therebutforgrace

Thanks so much for the out loud laugh, excath...

Good points, Sprawled, Hey and WB... Shoulda said... ...We all have a Selfish nature: "I want my way"... ...Witchcraft doesn't have to be witches and spells, but simply "I want to control things so I get my way".... and ...The Road away from Control is paved with Humility and Repentance.

WB, you are 1000% right...(but don't get arrogant about it). The Fall made us Selfish...we want our own way from birth. Control is how we try to get it. Control is witchcraft. Galatians says witchcraft is a work of the flesh. Witches, spells and the like do exist, but even without those, witchcraft ---control--- is alive and well all over the world and in the Church. Couple Selfishness (wanting my own way) with Pride (my way is the best way) and you have a vicious partnership. Fuel it with Religion (my way is God's way) and you get the "calling evil good" that we've all seen in one-too-many cults. The Road to Redemption is paved with Humility and Repentance. Let's pray that the folks at CES quickly get on it. After all, God's mercies are new every morning. And that's a good thing, since some of us need them at least that often.

Hi Sush... Hmmmmm.....I didn't read it as arrogant... I happen to prefer to look at 'what sows life' versus 'what sows death', but nonetheless, 'right' and 'wrong' do exist... But I applied the comment to any subject matter...not just a spiritual one....and it reminded me to think of the OTHER person, not just me and to use wisdom when I speak about any situation, whether I thin kit's objective and obvious or subjective and not so obvious....... Maybe it's none of my business...maybe I'm not the one to correct them....maybe a slight addition to their view let's them see more clearly...maybe you yank their neck to get 'em outta the way of a train.....anyway, that's how I took it :)

Wow,caribou and 1b1...I like hanging out with intelligent folk such as you! Doesn't matter whether you agree or not.... Glad you're here....

Satori said...The Graesers and Resners evoke a level of contempt usually reserved for Wierwille and Martindale - these delusional fruitcakes are grotesquely unqualified to lead anybody anywhere, aren't they? Yet, followed they are." .....Well, hopefully, followed they were. If enough people simply know what has been exposed here at GS, the word will spread to where other folks will not 'follow' Mark and Karen Anne or Tom and Susan into their next venture, should they choose to begin one, or at least folks will speak up to those who do. What Dot said of JAL applies to all of the past and present CES BOD/Staff...God has to reveal to [them] the [person each] REALLY is. He has to be face to face with what he has become and what evil he has allowed. Until he is humbly faced with the kind of [person] he truly is, there will be no change in any ministry he starts Pride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before destruction. Until there is redemption there will just be more prideful decisions... IMO .....To which I say...your opinion is God's opinion, so I'm with you both! Again, the goal is redemption for all involved...and hopefully folks who choose to be friends with any of the CES BOD/Staff will not only pray for that end but also daily call them all to it in word and deed, thus actually leading them, rather than following any of them at all.

Welcome to GS, Sam! Is it cold up there??? Thanks for the post. Keep that constructive feedback on the stove...it appears someone might be willing to listen one of these days... And I'm sure Jesus has many outlets for your creative work for His outreach, whether CES exists or not. You wrote.....Still, I met and fellowshipped, prayed and prophesied with many, and the fellowship was fruitful. Isn't God's grace truly amazing? He works through us in spite of us 'cause all He's got is us! Orgs of course are only run by people...and you're right..they usually start off by one person seeing others in need and trying to meet that need. They begin in order to serve people. But as they grow they molt into the opposite----something that needs people to serve them. (since, of course, they are so needed to serve people.) Pride comes before a fall. The bigger the pride, the bigger the fall. Thank God the evil has been exposed in this one organization, and I pray the same exposure occurs in every organization that has been deceived off of the path God and Jesus started them on. Type in again, Sam.

Happy Birthday, my new friend. We're so glad that you were born 'cause if you were not here.... We could not see your smiling face or hear your voice of cheer! It's hard to say God bless you To someone who doesn't exist. Especially on your birthday you would certainly be missed! So Happy Happy Birthday from the GreaseSpotters so dear... And if the Lord should tarry we'll be typing to you next year! Grace

