therebutforgrace

I agree with Raf, ex10. Post on!

Thanks Abigail. Can't we all just get along? OK, we can't. Well, can we move it to another thread?

Welcome, lagates. I just made a post on the other thread directing people to come back here. It's a different atmosphere over here...one where people who have been through things like this help other people get through it. I agree with your post. I, too, spoke up in CES. And I will so very glad when the evil ends. I don't think they meant to cause evil. But they still caused it. This is a place you can say whatever you like...no Marking and Avoiding you here at the GSC! Post on!!

To all CESers reading this far..... I have been one of you. I love the people involved. If you have not read Threads #1 and 2, you need to stop and go there, then come back here if you like.. #1..... THE FACTS <<<click there were posted on Dec 16 and expose some of CES' leaders' activities which were probably hidden from you. The people who are writing on this 3rd thread have already decided they think CES’ words and actions were, to say the least, ungodly; thus the tone of this thread..... But you need to decide for yourself if you think these activities were godly or ungodly, becoming or not becoming of the leadership you choose to follow, fulfilling or not fulfilling of God's qualifications for leaders, etc....so please Read #1. #2 CES Is In a Mess <<<click there has many wonderfully constructive, biblically sound and very helpful comments about what was exposed, written by people who love God and who have themselves been through and also helped others get through upheavals of this nature. This 3rd thread which you are reading now began only yesterday, 12-26, when John L. sent his letter out to people interested in CES and it was posted here for anyone else to read. This 3rd thread, in my frank opinion, could lead you to decide we are gossipers who could 'take you out' and that you should therefore return to CES-dom at once. And no one on this thread would want to be the cause of that! The truth is that #1 and #2 have exposed clear-cut facts...things which have occurred in your organization. Things which were called godly by your leadership. These facts are not the whole mess...but they are symptomatic of it. Read them and decide if you think they are godly. Decide if you think your BOD/Staff needs to repent (publicly for public sins and privately for private sins) or step down. NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained. Perhaps you, too, have seen ungodliness and have spoken up about it. Many of us have and were discounted, dismissed, M&A'd or otherwise attacked and discredited among our families and our friends. Exposing these facts should lead to the end...the VERY LONG OVERDUE END...of that. Therefore, many of us praise God that these facts no longer remain hidden. Please go to THE FACTS <<<click here and then to CES Is In a Mess <<< click here and decide for yourself what action you should take....in addition to fervent prayer for all involved.

Hi WW, You wrote.....Either JAL wrote this with the express purpose of seeing it appear here, or he didn't. I was once taught never to say there are only 2 options to something...can't say as I heeded the advice all my life, but it does apply here. JAL's letter said he learned about the BOD fight in September, spent I guess Sept, Oct and Nov looking into it and writing his thoughts....and then on Dec-something 9? he read it to MG. BUT....CC didn't post "The Elizabeth Papers" on GSC until Dec 16. So he wrote it, it appears, with the express purpose of trying to get his friend to see the error of his ways and change (as many of us are trying to do with the whole BOD!). But...since GS came into play on Dec 16, when he finally sent it out...on 12-26.....he added a P.S. to us. There is much amiss here already...we don't have to make up more. You wrote....Plus, it says that the people who were HARMED over the past 20 years are an acceptable consequence for defending 'the ministry', since this thing seems to ONLY have positive results on people. Sadly, you are correct that the fruit shows they have lived this way......yet the CES leaders I know don't actually think that 'hurt people are acceptable consequences' for anything. That's my point. They haven't "gotten" it yet. Was it OODF or Abigail who said she was so pleased she could read the E Papers and see them clearly.....since she's been so far away from the cult mentality for so long? Many of us have written that we are amazed we ever believed this or participated in that....but we did. Well, these guys still do. These guys have not been away from the cult mentality yet at all. OK, so they said they had, but we can see the fruit showing they haven't. So.....we can attack or we can speak up here (some of them are reading it) and we can pray I'm glad someone prayed for me. I'd had enough attacking for several lifetimes. With God nothing is impossible. So I shall continue to pray that all of these people get back to being with Him.

