engine

8 hours ago, Raf said:

My memory of this is a little different, and I'm interested in seeing whether others remember it the way I do.

I recall VPW saying there's no such thing as an ATHEIST, because atheists say they don't believe anything, but they do believe something -- they believe that they don't believe.

I took it as an example of poor humor at the time. Never really read anything into it because it was so demonstrably stupid that it wasn't worth arguing.

I recall that, too, as Raf does....exactly... in Piffle. Thought about it last night.

But, we know there was more, too.

Stay away from Momentous. 

I almost took it, and it would have destroyed me in my disorganized and confused mental state of seeking answers.  I have spoken to two Directors of Momentous. Once in 1996 by phone. I was dissuaded to take it by the lack of clear reasons as to why a release was necessary. I had not heard specific horror stories then but only about the extreme intensity of it. Then, the second one  a few years ago. Said it was a great seminar, though it destroyed one facet of her personal life. Like her marriage. I had long ago abandoned the idea in 1996 because of that legal Release, and the stories that had emerged, but now it was 2016, and this was a former Board member. Not known here, BTW.

Still, after 20 years, she still believed it was good. Not a thing wrong with it. Stood by it. I know plenty of others who it really messed up. They had no idea what was about to happen, and our training as corpse to tough anything out for God and the Word kept them there in that scary and abusive environment. Then some came out all whacked out. I speak of the ones I know.

Well, if it personal Transformation you're after, then that takes time, and quietness. That can be done on one's own time. No yelling and all that other junk. Momentous is destructive to the Self, and my Board of Directors person applauded the methodology.  But, then, she also believes, as of 2016, that vpw was a genius at putting all that diverse material together from all those other teachers, Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Pillai, and on and on, and getting it so fabulously to us.  And, vpw, in spite of what she knew about him, was tremendous in his teaching and compilation abilities, that personal shortcomings could be noted, but overlooked in favor of the former. We had that discussion 3 or 4 times, and she just could not budge from that view.

We do not speak anymore. The "Eternally Blessed" website is for her Ilk.

That person also LOVED the corpse....the 14th. Need I say more? 

I simply think we were poorly and pathetically taught.

The Splinter Groups simply cannot admit they were taught wrong. Session One? Piffle.....what corrects wrong teaching? Hah! Right teaching. And, that ain't coming from The Way no matter the Era.

I also think that's why splinter groups keep splintering further and further into the Wild Blue Yonder: It appears to me that the Splinter Groups believe they were taught correctly, ALMOST, but, like a Cook, this needs more salt, hmmmm, some more of this, or that. Then, we'll have this Manifestions of the Spirit stuff cooking, our Walk by the Spirit, and the Word will move. Well, I'd love to see that, but, I doubt it.

Nope. Sorry. Your Foundation is a mess, IMO,  designed poorly, and the exclusion of the Chief Cornerstone was a fundamental mistake. Go back. Make a course correction. Raze your building, and start over, or do some costly repair work. And, costly it will be, I assure you, but better.

These daze, my opinion is that if you cannot or will not sincerely try to practice the "Sermon on the Mount," or other sayings of Jesus, then SIT DOWN and SHUT UP.

One more thing: Splinter Groups that we may know will never change what they are teaching- they have too much time and effort invested in their writings, publications, events, websites, people, organization, and so forth, to CHANGE their "theological" positions. After all, some have their "doctorates" now, and an honest reevaluation of their positions after 40 years would be nearly impossible it seems. 

It is out of the question for some to consider that we were instructed so terribly and anemically in comparison to other Fundamentalist Christian groups (if that is one's ilk): Baptists, Reformed Theology, other Biblical Literalists like RC Sproul, Al Mohler, and John Piper- they can dismantle the Ways "teachings" easily because they were schooled well, and ours was developed by a POS who was a shallow thinker, but a good salesman. Oh, let us not forget Dr. John Juedes.

BTW, I have seen the claims that they went to Seminary now to explain away, bury,  the three brutal years of corpse doggy doodoo brainwashing.  An Ex-Way claiming Seminary? Weren't we taught to despise Seminaries? Why did they say this, then? To bolster their authority or credibility? And one of those  didn't even know what Eschatology was, and that by abandoning Dispensationalism, as he said he sorta' did,  the entire Eschatological viewpoints change or vanish. So much for the critical thinking in YOUR realm of studies. Doctorates?

