therebutforgrace

TZ...what do you mean by "a cultural thing"? And..how do you pronounce your name?

Thanks, Groucho...I guess I meant, the purpose of this thread... I'm still a newbie to the lingo....

Hi Danny...et al..... It is not the purpose of this forum to 'care' or 'not care' what JL, JS, MG, KA, DG or anyone else 'thinks'. EXCEPT in how that obeys or disobeys God and thus edifies or tears down God's PEOPLE who call those men/women their Christian leadership. If you follow the thread, most of us here do not call them our Christian leadership; yet some of us have family and friends who do. Thus we care very much how they LIVE in relationship to our loved ones. Sadly, Danny, you are one of many of us who, through the years, have felt that JL JS, MG, etc....don't think we're good enough. The good news of the present, however, is that --in large measure due to what has been exposed here at GreaseSpot--JL has begun to see this. I hope to begin seeing it in the others also. I give God the praise for the beginning of JL's repentance...and for now, it appears that people are not continuing to be hurt by CES. (They mailed their monthly tape and magazine--and I don't agree with all that they print, but I'm talking about hurtful, in-person interactions. There is no PAC anymore; there is little 'counseling' that I've heard of, praise God, and of course there are fewer people now who look upon them as Christian leadership.) They aren't my leadership and I won't attend any conferences or buy any of their books. But, as long as I hear no reports that people are continuing to be hurt, I will be patient with their individual and collective speed of walking away from and repentance for the Evil that they had grown to call Good. God and my family were patient with mine.

rascal wrote....You're mad at the wrong guys, people. Maybe what we need to see is that being mad at ANY 'guys' is wrong. Whether they cause it, receive it or expose it. The Word says we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. It's either true or it isn't. Obviously, the flesh and blood people are the ones who say and do the hurtful things. And ignoring those sins does not make them go away. If someone knew a child molester moved next door to you, would you want her to tell you, your neighbors and the principal of your elementary school? If she brought his sin into the light would you, the neighbors or the principal indict her for that sin? Would you think she caused the problem? Would you all get together and growl, "Everything was fine in this neighborhood until she started stirring up trouble!"? I don't think so. NOTE: If she LIED about the person, or even if it were true but she exposed it in an ungodly manner...(fearfully, pridefully, vengefully, arrogantly, dishonestly, unethically, or in any way unlovingly).....then you could hold her accountable for that sin. But even in that case, would you confuse her sin with the molester's sin? I don't think so. So.....it seems to me that confusing those sins here at GreaseSpot is what makes rascal right in saying.... It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us. Personally, I am not mad at any human. but I am angry about what humans do. And I am angry with the devil who has deceived the humans into doing it. When I'm angry at God's enemy, I more easily keep myself separate from acting like hiim! And I'm energized to right the wrongs. As best I can, I speak truth (in love) both to the guys who hurt people...and to the guys whom they have hurt. Sadly, I've been in both roles in my life. Mercifully, the Lord convicted me in the former, and comforted me in the latter, so I now attempt to live my life as His representative, doing the same thing for others as He did for me. I will do whatever I can to bring an end to evil. And I do it by remembering to direct my anger ---not to ANY guys...not to any people.....but to the SOURCE--God's enemy, Satan. I then engage my weapons that are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds (lies we humans believe and therefore act on)....and Christ gets the vicotry and the glory! If those who hurt people do not repent privately, speaking the truth to them becomes more public--and those of us who hear about it can stand with those actually involved in it by remembering that we don't beat evil by becoming like it....and by remembering that the GOAL is Repentance...so there is change...so evil ends. This is a wonderful forum where hidden things can be brought to light so that we can know where to use our authority in Christ to STOP the enemy from continuing to use our brothers/sisters in Christ for his purposes. Thanks again, Paw, for making this available.

Sadly, that was a very good post, rascal. Accurate, but more than that, wisely written with the love of God in your heart very obvious in the writing. CaribouSam, et al.....Since the guys in CES still need lots of help seeing all of their own mess (and that's what this thread can help them do), let's not derail this thread with TWI messes. That said.....how the CES mess compares to TWI's mess IS pertinent....and in fact could be a new thread idea in this forum.

