Twinky

We are unified in our believing and are like-minded in the truth the way we have been taught it. It's not a huge deal, either you are meek and humble to receive answers or you are posting information trying to sway people every which way. I will have to ban people that are doing this, plain and simple. No hardening of hearts, please understand if people are really seeking the truth it is better to receive it in person - GO to a fellowship!!!

Agh, those horror words that they beat us with, "meek" and "humble". Aagh, my head hurts!!

Yeah, let's ban people from asking questions. Let's ban them from using their God-given brains. Not a huge deal??? Seeking the truth??? If people are really seeking the truth they'd be better at the Cafe. Can Paw stick a pointer to the Cafe on their page (he, he)?

Ban people??? LOL. Not legalistic, then.

(Sorry, thought I was over this red rag stuff but clearly not)

Notes re Weekend in the Word – Bath 20 and 21.10.06

A weekend in the Word in Bath, England, took place on 20-21 October. Rev Wayne Clapp came from CFF. Present were people from four or five cities in the UK as well as one or two from other countries. Overall, though, it was quite a small gathering comprising people who were ex-TWI, ex-Gartmore and some who have never been part of either. Surprisingly, there were a number of local believers who did not come. Different people came on each day, some coming to both days and some to only one. Some of them I haven’t seen in over 20 years. Catching up was like seeing them last week except that all had been hurt but were now much mellower and deeper, having recovered from their personal hurt.

The location was in village hall, and the entire interior had been washed, polished and was immaculately clean – done mostly by two male believers, one of whom has only been a Christian for about 3 years. Everything was decent and in order. These lads chose to wash all the chairs (shades of Rock of Ages) and vacuum the seats of the chairs; tables and chairs for dining were beautifully laid out (all this done without a single piece of string) and the kitchen was immaculate. (Way Corps couldn’t have done it better.)

There was abundance of food provided by the hosts and on the day lots of people helped to put together cooked food, fresh sandwiches, lay the perishable stuff on tables, etc. Nobody was asked to do anything. Everyone just chose to pitch in and do what they could.

Wayne taught on Saturday from Psalms and 2 Kings 18 & 19. He taught on standing firm in the midst of adversity, when besieged (from Kings) and that the people were just one day away from complete deliverance (it was that record where the women are fighting over whose son to kill and eat next – how desperate is that!!). Just one day from deliverance!! On Sunday he taught from 2 Kings and Chronicles on Hezekiah putting things in order right from the very beginning of his reign, on preparing his heart to do God’s Word and the resultant blessings to all Israel, not just Judea. That enabled Hezekiah’s people to withstand when they were besieged. He compared records from 2 Kings and from Chronicles and also gave references where appropriate from Isaiah, although we didn’t look at those. He wanted to make the point that preparation is the key to receiving the fullness of what’s available from God.

What Wayne taught on Saturday and Sunday was powerful and important, but the major thing that I want to share with you on this site is how he conducted himself.

Here on GSC, we have all been hurt and seen and experienced vile and unspeakable things from “leadership”, whether from CG or LCM or other folks connected with TWI. None of us are strangers to the blatant bullying from some self-appointed “men of God”. I still remember my first teaching session by CG, at Gartmore (man, there was hardly room for anyone else in the room, his ego was so big) followed by a brief and rather scary accidental meeting with him at some point during the same weekend. That still makes me shudder. He made me feel like I was too far below his exaltedness to be worthy of speaking to, and he wafted me off like a troublesome fly.

Last weekend was a universe[i/] away from TWI or Gartmore. As far as the east is from the west. Very tender and loving.

I am not particularly flying the flag for Wayne, I only went "for a look" but it is sooo different with him. I’ve heard him teach before but can’t recall actually speaking with him.