I am very fond of the folks I met in those years, I truly am. Isn't there an adage out there that goes something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?" My insanity that led, in part, to my many woes over the last 40 years was just that: trying to get Way doctrine to work. It simply didn't, and, for me, and caused me great harm and loss.

Fare Thee Well to all Way offshoots.

I feel these photos are appropriate. They were sent to me by his son Steven of the Memorial Emily and he had the next evening following. They chose to do their Private  ceremony at Sunset.

I did as well because I knew of it. The photos came later that evening.

Steve Santini, 5th Corps, was fatally injured in an  two vehicle automobile accident on July 10, 2019 in Farimont, WV.  His son said his death was instantaneous. He was 72.

Steve left behind his beloved wife, Emily, and son, Steven ( 40 years). 

I visited with Steve and Emily in Fairmont in October, 2018, and we supped together. His main interest was Paul and the Mystery, and that Paul was the first and foremost of the Apostles: "MY" Gospel.  Steve left  the Air Force Academy after his first year to seek for the Truth, as he related it to me. Then, the Corps.

His papers can be found here, but I do not know how long that site will be active. His most interesting paper, to me, was "The Feminine Gender of the Holy Spirit". I believe this was his favorite work, and, from what I gathered, a critical, but missing element, for a better understanding of this area. He wanted this out to everyone. He told me it made it's way into the Vatican, and he was quite satisfied about that.

https://www.musterion8.com/feminine.html

Emily said the Memorial will take place in Massachusetts sometime in August. But, nothing was set because it happened so suddenly. He went out to do errands, and never returned.

Peace, my dear Friend, Steve.

R

The journey to realiization of self outside Christian Fundamentalism and Twit has been long and arduous for me. This site has, again, proven invaluable.

DWBH, unbeknownst to him, has helped me tremendously on the finding of the Authentic Self and by mentioning other concepts to which I was CLUELESS. I truly thought I left the Twit outlook on life years after 1986, but the last ten years showed me I had not. I essentially cocooned me, myself, and I (ALL of US) for the last 1 1/2 years to investigate where my behaviors and actions, beliefs, and so forth, originated because my life was still a true mess. Worse than ten years ago. Oh, and my sisters deserve credit for saving my life: they told me that they thought I had some kind of PTSD or something (in addition to one vice I've struggled with since '86), and that IT , that Thing, was from Twit! That was 3 years ago my sisters told me.

Shocking what I have seen. I have felt like I was one of the engineers in Chernobyl (HBO) who, so well "trained" in the Soviet- Communist doctrine, that they could not believe the reactor blew up. But, there it was: blown up. Denial. Why could they not wrap their heads around it?  Well, all the information in the studies proved it couldn't explode, plus, it was Soviet made, and therefore the BEST, and THIS reactor type CANNOT blow up. Check it out. Don't want to spoil it. The cognitive dissonance term I've seen around here was in full view on the actors faces. What a fine job those actors did.

And, my goodness, it's a really bright world out there. WOW. Might what I am experiencing here of late perhaps be compared to Helen Keller's first understanding "water?" An awakening?

One step was going back to my science. That's in another thread. Genesis 1 "became"  (hah) allegorical to me and not literal. If Fundamentalist folks don't like that, well, I'll just say Revelation is mostly allegorical and symbolic, yet you chose to make it literal, right? So, why, based on your approach, can't I take your literal and make it allegorical and symbolic? 

I investigated myself because I knew Twit had affected me, but how deeply?  How much. What could I not see? What did I leave unfinished? Sisters said trauma??? So, off I went. Why was I erratic? Where was my happy personal life?