Hi Biblebrain, welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe! I don’t know if you’ve read the other 2 threads, but I was a CESer and I love these people. I’ve stated my purpose plainly elsewhere, but will do so here: to see redemption for EVERY person Christ died for, whether I agree with their theology or not. A quick note about the Café--from one newbie to another: Everyone here is allowed to speak! No one here is shamed into silence! It’s something that many of us ex-TWI-Brains have to get used to....but it’s liberating, so please stick around. First, you wrote, it's easy to sit there in front of your computer and be bitter, complaining, judge... Remember the distinction: .....We all know God has commanded us NOT TO JUDGE hearts or motives. .....But we must remember that the same God, at the same time, has commanded us TO JUDGE words and actions. (Have our senses exercised to discern between good and evil; abhor that which is evil; prove all things, hold fast to that which is good) So.....ummmm....(said quietly since you’re new).....of your three words describing us... “bitter, complaining, judg-ing“....the last 2 do describe words/actions...but...ummmmm....the first describes the heart. Hey.....2 out of 3 ain’t bad for your 1st post, though. The rest of us don’t engage our Biblebrains 24/7 either. So ... you might see more unbiblical judging of hearts here at GS since .... Everyone here is allowed to speak! No one here is shamed into silence! But don’t dismiss the many biblical judging of words, teachings and actions found here which can truly help many, many believers not only in CES but elsewhere. Second, you wrote, I thought this was pretty straightforward...[KA] has been "wounded" recently; it’s causing problems. He who only looks at what CES wants him to see will always think it’s pretty straightforward. (Many of us used to.) But he who looks at things CES doesn't want him to see (as many of us have done and as GS has now allowed you and anyone else to do) finds out things are anything but straightforward! He also finds out there is nothing recent about this. Before and since personal prophecy became a club, many of us have spoken up to help our brothers and sisters in CES. The fruit was quite plain to see.....some of us were nicely dismissed, some indifferently ignored but far too many were attacked and discredited to our families, our friends and from city to city. (See details in CES Is In A Mess or PM any of us who have given examples or start a new thread asking for examples.) Just the ‘prophecies’ given to JALandE themselves are anything but ‘recent’, but are dated April 2003. If I may be so bold as to speak for the GS consensus, I see it this way: in this one particular case, we have separated what was from God, what was of man, and what was of satan. Those prophecies, CES people's words and actions written in E’s letter,(and other CES words and actions reported here at GS) were almost none of God, some of man and many of Satan. Third, you wrote, the [new] board will make all this history The solution to the administrative direction of CES might be to vote Mark out as President, terminate his employment and, as Joeoday said, “eliminate the influence of KA”. The solution to “all this”, however, is not in changing their personnel. It is in changing their decades-old way of thinking and living--indivdually and corporately--that would lead these men/women (who say they love God and Jesus, who teach God's Word, and who have accepted the position of Christian leadership) to judge that these ‘of man and of Satan’ words and actions were words and actions “of God’. In short, what needs to change are the strongholds and every high thing that led them to call evil good and good evil. Fourth, you wrote, and excathedra quoted, Majority of the Board has been wising up to the doctrinal error RE prophesy due the "fruit" it is (not) producing...and Joeoday wrote, Unfortunately, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge. To which I reply...THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD for YEARS and YEARS and YEARS! There has been rotten “fruit” for decades. There is a long line of "casualties". The “pattern” emerged long ago. God has over and over and over again sent wise people to "wise them up". (And, praise His Name, He is doing it once again with the folks right here at GSC.) Fifth, you wrote, ministers are members also and are to be loved & appreciated for their service to Christ. You are correct. And so is God when He tells us “though we [your ministers] or an angel from God preach any other doctrine to you ...let him be accursed.” I love these folks and I appreciate their service to Christ. And, while not counting them as enemies, I show them my love by SHOUTING FOUL FROM THE ROOFTOPS because of their pattern of other doctrines. Back when I began to separate what was of God, of man and of Satan in CES, I quickly chose to have no fellowship with their unfruitful works of darkness, so I am praising God that such works have been exposed. And I continue to this day to admonish them as brothers and sisters to ...humble themselves before God, ...submit to Him, ...return to their first love, ...count all (their organization, their books and tapes, their position, their income, their following, even their part in a godly cause) as dung in light of the excellency of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, ...spend time getting to know Him (developing more and more of an intimate relationship with Him as Savior, Lord, brother, lover and friend), ...submit to their fellow believers, ...eschew the leaven they have swallowed, ...repent to God and the believers, ...and then.....begin anew to live the love of God ==== not out from their knowledge of God's Word with which they have dutifully filled their heads, but out from the love of God which Holy Spirit has mercifully shed abroad in their hearts.

