Twinky

Coming so closely after PoP, I suspect the publication of these books was due to a combination of idolatry (VP worship) and ego (to which CG was not a stranger). Coat-tailing, if you like.

Good stuff, Belle.

Not surprised at some of the names, but others it surprises and saddens me to see. I knew them as lovely fun and tender people.

Just fishin' to see what's out there... not much.

I think this great sense of humor must have about disappeared by the time I got to rez. He could be jolly but it was a sort of "eggshell humor" - always wary about what might be coming next.

Okay, anybody got anything else to add?

Pink, just found this thread - but you know what I think :) !

Remember GOD WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU.

You have such a great support group here in the Cafe!

Hey, I was just saying what Jo-hn Re-nolds had said to me, and his reaction to it. One of those red flag moments but you don't like to enquire further...

And as I said, I don't think JR was speaking of himself but echoing what had come down from L-M.

White Dove: sounds as though you actually have one or more of these books, is this

Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus

Victor Paul Wierwille

edited posthumously by

Christopher C. Geer

what it says in the flyleaf? which is, of course, completely accurate.

Waysider: LOL!

Nah, having M&A'd too many tender hearted people, they're trying a new tack with whoever is left (and still tender). They're going to eat them (LOL)

HCW:

What an experience that must have been! (LOL)

How come they didn't recognise you and sue you for trespassing? Nobody there who recognized you?

What are they doing with all that modern technology, anyway?

Time for a change of pace, perhaps…

We all have our horror stories about LCM. I wondered if there were any good things to be said, practical advice given that was sound and worth following.

On a cold morning recently, I was wiping the heavy condensation off my car prior to going to work. I was reminded of a cold morning at HQ – well, it was probably a winter lunchtime – when LCM started going on about people clearing off their cars in winter. He wanted the front and back windscreens of vehicles completely cleared of snow and ice before those vehicles were driven, not just a little hole cleared in the front to peer through (don’t remember him mentioning the front side windows, but the same would apply).

This was coupled with a threat that anyone found not clearing their windscreens would be instantly dismissed from the campus.

I happen to think that he was absolutely right on this occasion, especially in view of the large number of pedestrians that could be found at certain times of the day in and around the grounds.

Yes, it was just "common sense" and no special revelation needed, but lots of people did not (and still do not) do such simple things (you in TX don't have the need!) and clearly people needed to be told or reminded.

Not starting a fan club here, but does anyone want to add any other genuinely useful advice?

Getting sucked into my local library this afternoon (a common occurrence) I found a well-borrowed 400 page book entitled, “The Trinity – True or False?” by a couple of guys who say in their foreword that “neither [of them] … lay claim to any biblical “scholarship” and their only qualification for this task is a lifetime’s regard for and study of scripture and a desire that its teaching should be correctly understood. In the use and meaning of original Greek and Hebrew words, we have had to rely heavily on standard works of reference…

“As far as the division of labour is concerned, chapters 4,5,7 and part of 3 are the work of xxx and the balance is that of the co-author yyy…

“Our thanks are due to several of our fellow Bible students to whom we showed the early drafts, and who made many helpful comments and suggestions.”

There is more of this humble approach, acknowledging contributions of others.

The back of the book contains lots of scripture references; a bibliography with all works studied; a history/development of the trinity, and other helpful stuff.

Just reading the foreword and the very last para, it appears their conclusions are that JCNG.

I obviously haven’t read it yet but liked the way they “set out their cart” and announced their antecedents right at the beginning – no pretending to be a research ministry or that they had qualifications in ancient languages; and they acknowledge the help given by others and their sources. Not having my copy of JCNG available, I can’t recall what that contains, but it certainly wasn’t this forthcoming about its basis. Rather, that one is: This is it so just believe it.

It will be interesting to see how these guys get to where they end up, and how they deal with certain scriptures. More on this later, perhaps.

Getting sucked into my local library this afternoon (a common occurrence) I found a well-borrowed 400 page book entitled, “The Trinity – True or False?” by a couple of guys who say in their foreword that “neither [of them] … lay claim to any biblical “scholarship” and their only qualification for this task is a lifetime’s regard for and study of scripture and a desire that its teaching should be correctly understood. In the use and meaning of original Greek and Hebrew words, we have had to rely heavily on standard works of reference…

“As far as the division of labour is concerned, chapters 4,5,7 and part of 3 are the work of xxx and the balance is that of the co-author yyy…

“Our thanks are due to several of our fellow Bible students to whom we showed the early drafts, and who made many helpful comments and suggestions.”

