therebutforgrace

Wow, Bumpy, God bless you! It's nice to meet you, brother, and welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe. Are your mm's (mosque-mikes) broadcasting inside or outside it...or both? Hope you hang out with us awhile and give us your perspective on things..... And...(I just read your profile)...happy birthday 3 weeks ago! Grace

Someone just remarked to me that MG's lawyer might think twice if he knew of the volumes of MandA letters/emails/'prophecies' Mark has signed his name to over the years since he took the reins at CES. Reminds me of a Perry Mason show. All seems to be progressing well in the courtroom until --!-- a credible witness states he SAW the client holding the murder weapon over the body!!!!!! Perry snaps his head to look at his client and.....we go to an ad........after which we find ourselves in a 5-minute recess with Perry asking, "Why didn't you tell me?????" Of course Perry's clients were always innocent. (Poor Hamilton Burger never won a case.) But still....do ambulance chasers get paid whether they win or lose?

Amen, def59!

Rascal......Awesome....twice!

Hi GS, What a great name...and a great goal for me to shoot for. I'm glad you weighed in here. Sadly, I agree with most of your post.

QUOTE...Not that I wouldn't love to, but I type slow. Thanks for the laugh. And the rest of your off the cuff thoughts.....

Shall we build a chorus? How many of us can sing along? A horse is a horse, of course, of course and no one can talk to a horse, of course. That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed. Go right to the source and ask the horse, he'll give you the answer that you endorse He's always on a steady course! Talk to Mr. Ed. People yackety, yack the streets and waste your time of day. But Mr. Ed will never speak unless he has something to say! A horse is a horse........

I'm no lawyer! But I've been told that .... Defamation is a fairly simple claim. One defames another when he publicizes a statement of fact about another that is untrue. If the statement is a matter of opinion, it cannot be defamatory. Moreover, if the statement is true, no matter how injurious, it is not defamatory. Therefore, in this case (don't get me started on the legal system!), truth is a defense.

Welcome to GreaseSpot, Mr. Ed. And thanks for your comments. Another wonderful source showing the fallacies of 'pop psychology' is www.pamweb.org. Martin and Deidre Bobgan have been watchmen on the wall in this arena for more than 30 years. You can buy their books if you want hard copy, but most of them are free to download at their site. One of my favorites is "The End of Christian Psychology". In it they say that they easily came up with the title.....naively thinking Christian Psychology would end after people read their book. It ended for me...but obviously not for the majority of American Christianity. So pass it forward, GSers!

1b1... You wrote...Stubborness and Persistence are really very similar just the heart is different. That reminded me of a FABULOUS chart I got from some ex Wayfers years and years ago. On the left was a list of God-given attributes ...................... on the right was how Satan twists them into something else. As per your example... Persistence/Faithfulness/Steadfastness/Perseverance...............Stubbornness/Inflexibility/Rigidness/Dogmaticism As you said, the difference is heart. They explained it thus: This attribute is used to serve God and others............................................this is twisted to serve self :-) It was awesome and I'll look for it.

Hi Estimated Prophet, Welcome to GreaseSpot. I first came to the Cafe when I was told someone placed here the "prophecies" given to JAL and his wife, and her subsequent letter to him. I've known of errors in CES for years and was sorry to see them become this public, but glad to see that perhaps they therefore might end. We all screw up in life. That's why we need a Savior. The difference is that some folks ask for the job of Christian leadership ...and the Word seems to say that they are held to a higher standard. Certainly their errors can affect more people than might yours and mine. Whether the errors were intentional or not is irrelevant. They simply must be stopped ==quickly== in order to limit the carnage of innocents who trusted them. (Newcomer, that's what I mean by headlines. Not headlines in the media world, but headlines in our world of 1000s of folks we've loved/met/known/heard of in TWI and beyond.) Because I love the CES folks I stand firmly for their total stripping of error. Legalism, pride, elitism, psycho-babble, all of this and more. All that there is. All the leaven. All. Just as I hope they would stand for if they saw the same in my life. My friends and family have been adversely affected by lies these folks have believed and therefore I will continue to stand so that others will not be! I cannot make anyone think or do anything. But real love does not ignore mediocrity in friends who love excellence, ungodliness in family who love godliness, evil in brothers/sisters in Christ who love good. Welcome to GSC. Grace

Sprawled Out, you wrote...they've built this whole operation on the very way-brained elitist mindset .....a mindset that doesn't lend itself to "waking up." Quite correct....but I will continue to hope...and though not holding my breath, I will serve a God of miracles until I beathe my last one