Hi pond, I'm on these 2 threads because this is the best place I know of to bring to light the evil that CES slowly, over time, brought into their midst and called good. I'm hoping CES 'leaders' read what's on these 2 threads and all of you no-longer-cult-members can help show them what really is evil and what really is good so they can realign their thinking. I'm hoping CES 'followers' read what's on these 2 threads, see what their organization has been doing behind closed doors, and decide if they want to stick with it or not.

Welcome, rich, to GSC! Glad to have you join us. It does get a little rough here, now and then, but don't call me a prophet!! Intersting take you have...hearing many people being told the same things in pp. I didn't get any so I can't share mine, but maybe some other CESers reading this will join us and let us know. I do have 1 question for you. Who was it that took in what I had to say and informed me that they were going to stop, hold off or some term to that effect.? Obviously they didn't do it, but I'm impressed you even seemed to get their ear!

Several years ago Mark G started school again in some kind of psychology classes. JAL and the rest of the CES Gang has swallowed or allowed the stuff Mark said (in conferences and teachings) and wrote (in their magazines) and JAL's mouthing some of it in the the "woundedness" belief. Of course it's not even logical in this case because her 'rapid deterioration' occurred only in 'the last 7 months' so what wounded her just before that to send her into a nose dive from being spiritually accurate (forget that the 'prophecieis' exposed here were 3-4 years ago) to something so bad that he, who has been 'sewn at the hip' to them, must now admit there's a bit of a problem? But, as you said, and I agree...he believes it. In short...the 'woundedness' thing is one more thing he will get to see was nuts. I'm assuming the Lord wil take him slowly since there are so many....

I was PMed by someone saying it’d go easier on JAL/the BOD here at GSC if they were really honest. But I agree with sprawled out ...I think [JAL's letter was] as honest as he could possibly be--given the constraints of his belief system. (meaning, i think many of his premises are flawed, so i don't agree with what he has to say. but i believe HE believes what he's saying to be the honest truth.) I, too, believe JAL is stating what he honestly believes.......I, too, think he is incorrect, but error is not dishonesty. Dishonesty...lying...is knowing it’s 10 a.m. and saying it’s 11.... Or....knowing it’s 10 a.m. and saying you don’t know what time it is. Haven’t we been there? Saying (living!) something we entirely believed to be true...and later wanting to (and/or crawl in a hole) ‘cause we’ve seen how much of a lie it was? Ignorance is one thing that allows me to speak honestly while speaking a lie. Deception is another. Deception allows me to think I'm doing God's will when I am not. Others can see I am not, so when I say that I am, they say I'm lying and /or trying to deceive them. I know I am not lying or trying to deceive them, so I say they’re wrong. .........And the beat goes on..... Since so many of us have been there, we ought to be among the most compassionate. “To whom little is forgiven the same loveth little”....seems to mean that we who have been there and have been forgiven for being there ought to be one of the most compassionate groups JAL or any CES or TWI leader could come to. Oh, they won't get coddled here. That's not compassion. And the worse their deeds, the more they’ll hear! But we can have our goal be their restoration, and we can do it as Gal 6:1 says...in meekness, ‘cause we’ve been there and.......thanks to Adam......we could be there again. Think about what actually helped you begin to see straight. Then offer the same to these brothers and sisters, not only those duped into following these lies, but duped into teaching them. Personally, I pray that God gives them the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of HIM so that the eyes of their understanding will be enlightened...and they will know the PEACE and FREEDOM that comes with the HOPE that comes from knowing God’s ACTUAL calling on their lives... which may or may not be to lead or follow in CES.

I agree. I remember when this name came about and its intent was to be what Jesus said...'he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.' Since folks had been hurt by leaders before, CES wanted to create a distinction. And they did....in writing and maybe in speech. In practice, however, as GSC has so clearly exposed, they became just what they were trying not to become. And recognizing THAT will help any leader or follower of CES who humbles himself before his Lord and asks why. He who remains humble will also listen and, in time, the fruit of his life will change. There is room at the Cross for everyone.

