Twinky

The difficult question is what about those who truly have "never heard."

I think VPW, yes, even he, said in PFAL but maybe somewhere else, that he didn't know about them but trusted in a merciful God.

We're not just talking about people in our day and time either. What about people like say Aborigines in Australia or native Americans deep in the Rockies or people in Japan - 1000 years ago? (I suggest these places only by way of example because I'm not aware of reports of early Christian missionaries reaching those places at that time.) Or more recent, or longer ago?

Presumably some of them were good by the standards of their time; some had an innate Godlike goodness; some were outright vile.

The Samaritan woman's example doesn't quite apply. She had some idea, but not correct (she "knew not" what she worshiped).

Glad I am not the one who has to decide.

Bramble:

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not making your point for you. You have had the opportunity to hear about JC meet his Father. You make your own decision and choose your own path, and believe what you want to believe. Not looking for a fight here.

Safari! Your photo!!

Sunesis:

That's the way I see it, too.

I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

Different if someone has never heard or had the opportunity to hear.

It does make me wonder sometimes when "heard" really is "heard" ie to the point of understanding and really making a decision, rather than just accepting a sort of community status quo. It probably took some of us here on GSC a long time to make up our minds before we truly made the decision for ourselves. We might even have gone to church as children.

Sometimes I think maybe he hasn't heard yet because the clutter and noise of "religion" is getting in the way. But then that clutter and noise was there for us, too, and we heard...

Eagle:

Yes, "the marriage relationship is a union of christian principles.....there should be some factor that gives that marriage glue" and that's what I want - and can't have with this man. I want that special ingredient (God) that will give marriage real zest; not just a marriage that's average (or even good, by worldly standards).

He even knows I'd marry him like a shot if he changed his thinking (got to admire him in a way; he also really wants to marry me but won't "pretend" just to get what he wants).

Bramble:

It's not set up for people to fail. God does not want us to fail, he wants us to be successful.

There are many ways to live a life full of good works on earth. Many religions teach such things. People who live by such tenets may have what they perceive as a peaceful and fulfilled life.

There are not many roads, in fact only one, that leads to a full and rewarding life with God and his son JC. They don't live in Chicago!

Well, I'll just keep praying for this nice man. He appears pleased to "dwell" with me (we don't live together) and one day perhaps he will see and hear - and do. Then he can carry on as before but get eternal rewards for it. No-brainer, really, but he thinks he will be losing something!

After getting myself M&A'd by the people who were supposed to love me etc etc blah blah and in deepest misery and depression and all alone (the tiny group of believers (?) had all left and gone to another city), I realised that I needed to find some thing or some one to care about. I prayed about this and a small black cat - now quite a large cat ("Twinky") - came my way.

After that, I needed a person to love and care about. A very kind, loving man came my way. He has been kind, honest, never says a negative, thoughtful, generous and giving without counting, and most of all uncondemnatory, to me and gave me a safe place where I could start to heal my seriously damaged thoughts. He doesn't believe and thinks God is - well, he doesn't think of God at all. He doesn't believe the things I do but let me talk to him a little about them anyway. He's all the things that Ephesians says believers ought to be to one another. At such a desperate time in my life, without his kindness I probably would be in need of psychiatric treatment.

It's just how he is. It's innate, not manifesting from the love of God in his life.

But he's all the things that some so-called believers (some of them in great particular) are not.

It troubles me that someone so kind, thoughtful and considerate, whom many believers could learn much from in practical ways, is excluded from the kingdom of heaven - and so many selfish, rude, lying, hurtful people get in (not many rewards when they get there, perhaps).

We don't get into heaven by works. He hasn't confessed Jesus as lord in his life - after looking at some negative internet press about TWI and also stuff about other religions (eg, the RC child abuse scandals), he has backed off completely and truly does not want to know. Works is all he has, but they are from a good and loving heart.

Don't know what to think about this - just know God makes rules but is not unfair.

Anybody out there who can offer any comment?

Kit: sorry, I've hijacked your topic somewhat.

Must be genetic.

Something to do with the bags under the eyes, perhaps?

Too right, Bagpipes.

That's if you were even worthy of contempt - you might recall sometimes people were made to feel unworthy even of that.

(Self)Condemnation is a bedfellow of the contempt which is described.

All this from a "ministry" that was keen to tell us that there is therefore no condemnation... and then proceeded to put so many of its people exactly there.

I'm very thankful for GSC and its denizens, wise or wacky!

... some friends going out Way Disciple as Interim Corps....((((sigh))))

There's still a Corps? There's still "outreach"?

Hay, any chance of Grease Spotters witnessing to the Way Disciples?? LOL

Thanks, Bowtwi, not quite the same photo that I saw, but quite clearly the same idiot.

Inspiring; never give up.

Lotta Biblical principles, if you want to take it that way.

Two people working together will succeed, etc.

God will make a way (etc) even if you are stuck at the bottom of a deep crevasse.

But most of all, never give up.

Joe Simpson resumed mountain climbing when he finally recovered from his knee injury. But now he has taken up microlighting.

He still doesn't believe in God.