Thanks, Paw. Ductape asked.....Did any of the board stand up and tell JAL he was going down the wrong freaking road? If not one stood and spoke for God then what makes you all so sure the right path can be found by the same bunch that ...either consented to the divorce ...or stood by silently and allowed it to happen. to which I add... ...or actually encouraged it (because the ‘prophecies’ showed how hopeless it was) ...or helped him write his divorce letter (never telling her this letter was even being considered, let alone that they were among its drafters) ...or has, during the time since the divorce, held up his divorce as an example to encourage other believers to divorce ...or, for that matter, allowed or took part in the ‘reproof‘ (read ‘punishment’) E received for sharing her anguish with 2-3 close friends, telling them that these ‘prophecies’ could not be of God ...or allowed or took part in the Board decision that E could not know who gave the ‘prophecies’ because it ‘would not serve her’ ...or allowed or took part in KA’s frenzy that JAL and E were forbidden to show the ‘prophecies’ to anyone (since they ‘didn’t have all the facts so they couldn’t understand’) ...or spoke up at Board meetings/conference calls muzzling E by saying she should not be able to attend this meeting or that function (to protect the ministry against her ‘attack on the prophetic’) ...or later 'strongly encouraged' E to write a 'good faith' letter of repentance for speaking against the ‘prophecies,’ including an admission that they were true, so CES could use her letter ‘to help the ministry’ since she had 'caused damage' among the believers ...or signed his/her name to the cruel letters to E throughout this nightmare and finally the M&A letter about her ...or was so spiritually dull of heart, so self-centered, so busy ‘doing the work of the ministry’ or whose love had waxed so cold that they did not know these things were occurring. I and II TImothy are not hard to understand.....the above ungodly conduct clearly disqualifies all who engaged in it from being someone God instructs me to follow. Hopefully no more evil will need to be exposed before true humility/repentance/change begins. And that repentance/change will not be hard to see. As the BOD/Staff/followers realize the evil of even some of their ways and humble themselves before God and their faith community, they will make remorse-filled calls, emails, letters, and/or visits not only to E but also to the many others who have been discouraged, slandered, browbeaten, run off, fired or lied about during their watch. Because I love the people involved, and because I want ALL to be redeemed from the hand of the enemy and because I want God to get all the glory, the minute I hear that even the smallest part of this victory over evil has begun...I will report to GS so we can all praise God together.

Dear Joeoday, whoever you might be. Thank you for listening. So many things come to mind from your posts. So... very... many.... What to do? Where to begin? Well, I shall just start...and I shall number them as I go. #1 of ........so very many. You asked... ”...how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. ... I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not.” To which I reply... GreaseSpot allows for any hidden thing to be brought to light, for each poster to be equal, and for every CESer to become informed and involved if he so chooses. Writing the BOD allows it to keep things secret, discount certain believers, pick and choose what it informs CESers of, inflict its retaliation, browbeat and M&A, and finally, sweep whatever it chooses right back under a...new...rug. P.S. If pen and paper is preferred, you have my permission to print out any of my posts and mail them in for me.

BillyD, you've got guts, and it's great and I accept your Merry Christmas blessing. Back at ya'! Abigail, you are 100% correct. I did not write that clearly, as I was getting ready to leave for the evening. What I meant was .... the fact that they need to replace a President--even if it's not an amiable replacement--is not a crisis. It's a normal part of organizations with Presidents. The attitudes that would lead to calling it a crisis are the EXACT REASON THEY ARE IN what they call a crisis. These Cult Attitudes would include, but certainly not be limited to... a) they need their salary, position or image, so they fight from selfish, fearful pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down"! or b) they think God needs the organization ("the ministry I love"), so they fight from selfish, religious pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down! Neither attitude (or any other cult attitude) has anything to do with "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for leaders to live from. Neither even has to do with "love one another as I have loved you", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for every believer to live from. There have been crises in CES and there are crises in it today. Those holier-than-thou attitudes, though...the ones yet to be publically repented of...are the attiudes which SPAWNED them all. Strife in CES is not a crisis...anyone with non-cult eyes would call it a hallmark. What has been a crisis are the wrecked marriages, wrecked families, wrecked friendships, wrecked jobs, wrecked dreams, wrecked hopes, wrecked P-E-O-P-L-E. What is now a crisis is how FAR from the simplicity in Christ the Gs have gotten and that their children are being put through a crisis they had no cause in! What is a crisis is that the other CES leaders are no closer but appear to be thinking they are. CRISES have to do with PEOPLE, not jobs. PEOPLE, not organizations. PEOPLE, not moving the Word over the world. I don't call this exposing of evil a crisis. As I've said before, I call it an answer to prayer.