Hi newcomer, I think Ham is speaking of the general consensus here that an organizaton which has hurt people would want to apologize to them. Although Corporations don't explain changes of Presidents in much more than a paragraph in a mailing to stockholders, etc., a Christian organization might feel led to do a bit more, especially when its inner circle workings have been exposed for the evil they have caused. (I call breaking up a marriage evil. I call quenching the spirit of God in even one Saint evil. I call M&Aing people evil.) Part of their problem has been that they "could care less about" various people....and I fully expect them to wake up to that obvious unChristlike attitude for Christian 'ministers' and change it. Last month we were told by the closest thing to a CES spokesperson here at GSC that when they had their Board Meeting and changed Presidents, they'd ask for input from their faith community, and try to get it all on the table and work out the problems they have come, through GSC, to learn are more widespread than they knew prior to GSers getting into the discussion. We have it on good authority that CES BOD members are reading GS posts, and that what has here been exposed has made changes in their personal and hopefully organization's lives. If there were some on the CES BOD who wanted their lives to continue status quo...it would have needed to continue in the dark (most CESers didn't know the stuff GSC has exposed)....and GSC has seen to it that there is no dark at this time on this subject....so that ended that. Those on the CES BOD who want to live in the light are reading here at GS or getting reports from those reading here...and I expect by now they have learned that there is much wisdom here, interspersed with some righteous anger and some carnality and some disbelief and lots of other stuff that comes when people are betrayed, their friends or family are hurt, they're told they are the 'only one who feels this way' and they find out that was a lie to their face, etc. As the BOD individually and corporately sees their sin, there will be many apologies to be made. Just as you or I make in our own lives. Difference being that most of our sin isn't headline-making. CES leaders, on the other hand, who have both private and public sin, will offer not only private apologies/repentance/explanations.....but also public ones.

Where was it, that you can tell it's missing? What was it called?

In case either of you cares, I didn't read Matthew's post as ugly or mean. Or yours either, Tz, though I do not agree with some of it. Actually, Matthew, even if Mark had called to garner support, it isn't the point. JAL discusssed who would go with whom in his 12-26 letter. Some of the others have called people I know to garner support. It's fairly logical in a split like this. But logical is not what we are called to be. Biblical is. So let's look at that.... What is important is not which side is doing that but THAT EITHER SIDE IS.... Forget that these are your fiends...they are mine too....and ask this question.......what chapter and verse tells leaders to KEEP people? I think, instead, the instruction is to SERVE them. As I've said before, we who choose to follow the Bible need to look at the fruit that is on the tree (not what is coming next season, what is here today) to see if any of these brothers/sisters in Christ meet the qualities GOD tells us that His leaders must meet.....I and II Timothy is clear. When I see repentance and humility in one/any of these folks...when I see any of them living up to the standards of I and II Timothy, I will then consider thinking about being wiling to consider thinking about whether or not I might want to support their teaching or writing...I won't look to them for any kind of pastoring or shepherding or leading, but since I think God has called each to something for Him, if I see any of them living that something, then I might think about possibly praying about supporting them in it, as I now support other individuals. NOT as someone to follow...but as a brother walking alongside me, called to a work I see he is trying to fulfill.

Wow. I'm a bit late learning of this thread, so I just read it from the beginning.... THANKS TO ALL OF YOU for great laughter tonight! Really...I just love you GreaseSpots! I'll be back, Grace

Sorry folks..that's not Mark. Don't forget to keep praying...

The answer to every sin is repentance. It cannot be legislated....that is legalism (sometimes disguised as behavioralism) But it is the opposite of grace.... Repentance begins with humility. To call things as God calls them. I call my attitude what God calls it: pride, rebellion, fear, idolatry, greed.... I call it sin. I ask for forgiveness. I accept God's grace...forgiveness when I don't deserve it; another chance when I've blown the ones before. Then I ask people for forgiveness. and I begin to make any amends possible. I'm not a worm; I'm no worse than any other child of God (all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God); there is no condemnation (God and Jesus do not condemn me)...but I must condemn my ungodly words and actions as sin, as rebellion, as disobedience, as evil....so I do not being once again to call them something OTHER than sin (no matter how much modern Western pop psychology tries to seduce me into doing so). The only hope any of us have to start anew is to accept God's grace (which includes His mercy....in which He delights and which is new every morning). That is humility. That is obedience. That is living by faith. That is submitting to God. THEN I can resist the devil and THEN he will flee. When I want this for someone else, I pray. I give of my time to intercede for them. I pray that the eyes of their understanding is enlightened...I pray for evil to be exposed....I pray for mercy on them and their families...I pray for ears to hear...I pray that the holy spirit in them reveals to them every evil deed and word so they can repent for each, get forgiven for all, get cleansed from all unrighteousness and walk anew for their Lord as He has called them to do. If I feel led to speak to/write to them, I do so boldly, clearly and patiently; I never agree with the sin; I never ignore it. I walk in meekness and with a goal toward restoration, as Galatians 6:1 instructs. I do it all--whatever I do--unto God not unto men (so I'm not sidetracked if no one cheers me on).....and I do it just as I would want others to do for me.