Freeone wrote.....Was PFAL and TWI flawed from the outset--just a shrewd manipulation by VPW—or was PFAL and TWI originally of God and somehow VPW got lost along the way (no pun intended) Jonny Lingo wrote.... I think that the latter is the case and that VPW got lost along the way I wholeheartedly agree with Jonny, though it’s not the point of this thread. But the Lord showed me long ago that I was hungering and thirsting after righteousness back in The Day, and that PFAL was His beginning to fill me. It wasn’t to have been my last meal, nor was I supposed to only eat it for the rest of my life...but what I did with it wasn’t His fault. So I remain very thankful I heard about PFAL. And, TWI...WAS...different back then. Since I know the CESers I can also say .....CES was different back when. The roots were there for this disaster, yes, and as I wrote earlier.,... the longer [an unbiblical thought or practice] goes undetected. the more brazen it becomes..... but JAL and JS didn’t start off sabotaging saints and marriages and family relationships. As has been said here more than once, when neither took time off to ‘get’ what happened in twi, they also didn’t ‘get’ that although they left twi, twi hadn’t left them. Although they worked very very hard to be different from twi and in some ways succeeded.....it was only a matter of time before they would become like it and then worse than it. Because it’s a heart issue. If I think I’ve got ‘the corner’ on the Truth, then I think God NEEDS my organization and I think YOU need my organization and I think you need ME to keep my organization going and I think many other un-true things and I make my decisions based on those un-true things and...I get more and more off of the Word that I know I’m working very hard to stay on. As templelady so well put, I replace ‘the Savior’ (foundation) with ‘the vehicle to the Savior’. And the rest, as they say, is history......repeating itself Gomer, the holidays are over tomorrow and we shall see if Joeoday returns to this Forum. CES itself doesn’t owe GSC anything. They do, however, owe their followers the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...and since Joeoday is the closest thing we’ve had to a spokesman for CES and he has said Dan G and JS are willing to hear.....it will be interesting to see if he is still willing to hear from us here. A blessed 2007 to you all!

VEGAN wrote.....Some feel the CES accusers have a hidden agenda. They were wronged in the past, or want more power. They might be right! Does that mean that they, who say they care about CES, should dismiss every one of them with 1 blanket sweep of their hand? If they are ever looking for a Dr. and remain consistent in their thinking, they will dismiss every one of them because some Doctors might have a hiddden agenda, have been passed over at another hospital in the past and now want more power. If they are ever looking for a church and remain consistent in their thinking, they will dismiss every one of them because some Ministers might have a hidden agenda, having been fired from another church in the past and now want more power. If they are ever thinking of owning their own business and remain consistent in their thinking, they will dismiss every employee because some might have a hidden agenda, having been wronged at a job in the past and now want more power. Welcome to real life! In Group-Think Life, however, out of fear the Leadership sets up the 'can't talk' rule, and out of fear the followers obey it. And, since fear often IS False-Evidence-Appearing-Real, what could it HURT to look at some real evidence? CES ACCUSERS...to accuse with no details or proof is one thing. To accuse with many details and proof is another. Skepticism isn't evil, start with the second group. WRONGED IN THE PAST... Every ministry has people who think they were wronged in the past. Ask your friend/family member to give you a number of how many examples he will need to be willing to consider that there might be something to consider. WANT MORE POWER.....Who holds CES power now? BOD? President? Tier 1 Prophets? Office Manager? Ask how each is determined. Ask how many people are vying for each and then check each of them out to see if they could be 'CES accusers'. Tell them that Joeoday (the closest we have to someone speaking for CES)...wrote....."They say that half the solution to a problem is asking the right question. I suggest you send them to a STF Board member. Dan is dan@stfonline.org. John S. is John@STfonline.org. I know that those two are really trying to straigthen this mess out." A true supporter of any organization would want to help straighten out its messes if they could, and someone close to your friends'/family members' organization says this is the way to do it. Ask them if they will.

Welcome, fullcircle, to GreaseSpot, and thank you for your thoughtful post. Your sentence that JAL said the others were upset reminded me of this from The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse "When those who notice the problem become the problem, beware!" and " the 'can't talk' rule blames the person who talks and the ensuing punishments pressure questioners into silence." This rule (and others) are unsually unspoken. But the longer it goes undetected the more brazen it becomes, until the BOD can in God's name tell the minister and his wife they are not allowed to tell anyone about the 'prophecies' they just gave them...and then institute punishment on them both when the wife disobeys the spiritual directive. Hopefully our wide open forum here will be inviting to many whose spirit has been quenched by the 'can't talk' rule. Again, welcome.

Good point. That they have not asked for prayer...is revealing. Which faction, however, would do this? How would they ask? Too expensive and slow to do it in writing. An email to all, perhaps. Or the website...but... whichever they did they'd open themselves up to emails or calls, but if Mark is still running the office he'd answer them..... It's a mess alright.

