therebutforgrace

I know i'm a newbie, but I think we've gone way off topic. How 'bout someone starting a new thread on Momentus...or one on bi-polar or mental health, etc.? To take us back to where this seems to have started, Calflor wrote: The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really? And 1Broken1 agreed: Totally, completely, absolutely agree. There's enough 'reality' to bring to God every day without having to force some. Although this too has nothing to do with JL's letter---the title of this thread...anything about JL also brings CES's words/actions into play, so Calflor made a good point. CES has promoted Momentus. Whether people liked it or didn't like it is a Momentus-Thread discussion, imho. If we choose to look at Momentus in light of CES promoting it, however, some questions might be.....are they still promoting it (or a version of it like Vision Quest)? Did they hear their CES people who spoke up to them saying it was not good for them or did they dismiss them? How were their people treated in regards to speaking up about this subject? Is that the way their people are treated who speak up about other subjects? Who, specifically, (G's, R's, S's, Gallaghers', or JL, since they are individually responsible to God) acted in a godly or an ungodly manner? If CES believes in it, are they promoting it in a godly manner or an ungodly manner? Are they saying one thing and doing another about it or about other subjects that pertain to their organization??

Welcome, undone, to the GreaseSpot Cafe. Hope you stay awhile....

Trust and Obey.....you wrote.....There were no followers of Paul, there were imitators, because as Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Imitate Christ as He imitated his Father. So just as you saw Christ you saw His Father, and just as you saw Paul in those ways he imitated our Lord, you saw Christ. Are these guys folks you want to imitate? If so, take those things worthy of imitating and get busy following Christ. If not, still get busy following Christ. But to follow them, to follow their ministry, to follow their organization, that's downright STUPID! Idiotic. The ways of men, that's all it is. This is SOOOOOOOO right on! Wow! THANK YOU for the clarification! Yippee! Fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace...golly! I'vee been able to quote that for 4 decades, so now maybe I could see that it tells me what Fruit is.....Churches, pastors, etc. may talk of fruit...but you're right TandO, they often mean works. 'See how many books we've sold, meetings we've held, what our Sunday service attendance numbers are.' It could be that reading their books brings more love, joy, peace into readers' lives...it could be that their meetings are full of and cause in me more longsuffering, gentleness and goodness...and it could be that their Sunday services produce faith, meekness and temperance in those who attend.....but it could be that they don't, too! And either way, the latter is the fruit, not the former!! Hello Grace! Time to wake up! I love it! But.....there's more..... I'm not to follow, I'm to imitate. The question is simply.......do I want to imitate a CES BOD member, an Episcopal minister, Joyce Meyer or any Christian 'leadership'? How simple is that?????! Thanks, TandO! Wow.

Rascal wrote..... You have to get humble and start all over again, otherwise you are simply trying to patch up a crumbling foundation. AMEN!

WW.... you wrote..... that JAL was swift to accept KAG's a prophetess That was not at all swift. It took years for him to believe she spoke for God. Once that belief existed (and many other church people have the same belief in other people), in this church it was played to the hilt by all who benefited from it......thus when the spiders page came, surrounded by years and months and weeks and days and nights of 1000s of other words before, during, after ad nauseum (read Mark's 38 page and 14-page letters again....so many words, many of which--if you don't have outside people speaking their words to counter act them---sound fine. We take ONE step at a time (at least I do when I screw up)...and each one is very small so.... it couldn't really matter this time, could it? You also wrote....if the rank-and-file had risen up to condemn this "spiders-up-the-nose" so-called prophecying, The rank and file never ever heard of those 'prophecies' I'm told a CES BOD wife hadn't read them until GS exposed them. That's in E's letter --- how SWIFTLY SHE was dealt with when she showed them to a couple of her friends. More restrictions put on her----and JS highly 'encouraged' her to write a 'good faith letter' saying she was wrong and they were of God since she'd 'done damage to the prophetic' by talking about them to someone 'who could not know since they were not there'. This is nothing new. Re-read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. It's all in there. And in Therapy Gone Mad (story of a 70s secular cult with all the same trappings as our cults-of-choice). JL and JS and others ARE waking up...but how long did it take some of us to wake up to the "obvious to our friends/family" problems in twi? Of course 'they should know better' but obviously they didn't. That's not an excuse. There is no excuse. None for how they treated people. ZERO. But it is a reason. I had no excuse for how I hurt the people I loved, but I did have a reason. As godly friends/family helped show me my reason was from the pit of hell I was able to re-frame it---see it in a different view (God's view, duhh-hh)--and therefore gasp at how evil it was. And then, those same godly friends/family had to pick me up out of the pit of condemnation I went into and remind me that God still loved me...or I would not be typing this morning. All of that took a lot longer than the 4 months JAL has had since Sept 21 when his letter says he first heard there were problems of this magnitude in CES. Way longer. And I didn't have near the people to apologize to as the CES guys have. Thank you all again for helping wake them up. Although MG has used posts from this site to quote in his lawsuit, others are reading and learning from them...and God bless you all for it

Great point/s, pond. And I'm so glad to hear you've emailed them all. I sure hope lots of people are. You might even email JL to tell him why you didn't email him. Sounds odd, but your reason for emailing everyone but him is biblically sound and that's just what all of them need to hear now: sound biblical wisdom.

