Captain Crunch

Hello, All! Sorry I have been away, too busy. It took me quite awhile to read and catch up. As the economy worsens I spend much more time making ends meet. I heard that John Lynn and Elizabeth had reconciled. I am very happy about that. Elizabeth really fought for that. I have also heard that there is no longer much mention of these issues and that everything is pretty much business as usual at CES. This concerns me. There is no response from John Lynn, John Schoenheit, Dan Gallagher, or the Theisens to this group. DWBH has posted some reasonable questions. I do understand, though. GSC is a really rough group. Most everyone here is relatively anonymous and we want one or all of the CES principals to speak straight and out in the open. That is pretty scary. Someone might say B*S* in response to a post. Or worse, write a critical response. I can't help but think that Paul would speak the truth in love. But when I think of what might be the terrible downside of posting here, I get: 1. You cannot control the direction of the replies. 2. You might be really embarrassed and hurt by the responses. 3. If you are unstable, you might commit suicide. 4. Someone might try to sue you. GSC is a lot easier than being on the hotseat at Momentus. Answering these questions of DWBH's could be done without eliciting a lawsuit: 1)What is your ministry's current teaching regarding the use or misuse of "personal prophecy"? 2)What is your ministry's current position regarding [*] the application of the "gift ministry" of a prophet? What have you learned or "unlearned" [*]? *reference to individuals removed 3)What do you believe your ministry's responsibility is to your followers regarding an explanation of "what went wrong"? what have you done to correct any wrong doctrine or practice? 4)How will your ministry's leadership function differently in the future? In your opinion, have you or do you need to change how your leadership functions as prophets, teachers, pastors or evangelists? 5)Do you still publicly or privately promote the Momentous "training" to your followers? [OrJohn Pezzi's "training"] if yes, why? if no, why not? 6)Who is currently on your board of directors? Your prophetic council? According to JAL from his December 26, 2006 letter that Jeff posted for him: In this letter he only addresses "this heart-rending situation" of the board members disagreeing. Boy, that sure is heart-rending. <_< NOT! What was done to Elizabeth, and others, was heart-rending. I am looking forward to receiving your next letter "given the way that documents such as this somehow wind up on the Internet" so that we can see how you have changed your heart and your ways since you have realized the problem was a lot bigger than a disagreement among the BOD. I started this topic almost a year ago because I saw that people were being hurt in CES and the powerbrokers there were too self protective and self serving to hear anything from disenters. I have heard that there has been repentance and reconciliation going on. I have heard that as soon as the Graesers are out totally there will be openness and honesty for all. I hope that is true. But what we want to hear here is some "light" and JAL's or any BOD members "perspective of the [truly] heart rending situation" of people that have been used and tossed aside. Sure it will be painful. But you will not be physically crucified. You can only share in part with the sufferings of Christ. My fervent prayer is that you reply.

I heard that although there was a negotiation meeting proposed by the CES Board Members, John Lynn and Jeff Blackburn, the Graeser's and Resner's declined to meet so the lawsuits will be proceeding. I do not know what the court dates are yet. CC

Linda, and anyone else confused about who started all this on GS. I posted first. And as I have gotten new info I have attempted to post more. I am not someone high in CES. But I do care deeply about those that are and everyone who thought CES would be different. I am just someone prayfully doing what he can with what he has. I heard the buzz that CES leaders thought the problem was only a few months old. But I became aware of it when John Lynn divorced his 2nd wife after only a year and a half. Read the documents in the "Read the Facts First" thread. There are a lot of lurkers reading these documents who are quietly praying and acting accordingly. Just because they don't post doesn't mean that nothing is happening. I am sure this is impacting everyone involved. CC

We would not use testimony from the forum. But if someone PM'd me or I PM'd them after posting, we would have them write a letter. This is what happened on Waydale, remember? CC

As soon as a complaint is filed it is public record unless it is about an adoption or child abuse, etc. I imagine the Graesers are using GS as evidence. Jeff just needs to prove he said nothing false, which I do not think will be difficult. But the lawsuit lists 36 "facts" supporting the Graeser's claim. I think most of their claims are false. I hope some people here will help with that. CC

