LornaDoone

The purpose of this thread is to invoke some new thought on some of the postings over the past few years regarding Plagiarism. I offer food for thought and know this is a little long but it is my hope to put to rest some of the controversy from the past.

While browsing Mel Gibsons new website for his forthcoming movie "The Passion of Christ"

www.thepassionofchrist.com , I came across a web-site with some interesting views on Plagiarism that I thought would be of interest to some.

So my "food for thought". If God inspires his people through his gift of holy spirit

(" Peter 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.")

to write classes, sermons etc., who really owns those teachings and sharings.

When we share with someone the greatness of God's Word, we are all gleaning excerpts from those that have taught and preached to us as well as The Holy Spirit who works in us.

"Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

God is the one that "sends" us to preach and bring glad tidings of good things.

So my questions is if God inspires us to preach & teach to move the Word, this is HIS goal, we respond and obey. Do we not want the Word that we speak to give insight to the novice to be spoken again and again to accomplish that which GOD wants.

Isaiah 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto ME void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I SENT IT.

So when we speak God's word it is really God the author of his Word that is speaking through us, so how can anyone lay claim to "their sermon, their class, their preaching". In the scripture above we know God does not have a mouth, he uses our heart and mouth by our free will with the spirit of God in us. God also guarantees the results of HIS Word not returning void.

"Matthew 10:19  But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

Mark 13:11  But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."

Even in these trying times, the whole purpose for God working through them was to be a witness.

So I ask you, if one person benefits from a work that someone does (inspired by God) regarding God's Word, it is absolutely what God wanted. It would be very selfish for me or anyone else to teach the Word and say that I own or copywrite my teaching when in essence it is God who is the author working thru me.

Deuteronomy 4:10  Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear MY words, (THRU WHO?)that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may "teach their children."

Isaiah 51:16  And I have put MY words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Isaiah 59:21  As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and MY words which I have PUT in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Jeremiah 1:9  Then the LORD put forth his hand, and TOUCHED MY mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put MY words in thy mouth.

When Moses wrote the 10 commandments on the tablets, did he lay claim to owning what he wrote, did he copywrite the tablets? The answer is clearly NO. Is it not therefore egotistical to put one's claim to the things of God that are freely given to people by God and for someone to take credit and glory for the spirit of God working in them, when it works in all God's children who are walking in tune with him. Did the "holy men of God spake" copywrite their materials?

Just for some insight I will paste the following from a link from Mel Gibson's new movie website:

About Using Sermons on SermonCentral.com www.SermonCentral.com

©opyItRight:

How to Use Other Preachers? Material Without Compromising Your Integrity

by Brian Mavis

?All work and no plagiarism makes for dull sermons!?

Henry Ward Beecher

?Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed.?

Proverbs 15:22

Is Using Other Preachers? Sermons OK?

Have you ever wondered if researching other preachers? sermons for your own sermon preparation was wrong? What about reading or listening to just one other preacher?s sermon? Or what if you used someone?s outline, or main idea, or illustrations ? or even most of someone else?s sermon? Where is the line, and have you ever wondered if you crossed it?

Even people who think that they are being completely original are probably not quite right. Some copy ideas without even knowing it. Rick Warren (a very copied preacher) is known for saying, ?If you take an idea from one person it is called plagiarism. If you take ideas from a number of people it is called research.? Ironically, even that was said before by US playwright Wilson Mizner (1876-1933). He said, ?Copy from one, it?s plagiarism; copy from two, it?s research.? John F. Kennedy is credited for saying, ?Ask not what your country can do for you ? ask what you can do for your country.? But it was really his ghostwriter, John Kenneth Galbraith, who wrote it. And Galbraith may have lifted the idea from Oliver Wendell Holmes who said, ?We... recall what our country has done for each of us, and to ask ourselves what we can do for our country in return.?

As the manager of the largest sermon resource site on the Internet, I deal with the pros and cons of using material from other pastor?s sermons on a daily basis. I get emails worldwide from pastors saying how reading other pastors? sermons has helped them as a person and as a preacher. But occasionally I uncover someone who has submitted a plagiarized sermon and is probably preaching it as if they wrote it.