There is more of this humble approach, acknowledging contributions of others.

The back of the book contains lots of scripture references; a bibliography with all works studied; a history/development of the trinity, and other helpful stuff. It is footnoted throughout with scripture references and references to works that the authors considered.

Just reading the foreword and the very last para, it appears their conclusions are that JCNG.

I obviously haven’t read it yet but liked the way they “set out their cart” and announced their antecedents right at the beginning – no pretending to be a research ministry or that they had qualifications in ancient languages; and they acknowledge the help given by others and their sources. Not having my copy of JCNG available, I can’t recall what that contains, but it certainly wasn’t this forthcoming about its basis. Rather, that one is: This is it so just believe it.

It will be interesting to see how these guys get to where they end up, and how they deal with certain scriptures. More on this later, perhaps.

Be patient, the removal of Waybrain affects us all differently ...

Though it would be useful for God to have something to work with to reconstruct.

Dang, you should have gone after him. Would have filled your freezer for a year.

Ed Horney would have loved the roadkill. (Well after several months he told us to stop the roadkill jokes.)

Seriously - glad you weren't hurt. Lots of good advice here. Locally, in deer areas there is a speed limit off 40 mph which it seems I alone observe.

Good post, Roy, everything you wrote could apply to me, ten years in, ten years out and only just beginning to heal I agree with what you said except for:

The truth is we are losing this war because the Way Ministry is destroying lives faster than we can work to give then the med’s of hope that there is life outside the Way Ministry.

because they surely are not recruiting in the numbers they did, GSC membership is expanding and ex TWIers are fleeing to the "membersip" of other groups, churches of all sorts, etc, only some of whom post here. TWI will die off from natural attrition.

...who then will own the cornfields??

Hey, should GSC make an offer? Cafe in the OSC, anyone?

Hi Pete. Makes more sense if they were still (partly) alive before the rest of the torture. Guess I got the watered down version. Truly gruesome.

Linda: the quarters were sent to parts N, S, E and W as a warning to other dissidents. I have a feeling that there were occasions when something similar happened in Biblical times.

Nice to know there is some compassion in these little religious cults... (ouch)

DMiller’s explanation is good, but what’s kinda missing is the religious angle, which still runs deep even today. It was really a "cult war".

England had not so long before (early 1500s) removed itself from the Roman Catholic church by the simple expedient of Henry VIII having a big fight with the Pope and appointing himself head of the (new) Church of England (to this day, the reigning monarch is technically the head of the Cof E). The monasteries were dissolved and Henry VIII took their wealth into his coffers. The RCs didn’t like this, of course. A very unsettled period followed, with his daughters Elizabeth (Protestant) and Mary (RC) fighting for the throne. Mary called on her loyal RC associates abroad (in particular, the French and Spanish) and it’s from those countries that many of the plotters later came. This is the period of “burning at the stake” (ouch!) for RC heretics – burning to purge out the heresy in their souls.

Mary’s existence made life very difficult for Elizabeth, as Elizabeth, being the child of a second marriage where the first wife was still alive, was considered illegitimate. Mary was executed by Elizabeth’s command in 1587. Elizabeth herself died in 1603, leaving the throne of England to James of Scotland.

A further unsettled period began, leading directly to the Gunpowder Plot of 1605. The RCs thought they could win over or otherwise wrest control from James. A lot of this influence came from continental Europe, but as well as the RC support from overseas, there were also a lot of English supporters in very wealthy families. The plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament was really the last gasp of such determined efforts by the RCs to bring back England into their fold.

Even now, England is considered a Protestant country and there are not so many RCs about.

The conspirators were horridly executed (if drawn and quartered, this occurred after they were hanged, fortunately). I don’t know how they were all killed, I doubt HDQ for all of them, and suspect further burnings at the stake.

Traditionally, in England, a huge bonfire is built. In previous years, a stuffed effigy of Guy Fawkes was plonked on top of it. It burned to the cheers of the crowd surrounding the bonfire. Lots of fireworks were also let off, symbolising the gunpowder explosions that didn’t happen.

