sprawled out

All in Good Fun....Right??

not really, EP. you completely dodged my comments. didn't address a thing. seemed incredibly weasel-y to me. honestly, i don't know what the deal is with the ces-defenders who have been coming around lately, but i'm not terribly impressed.

Dude, you are kind of vicious...

Judge not lest ye be judged - an interesting piece of Bible that is often misused and misinterpreted.

Glad that you have an opinion sprawled out...we all have them.

Lots of bitter folks here in GS Land. I understand how that might have happened, but...work to get

over all that crap....time to get out of the mud and move onward and upward !!

God bless !

i'm not vicious or bitter, sam. but i have no patience for judgmental clowns in "christian" clothing. you don't even see it, with that beam in your eye--the smug, self-righteousness. the know-it-all attitude under the veneer of pseudo-humility. i'd feel bad for you, but to be honest, i'm fresh out of compassion for folks like you. (what did jesus call them? oh, yeah--hypocrites.)

so if the object of "mov[ing] onward and upward" is to get to where you are, no thanks.

nice post, rascal! well said!

When I think I have more of the Truth than you (even if I do), but have not yet broken into true humility before God and Jesus (death of self; all I 'have' is a gift; I deserved death but were given life, etc.), but am still prideful about having the Truth, then I think telling you what to do (or even making you do it) is 'help'.

If I have good intentions, and I think I've got the Truth (even if I do), but have not yet broken and become grateful to be a servant, then more telling you what to do is more help.

Since I define it as Help, not Control, today's pop-psychology's mumbo jumbo that manufactures victims who need help can lead me further and further astray until I can become very diligent to be sure I'm 'helping' you as much as possible. All the while my good intentioned-heart has been deceived and I've wandered into calling evil Good, calling control Help, calling witchcraft Love and of course calling law Grace.

Witchcraft can, of course, become demonic, but Galatians lists it as a sin of the flesh--I want my way (ask any 2-year old). When I'm 50 and I'm right, then obviously the best thing for you is to want my way too. And the beat goes on.....

it's interesting, and puzzling, to me that someone could find this a great post. it's nonsense to me. babbling. i guess it's all the code words and concepts i'm not privy to. as an outsider, it looks like you're demeaning one brand of "mumbo-jumbo" with what appears to me to be little more than mumbo-jumbo.

that's not a criticism of either therebut or ductape. just an observation.

NOPE!

the last thing i gave up for lent was "giving up things for lent." :P

i'm really p!ssed you guys never told me about the beer in allen gym. or invited me up to the top floor of the library. i thought i was being reprobate, cutting 10:30 church on sunday mornings!

I'm not meaning to be coy here but, if you soak a baby in bathwater long enough - well there's a lot of baby to be found in that bathwater - and it won't be pretty.

mmmmmm...baby soup!

There are times when you leave the cliches behind and just face facts. My new way of thinking is that as soon as you get man involved in God's plan, man will start trying to change that plan to look more like his own.

I'm more of the opinion that any "church" needs to be a very loose affiliation of people and not a giant organizational money making machine. Ministers should keep their day jobs until they absolutely cannot do both - and really even then they should keep their day jobs.

Whenever you try to set up a "church" you get a cart leading a horse - a lifeless thing leading a living thing. And both will keep bumping into each other.

I'm rambling here. Maybe someone like sprawled or Groucho can make some sense of my insanity.....

Help me out here guys....please

doesn't look like you need any help to me, dooj.

If God has placed His call for ministry into your heart should you "put your heart somewhere else for awhile" without His telling you to?

YES! in part because i don't think these guys even KNOW what's in their hearts. they never stopped to look. they just tumbled from twi into ces and rode the snowball. so YES, i think they should just get out of the "minister" business for a while. if not forever. it's painfully clear that, even with all their experience, and the benefit of all that hindsight, they SUCK at it.

Drat !

and Double Drat !!!

I find myself in the clutches

of the deviously dancing Sprawled Out !!!

Pinned by my own words !!

oh the shame

where is my super power

just when I need it the most

I must escape before I subcome to Anarchy !!

( my mother was afraid this would happen )

hey, EP--can you say "weasel?"

Moving past the doubt and the 'get a job' comment which has been explained here many times (JL and all CES BOD members have other jobs except Mark), be specific...'Clear away old mindsets'...'residual Waybrain'...like what?

like EVERYTHING, gracie. i mean, GET AWAY FROM THE WHOLE THING. stop trying to "move the word," or whatever you call it. get a job--and by that i mean, a vocation other than "the ministry." put your mind, your heart, if you will, someplace else for a while. learn to think outside of the box of what you consider to be "the word." (horrors!) then, after a good long time, come back with a fresh perspective.

i guess i don't really expect you to get it, as simple as it is. the problem is, these guys rolled from twi right into their own thing. and though they thought they were throwing out the bathwater, the truth is, they didn't really know what was bathwater and what was baby. to be honest, neither do you (in my opinion, of course). i know we'd disagree, but much of what's wrong with CES/STFI is painfully obvious to many of us on the outside looking in. and as bright or capable or well-intentioned as those folks (the CES BOD, etc.) are, they just don't get it. and they probably never will.

surely they'd think the same of me, only worse. but there's a huge difference between us: if I'M wrong, i'm not destroying people's lives in the process.