Absolutely no ego. I was visiting and later stayed at the home where he was staying, so all in all got to spend a fair bit of time with him. He needed a shirt ironing. After double checking myself (do I want to do this, or is it expected from a WC point of view?), I offered to iron his shirt. He absolutely refused to let me. "Too WC," he smiled. He put everyone before himself. Crikey, the man was sleeping in a TENT in the cold and rain - it rained very heavily in the middle of the night the tent leaked, and the airbed he was on went down twice - and still he wouldn't come in the house and take someone's bedroom. He was sharing the tent with another guy, just an “ordinary” believer, nobody high up. He simply would not do anything that would cause even slight difficulty to anyone. I was there! I was in the house!! In "my" own room for one night (kid's bedroom) - I even wanted and would have preferred to stay in the tent (love camping). He is NOT a leader who wants to be served, but to serve. There were other guests, and although it was patently obvious that Wayne really wanted to go to bed, he just sat up with the rest of us, fellowshipping as best he could. Over several evenings, not once did he thrust an opinion on anyone or try preaching at us or monopolising the time. In fact, he rarely spoke unless spoken to first.

He helped at take-down after the meetings, just like any other person, not pushing or directing but just helping where he could, hauling tables and chairs and ferrying stuff to the (self-appointed) washing up crew in the kitchen. Can't say I have seen many other "leaders" behave like that... (long pause for thought) - no, others have only told the worker bees what to do. He was so unobtrusive and quiet - he just got on with things, very low-key. It wasn't a show, it was just his heart to bless.

So all in all, it was a truly refreshing and enjoyable weekend. There was real and unfeigned love of God in and towards all and after the hardness of TWI, it was rest to the soul.

"Slow him down"? Paw, are you joking? Try... a rocket launcher into outer space. That'd get rid of him.

He has caused a lot of hurt here.

This is a terribly difficult topic and there is no "one size fits all" answer. It was abuse, pure (?) and simple, but abuse of a special kind. Some men (as Coolchef is honest to indicate) find it very difficult to think of their women sexually active with another man - especially in this sort of situation. Other men (P@ul All-n) have the guts to go confront it head on. But that was then and may not be an appropriate response now.

For the women involved, if they do not want to tell their husbands, it might be very helpful and a great release to find some other trusted woman friend(s) to talk to (perhaps even another so-abused woman, if one can be located).

Of course, this assumes that the marriage is still intact. Far too many marriages are not, or have already been seriously damaged by the other shenanigans of TWI.

Hmm, think if anyone in my twig had asked permission to go to a cake-making class on a twig night I would have said no, outright.

(Joke)

No, that is, unless she brought the fruits of her labor back to twig occasionally and got all the women complaining about breaking their diets! :) :) :) :) (She would have been more than happy to do so, I'm sure! What a lovely lady she sounds)

How pathetic can it go when an adult has to ask permission to take a cake decorating class.

A cake decorating class??..What..was Christ gonna go out of business if she took it???

Doojabble:

he couldn't pray for a man's son unless he got permission from Loy Boy

I do remember at HQ he kicked Rev Thomas out because his daughter had died as a result of a drug overdose. People were forbidden on pain of being M&A'd themselves from contacting Rev Thomas's family to convey condolences. Reason: it was Rev Thomas's poor oversight that had caused his daughter's death. Therefore he was not worthy either of his ministry (peeling spuds) or of compassion from the household.

Corps are just people – many, very committed people. Unfortunately, many of the good, committed ones with tender hearts seemed to get dumped on and eventually kicked out for not toeing the party line.

No doubt there were good Corps and … less helpful Corps, in every group (even the Zero corps).

There are many WC who post here and many are very helpful. Some graduated, some didn’t. They still have the desire to serve that motivated them to enter and put up with WC training, and are still exercising their wonderful compassionate hearts, and they hold forth the truth IN LOVE. What a difference that makes! Bless their great big hearts.

Well - the "integrity of the Word was at stake," wasn't it? (ironic smirk)

But who put it to the stake? TWI, by not confronting the wrongdoing.

...By perpetuating the lies, deceit, corruption.

...By acting completely full of hypocrisy.

...By hiding - not covering in love - but covering in shame.