Hi Spot, I go to a church now because I asked the Lord for a church who manifested the POWER of God. I thought of asking a certain group and they gave me a name so I went. Been going 3 years now (when I feel like it--no pressure; sometimes don't know if I'll go until the Lord wakes me Sunday morning). Boy can this lady preach the Word! I love it! Of course she thinks Jesus is God, but she doesn't preach on it...she knows I don't and didn't bat an eye. She loves people, she serves people, she feeds the homeless and visits prisons and orphanages and has a half-way house for those getting out of jail and I get to serve in any or all that I want at any time. What a blessing! What a difference from the wealthy church I grew up in----very little serving people) and what a difference from late TWI years (early years were much bettter)----in LOVING all people! My point: as has been said, ask the Lord what to do and then obey. I thought I was going for one reason, but I'm there for another. He knew that! :-) Jesus has never left you or forsaken you. so....climb back into Daddy's arms and start all over again!! It's wonderful!!!

JS wrote a letter to the mailing list a few weeks ago...and, as DMiller said, it wasn’t specific. Now The Sower comes out and you tell us it isn’t specific. So we wonder.....why have JS and the BOD chosen not to 'honestly share how desperate the situation is'. IMO, the bulk of your answer is that JS, DG and GandKT do not think the situation IS ‘desperate’. Years ago when there was a desperate situation among the CES BOD, someone asked JS why...in the 2+ years of the crisis...he had done nothing about it. He replied, “I thought it would just blow over.” Which leads me to another part of your answer. (IMO) A prideful attitude that some of us learned in TWI and some of us might not have gotten rid of yet: to use your words, the one that sees people as 'peons,' 'not spiritual enough' and 'regular folks.' An attitude that DISAGREES WITH GOD and allows for the possibility that I could be more important to Him than you. Whereas JS can quote we have all sinned and fallen short, we are all members in particular, God is no respector of persons, while we were sinners Christ died for all, God so loved the world, etc......his letter and The Sower, if correctly described here, do not SHOW it in practice. You are SOOOOO right that the ‘love and prayers of 100s of people (not sure they have thousands) can do wonders’. Setting aside the EVIL manner in which they ALL signed on to treat E, had JS chosen to simply tell their mailing list even just the one clear fact that MG is suing DG, JB, JL and STF itself (notifying them that the organization they have been supporting is involved in a lawsuit!), perhaps God could have moved in some of those people who ‘trust and support them’ to call, email, visit, write MG to HELP HIM SEE the error of his ways! But instead, as you say, JS did not choose to do this. In short,...in order to really be ‘determined to be on the mend’ one must think something needs to be mended. It appears, however (this is conjecture based on what I’ve seen and heard and I’d love to be wrong), that JS, DG, GandKT feel that CES is back on the right road now that MG and TR can be outvoted on the BOD. And if that is true, then it is logical for CES to proceed as though it’s ‘business as usual’..... because to them, it is.

Amen, rascal...

Amen, Bramble.

Hi Bumpy... Your name describes the ride CES is currently on.... I know of at least one long letter of feedback the BOD has received from an ex-CESer. (More, please!) They have begun to hear and see some things differently and to contact people they need to apologize to (including E). Their current Tape of the Month and Sower were already in the works, but hopefully, if CES continues and if they continue to put out tapes and magazines, future ones will begin to show that a shift has begun and that eyes, ears and hearts are opening. Whatever they do will not please everyone. Their apologies won't be fast enough; their changes complete enough; etc.... But for those of us who have prayed for these people for many years, this wake up call is a definitive answer to prayer and we continue to pray that like Job, though their beginning is small, yet their latter end shall be great--they will get and remain humble; repent, change, and be able to fulfill whatever calling God has on their lives to serve Him and His people; and love the believers and non-believers alike as Christ loves us and gave Himself for us. Thank you to all who are praying with us. Not only for the CES guys...but for all of the folks we've loved and lost to CultBrain. God is faithful and He loves them more than we do. I'm blessed to serve with you all.

Hi Bumpy... Tell them Jesus loves them!!

CS, you're right in that there have been Christian groups who label as a cult anything which is not Trinitarian. But do hear Quiet Thinker (hello QT!) because cults DO have clear characteristics. TWI (and CES imo) meet quite a few of them. A good list is at: http://www.sspx-cult.com/CultCharacteristics.htm I, too, by the grace of God, had a far better 'experience' with TWI than most people who post here....but a quick read of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by Johnson and VanVonderen clearly describes much of what has been going on in TWi (and CES--to a lesser degree but it's still all evil). Thus I call them both cults. Not because I'm mad at any of them...just by simple definition.