The doctrine and abuse from Twit and corpse did traumatize me, and the fact that it was force fed and with a good helping of abuse there really f'd me up. As I see it, the introjected regulations, beliefs or actions that do not agree with my Authentic self and that I "integrated" these into my "self" as good. They were not good at all, caused severe conflicts. I was not aware how PERVASIVE the "trauma" went inside me until lately during my sabbatical. And, it's mostly Twit/corpse junk, and I know when the first "shudder" went through me, and who it was- a 3rd corpse..close to VPW. Summer 1974, West Virginia, 2 months in, at the limb house for a meeting w/ fellow servants, all local believers- a great bunch. I was so happy to be there. So happy. All open and vulnerable. Limb Coor walks in to the front of room to the podium, but we remained seated, then we got a 10 minute reproof session to STAND next time he entered the room out of RESPECT for the word of god that is inside of him. Severe reproof. Blindsided. Mortal Sin stuff. We were all scared (fake reverent and humble). Then, a few weeks later, I HAD to see him about something (?), and when I sat down in his office I was so scared that I was literally shaking in my chair. He saw me shaking. Shaking like a wet dog in the freezing rain. The first trauma to self had occurred, IMO. More to follow as I get led in.

Because of this path, I was able to formulate a much better view of all this for me. This question of homosexuality is not too hard for me to handle now.

I now say that each person has the right to be who they are, no matter what that is. They have the right to be their fully beautiful (hopefully?) selves....their Authentic Selves. Their struggle to find their Identity and acceptance and place in this world is, undoubtedly, much easier for a heterosexual person like myself, and that was confusing enough time for me. I was in NYC this past April with my family to see "Hamilton." Yes, I loved it, and because my sister gifted me the ticket I don't get any Christmas presents from her for the next 10 years! OK!? TEN YEARS!

But, our waiter at lunch before the play, a slender 30'ish year old man of Oriental extraction, had a remarkably beautiful, soft, and feminine voice. Later, my sister, more advanced than me having never been in Twit, mentioned that he might be transitioning. I was happy for that person if that's what it is. Finding themselves. And, being themselves.

I am heterosexual, and I do not understand the attraction at all, not one whit. Therefore, I find that world unappealing, and, to me, repulsive. But, in all honesty, if I think for a moment of sex between couples I know, well,  that really super grosses me out, too!  Like, gnarly, dude. Go away. So, I ask you, do you really care what goes on in someones' bedroom?

I don't like a local Market with just potatoes (Lo Shonta or Russet) , but one full of the Variety of foods and colors of all shapes, sizes and kinds, and different flowers and aromas, and rocks.

M'OK?

9 hours ago, Kathy Niclaus said:

Love you now,

love you later,

love you like

a lo shonta potato.

LOLOLOL!

Too CUTE! LOL, 2.

11 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

i’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?

I have no idea on how it was received. IIRC, circa 1980 or so IBM was working on the lightweight Selectric "ball" or 'typing element"  with that alphabet. Then the PC came out circa 1982 and bye bye you wonderful Selectric you. 

I just looked. It seems that many Academics like it, though they are aware of it's origins, and that old "Father, Father, for this purpose was I....."  was translated per vpw in Piffle. 

DETOUR:

RE:  Dominionist Theology: what a CROCK of poo-poo. If those Dominionists are in charge in anything in this future Kingdom they speak of (Millenial Kingdom) or get any authority, then I will tell Jesus personally to count me OUT!  I will stay outside those walls. Rhema Words???  Good gravy....even further out on the edge of the Bell curve than twi. Speak the Words of God from your Spirit, and it will come into being. These words are special Rhema words....not Logos words...huh?  The more of us who do it then the more effect it has. Hence, IMHO, that's why one can see this on FB and the like. I had respect for these folks at one time. Great respect the folks that now believe that crap and even "suggest" that  believers names might be written in the Stars, too. And, maybe even learn what your Ministries are if you run your birthdate on our little program....for a fee...levels I- III. Guess who owns the Program? Another quietly uses this Program as a way to help one recognize and free-up your Ministry areas. Each level up, more detail, more bucks. Not much....but, why? 

More Ethelbert taken as Gospel. And, thanks, all you Dominionists, for creating another Class struggle, as you use your superior wealth and connections to influence OUR Country and World politics so that all will comply and submit to you, and more, in His Holy Name. I thank you for showing me publicly your true thoughts and loving ideas- DOMINION over us all....in Love, of course! For Him, most certainly indeed. Bunk.

Go reread the Gospels, please and thank you!

Back to the thread.

That letter is quite revealing. 

Headquarters...a private joke among him and his lukewarm supporters?

Manipulation with guilt, woe is me, I'm really trying here... I've heard this whining in my profession from everyone over 40 years...whine.....