You're right, Vegan......the words people who lack the love and courage do not reflect the love of Christ or glorify God. Which is why I said in an earlier post that, as he wakes up, these words will be something else he gets to apologize for. Do note, however, that his/my/anyone's making ungodly judgments of people is entirely different from his/my/anyone's being open to or not open to dialogue. (Of course, if someone's going to spew out unloving comments who'd want to dialogue, but you know what I mean.) He has invited anyone to email or call him...that opened the door to anyone to do so. I think he did request that whoever emails or calls identify himself. When I have to leave GS one of these days or weeks or months, I don't think I'll mind if anonymous people call or email me, but at the point when JAL wrote that letter, he did mind. That's not unbiblical, imo; we just differ on an opinion. But his judging people's hearts (calling people unloving and lacking courage) is a whole 'nother story! And as you say, a clearly unbiblical one. Has GS helped your family or friends at all yet and are any of them contacting the BOD with questions? (I advise that to be done in writing, not on the phone unless they tape the call. Secrecy must be a thing of the past.) It has helped some of mine and they have begun to contact some of the "Board Majority" (copying family/close friends/prayer warriors for accountability both on their part and the BOD's part). And, as I said in that earlier post, some of the CES folks are stirring from their oblivion. I don't expect an instant solution, but I will not back off from working toward a godly, permanent one.

he didn't say he wouldn't dialog.....he said he wouldn't dialog in one manner you want him to.

Ham, As I said in an earlier post somewhere, there will come a time when I can no longer spend this much time at GS. And I fully intend to give my name and phone number and email address and say just about what JL said...I can't keep talking to everyone, but it's not personal. It's just not going to be available in my life for a while. I in no way feel JL slammed the door in my face with his invitation to call or email him. I haven't taken him up on it yet, but it's open to me. So will you type on for weeks after my life calls for me to be somewhere else more often than GS and say that I too slammed the door in your face? If so, please let me apologize ahead of time. I did in no way whatsoever mean to do so. As for 'read my book', I don't think JL will be writing that given some time....his was a habitual (as we all know!) reaction there. And as for needing courage to talk to him in person, he is also beginning to see where he can apologize for that. I am very grateful for those friends/family who gave me time when I screwed up my life. I wouldn't be typing to you today had they not done so. Maybe that's why I can give these guys some time (albeit keeping their feet tied to the holy spirit fire, as my friends and family did to mine!!) Can we all agree that we want them to wake up and change? Can we all hope if not pray for that end?

Amen to Trust and Obey...and to you, EP. All of us have a carnal nature and if we don't choose to reckon it dead it remains alive and well and kicking! So we rant or rave or complain or murmur or..... and sometimes it's here on GS where it stays forever in print!! Sometimes we don't separate the sin from the sinner...that's one of the reasons we needed a Savior. He showed us how. When we choose to put on the mind of Christ we do better than when we don't. I repeat, sadly, that CES leadership has very much hurt my friends and family. And the END to their hurting anyone will begin to come by each of them waking up to the truth of how they have chosen to live in order to hurt people. Unfortunately, they did not hear people in private...and so it was taken public. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick." Some people, who had hoped and assumed that the CES guys' good intentions were being lived out, seem to hurt all over again as much as they did when past church leadership (of any ilk) were found to be hurting people.....and we come full circle to ....ranting and raving, or at least not having on the mind of Christ, here at GS or in our thought life throughout the day. But!! God saves to the uttermost. Us...them...everyone..... pond, let's see if this GS public wake-up call changes things before we keep speaking in the present tense about their devouring each other or other people. GSers might not see it without checking with some CESers...but Jesus will see it wherever it occurs. Blips of humility have already shown up on the CES radar screen and apologies are being made person-to-person. It has to have a beginning. Let's keep them in prayer and believe that God can take this mess and turn it into many miracles. Humility is always the beginning. For me...for CES...for the world Christ died for. Thank you GreaseSpots for helping to bring this about! God is thrilled with you!

Gilligan used the example of Earlham because that is where MG has been attending the last 2-3? years to get an advanced degree. In what, Gilligan?

