative sermon on the abuse of alcohol ever again.

I attended  PFAL ’77, and wierwille’s ‘performance’ was so bad and it was for multiple reasons – but one reason that comes to mind is that he was drunk – on stage – for much of his ‘teaching’ time…so maybe he never gave another sermon on the abuse of alcohol  - but evidently, he mastered it - - his life became a living sermon on the abuse of alcohol…remember kids ya gotta know what’s available, know how to receive it, know what to do with it after you’ve got it, blah dee blah blah.

On 5/2/2023 at 8:39 PM, Mike said:

VPW was God's spokesman at the time.

Wouldn’t that be the ultimate-cosmic-mind-fvck if that were true ?!?!

Think what that would mean.

How many thousands of TWI-followers…TWI-clergy…left during that massive exodus in 1986 – many left even before that – the timing isn’t the thing to look at – think about why  they left – not when. think of how many had a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of wierwille / Craig / TWI / the way corps program and all the  other programs to fulfill declared goals. Think of how many saw inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represented. If I had to simplify and sum up why I left in 1986 that would be it.

…Now…

What if Mike’s statement is true?  “VPW was God's spokesman at the time”

I joined TWI in 74 because I thought wierwille was the real deal.

I left in 86 because I realized he was a phony.

Now here I am in 2023 and Mike is saying God was in on the con too.

Well $hit. The Bible doesn’t make sense anymore.

My faith is based on nothing.

I’ve been coming to Grease Spot Café  for some 17 years - arguing with wierwille-worshipping-goofballs over how hypocritical wierwille was – and come to find out from one of these goofballs that God is deceitful too.

$hit.

I feel like an idiot.

I'm thinking there must not be a benevolent righteous deity around who could kick this lying God’s  a$$   -   otherwise the more powerful divine being who I assume would have a bigger budget would have done it already.

Why didn’t wierwille tell me about this in PFAL?

Why did I waste 12 years of my life serving a phony God.

This is very embarrassing.

I wonder how many other Grease Spotters know this.

Maybe I’ll see what those conspiracy theories websites and UFO websites got to say.