face it, gracie. they have become just another version of twi. only worse. more twisted. somebody should stop them, before they kill again.

i think the 11th should get together and see if we can straighten out JAL's new church. that's what they need now, some of that good old 11th corps "don't-f-with-me" attitude! :D

i think it's mighty hard to separate the baby and the bathwater. if you ask me, bathwater is everywhere in CES/STFI. it's in their organization, their doctrine, their hearts.

and i agree with rascal--start over. BUT this time, take a break. a long, long break. take time to re-adjust mentally, to clear away the old mindsets--starting with the residual waybrain that became the "new" foundation. take a walk. go away. get a job. learn how to think for yourself. then, after a few YEARS, if you still feel the need to (and god willing, you won't), start afresh. AFRESH. re-examine everything. question everything. subject every assumption and conclusion to the harshest possible inspection.

and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn from your mistakes this time.

but i doubt it.

I don't blame them for not talking in this forum. There is too much hateful spew going around, and a lot

of generally over the top commentary.

If people would tone down the gossippy chatter, think before writing, and work toward some real resolution

and peace, and we might get some where. Blessed are the peacemakers, right ?

bite me.

judge not, lest you be judged, right? in MY opinion, it's attitudes like yours that keep us from getting anywhere.

if you can't stand the "over-the-top commentary," get out of the cafe.

and Jesus had a way of slipping away from their clutches when he chose to as well.

"clutches?" your choice of words betrays your prejudice, Esty.

a good rule of thumb:

If your yoke is hard and your burden is heavy,

then perhaps that's an indicator that you're not under the yoke of Jesus Christ

perhaps you should advise the apostle paul. i guess he suffered all those lashings, imprisonment, etc. under some other yoke.

EP, you seem like a nice guy (gal?), but for a deadhead, you're pretty caught up in all the rules and regs of christianity. feels pretty at odds with misfit power. hey, if the Dead were about anything (other than music), it was freedom. or perhaps more precisely, anarchy. why not let it shine, EP?

let it shine.

couldn't they just "mark and avoid" me? or classify me "dropped from active churchgoing?"

mark g soiled his what?

i didn't know that jonny was "special."

NOW i understand...

the brainwashing. and the sex!

oh, and the brainwashing!

they are absolutely upfront about asking for money. my problem is, i have memory (though my long-term is better than my short!), and i remember them saying, in a very early incarnation: "We will never ask anyone for money."

then, of course, they decided it was scriptural to ask. and they haven't stopped for a moment since!

mr. hamm:

to paraphrase one of CES' own pieces of sh--, i mean, "research," Don't Blame Me!

:P

just wanted to provide a place for those who are so inclined to have their humorous (or snide or sarcastic or otherwise non-serious) say on the ever-so-serious matter of the CESTFI lawsuit(s).

sorry, if i can't be too straightfaced about this, folks. i realize there are people involved, and that many have sunk their hearts into this outfit. but from the outside, it's looks like a circus to me. and a circus is funny (except for the clowns).

anyway:

a lawyer, a minister and a prophetess walk into a bar...

Whoa...hold on there sprawled! Assumption alert! And you know what they say about assumptions....

one man's assumptions is another's observation.

Honestly, who are you to assume that I believe I'm "thinking 'spiritually' and [am] therefore right???" Have I ever said as much on this board, or do you just lump me in that category because VPW or CM or JAL or MG, etc, etc, etc have spouted such nonsense? Sorry, but that's not my bag.

who am I? just someone who calls 'em as he sees 'em. honestly, i wasn't so much referring to you. but since you've responded...

Nope, instead I spoke against a blanket generalization (or so it was written, though Hamm has since defined the true target of his comment) with information that I PERSONALLY KNOW to be true. How many DIRECT and PERSONAL experiences of this specific situation do you have, particularly with the people who just went back to work for CES/STF? Let me know.

i have direct and personal experience with what's been written here. that's what i was commenting on. as for my experience with CES, i was around at the beginning. and saw enough to know, even then, which way the wind was blowing.

In fact, all of my posts here at GSC have been to respond to blanket generalizations/accusations which I know (from personal experience) to be false. Have I made any claim that CES/STF is God's chosen ministry, that it's perfect, that it's "leaders" are infallible Men/Women of God and should therefore be followed like the pied piper??? Nope! If you must know, I definitely feel like the proverbial scales have been lifted from my eyes since this topic opened up, and I'm willing hold to account anyone (including myself) who needs to be. Like many of you, I am praying that God's light will shine on and expose EVERY bit of evil, and I'm waiting to see what will come of all of this.

good for you! but unlike you, all i'm hoping for is for it to go away.

And finally, my ONLY "religious allegiance" is to God and Jesus Christ. Period. I swear allegiance to no man or ministry.

finally is right! keep 'em flyin'! :D

you guys can cut them slack because of potential legal ramifications all you want. but i think they should be held to a higher standard.

i also think your religious allegiance has affected your ability to think objectively. what's worse, you think you're thinking "spiritually" and are therefore right. and that, my friends, is why you can't really see the problem. ("we have met the enemy, and he is us!")

CES/STFI has made a lot of mistakes, but I don't see their involvement with Momentus as a mistake. IMHO.

you're mistaken, IMHO.

so where's that letter? can somebody post it?

Everyone wants to be your friend until they decide they don't like you.

not everyone, lumpy. i never wanted to be your friend.