Just for a bit of total madness, I was at a conference the other day and the head of the Legal Dept of Random House UK was one of the speakers. There has been a court case in the UK where the authors of HB,HG are suing Dan Brown. The speaker told the delegates that Dan Brown and Lee Teabing and ... (sorry,what are their real names??) are, by a roundabout way and through multiple acquisitions, both published by Random House.

So in effect it has been RH suing RH for breach of copyright. All deny it was a publicity stunt.

Article in the local freebie daily newspaper (usually quite good at reporting):

"Stuntman Dong Changshen, 44, pulls a 1.5 tonne car using hooks attached to his eyelids in the Chinese city of Changchun yesterday."

Accompanying the words is a photo, apparently taken over the head and looking along the chest, of some guy with hooks attached to his lower eyelids (and showing the pink of his inner eyelids) and attached to the hooks is a rope leading to a VW. :blink: :blink:

Fuel prices must be pretty bad in China...

<_< :( :unsure:

Not since I discovered the truth about TWI!

Allan, I thought this might be you as an Ozzie having a prod at the Kiwis. But then I see it's somebody in BoP - what can you expect!! Maybe the wacky baccy helped his driving skills.

Okay, Polar Bear, this is a place to catch up with people. Please tell what you know.

Did you hear about the blind guy arrested for driving? He was accompanied by a sighted driver who told him what moves to make. This is travelling at around 30 mph. The sighted driver was already been disqualified for other driving offenses.

Police followed them for about half an hour before stopping the vehicle. It was only then that they discovered the driver was blind.

...obviously the standard wasn't really so bad; what does that asy about other drivers???

Pink Lady, when God says he will never leave you or forsake you, he means:

HE WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU.

or alternatively

HE WILL NEVER EVER LEAVE YOU NOR EVER FORSAKE YOU. EVER.

And no matter what any group, cult, organization or individual tells you, they don't have the right to tell you otherwise. Can I say it again? GOD WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU.

Make a bold stand. And there is a lot of support to be had here at the GSC.

Right on, Dot!

Can everyone who got ousted (for much less heinous offences) also request re-housing by TWI?

Anyway, why do they have a property in Gunnison not on campus, when they have been busy selling off bits of the Kipp farm at HQ? Wouldn't it make more sense to sell off stuff not at HQ? Oh sorry, that removes the bolt-hole. (Ducking for cover)

On the other hand, if he [LCM] is indeed still living in a twi owned home...

WOT? WOT?? Are you REALLY saying - he was kicked out from HQ and rewarded for his behavior by installing him in a TWI household??? (gobsmacked)

Pink Lady, so sorry to hear about what has happened to you.

"The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" (which Belle recommends) is very helpful and healing. Also read in the editorial section of GSC for a similar but much shorter treatise.

Another book that has given me great (rueful) giggles lately is a version of the Bible called "The Message" which a friend of mine has lent me. It's in "plain English" so an easy read (not a serious "study" Bible) but there are times that I sit and read it and it's just like a peek into TWI and a warning to us about what was going on there. Really, I kid not - I mean, you wouldn't exactly think of Romans as a comedy show, would you??

Might help you, but maybe you need eyes to see before you understand and the kids might not read it anyway as it's not good old-fashioned KJV.

Stick around, Pink Lady, you'll get a lot of healing and support here.

That's "Southampton", Bliss (all one word).

What a thrill for the UK.

I suppose the key is...when you give yourself wholly and you don't retain 'yourself' is when this process begins to happen.

This is just a bit scary - we are supposed to love God with all our heart, mind and strength. In other words, we surrender to God. All very right and proper. That surrender was abused.

We are also supposed to consider the "old man" [or woman] dead (as in trespasses and sins). The image given to us was of lugging a corpse around tied to our backs.

Well, you can't rape a dead body. That's something else. Necrophilia, anyone (yeuk) :unsure: [why isn't there a "sticking out the tongue Smiley?]

But then we are talking about emotional rape...

Actually it also puts me in mind of that Austrian girl Natascha who recently escaped from her captor of 8 years. She was just a little kid when she was captured by a much older male; kept in a dungeon in poor conditions; threatened and never knew what mood she would find him in - whether he would be nice to her or beat her. She also had to share his bed. Occasionally he treated her with kindness and gave her things (like a radio) to help her personal growth.

She was emotionally and physically raped and yet at heart she retained a little core of herself which enabled her to escape.

Nobody could say that Natascha consented to the conditions.

TWI has kept some of us in poor conditions, never knowing whether they would be nice or not to us; and giving us just enough that we could feel we had some personal growth. (Heck, there were enough meetings to go to). (And a few had to share the bed of the head honcho(s)). And we retained a core of ourselves that we can use to emotionally extricate ourselves.

I do not mean to belittle her horrible experiences in any way. God help her (and the psychiatrists) in sorting her thinking patterns out now. :(

Glad I'm not the only one to thnk this. The same expression "emotional rape" had occurred to me some time ago.

It can also be rape, legally, if "consent" was obtained by threats or duress. We all know about duress.

This may be an expression that speaks more to the female visitors to the Cafe. What do male visitors think?

Bowtwi:

If you feel inclined to do such a thing again, perhaps get details of the loan account that needs to be paid (and check the details!) and pay the lender direct - don't give it to your brother to pay in, he's already shown himself untrustworthy. But God bless your heart in giving. You did the right thing, even if he didn't.