Thanks for this pro-active approach, CS... I vote for using God's terminology, not man's, in this thread. My reason is that man's terminology varies so much with each person's understanding. At least when we use God's words we all go to the same source for them and have the same Spirit in us to open our understanding. Plus, man's words seem to have no solution...you 'recover' forever...whereas God's words which descriibe problems also include the solutions: "you once were, but now are"....! I'll give one example: Man has lately made up the word dysfunctional. There is no definition of dysfunctional in the Word and no solution for it. Ah, but if we use the word CARNAL, God gave us many definite instructions about its cause and solution! So..can we define "Healthy" in this thread as "godly" or "how God would have it"? or "biblical"?

Welcome kerke, to GreaseSpot! Actually there's a lot of enjoyment here at the Cafe.... Stick around.....

When I think I have more of the Truth than you (even if I do), but have not yet broken into true humility before God and Jesus (death of self; all I 'have' is a gift; I deserved death but were given life, etc.), but am still prideful about having the Truth, then I think telling you what to do (or even making you do it) is 'help'. If I have good intentions, and I think I've got the Truth (even if I do), but have not yet broken and become grateful to be a servant, then more telling you what to do is more help. Since I define it as Help, not Control, today's pop-psychology's mumbo jumbo that manufactures victims who need help can lead me further and further astray until I can become very diligent to be sure I'm 'helping' you as much as possible. All the while my good intentioned-heart has been deceived and I've wandered into calling evil Good, calling control Help, calling witchcraft Love and of course calling law Grace. Witchcraft can, of course, become demonic, but Galatians lists it as a sin of the flesh--I want my way (ask any 2-year old). When I'm 50 and I'm right, then obviously the best thing for you is to want my way too. And the beat goes on.....

Dooj wrote Whenever you try to set up a "church" you get a cart leading a horse - a lifeless thing leading a living thing. And both will keep bumping into each other. That's not rambling; that's great! The 'church' ...the organization...is a lifeless thing. That's why I've never cared one whit about any of them. The people, however, are the living things which I do care about...both those running the lifeless things and those attending. Thanks, Mark and Skyrider, also. Duh-hh. The CES 'leadership' that I have been around disqualfied themselves years ago by not living in accordance with the verses which clearly tell me whom I am to call 'leaders'. So...if 'leadership' in any particular lifeless thing have disqualified themselves...and begin to wake up and change how they live, it will take time for them to earn people's trust again. It's easy not to plan more events...Camps, Weekends, etc....but during the time that they are re-building trust, one Saint at a time, do they send out a mailing admitting all that they have thus far seen, asking for forgiveness, and announcing they are geting out of leadership and closing shop? Do they then offer everything at half price, sell the furnishings and the building and split the proceeds among the mailing list (concurring with whatever legalities their 'charter' etc. includes)? Do they send out the admission/apology mailing and ask the followers what they want them to do? Or...something else? Groucho you wrote they should consider working at being Christian leaders without titles, authority and the temptation to lord over other people... So...they could keep the office open...but drop the MG-instituted 'full-service church' misnomer, go back to offering Christian 'educational' materials to whoever in a free world wants to purchase them...'counsel' or mentor absolutely NO ONE...and when ANYONE asks questions on how to live direct them ONLY to Jesus, Holy Spirit, the Word and a local church, maybe?