The huge public spectacle bonfire persists, though increasingly rare as insurance companies refuse to insure against accidents. In many places, the home (garden) bonfire is still cherished and people have bonfire parties with their friends and neighours.

Haven’t seen a Guy Fawkes in years. When I was a kid, we used to sit in the street with our “guy” collecting change from passers-by. And there were contests in primary school for the “best guy”.

Firework displays have become more and more common and some of them are pretty awesome fireworks too.

http://www.gunpowder-plot.org (or Google "Gunpowder plot").

So really, you see, it was all a war of the cults. And it’s still going on, just more subtly.

For those that are interested (and still with me), traditional fare is:

Baked potato (sometimes cooked in the embers of the bonfire)

Roast chestnuts

Ale

I didn’t have any of these and stayed home instead. Boring boring.

I seem to remember (very distantly) something about CG publishing a book that was "edited posthumously" by VPW.

I remember because Jo-n Re-nolds was outraged by it - I suspected at the time that it wasn't so much that JRR was outraged but someone else (possibly a someone whose initials include L and C and M). Never knew more than that, though.

I wonder how many copies sold? Does anyone claim having bought one? European believers?? Current CG fellowship group attenders??

Turn your eyes upon Jesus :unsure:

by Victor Paul Wierwille

Unknown Binding: 167 pages

Publisher: The Way in Great Britain (1990)

ISBN: 1870676351

Well, this is a new one for the collection.

Found it whilst having a rummage around in Amazon for something else.

How interesting that it wasn't published by American Christian Press...

Thanks, Thomas. Is the CES work any good?

Strange, I am so sick of hearing about VWP's - stuff - that I'm more likely to give credence to something (anything) that doesn't have his name on it. Well, not really, but I just don't rate the things with his name on very highly.

Hey you lot, it was so nice of you to ring and shout "Hello" at me on Saturday! :) Wish I could have been there. Another time, maybe.

In the meantime, I'll just imagine the spare ribs and blueberry cheesecake - mmmm-mmmmm...

Are you sure these songs weren't a subtle send-up?

Well then, these sound (let's say) original to TWI which at least is something. I wonder that (if) VPW didn't plagiarise something or other put out by (say) the JWs, since they are a big group into JCNG.

Any ideas on who would have been in the Research Team at the time? I know Walter C had been in the RT at one time but was "disposed of"; but that was well after both books were published.

Can't recall any comments from "VP & Me" but that was a long time ago.

Yes, he should have said "edit" if it was a group effort (wonder how much VPW did actually put in?) and the other contributors should have been identified and acknowledged. That would, however, have required of VPW a meekness and humility that was demanded but never demonstrated.

Slightly off topic, but what books are you talking about, WW, under your point B?

Kinda ties in nicely with Skyrider's thread on Imprisoned without Bars.

Not that, at the time, anybody from TWI thought that they were imprisoned.

Suspect those Birth to Corps papers were (or became) just a way of finding out what buttons you have that could perhaps still be pressed. Manipulation, rather than manifestation of blessings.

it's been a much longer and tougher path to reassemble myself from recovered parts than it was for them to destroy me.

Take courage, it is hard to "reassemble" yourself, but I find that the pieces fit together better than they ever did before. What's more, I like the end result so much more.

Don't forget to add some extra bits like compassion, patience, forgiveness and longsuffering.

A quickie "in rez" tale.

A big event was coming up, can't remember what. Sp.ptnr had lovingly sent me a beautiful bouquet of flowers; he knew we would be busy and wanted to bless me. As usual I was on beverage crew and knew I would hardly see my bed during this event (long hours). So I brought the flowers down and arranged them in the main lobby where I knew I would be serving most and everyone could enjoy them, not just me. I got told to remove them. Asked why - it was because "there weren't any on the table in the dining room lobby and the people getting drinks there might wonder why" (I have an idea he said they might get jealous, but I can't really imagine he did say that - maybe it was the overall impression). I split the flowers into two bunches and put some on each table. It still wasn't good enough. The flowers went back to my overheated room and I peered at them through the matchsticks holding my eyelids apart as often as I could.

Often wondered: would anyone really get upset if one beverage table had a few flowers on it and another some distance away didn't?

Thanks, Dan. Have printed it off so that I can study at leisure.

I rather imagined both Raf and WordWolf would have a lot to say on the subject(s).