Please keep this thread serious. As soon as I get the public record of each lawsuit I will post it. At the moment what is needed are witnesses who can speak against #25 in Mark Graeser and Karen Anne Graeser vs Jeff Backburn. It states: If you can provide evidence of the contrary, please post it here or PM me. I am sure each letter will help. I think the other lawsuits probably have the same statement. Thank you! CC

They are PDFs. They still work for me. Try downloading the newest Adobe Acrobat Reader here: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

Found this in a search of Earlham College. Looks like Mark has been going there since 2001. Here he shares about it... Searching For Truth Wherever It Can Be Found CC

It is amazing what one can find with a search engine... If you want to have these, download them now. I bet Mark bullies them to take them down. Arguing by Force, Fear, Intimidation [Or Lawsuit] PDF More Ethics by Mark... Being Truthful: The First Rung of Christian Ethics PDF Ethical Reflections: Ethics & Logic PDF CC

I was surfing the WWW and came across this site which contains some interesting information about CES, Momentus and Personal Prophesy including old posts from CES' message board. The old message board posts are near the bottom. Some of the links are broken, but the ones that aren't, are pretty interesting. http://ex-ces.faithweb.com/custom4.html. Somewhere I heard that CES claims that only 2% of the 1200 CES followers that took the Momentus training were disatisfied. I will try to find that. Oh, I think it is in this interview, pg 26: http://www.excultworld.com/interviews/ces%20interview.htm Does anyone now when this interview was done? I found this quote by Mark Graeser to be interesting, end of page 22: You heard him, he is INVITING this kind of scrutiny. He wants to know how he shows up. CC

Maybe this will tell you what you want to know... Excerpts from Prophecy: Understanding and Utilizing the Manifestation of Prophecy CC

That is why when I first posted this, I named the thread: CES is in a Mess. Of course it is a crisis for Mark who may have to wash windows again. And it is a crisis for the people named in the defamation of character lawsuits. These would be definition number 2 or 3 below. But for CES as a group, it is a crisis using definition number 1. Here are some definitions from dictionary.com: 1. a stage in a sequence of events at which the trend of all future events, esp. for better or for worse, is determined; turning point. 2. a condition of instability or danger, as in social, economic, political, or international affairs, leading to a decisive change. 3. a dramatic emotional or circumstantial upheaval in a person's life. 4. Medicine/Medical. a. the point in the course of a serious disease at which a decisive change occurs, leading either to recovery or to death. b. the change itself. 5. the point in a play or story at which hostile elements are most tensely opposed to each other. –adjective 6. of, referring to, or for use in dealing with a crisis. CC

As I have seen it done and heard people in CES use the term, Personal Prophesy is requested. If you ask for prayer someone may prophesy, also. I have never heard one be negative, although, if you had an axe to grind, you could. Just as in a meeting, if you were to give a Word of Prophesy, you could say, "The Lord your God is damning you all to Hell!" After which you would be suspect. But the dreams given to Elizabeth were not Personal Prophesy, they were supposedly, "prophetic." These were not requested but delivered by a "prophet," such as Nathan to David. A prophet is supposed to say what God has told them to say. But since the New Birth, He speaks to us first. Elizabeth was well aware they were false. But the others in the inner circle were blind. Hope this helps. CC

Elizabeth recommended these books for those of us that have been close to this insanity. They have helped her recover. Please if you read one, tell me what you think. Christian Psychology's War on God's Word: The Victimization of the Believer by Jim Owen Breaking Christian Curses: Finding Freedom from Destructive Prayers by Dennis Cramer, Francis Frangipane (Foreword by) Confronting Jezebel: Discerning and Defeating the Spirit of Control by Steve Sampson Unmasking the Jezebel Spirit by John Paul Jackson Jezebel, Seducing Goddess of War by Jonas A. Clark CC

Here is the letter from the clergy siding with Mark Graeser and the Dec 11th letter from Mark stating he will not step down. These were sent out before John's christmas letter above. I think Elizabeth's letter in the pinned thread called "The Facts" is still the clearest explanation of what is going on. 2006_12_10_STF_Clergy_Meeting_Report.pdf 2006_12_11_MG_Response_to_Leave__final.pdf