Sprawled out wrote...face it, gracie. they have become just another version of twi. only worse. more twisted. somebody should stop them, before they kill again. You're quite right and I've compared them to TWI for years. As for stopping them, someone has, praise God! YOU all! GreaseSpot. Capn Crunch, and the rest of you...by bringing their hidden deeds into the light. The CES inner circle wickedness has been completely interrupted! (I hope ENDED but without a change of heart in each individual, it can always begin again with another face.) Setting aside for a moment the fact that Momentus hurt some people (though I have not heard the CES guys are out promoting anything at all right now), their main way of hurting people/destroying lives has been through their 'counseling', which praise God HAS ENDED (as far as I've been told). And again, they don't have 1000s of destroyed lives to their account (don't jump on me, ONE IS TOO MANY; I'm just reminding you that their influence is a blip on the radar screen compared to TWI. The hurt mostly came as you got closer to the BOD, spearheaded by Mark and KA. Cross JL and he'd dismiss you, but usually fairly kindly. Cross JS and he'd hardly notice you anyway. Cross the Gs and you're in their cross hairs. Then.....JL and JS and DG are culpable because they swallowed the reasons/excuses/garbage the Gs would hand them about those believers. Couple that with the elitist, "we've got the best source of God's Truth" attitude, and you have people being MandA'd. Now...let's think about what you wrote....."put your mind, your heart, if you will, someplace else for a while" If by that you mean should each of them should step down from "Christian leadership', I agree and have posted that more than once. Forgive my inability to construct this next question to agree with everyone's theology...give me a bit of latitude here..... If God has placed His call for ministry into your heart should you "put your heart somewhere else for awhile" without His telling you to? Thanks, Bliss and Rascal...for your help. And here's another question...how do we define "Christian leadership'? I just tried to type it quickly and found it wasn't that easy. Don't have more time right now, so how do you all define it?

Moving past the doubt and the 'get a job' comment which has been explained here many times (JL and all CES BOD members have other jobs except Mark), be specific...'Clear away old mindsets'...'residual Waybrain'...like what? I'll start..... Using God's terminology..... Pride and Self-righteousness (in man's words, elitism).... Shown in the thought that, "We know more of the truth than anyone else" or "We more 'rightly divide' the Word than anyone else". Who's next?

Rascal, CS, EP I don't think we're really far apart. If we substitute specifics for the idioms, we might put something together that could be very helpful. Rascal I think your “skills and knowledge acquired” is part of EP and CS's "baby". Let’s be specific....in CES at this time we've got 4 couples and JL who form the nucleus of an organization. Is the bath water the deception they’ve swallowed and therefore promulgated? Is the baby the organization? Is the structure their organization? Is the foundation their doctrine? I've never thought in terms of organizations, since Christ didn't die for an organization. I've only thought in terms of individuals... so it's easier for me to see what's a baby and what's bath water. The person is the baby and their thinking that has been polluted into calling evil good (and corresponding actions) is the bath water. So, as the baby sees stronghold #1 as corrupt and begins to tear it down, out goes some of his bath water. Using the foundation/structure analogy...I think it’s supposed to be something: Christ is the foundation/cornerstone....the Body of Christ is the structure....the people are the Members in particular Whom Christ died for...their eternal life is what Christ bought for them...and their individual walk of sanctification in this natural life (losing their own life, dying to self, loving as Christ loved usm one thought and decison at a time, tearing down strongho9lds and leading each thought captive to what Christ would say or think or do) is how they show obedience to Him out of their joy and thankfulness for His sacrifice. So...as each CES person sees that he/she has been deceived, he goes to the Lord and asks to be shown EVERY area. Then, one at a time, he repents (to God and to any person affected---privately, publicly as required in each instance) and begins to re-learn. I might see 13 areas in which one CES person needs to change. I can be thankful he's on #2 or irritated that he's so slow. My choice. I know Jesus has waited years for me to come around to some things, so although I sure hope it won't take them years, I am thankful that some of them have begun. How 'bout we take this view and try to re-construct an offering of The Road Back? Most of us have been deceived...have had people in our lives who knew it when we didn't know it...have had help waking up...have had more than one thing to wake up about...have screwed up more than once in life...have hurt other people...have seen other people be deceived...have helped some of them wake up...etc. Although our lives might not have been as public as the Way/CES/offshoots (thank God!), our Lord did walk us through some of the same territory, didn’t He? I would think this august body of GSers could Write The Book On it! The Road Back..... (by some who have traveled both directions)