Paradiseden...and everyone else... The "current crisis at CES" is an administrative crisis. For those who may lose a salary, it could also be a financial crisis. For those followers thinking CES was the solution to TWI, it is also a crisis of worldview. For those leaders believing CES is God's vanguard to get His Truth to the world, it is a monumental crisis. For anyone sincerely fighting "for the ministry they love," it is no doubt one of the biggest crises of their lives. NOTE: The last 3 groups can be helped out of their crises if they will hear some of the GSers' been-there-woke-up words posted here in this answer-to-prayer forum. It's been well said here more than once: we don't serve a risen organization. Back to the "current [administrative] crisis in CES". Many companies have them. >>>>>And no, they don't put it on their websites.<<<<< If the company survives the struggle through the crisis, they send out a form letter on company letterhead to interested parties with a one or two sentence-- "Sam Smith, XYZ Widgets' CEO, has left us for personal reasons, and we wish him well" and a 2-3 paragraph-- "We are pleased to announce that we have brought on Bob Jones, from ABC Corp. Bob has 20 years of experience in......." I assume, if CES continues as an organization, they will do the same or perhaps, as has been said, they will make a mid-stream request for input. More on that later. Anyway, there are several diferences between XYZ Widgets and CES, but one of those should be that believers such as you wonderful GSers are praying for godliness in the struggle (thank you socks) and a godly end (thank all of you). THAT SAID.... The "current [administrative] crisis at CES" is but a reaping of the years of crises it has sown into its followers' lives. Has it sown good? Yes it has. I speak from personal experience. Has it sown evil? Yes it has. I speak from personal experience. Did the people intend to sow the evil? Not my call. We are clearly told NOT TO judge hearts and motives... Did they sow evil? Yes they did. We are clearly told TO judge words and actions. We're also clearly told how to humble ourselves, submit to God, repent and get cleansed from all unrighteousness. I pray every Saint who has been involved in it in the smallest way will choose this route out of ALL of the current and future crises in CES...and in life itself.

Cman...Don't know about anyone else here, but you needn't tell me your opinions of Oldies or anyone else. I have Christ in me and He can tell me what I need to know when reading a GreaseSpotCafe post. I may be new, but doesn't it also take us off-topic?