What an amazing letter, Bliss. LCM used to mouth off about "weasel words" and avoiding speaking plainly. Yes, it's mentioned - but so glossed over and done in such a way that it isn't really mentioned at all.

Well - this is "The Age of Confrontation" after all, isn't it? (according to LCM)

The duplicitousness of TWI makes me rather annoyed.

(Paw, how about a little weasel in the Smilies?)

Well hello y'all. Just joined you lot, and ex10 and Pete, you know who I am.

Will be seeing some other exWayers at the w/e so will see if any of them want to join in/know about GSC too.

Are there any non-English speaking exWayers who log in, I wonder? Might there be need (perhaps within this forum) of a French speaking subforum? Just musing.

Twinky

Hi Trusty

Just one thing, were you supposedly full time with TWI or was this you in "voluntary capacity"?

For a research ministry - what's new in that TWI post anyway?

Back to the Loaded Words post - just before reviewing this one I'd said the expression "The Word" especially in conjunction with other words like "doing" (I didn't put "living") made the hair stand up. Well you should see my Afro now.

Wow, first time I have read this thread, makes the hair on the back of my head stand up. So glad I haven't heard some of these endearing expressions (joke) for a long time.

Waysider:

But more to the point of the thread. I think perhaps what we are talking about here are words and phrases that automatically "push our buttons" and elicit a predictable response.

For me this was evidenced on two different levels,especially in the workplace.

1.) I tried to follow authority somehow thinking they had the big picture in mind rather than their own private agenda. This is definitely not good advise in the work-a-day world but at the same time it does not mean that everyone fits this profile.

2.) I become(notice present tense) agitated by demands that have no purpose and sometimes even a negative purpose that are presented solely to demonstate a show of power.

I know this may seem a bit abstract but it is all very real when the correct button is pushed and stong emotions rear their heads.

Loaded word for me is : Meek.

Specifically, as in "You are not meek to the Word" (= you are not doing what TWI demands of you). Usually meant that you were actually doing something with real scriptural support.

Fortunately (am I allowed to say that?) meek is not a word in common parlance.

Has anybody included on this thread expressions like:

"the Word"

"Doing the Word"

which are a bit more than just Wayspeak

Pete:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't paying yourself an income in contradiction of the Articles of Association of the Company?

Not at all. The individual paid is an employee of the company. Just look at any small businessman who trades as PlumberInYourTown Ltd, the boss is the no.1 shareholder with 99 shares, his wife owns 1 share and he is the sole employee. Just limiting the individual's personal liability in case anything goes wrong.

Sending you a PM.

Twinky

It was a power grab, pure and simple. CG's ego is overwhelming. Fruits of his work, however, are the collapse of what was actually entrusted to him - Gartmore. It didn't last long, after the split. Less than 15 years and absolutely nothing was left.

Quite possibly if his power grab had succeeded, TWI would have collapsed earlier, too. Or maybe not.

Always had my doubts about that document with the signed "confessions". I could at one time see Howard meekly signing it (I'd always thought him very meek to the word until I read some of the posts here on GSC; now I'm not so sure :( ). Could also see Don signing it. Have a difficulty with LCM but he did at one time say he tried to go along with some of CG's points.

For all we know, the "apologies" and signatures on the document are all forgeries.

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” (Hamlet, I.v)

Paraphrased: There are things that science and rationality cannot explain (Horatio's philosophy being a scholarly one)

(The above lifted from an internet critique of Shakespeare’s Hamlet)

Seems to me that there are things that cannot be explained also in the Bible. My view is that the Bible gives us enough for what we need to run our lives in the here and now. A bit of ancient history, a bit of more modern history (OT), a peep into the future (Revelation), and a lot of stuff about how to live in our time. There is enough to chew on in what is written in the Bible. It doesn’t purport to tell us everything about the universe since … since when?

Science is for ever making new discoveries. Things like “black holes” and the “big bang” and other enormous and significant astronomical “discoveries” and theories have been made in comparatively recent times. Black holes have only been speculated about since the late 60s and Big Bang theory just a little later, early 70s, yet everyone “knows” about them. Black holes and Big Bang theory are now accepted by all astronomers and physicists, but 100 years ago, who would have a clue?