Jeff- I appreciate the posting of John Lynn's letter. But I think it is "too little, too late" to satisfy the questions generated by this thread. Please post your perspective of how John's letter [position paper] about the firings is going to resolve the issues presented by Elizabeth? Better yet, give him a copy of Elizabeth's letter and ask him to read it out loud to you. Then wait for his reaction. Then you will know the truth if you ask God for discernment. Be a minister to John. He is no one to be worshipped. You are his equal. It is not how much of the Word that you know, but rather how much of it you live. John- I can imagine the turmoil you must feel that Elizabeth's letter has been posted here. And I am sorry that it had to be posted before it had any impact. But you had plenty of time to deal with it before I ever saw it. The excerpts above show that you think this problem began only 7 months ago so that tells me you don't think Karen Anne and the prophets of doom influenced your divorce. I think anyone who has read the documents can see that they did. I am disappointed that you are "weeping for your friends" on the board, but not for your wife and others who have seen this abuse first hand ever since the board began looking to become a church and needing to control others. When CES was just an educational organization they just sold books and tapes so no need to control, only market. I am sure that it is difficult to go to the place of dispair necessary to repent for what you have allowed and what you have done. I pray you do and that you find a true friend with which to do it. From your position paper, I do not see that you have done that, rather you are analyzing the less painful situation. I can understand that. It is safer. Perhaps as I write, you are now looking at the deeper issues, the truely heart-rending issues. CC

Just to clarify- Calling Mark's attempted kiss, "sexual involvement," is an overstatement and likely to be construed as an affair. He was married and approached Elizabeth to kiss her. She rebuffed him, the end. CC

Jeff- I really think JAL should give you a letter to post, as I posted Elizabeth's letter, rather than insert your self into it. All Elizabeth wanted was an answer from John. When it was ignored and she had no recourse within CES, she went to the greater church. And I see this as an avenue to the greater church. CC

According to Paul... II Cr 4:2-3 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. My conscience is stirred to make the hidden things known so the guilty will repent and receive mercy. CC

ChasUFarley asked: What's Elizabeth's background? I am pretty sure she is ex-TWI. She was a good friend of Karen Anne Graeser's in Florida What's this "deliverance session? How's it set up or what's the procedure? How is this based on scripture? I haven't experienced a "deliverance session." Dan Gallagher is the specialist in this. I hope he posts a description. Many churches have deliverance ministries. Do they teach on grace, love, and forgiveness anymore? Or just this stuff? Yes, take a look at TruthVSTradition.com to see the variety of subjects they teach on. This prophesy council/dreams stuff is a blot. I hope to see public repentance for it from all who are convicted by the Lord. II Tim 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was. Come on you CES principals. I know you're reading this. Post a defense. Be brave. Afraid of a little flame? CC

Thanks Jeff for posting everyone's email addresses. You missed Mark's - mark@stfonline.org and the Resner's - my guess is tom@stfonline.org Email today and you, too, can get your email address blocked CC

Radar and any one else that is concerned - Elizabeth sent these documents to about 100 people and asked us to circulate them so other people would not be hurt. I have heard that she is happy that the word is getting out. CC

Please post in the other thread [CES is in a Mess] Thanks! CC

Wow! I go away for a day and look at all the posts! Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest. I didn't expect such a response. I posted a new topic just for the documents so if you tell someone to check this thread out, ask them to read the documents first so they won't send the thread off topic or be unnecessarily confused. I have to read some more to get caught up with all the posts. :-) CC

Before you post to the thread CES is in a Mess, please read these documents. For a detailed analysis by Dr. John Juedes, please read this article. click here Thanks! CC This is the post that Mark S did on an email that he sent to 3 board members in November, 2000 Mark S's email This is the prophecy about Elizabeth Lynn dated 4/22/2003 prophecy about E Lynn This is the letter that Elizabeth Lynn sent to John Lynn 12/2005 and her coverletter to brothers/sisters in Christ dated 4/2006 E. Lynn's Letter to John Lynn This is the report from the Clergy meeting on 12/10/2006 Clergy Meeting Report This is the response by Mark Graeser to leave dated 12/11/2006. Mark Graeser's Response This is John Lynn's Letter of 12/26/2006 John Lynn's Letter