Matthew, how differently we’ve read this thread. I see almost no bitterness and much grace among these believers so I doubt you’ll get flamed.. Perhaps it’s because I’m old enough to be your grandparent. Anyway, let’s chat. You wrote...”I resigned from the office in early November for one very simple reason. I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. Mark is a very different man these days, many will attest to that.“ Others will attest that your boss has not changed much at all. Staff members resigned as many as 15 years ago because they could no longer trust him. When Staff members resigned (or were fired and lied about) after his move to Indpls, still the rest of the Board refused to hear the former Staff member’s grievances and not only continued with business as usual, but allowed your boss to promote himself to BE the boss. You wrote...“As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions.” Our definitions of who should be trusted with leadership should be similar, since God wrote it clearly. As I said in an earlier post, I personally can not call anyone on the CES Board my leader...because they do not measure up to God’s list. Why not start with a blank page and re-read Timothy and make that list. Check it twice since it’s almost Christmas, and see if you come to a different conclusion than you now hold about who should be trusted with leadership. For instance.... 1. Would you say that a person could be trusted with a leadership position if he tells a believer that anything admitted to him in his ‘deliverance session’ will be confidential, but then tells the Board what he learned? Oh, but what if his reason was that “the Ministry needed to know these things.”? 2. How many believers would need to come to you saying that a leader badgered, threatened, browbeat, intimidated, frightened, accused, belittled, dismissed, made inappropriate comments to or verbally attacked them...(generally ‘sliced them up one side and down the other’) for you to say that he could not be trusted with a leadership position? You wrote...“I only see now a few people who have found that they can no longer run from their sins and they are being held to account for them.” Should CES leaders only be held accountable for the sins which CES leaders bring up? If not, then here are some more questions for you and for every CESer reading this post and anyone else considering supporting any church. Please talk these over with non-CES believers with whom you fellowship and whom you trust. REMEMBER: I was a CESer! I love these people! Listen up, CESers! NOW can be the time to redeem our brothers and sisters from destruction! If you were going over a cliff wouldn’t you want us to try to stop you even if you kicked and bit and called us names? 3. How many believers would you say a church leader could refuse to hear grievances from before you’d call it sin? Meaning, if I could show you that XYZ leader has refused to hear from ___ believers through __ years who have lovingly spoken up, written up, called up or emailed up, would you call that arrogance sin for which he, too, should be remorseful and repent? 4. Would you think now might be the time for other CES leaders to learn a lesson here and openly ask for believers to give them feedback? “Please try again, this time I’ll hear you.”? This would need to be done with some amount of mutually-agreed upon semi-public or at least 3rd party involvement so it couldn’t just be swept right back under the rug, of course. Now, I don't know a CES leader who values the opinions of anyone outside CES and since every leader inside CES will be needing to do this it might pose a bit of a logistical problem, but do you think the idea has merit? If you were in leadership would you be willing to hear from your sheep? You wrote....“....you don't run off members you disagree with....” Agreed...and that brings us back to those members who have been run off through the years....will they be welcome back to speak up now? You wrote....“....none of you has the right to make blanket statements and far-fetched assumptions about how the ministry was run by this so-called prophetic guidance. It never has been, and because of the men and women who are taking a stand against Mark, I believe it never will be.” Tomorrow I can give you examples of KA’s word/prophecies/dreams running the ministry. Then again, the Board of Directors could write a list longer than mine. Why not ask them? Why don’t all of you CESers ask all of these questions? Maybe ask.....Which ministry decisions have been according to KA’s ‘word from the Lord’? Which personal decisions have each of you made based on KA’s ‘words from the Lord’? How many believers routinely come to KA asking for a “word from the Lord’? How many have been cornered in order for KA to give them a ‘word from the Lord’? And, to a lesser degree, you could now ask the same of Tom and Susan’s ‘words’. If you get "none', let me know, I'l give you some, and you can ask again. You wrote....“....to the partners and contributors of CES who are already coming here trying to find answers.” PRAISE GOD if this is happening! Welcome, CESers...read on and ASK your LORD what is true here. Then re-read the cover letter of Elizabeth’s letter and follow your own JAL’s example when he heard of evil in TWI. Go to your Lord, go to the Word, then GO TO YOUR LEADERS AND ASK about these things. (Don’t go by yourself, and take a tape recorder with you. If they don’t agree, shake the dust off your feet as you walk away.) You see, folks, as GSCers who are not involved with CES have so biblically stated....this is not only about the Gs. It’s not only about how the Board/Staff treated JAL and Elizabeth. Every Board/Staff member watched and/or participated in that treatment and so did many CESers reading this post. Ouch? OK think about it.....when the entire Board sent out the 7-7-04 M&A letter (..."we suggest that those who consider themselves to be friends of STFI or CES deal with E. in accordance with Rom 16:17,18.....") or when you were told in person or in writing that she was crazy or that she would 'take you out,' did you stay away from her? Did you ever call her? Did you ever write/email her? Did you treat her as Jesus told you to treat her (as you would want to be treated) or as CES told you to treat her.....and with how many other people have you done the same thing?! This is not even only about whether KA ran the ministry with ‘prophecies’. Every Board/Staff member heard her ‘prophecies’ and dreams and visions for years and here we are today with a trail of evil. And that is what this is about. Evil, done in the Name of our Lord. No, this is not a witch hunt, over with when the Gs are fired (pun intended). Well, yes it is too a witch-hunt.....but it will be over with when the leaders HUMBLE THEMSELVES BEFORE THEIR LORD and their victims and allow the HOLY SPIRIT'S fire to cleanse their hearts!