Thank you, Paw!!! Here are my notes from this great interview.......and my thoughts in italics. Written in 1998...I updated to add CES TWI/CES mouths the importance of God’s grace and forgiveness to salvation. But as a system they are legalistic and grace is hard to find. Regimentation not Christian freedom is the rule. All are to fall in line... Fear, orders, confrontation, punishment are the rule. Leaders are strong in confrontation...but weak in understanding, acceptance and patience. God isn’t like this. God accepts us as we are...weak in believing and when we fail. God comes with arms of love and gifts when we’ve not earned it. He is merciful treating us far better than we can deserve, hope or imagine. He’s not a taskmaster, but a shepherd who is so gentle he doesn’t break off a battered reed.... Grace and precious freedom awaits you outside of TWI/CES. The problem with splinter groups is they looked at themselves as radically different from TWI, but folks on the outside would say, “You’re fraternal twins.” When Splinter-group starters started, it appears they thought,” Some TWI beliefs were wrong, but mostly they just didn’t correctly apply the ones that were right. So we will throw out the wrong ones and correctly apply the right ones.” As one CES leader said, “We will show how to do a fellowship the right way.” That which upsets people.....that which is seen on the surface.....[threatening jobs, letters to fellowships, written prophecies, isolating people, control, punishments, etc.] are but Mechanisms or Tactics. They are not the problem, but are a result of the problem. The problem is the underlying assumptions/beliefs. And, they, unless purged, will crop up again. Getting rid of the mechanisms/effects {we will change Presidents, we won’t let pp get out of hand again; we won’t get so far into each others’ marriages, we will be more tender with people), does not change the cause. The same basic core beliefs will simply begin to use different mechanisms. Example: CES, which has the same type of tragic effects as TWI, does not have rampant, blatant adultery/wife swapping (a TWI mechanism/tactic). TWI hurt people just as CES has, but did not/does not use personal prophecy (a CES mechanism/tactic). Other splinter groups may have other mechanisms/tactics. (Anyone out there know any?) One foundational core belief of CES leadership that needs to change..... The Ministry is more important than the people. Bricks in this stronghold walls, built on top of that foundation: ........Submission of your personal life to ‘the leader;....Us versus them...Protecting the ministry....A small BOD is a multitude of counselors... The mortar to hold the bricks together: The Tactics. .....confrontations, letters, ‘guidelines,’ M&As, punishments The bricklayers: CES (or any splinter) leadership/inner circle. The solution: Get beneath the actions...to the underlying assumptions. And...get back to God’s very basic #1 core foundational belief: confessing/knowing Jesus as a personal Lord and Savior Having begun in the Spirit, are we now made perfect by the flesh?

Here's a link to other info on cult characteristics.

I'm a day late, but HAPPY #!!! Hooray!

Amen to WB's bingo! As long as the believer remains in that system he lives under a 'glass ceiling'...still loving the Lord and His people, still 'free' (as a bird in a cage)....and yet never getting out from under 'something' that seems to be keeping him from the peace, the joy, perhaps even the health or material wholeness that he knows Christ died to buy for him. Uptown1...thanks!

Good points, Belle and WB... Rich, you wrote....I call you and say I have a problem could you see what the Lord says about it Um-m...no one has ever done that...no one I study with or learn from talks like that...so I'd probably ask what you mean. If you just happened to use those words and really meant, can you help me see how to walk with God through this problem? I would remind you to trust in Him with all your heart and not to lean to your own understanding, I'd ask what He'd already spoken to your heart and what you'd already seen in His Word. We have all had people call and ask for help. We've all had a first thought to reply and had the folks say WOW THANKS! and hang up blessed....without ever saying what the problem was, so sure, I'd call that revelation, but .... If I knew you'd been influenced by KA and the CES PAC, I'd probably say Run, Forrest, Run!

Welcome To the Cafe, uptown1! It's nice to have you join us. You wrote....all of those prophets are working for someone other than God. And, sadly, all those in CES leadership and on Staff joined right in with them, and the followers who knew of it hopped on board too. I hope some CESers are calling the BOD to task on this stuff by now. Anyone out there contact the Gs, Rs, JAL, Ss, Ts or Gallaghers (who. in my opinion, all share in this disaster)? Care to share their response?

You are right, 1b1. Mark is just as 'strong' as KA. JAL's 'inordinate allegiance to the Graesers' has (although people have told him over and over for years) blinded him to their 'other side'...until now. So, getting the Gs' influence out of the CES office is a start. But.....getting the leaven (that which influenced the Gs) out of the CES leadership's hearts and minds (since they ALL went along with them for years) is the only way any of them (including the Gs and Rs) should ever be considered "leadership" again. God wants, of course, to forgive and cleanse each of them as much as He wants to forgive and cleanse you or me the next time we sin. The purpose of exposure of the sin of leadership is 3-fold: stop God's people from being hurt, allow believers to make a fully-informed choice of whom to support, and, hopefully, help wake up leadership too.