For the any era, especially the mid 1950's, that was a brazenly forward letter. No wonder the adults wouldn't listen to him. Him telling them what to do. Family folks in Ohio farm country.

He called my Mom and Dad for an Ambassador One weekend circa 1978...they were grads in name only.....Dad saw through it in a second, and just had a nice chat with him, then hung up. They declined then and there.

That brings me to another topic, and I'm not trying to derail this, but during my time in-residence I found out that there were certain select folks who were SECRETLY taken on "special" trips on Ambassador One, or by other means, to special weekends, and I'm not sure they were ALL Ambassador One weekends. They were told not to tell anyone. Hush Hush.  My in-rez corpse bros and sisters'. This came to me second hand from a corpse sis long after we left in 1986...they left in 1984.

All of them had well off parents.  Like Candace G, or Bob K. Anyone else get to do this, or know about it?

He was an .... all the way back then.

Hi, Surfcat, and Welcome.

There are some good waves at this locale. Enjoy.

And, tadaaaa, the book jacket.

EmporiaRecipes_Cover.pdf

The fact that these folks are just now leaving illustrates, to me, that their minds have been dipped in a formaldahyde type solution: they don't work well anymore.

Their social circles won't change, they'll still live with their current worldview, they'll all be clinging like I did that what we were taught must be right? please? whoa, that is, IF they even question it. Manipulated by Holy Scriptures? Please, say it ain't so, Joe.

My current view is all we got Theologically was an offspring branch of Protestant Christianity (yeah, I was reared Methodist), that started with Darby back then in the 1830's, Dispensationalism (a BIGGIE!) into the Revivalism movement, to the toned down Charismatic movement birthing from Pentecostalism (no pun intended). The basis for us being at the outside edge of the Standard Bell curve? Bullinger (not as hot as we were taught), Stiles (who?), Leonard (who?).  In other words: hogwash. Others may even say the entire Bible.

I know quite a few of those folks. I liked some of them then. I am saddened that they stayed. Sigh.

I finally accepted my Geological tables, 9th grade Earth Science, the Brachiopods (fossils- at least 550 million years old) I found coupla' years later at 15 years old in a creek bed behind my home UP in my Hills at Elevation +800 ft. 

I quit on the vapor canopy theory of the Noahic Flood, and any glimmer of hope with Creationism died out, sadly, but refreshingly nice, too. 

 I understand a lot more NOW, and am still exploring. From what I've read, I might be kinda' on the same page with a few others here. Some loudmouth guy here comes to mind. The steps toward resolving these conflicts is not as hard now, and my mind is full of more questions now, but not in a confusing way. 

This has been worse than getting a coffee stain on a brand new white shirt!

These "jumps" or "parsing" in worldviews requires a flexible, unfearing mind to be able explore. Nimble. Aware. A true natural curiosity makes it more fun. 

I feel I am just getting started at times.

I don't think they can do it.

7 hours ago, waysider said:

I'm sure there must be a name for this kind of flawed logic. I just don't know what it is.

I was looking at Boxing terms a bit ago, and this reminds me of when a fight is stopped by the Ref for any number of reasons. " Other times a referee simply deems that a fighter is too battered, defenseless, or hopelessly behind and outclassed-all without a knockdown having occurred. 

I wonder if this is a TKO?

BTW, I see where the 12 really could have missed this "GO into ALL..." I know a little about how the Jews separated themselves from the unclean "others."  Gentiles. Very conscience decisions all the time on this in daily life. For centuries. Cultural norms. Traditions. 

So, I can see how Peter and the others may not have truly understood until Acts 10 and Cornelius. After all, Jesus wasn't exactly "with" them on a daily physical  basis after that. The little birdies got kicked out of the nest so they could learn to fly. It took Peter 10 chapters. LOL.

 DOH! I know I have some Homer Simpson in me, too, just like those guys seemed to have had back then.

Well, it's been a long wait for some of you, but here, for all of you Millet lovers out there, is the Recipe booklet from WCE. I am posting because it's liked by some, and I don't see it around the Cafe'. Goodness Gracious. From 1981- 1982. There may have been a cover page that got lost.

This is one of the things I saved....HAH! Don't use it hardly at all, but for some who knows?