To get back on the topic of CES' doctrines or practices..... I here and now state, from personal experience, that whatever influence was placed upon JAL and E was not new to CES' doctrines and practices. In the last 19? years, it has been placed on JAL and on others in different situations over and over again and this includes up to this very month. It has simply gotten more brazen over time and, as someone said, personal prophecy has allowed it to happen faster. I must leave the Cafe at this present time. I will be back tonight...and I will give clear examples.....but when I do, I request that no one diverts the point from CES' public doctrines and practices into something personal.

Radar, you wrote...."it would have received the SAME RESULTS that you wanted to get.........people coming in to gawk.....but aren't involved and don't have all the facts.......or understanding of the situation. Most people here at gspot aren't cessers.........and have little in common with that organization other than having come from the original "grandparent" cult." I see you 'lived through pop' with many of us. I guess you never had people tell you not only what you think but what kind of person you are or are not. Most everyone I knew in TWI did. So it seems odd to me that these many years later you would think you should tell CC (someone whom you've never met) what he thinks ["the same results that you wanted to get"] and what kind of person he is not, which I won't even quote. Be that as it may, I am praising God for the results I personally know of that actually are occurring from this thread....in.....what, 3 days?! More and more CESers are learning about and reading this thread, and it exposes evil to them so they can make a decision whether to stand with or depart from CES. That, Radar, has been my personal prayer for years and years since seeing what CES leadership's unsound thinking did to people I love. CES cult-members are getting to hear from people outside their cult! That, thank You Lord, is how they just might begin to WAKE UP! And that is the result I want, and the reason I came here. I'd never been to GSC before but heard that Elizabeth's 'side of the story' and KA's 'prophecies' were here. I knew that those 'prophecies' had been for years kept secret under extraordinarily unloving duress, so I jumped into the learning curve to get on GSC. I think each believer here has been superb in his posts. I see compassion, empathy, courage, peacemaking, wisdom, tenderness and humility...in general, I see God's love in action! No one has spewed out prideful pronouncements that we've all been party to receiving from 'leadership' in our Cult-of-choice. (Well, no one before you, that is, Radar. But since I'm a newbie maybe your regular GSCers don't define your post as spewing and it felt that way only to me....so please don't take everyone's time to reprove me for that observation, OK? The rest of what I'm writing is what is important.) Anyway, I'm very thankful to ALL of you GSCers here, more especially if you're not involved with CES, for so obviously caring about your brothers and sisters who are...all of them, from the leadership to the newbie. I tip my hat to all of you. I also praise God for CC's boldness to publicize --a bit-- of what CES leadership has diligently hidden from CES 'membership'. I like your idea, Garth, of getting out as much of what is true as possible. Of course much of Elizabeth's letter is personal and I shouldn't have had to hear it. In a perfect world it wouldn't have needed to be written, but this is not a perfect world and we have a very personal enemy. I, for one, am grateful to learn not only from Elizabeth's letters, but also from other articles/books written by other people who have escaped from other cults. It's info that helps me more quickly discern good from evil so I can cleave to the one, eschew the other and share with those who can teach others also. Now, Radar, learning from ex-cult members is something most GSCers do have in common, isn't it?

The tapes Tom shows have been out in the open for years. What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the plethora of day-to-day 'prophecies' served up to leadership and followers alike, especially those who chose to dissent on some matter. Those who dissent have been (and in my experience up to this month) are still being handled just as Belle so well outlined. If they 'stay down' all looks peaceful again. If they do not, they get another 'word,' another round of 'counseling' with leadership, or more 'loving' phone calls. And if that does not keep them down, they must be discredited before they talk to you and 'take you out'. (All under the guise of protecting the sheep of course.) What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the torment people have been put through, the many ungodly incidents people have detailed to CES Board members, the dismissals such as "you're the only one who has brought this up," 'your perspective is skewed," "I didn't finish reading your letter because I've heard it all before," the attacks such as "you are utterly incapable of handling honest communication and love," "you don't have the heart or skills to ___", and the grease-spot-type threats, "you don't want to fight against what God is fighting for." What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the day-to-day 'advice' full of psychological mumbo-jumbo (sold as--and probably believed to be--Christian) used to accuse many people of 'needing psychiatric help', used to counsel many couples who are now divorced, and used to literally tell people to get a divorce because it will 'help wake up' their errant spouse. This sin and more needs to be brought into the open, not so people can count these brothers and sisters as enemies, but so people can admonish them as brothers and make a decision to pray for them (who else will?), and also can choose whom they will follow/support, not just regarding this tiny thing called CES but in all of life.