Relying on Other Preachers? Sermons is Common

Researching other preachers? sermons is not new. Sermons have been printed in books for centuries, and sermons on tapes have been abundant for decades. But with the advent of the Internet, researching and copying other preachers? sermons is easier and more common than ever. Last week SermonCentral was used over 170,000 times. It is the most popular online sermon resource site, but it certainly isn?t the only one. Just that fact alone proves there are a lot of pastors looking for sermon help.

Advantages of Sermon Resource Sites

There are different reasons preachers rely on other people?s sermons ? some good, some bad. Some benefits of sermon resource sites are:

1. They can help you write a better sermon, which can lead more people to know and grow in Christ.

2. They can give you other perspectives and help you grow in your knowledge of God.

3. They can give you the benefit of other pastors? research and resources.

4. They can help you save time.

5. They can help you with better big ideas, outlines and illustrations.

Disadvantages of Sermon Resource Sites

Some detriments of sermon resource sites are:

1. They can lead to laziness.

2. They can shortchange your personal conviction that comes with struggling over a passage.

3. They can prevent you from taking into account your congregation?s need, which produces generic sermons.

4. They can tempt you to take false credit for a sermon.

Because reading, listening, researching, and relying on other preachers? sermons is so widespread, and because it has potential for such great benefit or detriment, it is important to do it right and for the right reasons.

What Not To Do

1. Don?t wait until Saturday to begin your sermon preparation. (Preparing a good sermon is like brewing good coffee ? it needs time to percolate.)

2. Don?t go to a sermon resource site and just print off a sermon and read it.

3. Don?t retell a story as if it happened to you.

What To Do

1. First, go to God and ask Him what He wants to say to your congregation.

2. Study the Bible passage on your own before you rely on someone else?s study.

3. Apply the passage to your life ? walk what you are going to talk.

4. With the passage in your heart, and your congregation in mind, discern the main thing (just one thing) you want to say and how you want to say it.

5. Now you can look at other sources. Be open to any better ideas, clearer ways to say things, missed points, and superior illustrations.

6. In your personal notes, cite your sources.

7. When you go to preach, reference your resources. If you just have some common illustrations, ideas, or quotes, there is no need to clutter your sermon with, ?I got this information from?.? But if you have used a significant idea, outline, illustration, or section (and even an entire sermon), give credit where credit is due. You can either mention something before the sermon or in the midst of it. You can also handle this by placing a note in the bulletin. For example you can say something like, ?In my research for this sermon, I used Chuck Swindoll?s outline from his sermon called God is Good.?

The widespread use of gleaning from other people?s sermons is here to stay. The goal is to use the resource wisely and well. To cheat your congregation by overusing sermon resources is wrong. But it can be equally as wrong to avoid using them because of pride, and possibly cheat your congregation out of a better message. The Good News combined with good resources is a powerful combination for reaching your congregation and community for Christ.

Lorna.......love my cookies!

BTY

Have you checked out the official website of TWI II lately. It reeks of documents from HEW & VPW's transfer of the property deeds. Now are they that lame that new people really care where the property came from. Like maybe they are trying on their website to throw some more digs and splash on how gooey the believers are. I agree with the post that ALL the "wonderful, sincere" present BOT's should have the same heart and deed over all their properties and inheritances. Maybe the Word would move. NOT

HARVE, FEAR IN THE HEART OF A MAN BRINGETH A SNARE...........ARE YOU TRUSTING IN THE LORD.

Barfffffffffffff!

Lorna.......love my cookies!

1. Regarding TWI II's obligations to Mrs. Wierwille..........hey remember how much cashola they get in. They could find the money if they wanted to, just don't want to.

If you want to know the real reason "TWI II" can't get it together, this came to me today in an e-mail, while I was praying in the spirit. I love it, love it, love it.

One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were

spotlessly clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an

equally worn out bible.

The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the town. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. The people of the congregation were all dressed with expensive clothes and accessories.

As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were all appalled at his

appearance and did not attempt to hide it.

The preacher gave a long sermon about Hellfire and brimstone and a stern lecture on how much money the church needed to do God's work.

As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back in here again, have a talk with God and ask him what He thinks would be appropriate attire for worship."

The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.

The next Sunday, he showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again he was completely shunned and ignored.

The preacher approached the man and said, "I thought I asked you to speak to God before you came back to our church."

"I did," replied the old cowboy.

"If you spoke to God, what did he tell you the proper attire should be for worshiping in here?" asked the preacher.

"Well, sir, God told me that He didn't have a clue what I should wear. He says He's never been here before."