There is so much available to know about. We simply do not have the comprehension or understanding to grasp more than a fragment of it. So God has kindly written us a book so that we can know sufficient. It contains all that pertains to life and godliness that we need to know, now. (That would be an “all” with distinction.)

If the Bible had contained more, people would have screwed it up even more (even more denominations). Without making any criticism of any denomination or group: right now on this earth we have people calling themselves Christians and following OT-style, gospel-style, grace and Revelation ways of living and all convinced that is the way they/we should be living - or even, that is the administration (excuse the Wayspeak) in which we are living. Happily we do not have a Biblical “outer space” way of living (well, some folk are “out there” but that’s not what I mean).

There’s a lot of stuff that has happened and that is to happen that we simply cannot know about right now. Astronomy and other sciences cannot supply the answers and the Bible is silent.

This is a most interesting and not irrelevant thread (and we do have the privilege of discussing it! TWI had no answers, none obvious, anyway).

It’s clear that God is only one of many spirit beings but where they came from or how they came to exist is far from clear. It’s also clear that spirit beings have what we call free will, but maybe for a spirit being it is something different. Much more than that remains to be learned well in the future. Hard to sort out the figures of speech from what is literally meant, as some of WordWolf’s posts have indicated.

We can speculate all we like about where the Devil came from, and how he/it got to be as evil as he/it is. Perhaps God omitted that bit from the Bible on purpose. Just like there were many things that were hidden from OT believers but are now made known in our administration.

By the by, Allan’s analogy of the Black Thread sounds just about right. The secret of his success is the secrecy of his moves, and all that.

Great thread, this. Thought-provoking.

.. a ... woman, who takes care of her body and looks better than she did as a teenager!! They call that egotistical. They were probably jealous. ... Women were treated horribly.

Taking care of your body is CP3 - did your husband have you running around outside at 6 am and doing press-ups? But good on you for keeping yourself so fit and well.

It seems to me that JEALOUSY is such a big part of TWI's problem.

There is a LOT of material on GSC from both men and women documenting the lousy attitude to women. They honour with their mouths but their hearts are far from it. Every year, women seem to have got more and more put upon. Don't know if it is any better now with Rosalie at the head.

I cannot imagine what or why women should be thought so badly of. We aren't still paying for Eve's deliberate mistake are we? Let's not forget Adam's deliberate choice also to dine where he shouldn't!! I had many OT examples of poor female reliability thrown at me. Conveniently forgotten were the "good" women and the poor OT male examples.

Jealous? Yeah!!

Pink Lady:

He beat you up? So much for walking in love and loving you as Christ loved the church.

Only one remaining suggestion -

GET OUT NOW before he does more serious damage.

TWI will not help you or support you or take your side against him. Don't waste your time. Get to your lawyer and file against him. Make this your first job on Monday. Then you can get an injunction kicking him out of the home and letting you back in it.

DO NOT PUT UP WITH PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. GET OUT NOW.

God bless and protect you.

There used to be quite a few TWI folk in Southampton. Maybe the Moynihans aren't doing so bad there. Hard luck, Southampton.

Oh yeah, and they also go to other cities to try to "win back" those who have already escaped. Sad.

Having fairly recently escaped from where you are, here are a few things that I found helped me:

* Get some other version of the Bible, not KJV, and read that. Try a more modern language version.
* In the editorial section on GSC, I read everything I could find. I was completely shocked and found it very very hard to believe. Then the reality began to sink in. I could begin to acknowledge some of those red flags that had been there, not necessarily about the matters raised in the Editorial section, but other things too.
* Especially helpful was the short Editorial item about spiritual abuse.
* I read a book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” which has been much recommended on GSC. It was as though someone had peered inside TWI and was writing about it. But it was originally written quite some time before all the really bad stuff hit the fan at TWI.
* Read the other stories on GSC. You will find you were not alone in whatever you suffered. You don’t need to reply – just read and realise that what happened to you was part of a wide pattern. You will then begin to realise that you personally are not to blame for what happened to you and your family. You'll probably find that some of those things you questioned have already been discussed at length.
* Find some decent people to fellowship with – they can be exWayers or perhaps from some other denomination. Learn to recognise loving kindness and learn to accept it, too. Just because other Christians weren’t a part of TWI does not mean they don’t know God and don’t know what being kind to one another means! (If they are exWay they will especially understand your occasional crazy ideas.) Learn to laugh at silly things. It’s okay to ask questions and ask what other Christians believe.
* Try not to think too badly of those who have hurt you, especially your husband. He was/is a victim too. Have compassion, and don’t be afraid to laugh at the daft things (note, things – not people). God has a great sense of humour and you just might find him laughing at the same things (maybe it stops him getting truly furious too soon) .

Stick around and you will find lots of helpful advice and some new friends.

We have fun doing the "literal according to usage- Way-isms" threads every once in a while around here. It seems that more often than not what was said and what we now realise it to mean were polar opposites.

That's what the Witnessing Cards thread is about :)

Not quite sure where "blame the victim" sits in that (perhaps "promotes prosperity and health"?). I know of others who have been attacked and have been asked where their believing has broken down. You're not alone in that, Lindyhopper. Unfortunately.

If it's "wonderful", where and what are the "wonders"?

And the signs and miracles, come to that.

Well, I thought some of you might have liked

as there's been a lot of evidence of that shown on GSC!

I vote for Mstar and Allan's posts, but how about:

"Ali finds something to complain about when the wind suddenly changed direction and his face got stuck"

What does a Wolf want with a fieldmouse? Not a very filling breakfast!

It’s the TWI anniversary. Way Disciples may be sent out. Don’t know if they still have witnessing cards, but here are the little sayings from PFAL witnessing and sign-up cards (with literals according to usage).

Establishes and maintains a positive attitude

MEANS

Establishes and maintains a [positively] terrified attitude

Makes life meaningful

MEANS

Makes life meaningless

OR MAYBE

Makes life meeting-ful

Overcomes worry and fear

MEANS

Fills your life with worry and fear

EXPANDED:

… about things you had no idea existed beforehand

Promotes prosperity and health

MEANS

Promotes organisational prosperity at your expense

OR MAYBE

Requires health at all times

Explains apparent Bible contradictions

MEANS

Introduces idiosyncratic Bible interpretations

Develops more harmony in the home

MEANS

Develops disharmony in the home

OR MAYBE

Develops more harmony in the home by encouraging you to throw out loved ones

Enables you to separate truth from error

MEANS

Enables you to separate truth from practical application

EXPANDED

Enables you to separate Biblical principle from practical application

Disciplines the mind by believing

MEANS

Discourages the body by overwhelming tiredness

Teaches how to pray effectively

MEANS

Teaches how to prey effectively

Would anyone like to add their own Literals?

Are there any volunteers to accompany the Way Disciples to explain these principles to the people they witness to?

…Are there any volunteers to witness to the Way Disciples??

The difficult question is what about those who truly have "never heard."

I think VPW, yes, even he, said in PFAL but maybe somewhere else, that he didn't know about them but trusted in a merciful God.

We're not just talking about people in our day and time either. What about people like say Aborigines in Australia or native Americans deep in the Rockies or people in Japan - 1000 years ago? (I suggest these places only by way of example because I'm not aware of reports of early Christian missionaries reaching those places at that time.) Or more recent, or longer ago?

Presumably some of them were good by the standards of their time; some had an innate Godlike goodness; some were outright vile.

The Samaritan woman's example doesn't quite apply. She had some idea, but not correct (she "knew not" what she worshiped).

Glad I am not the one who has to decide.

Bramble:

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not making your point for you. You have had the opportunity to hear about JC meet his Father. You make your own decision and choose your own path, and believe what you want to believe. Not looking for a fight here.