Hey, pond...Quite a few of us left CES long ago, no longer look to them for spiritual knowledge, and haven't listened to a teaching in years. Quite a few of us don't consider them 'leadership', have gone to other churches for quite a while, and yet....really do love some of them and have an investment in their lives. Groucho, quite a few of us don't think they qualify as 'leadership' anymore (as signified by our having gone elsewhere), but you're right...the thread could have purpose if folks would discuss what qualifies people for leadership and what doesn't, how someone who has been disqualified could return, to what extent, with what checks and balances, etc. We all know that who God calls to what is His business...so I won’t argue with Him if He calls any of the CES guys again to what I might call 'leadership' (they obviously remain called to everything you and I remain called to). I can’t right now picture any of them being my ‘leadership', but I will definitely stand for their freedom from deception. I will not say they are permanently disqualified anymore than I would want someone to say that I am. Ham, for you to make up and knock what they might have said or done, or make up and mock what they might yet say or do does not seem productive at all. They have enough real problems to work through without your hypothetical ones. Why not spend your time instead praying for their victory over our common enemy? I’d like to see every ‘fallen’ minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ become sterling examples to the world of our God’s grace and love in allowing us to stay on His team despite our previous screw ups. Why not pray for the CES guys (and any other Wayfer or off-shooter) to be shining examples of our God’s mercy in allowing those of us who have hurt His people to not only keep breathing but to once again be trusted with representing Him? As many have said, it will take time for these guys to realize the bulk of the error of their ways and then live differently long enough to be trusted again....but how does it help them (or Jesus) to pummel them among ourselves here at GS? We CAN help by speaking tough truths in love. By pointing out deception. By restoring in meekness. How 'bout considering this thread to be: "CES Is In A Mess, So How Can We Help Our Brothers And Sisters In Christ?" Then, if we who are spiritual work together here at GS and maybe learn how to restore someone in the spirit of meekness considering ourselves lest we also be tempted, we will be able to offer that help to all the offshoots and every other cultish group we all run across in our lvies. Think of the impact we can have for our Father and Savior as we really DO put on the mind of Christ, and we really ARE His hands and feet in this world!!

oops, wrong thread...

Thanks, EP. I was in a hurry when I posted.... How they have listened to men is one of the things they are waking up to, praise God. Gal 1:8...Though we or an angel from heaven preach another gospel unto you, let him be accursed. As with the rest of us, their Repentance and Correction progresses the more they listen to Jesus.

Hi Skyrider, I was using Ham's terminology in my post, but now I'll use yours: they are beginning to listen o their followers (and, imo, more importantly to their ex-followers/friends who have been seeing and saying things for years). They are also beginning to apologize, person-to-person. It might not be as fast as some GSers would like, and some may pick apart my choice of words as I answer you this morning, but those of us still personally involved to some degree are blessed and thankful and willing to walk with them through however long it takes. The main beginning is that no more will an inner circle hurt the people it deals with. I've repeatedly said that public sin requires public repentance. It will take time, but at least they have begun (to use my words) to wake up...to many things. Your prayers would be appreciated.

Thanks, Vegan. I too have lost trust in these folks. To be my Christian 'leaders.' They haven't been for years and I doubt any of them ever will be again. But I do trust some of them to love the same Lord I love and want to serve Him. So, when I was contacted recently and offered an apology, I was grateful and had no problem accepting it. Since most of you, my new friends here at GS, are anonymous, you could have lived (and could still be living) in a manner that I would have no trust in either, yet I like chatting with you. So I expect to again like chatting with them when the time comes. No, I won't trust them to be anyone whom I look to for any kind of spiritual advice (though JS and JL will always be good concordances), but I can trust them ...and all of you... to be children of God who need as much love and forgiveness as I do ..... and I can trust Jesus Who said that when I do something unto the least of them ...or you... I'm doing it unto Him...and I owe Him my every breath. I believe the CES folks have much to learn in order to help God's people without also hurting them. And...if they never learn it....well, at least their harmful influence has for the large part ended. There are too many of us now on the Wall to allow it to rise to anywhere near its former fervor. And again, I thank you all here at GS for helping to bring this to pass!

A few people here, myself included, have posted that some of the CES guys are beginning to wake up. That would equate with beginning to 'see it for what it is.' No, they won't see everything instantly, nor will they ever see enough to satisfy some people...however, wouldn't it be Christian to at least speak accurately about them? If you don't believe the posters who say that some of the CES folks are beginning to see, to repent and to change, call or email them yourself or just wait and see.....but if you had screwed up your life and you began to wake up, how would you want people to talk about you? Yes, more of your errors might be made public than you'd wish and you'd have to eat a lot of crow.....but would you rather hear, "He can't see it; he's power-hungry" or "He didn't used to be able to see it and seemed to be so power-hungry...I'm glad to hear he might be waking up"? Haven't we been commanded to do unto others as we would have them do unto us?