Lorna.......love my cookies!

First of all I apologize for the length of this but I'm boiling.

Just like Chas Farley, I have not had an opportunity to read all the forum and I hope this is not a repeat of someone else but I'm glad this is continuing because it's still the truth that counts.

One thing in HARV's letter that really got my blood boiling..

"The Board of Directors? memo to The Way Corps states that ?it will not be necessary for The Way International or any member of Mrs. Wierwille?s family to use any of their assets to pay for her care.? Based on our understanding of the facts, we stand by this statement.

It is interesting that your open letter does not dispute this fact. Nowhere in your letter do you state that it will be necessary for either you or other family members to contribute financial resources to cover your mother?s medical expenses."

"HERE IT COMES***"

"As indicated in our memo, the nursing home has confirmed that in the unlikely event a shortfall were to occur, Mrs. Wierwille will qualify for health care benefits offered by the government that will cover any shortfall. Using your words, your mother will be ?seen to? for life."

HOLY SMOKE IS THIS OFF THE WORD AND DR. WIERWILLES ORIGINAL INTENTIONS FOR THEIR CARE FOR HER. HE JUST LOVED THE GOVERNMENT IN HIS BUSINESS???NOT

NOW THE GOVERNMENT'S GONNA STEP IN TO TAKE CARE OF MRS. WIERWILLE? THAT'S THEIR SOLUTION TO KEEPING THEIR MILLIONS? NOT GOD, AS THEY PROPOUND TO REPRESENT, BUT THE GOVERNMENT.

This is called MEDICAID folks when a person gets to that point, they are POOR, no $'S. Well, talk about THE ADVERSARY negating someone's LIFE LONG MINISTRY to have MRS. WIERWILLE have to be supported by the GOVERNMENT in a program that does not even cover certain new medications and treatments should they be necessary. HELLO, THIS IS THE SAME AS WELFARE. DR. WIERWILLE LOVED WELFARE!! NOT!! ARE THEY SO FAR IN LALA LAND....SICK JERKS.

SO THE WAY INTERNATIONAL HAS 'POTENTIALLY' PUT MRS. WIERWILLE IN A POSITION TO BE TOSSED TO THE GOVERNMENT'S CARE. Hey HARVE, YOU THE CHURCH are supposed to take care of the widows, you darn well take good care of the PEOPLE YOU LIKE; DM, etc.

Watch out DM, your meal ticket may be short too.

How sick is that, THEY ARE REALLY SICK, SICK, SICK!!! I AM SURE IT'S NOT BURDEN TO THE WIERWILLE FAMILY TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR MOTHER BY ANY MEANS, BUT MRS. WIERWILLE IS ENTITLED TO SOME OF THE BUCKS YOU HARVE SPEND ON YOURSELF AND THE REST OF THE LITTLE GREEDYS. I think a million dollars would not be to much of a settlement to Mrs. Wierwille for her years of service that probably only worked out to 5 cents an hour for years & years. How about it BOT, get the moths out.

Interesting there have not been many healings there for a long time, wonder why?

So Harve when are you going to ELEVATE CHRIST AS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH....? You are all so far off your rockers, you might as well join the Moonies

BOY OH BOY YOU $ISS ME OFF AND I WANT MY GOD, THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH TO MAGNIFY HIMSELF TO YOU HARVE AND ALL THE REST AT TWI: IN A BIG WAY..................

Sick, Sick, Sick

When are you Way Believer's gonna wake up and get the hell out of that evil dumb scripture quoting devilish place and really begin to live the Word again like THE REST OF US HAVE ALL SEEN.

2 Corinthians 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Lorna Doone............

[This message was edited by LornaDoone on November 17, 2003 at 1:36.]

[This message was edited by LornaDoone on November 17, 2003 at 18:16.]

Can't believe it, heard about Joe today. He dedicated and married my children. Ruthie you have our deepest sympathy. I remember when I found your lovely family photo on your dad's web site. There are no words right now; we are all in shock. Know that you, your children and family are in our prayers

Lorna.......love my cookies!

BOWTWI to hear what you went through. I am fairly new to gs but have read many of the posts. I can sympathize wtih all you went through. They really treated the children the worst. In one sense they say you're the best, then they tear them down for being kids.

Sick, sick, sick.

love,

Lorna

[This message was edited by LornaDoone on June 25, 2002 at 20:38.]