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? I Corinthians 6:1 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 1 Corinthians 6:7-9

Thanks, Oakspear and TrustandObey.... So....... does anyone see a difference in the splinter groups run by the early part of 0-14th WC/12th FC.....to compare with any run by someone in the later part...to compare with any run by someone from 15th WC/13thFC and higher? Normally, if I want a problem solved, I go to the highest person in a ‘normal’ organization/business (one that serves people), because he knows the most, can make the quickest decision, and has the clout to get it done. But, I learned long ago that if you have a problem with the IRS (imo an abnormal organization that hurts people), you want to talk to the newest person. The guy who’s been there for years has swallowed their song and dance, but the newest guy might still have a heart. (And, he won’t be there long. Their turnover is quite high because, imo, people begin to realize the inequities of the place and can’t stomach it.) Anyway, I agree with rhino.....don't think it’s the principles that are hurtful (though knowing what I know today I think I'd write some different ones but don't worry, I'm not starting an organization). Anyway, I think the problem was the examples of how to live the principles. So I wondered if there might have been better examples in the earlier years and thus better followers who might therefore run better splinters? Also.......does anyone know a successful splinter run a non-Corps ex-Wayfer?

Hi Gilligan, welcome to GS. Does anyone see a difference between "old" Corps and newer? Maybe Zero Corps to 4th or 5th? Then maybe 5th to 10th? Gee, I dont even know how many there were. What Corps was in residence during PoP...1986? What Corps was in when the fired LCM...when was that? What Corps are they on now?

Thanks, dmiller

followed by me, too, excathie! Seeing's how people in the Bible with screwed up minds (and some with dead minds!!!) heard Jesus, the Living Word speak His words like, "Come forth!".....and....well, that worked!! So, i'd say HS must have meant something else....let's wait and see.

quick question...what's a sticky?

Holy Smoke who used to be newcomer, hello again. As an aside to you....I'm one who doesn't 'believe in psychology' (man's wisdom) to be able to tell me more than the Word (God's wisdom) tells me about who Man is, how he should live and how he changes. (But that's a whole 'nother thread so let's not derail this one. PM me if you care to, or start another thread. If you have an interest in that field, I encourage you to check out its Christian and non-Christian experts who have left it and why: Tana Dineen, Paul Vitz, Richard Gatz, Tom Szasz, Lisa Bazler, etc.) And to all..... As for accepting KG’s apology, I very much look forward to and will be thrilled to accept ANY of the CES folks' 'real, contrite, accounting of wrongs,' 'coming from the heart, springing from sufficient reflection and full contrition of the will' and their subsequent requests for forgiveness. I am among quite a few folks who have been specifically praying for that very thing for many years. Not because I need to give them my forgiveness. But because they need to realize their need of asking for it! Until they change.....they will continue to do evil (not be evil; do evil). When they change...they will make many apologies and I hope everyone accepts them. (I say hope, since when I began asking people for forgiveness, not all said Yes. One said she wished she were spitting on my grave....I took that as a No.) But, as dooj said, trust is another thing..... Trust is earned....... ==I see God requiring me to forgive. ==I see God requiring me to choose 'leaders' from those who live as I and II Timothy describe. ==I don't, however, see God requiring me to trust anyone but Him. So, after the apologies begin, I shall consider trusting again......one day at a time. NOTE: After years of error, an apology is a wonderful and obviously necessary beginning......but to change ingrained habits takes time, ongoing humility, much courage, and constant help from people who love you enough to continue to point out when you’re 'doing it again'....(which won't, I might add, be those people who were doing it with you in the first place.)