It's scanned in 2 parts, front back. It was broken apart from it's booklet form, which was (2) sided, and stapled. 

The memories associated with aromas is powerful, at least for me. In 1991 I made my Grandmother's chicken and dumplings. Never had it at our house because my Mom didn't like them growing up. Only had them at my Grandmother's house.

Anyway, I dropped the home made dumplings into the pot, the final step, and as the dumplings began cooking, the aroma was overpoweringly wonderful, and I hadn't smelled that aroma for about 30 years. Wowee Zowee. Oh, it took me back. That night I had a dream, picture perfect!!, and I was in my Grandmother's kitchen again as a kid, into her undercounter cabinets looking for chocolate....like I used to do all the time when I was over there; they only lived a coupla' blocks from me. So wonderful because I was over there so much, and I had forgotten.

So, enjoy, please.

EmporiaRecipes_2.pdf

EmporiaRecipes_1.pdf

On 4/26/2011 at 9:01 PM, excathedra said:

so i could be sitting here almost 40 frikkin years later talking about it

Ohhh, Ex. Me, too. Sigh.

10 hours ago, Raf said:

Let's head back. I'll let you know next time I am in Deerfield.

Deal! 

3 hours ago, Raf said:

Engine, I think I knew you were local once but I have long forgotten. Did we have lunch at La Bamba?

Yes, we did. I didn't know if you'd remember.  Coconut Creek on Sample Rd, I believe.

I will say this: I have watched your skills as an Investigative reporter get well honed over the years. And, I've almost emailed you a few times to tell you I liked this article or that article. Well done. Stay on it.

Congrats, Raf.

That's my paper, and I've been seeing your bylines for years now. Your beat takes you into some nasty arenas, and I enjoy reading about it, and not being in it.

I find the Sun-Sentinel to be an outstanding paper. You guys and gals deserve this, and Wowee Zowee, The Most Pestigious Pulitzer given.

Well done, my man!

Cheers!

11 hours ago, Raf said:

oh great. Daniel again.

ROFLMAO, Raf.   Yeah, those 70 weeks. The first Rubik's cube for many!

NO comment.

11 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Engine, I am not sure if this will help in your search, but I do want to mention Chris G's POaP.  I believe it came out in 1986, or 1987.  To me, it was a lot of Hog Wash, but you might find it of some value.  In it, Chris whines about how hard it was for him to get The Word established in the UK.  

Thanks Grace,

I haven't been around here much for a long time, and had never seen that link from Penworks (Thx, Penworks, BTW), but on all the other pretty current. 

I was at the reading of POP at corps week in '86. 

Have read portions since. My gawd, that poor man, look at the burden on him and how he really serves and shields the MOGFOT  and how he tries so hard, and no matter what he just keeps trying, and the hurt and pain of OUR beloved MOGFOT, oh, I wish I had been there.....sob sniff  tears.....NOT.

I also know two fellas, 8th and 10th, who flew to Gartmore  with another Rev back then to get an OK to go around the overturned eighteen wheel "Yuk" twig, or get instructions on what to do. 

They wanted to see Geer. These three were doing the run around on their higher ups at HQ. Another mutiny inside a mutiny like the little Russian dolls. The one where DWBH was confronting all of 'em seems like.  They were going to wrest back this "thing"  away from them, or do whatever had to be done, and get it back on track. And, it would have been just as awful. Firstly, DWBH would have had to confront at least one of them, too. That was a sprout of the first offshoot...it died.

Asked my old Bro' in person 3 years ago, "Why did you go?"

"To find out how to save the minus-try." Said his plan had always been a "career" in the minus-try. He had climbed up to Limb Coor. by '85.

"So, what did he tell you? Anything? Or, did he just sorta' look at you with that psychzoid I'm getting revelation don't mess with me kinda' look?" Hardly nothing, he says....a whole week! Hope they were Scotch drinkers! Hope it wasn't raining on your parade there in sunny Scotland!

Honestly? It's really kinda' super hard to see miracles and have joy and love and those things without the Holy Spirit, who, best guess, had to grievingly depart from Twit, if it ever was really there much at all because of the corruption and sin. But, to me,  most especially, the Holy Spirit had to leave because of the denial of Who Jesus really is...the Christ...the Logos in Person! Not a Book. Found in That Book...not the Book. Knows my name, every hair counted, loves me as the Good Shepherd that He is, Was, Always shall be. Mine. His.