Yes, Tom, you missed a few posts caling for prayer for all involved. Folks.....the exact evil being brought to light here (harm done to people under the guise of 'God's gracious personal prophecies') is only 1 face of ungodliness in CES. So just banning a practice of personal prophecies, though a wonderful start, is not much different from just dropping a few of TWI's errorneous doctrines..... It's still a "To Do list" to check off as quickly as possible so we can get this BEHIND us. The problem is we need to get it OUT of us! 'Head' decisions do not mean the 'heart' has changed, and so history will continue to repeat itself, only each time it gets more and more wickedly subtle and harmful. Every CES leader and/or follower needs to REPENT if he 'signed onto' the damage done to people through Karen Anne's (and others') personal prophecies or interpretations of dreams/visions. Each leader and/or CES follower who has based his life's choices on those things also needs to REPENT. And when that happens, as I said before, it will be both public and private. Also, each leader/follower needs the HUMILITY to place himself under subjection to, as others have said, a local church===whose pastor might not have talked every 'accurate doctrine' but will have walked a life that did not include a growing list of people he harmed while in his care. Almost axiomatically, any CES leader who wakes up from being so spiritually blind that he either did not know this harm was going on, so deceived that he did not define it as harm, so self-righteous to think that since it wasn't his 'word' it's not his sin, or so devoid of love that he didn't want to risk his own annihilation by crying 'foul' about the annihilation of others will, IMHO, immediately excuse himself from any leadership role.

1 and 2 Timothy clearly spell out the characteristics of godly leaders. If you read those books, talk them over with the Lord, refuse to go by assumptions or someone else's word, and determine that someone meets the qualities well enough to warrant your support, you will have no problem standing before the Lord one day having made that decision. By doing that myself, I discontinued supporting CES leaders years ago. In brief, 2 Tim 2:23 says...."foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves." In my own encounters with CES leaders, at any turn when I did not agree with their opinion/decision/plan, strife was a hallmark, while gentleness, patience and meekness were not. Much worse than strife was generated to me, my family and my friends, but if only that were true, it was enough to disqualify them from my understanding of God's requirements for 'church leaders'. That does not make them less worthy of Christ's shed blood (none of us are worthy or He would not have needed to shed it), but it does disqualify them from being my pastors and their organization from being my church or receiving $1 of the money God has given me to steward. In addition, because I have loved some of them for decades, it seriously qualifies them for my fervent, daily prayer that they wake up. Their 'deliverance' from deception will be evidenced, not by whom they change but by how they change. Not in whom they hire or fire, but in whom they themselves become. And that will begin to be evidenced in private and public repentance for private and public sin.

It came to this over much time. It came to this in tiny steps. It came to this as it comes to all of us.....through deception. Everyone is subject to that fog..and most of us have been in it. Deception is ...... quite deceitful. Our enemy is an accuser, tempter and deceiver. We know when we are tempted...we know when we are accused...but we don't know when we are deceived. It takes others to help us see that one. If you are not deceived in the way that I am, you can see clearly what I cannot. Although none of my tiny steps seemed like a problem at the time.....you who took none of those steps can clearly see that the culmination of them all is quite a big problem. So how will I too see the light? I must be humble. I must be willing to consider something other than what I already think. Yet most of us have had it drilled into us that considering something other than what "THE Ministry" has taught us is actuallly the road TO deception! Humility is the key. And humility is something we all need to continue to increase in. Therefore, as the un-deceived in this particular case, we certainly should be able to pray for these brothers and sisters in Christ to increase in humility so as to be able to see the deception under which they have walked...and into which they have led others. Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. ......Which is why I say, there but for the grace of God go any of us.