Hm-mm-mm......guess I’m asleep at the keys.... When I read EP’s post (not knowing who he is), I didn’t feel insulted and it didn’t occur to me he was trying to BS his way into being esteemed and subtly worshiped. May I start with the first thing about not posting anymore? Gulp. Remember, I’m a newbie...as I suppose is EP... so....I didn’t know, WW, that there even was a Standard Internet Procedure...so I might have broken several myself. And.....now I’m wondering if I should fear the day when I don’t post as often as I do now. I won’t be able to. I won’t feel the need to. Who knows? I’m not there yet. But when that day comes it won’t mean anything other than whatever my reason was. Secondly.....we don’t know EP (Or anyone else who is anonymous, for that matter.) (I only EP is not MG and he left CES 2+ years ago.) That might have been his last post because he’s on an iron lung and his family doesn’t have the money to pay the internet connection fee any longer.... or because he's emptying his savings account to fly to Guatemala for a last ditch cancer treatment... Really. I learned long ago not to jump to conclusions based on my life’s experiences. Like Bumpy (on the ‘CES is in a Mess’ thread)....He’s in Africa. When he posted that, I realized I had assumed (and you know what that makes me) that all of us were typing from comfortable homes in America, as I am. No.....Bumpy has no doubt had to see and deal with things I will never see or deal with. I am so often humbled into asking God for forgiveness for my arrogance.....AGAIN. It is the sin that sooooo easily besets me. Oh well...I'm just tossing in my two cents to say that it also didn’t occur to me to think EP was dumping me by saying this might be his last post. I just assumed his departure was his being practical for his own life. ============ WordWolf, I have yet to look up Bumpy’s Senegal, and now I have to look up anomalous! ============ Ham, you quoted EP: Our enemy is not John Lynn It is not Mark Graeser. It is not Victor Paul Wierwille Then you wrote, Really? These jokers have MADE themselves "the enemy". if EP believes Eph 6:12 applies to him, then isn’t GSC the place he can state it without being slapped? You and I don’t have to agree with him...although I do and in this case, the CES BOD has acted like my enemy.....(I’ve probably been on the receiving end of more of their evil than non-CES posters).....but my God tells me that even though they have acted like my enemy, they are not who I’m wrestling against and I choose to believe Him. So.....maybe that's why that’s all I thought EP was saying there. ============================ Rascal, that’s terrible, and I see how sheltered a life I lead to be surprised by it. I might seriously not buy Fritos again unless you say they’ve hanged management since then. ( lol..... ! ......I meant “changed management”, :D but think I’ll leave that typo!) ============================ Pond, great point to see that we at least give God equal time as satan... I stand reproved myself today. Thank you. Knowing the CES folks for years, I don’t see them as ‘front line in satan’s arena’, but they did without question spread his evil too much in some areas for too long....(as had I when I began to wake up to it) ============================ T-bone, thank you! I do think it will help. More, please, anytime you like. ============================ Mark, You wrote.......Let's pray that the CES leaders get a realization of what their words and actions have caused and how they have not always educated or shown Christ's love to others. In fact, that they have sometimes been destructive to others faith. If we are in grave error and don't really know about it, how are we going to grow up into Him, who is the head of the body, the Lord Jesus Christ? Amen! And praise God some of them are beginning to learn of those errors..... ......largely thanks to all of you GSers! You are wonderful!

T-bone...you wrote, The virus being the self-deceiving and manipulative social skills we adopted while in TWI. That’s a great statement...and could help lots of folks. Could you expound? Maybe list some of those social skills...with examples?

Lisa, I only knew your dad for a very few posts (until I just read this thread) and I too send my condolences to you. It's a joy and privilege to have had a good dad...so many daughters have not. How wonderful to know that you filled his heart with joy overflowing!!! What a blessing to carry that ... and him ... with you forever. God bless you. Grace

I know who it is.....It's not MG...and EP left CES 2+ years ago when they didn't listen to him either.

Bumpy, You are right that each of us need to get our own walk with our Lord together before we can be much help to anyone else. Of course, that's an ongoing thing, too! Some of us ex-CESers have long known of and spoken up about the cruelties CES leadership has imposed upon some believers. No physical torture or beatings, no kidnapping, not much with the civil authorities (as you and so many others see daily in your countries, b. But cruelty nonetheless. Ruining marriages; breaking up families; poisoning children against their parents; spreading lies/false statements about people, etc.....all because they spoke up to say what was ungodly about the way the group was living. Wes poke up; we were dismisssed or hounded out...and one of us decided enough was enough, and so posted the "prophecies" that CES leadership gave to John Lynn and his wife, and her letter to him explaining her nightmare trying to speak up while married to him. Thus, evil has been exposed, and so we, the Body of Christ, HAVE helped our brothers and sisters...not just the ones who have been hurt, but the ones doing the hurting. I don't think ANY of them wanted to hurt people. But they were. Talking to them didn't work; there was no one "above them" to talk to, so...enter GreaseSpot! Since they could no longer hide their doings inside the inner circle, they have had to own up to at l east some of them. If they don't own up to the rest of them...and there is no real change...GreaseSpot may again hear of them. Because of GreaseSpot, people are calling them, writing them, emailing them and I hope it continues until ALL evil is eradicated. Then, we can spend our time winning souls and fighting the devil together instead of separating from each other because of the fighting within.

Bumpy, Some of us care about what's happening in CES because we know the leadership or followers personally. And most of us care because we care about the Body of Christ, we want any evil to end; and we know that twi-splinter groups have no "synod," "presbyter" or other "higher" governing body of believers to whom they are accountable; therefore we the body of Christ must police ourselves or no one will help end the hurt caused to God's people under their auspices. As rich just posted in another thread.....We who care about those who have been stricken by the crimes are (as in a court of law) witnessing and speaking in testimony. Since the courts don't handle cases like this, we the Body of Saints get to do it.

Hmmm, wonder what photos you saw, GS... I don't know everything about CES, but can't think of any 'classrooms'..... Happy birthday to Andree also... How cool to share the same birthday! I love horses...if I'm ever in Senegal I'll look you up..... As it is, I'll have to look up Senegal....!