He's spoken of in the banned books section of the Twit archives: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's where I met Him before the way. He's still there.

And, it seems, from what I've read, it didn't take long after the first coups of Heefner and Doop (not quite my time yet) for the fabric to begin to fray.

Anyway, Grace, thank you. Boy, I sailed away on that one. 

On 3/4/2019 at 12:54 AM, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Engine, I thought JCOP was a great book; it was so well-written.  What a mind-blowing read.  I knew VPW didn't write it, the moment I started reading it.  His books were garbage, and painful to read.  The one "Ministry" book I wish I had kept was JCOP, but somehow I lost in in my travels.

Hi Grace,

Yes, it was WRITTEN. And, my belief, having been a hometown boy with Chip, a little time at WVU with him, and knowing his reputation for "smarts," is that he was the "brains" behind this operation.

Penworks,  DWBH, and others know that no credits were ever given to anyone. EVER. Just some "aid." Chip left I think around 1980, was 6th, and went onto get his PhD in Humanities and started a teaching career. It was 1995 or so that I spoke with him again, and though he was seriously stunned and shocked that  I was "still thinking about that junk??!!", he graciously filled me in on a few things.

For those who care to know, he had started a young family by that time, and was happy.

On 3/4/2019 at 3:49 PM, Twinky said:

One thing I saw in this that I haven't heard before - "gambling in Las Vegas" - and big betting implied.  What's that all about?

I don't know, Twinky. But, a good guess is someone here knows more about all that. LOL.

12 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Y

Many attribute The Red Thread teaching as one of wierwille's great teachings..........yet, he stole it from Oral Roberts.

........start  listening at 37:35 and *hear the original* in all its glory!!

Thanks, Skyrider.

I found it years ago by Oral, and boy, he was good. 

I've been catching up on threads, and not only do I like the divergent views, I am glad to see it here among all of us.....most of the time...lol.

And maybe Christopher Watkins? Family.

And, I heard the same story...Pentagon encloses Pentagram. Five Ministries surround and hem in dat debbil, and LOL, dem debbil spurts! Hah.

On 5/12/2018 at 11:55 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

JCOP was the first book that was NOT based solely on transcripts of dic’s teachings. As a matter of fact, the body of the contents as well as the vast majority of it were NOT contributed by dictor at all! I can honestly say that the only thing dictor wrote in that book was the dedication! LOL!

I helped with JCOP in the summer of 1978 in Gunnison. It was a Family Camp, and the theme or whatever was something like, "The Last Week of Jesus Christs' Life."  I guess 100 plus of us?

I recall vpw there of course, Walter?, but for sure Chip Stansbrry. Chip was my Twig coor.

What we did every morning and afternoon was have twigs just for study. We spread all around the grounds. 2 or 3 casual hours each time, all week. Each twig did the same. We simply read through all the gospels line byline AFTER, in my case, Chip taught us Passover, the days, customs, and so on. He made sure we had it. That was the first morning session. The start and end of the Hebrew days, and so on. Timelines. It was meticulous work.  THEN, 

We started at John 12:1...6 days before Passover.  We used that verse as our "origin." Chip gave us some work sheets broken into days, and we used it for our timelines witht he verse, and so on. We proceeded through the other areas verse by verse, word by word at times, comparing similar, and sometimes not identical, records or passages/ verses at the same time, carefully watching our timelines, and Chip would ask our opinions on how we were reading it: Did we consider this? What about this? Did we have anything to add? And, we usually did, and Chip would look at you and listen, nod his head, and scribble it down in his notes. We met under the cottonwood trees in lawn chairs. Most of the twigs did. 10 twigs? It was FUN! Sweet. 

After that week was up, never heard anything until it was published. Pretty much what we all saw. I am not confident in a couple of areas, 6 denials of Peter for one, but Chip was OK with it years later when i had an opportunity to speak with him. Me? I don't know. That week was my inspiration to go into the corps, and I did.

It's the only twit book I have. I tossed mine with everything else back around '87. Then ten years later I had a question and needed that book. I said, "WTF?!" and got a copy from ebay. LOL