Welcome 1broken1.... Stand by for a sec? Dmiller...you won't hear from CES yet. Joeoday has been the closest thing to a spokesman for CES here at GS. He said they are waiting until the Board meeting January 15, and then the new BOD will be contacting their 'faith community'. As I posted earlier, no corporation announces their fights, but announces their new Staff once the fight is fairly well over. (Note: I'm speaking strictly from a business/adminstrative standpoint here.) Have you sent other CESers to read the FACTS and the CES Is In a Mess thread? I think we'd all be interested to know if you've gotten any feedback from them. Back to 1broken1. Hi! You wrote.....so if anyone knows what Mark is talking about in 'lovingly dealing with one of their own' during the Feb meeting it would be appreciated. Mark's letter identified this. Earlier in it (Raf could proably find it instantly, buth he might be asleep by now)...he wrote of 'confronting' Susan in February. I'm not sure which verb he used, but when I read the ;lovingly dealing with one of their own during the Feb meeting', my brain put the two together. I think he did not mean to put Susan's name in there, but oh well. What we are trying to do here (with a few interruptions) is to help CES people a) find out what their organization has been up to and b) know that there are many of us at GS who will listen, comfort and give wise counsel. I was a CESer. I can probably answer most of your CES questions...but almost anyone here can answer your help-me-see-this-straight ones. Please keep posting or PM almost any of us.

Hi Jonny, I think that Tom meant .....and I know that I mean ..... that we're not on this particular thread for ourselves. We are here for others. For those who are in CES or thinking about getting in it. Many of us have found benefit from reading 'CES Is In A Mess' and, although this thread has been derailed twice by what I choose to call a spirit of strife, it too contains wonderful wisdom for which I am VERY THANKFUL. CESers are hearing about these two threads and coming to read them. YEA GOD! YEA Paw!| YEA you all!

Would any of you wonderful GSers be interested in posting on a thread I am considering beginning? Its purpose would be to speak directly to CESers. BOD or PAC or followers. Not necessarily by name. Each post would be as though you were giving advice to CESers. We could agree with an earlier post, quote from one, etc. but not ask/answer TO that poster. (We could use a PM for that, or start a new thread.) This would be what you would say to someone you love who is either a CES leader or follower. What you wish they would hear. Could that work? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, I have another idea: Joeoday wrote last week that Dan G and JS were going to ask the 'faith community' to speak up so they could get all the issues on the table. OK...if the new thread idea wouldn't work, would you all email me your counsel? (Copy and paste your earlier posts, write new ones, etc....) I think they probably meant the CES faith community, but I'm suggesting they expand it to the Body of Christ faith community. And I would print them and get them to someone who could hand deliver them to DG and/or JS. If we present some well-thought out, mature, biblical counsel to them (such as has been often written in both of these threads) the CESers can see how it is handled and decide if they choose to support or depart from CES. Pass it around and let me know what y'all think.

Hi Justpassingthrough--what a great name..Thank God we are.....By the way, I'm a newbie also. These folks here...they really are wonderful. Stick with us.....and don't think you have to PM or post everything you think. (I often want to, so I'm learning alongside you.) Would it be OK if I brought us back to a question Skyrider asked? Who in the heck would "sign on" for a Prophetic Council to manage one's life I was a CESer. No CESer I know signed on for a PAC to manage their lives. Any CESer reading this is now finding out, however, that their BOD had evolved into signing on for it. That can be quite a shocker, as Abigail so well said. I'm not shocked, because it's old news to me, but I wanted to knock people upside the head for quite a while when I first began to see it. So...the BOD was signing on...but what the general CESers saw looked much better: "Personal prophecy will be made available after the meeting". Most of the PPs that I heard were nothing like the stuff we've seen here at GS. The 'corrective words' were those given further from the maddening crowd (pun intended). The closer you got to the inner circle the more of the harsh words you ‘lovingly received’. And this went on for years.....little by little by little.....until EVERY BOD member came to BELIEVE what they were told about them. That these are warnings are from a gracious God and can ‘support’ JAL and E through the ‘spiritual attack’ on them because of their leadership role at the ‘forefront’ of what God is doing in the world. People who haven’t previously been scorched by such evil might laugh off the ‘prophecies’. I almost gaged typing the 'gracious God' sentence. Most of us reading the prophecies here are not only repelled by them but also compelled to shout FOUL!!!! But remember,..JAL and E’s ‘prophecies’ were absolutely to remain within the BOD and PAC and spouses. One of the reasons they ‘brought strong correction to’ E (read punished) was for was talking to one of her close friends about them...NOTE: E had only been married to the BOD for a few months, so she still had other friends. So.....the CES BOD and PAC, like the frog in boiling water, had surrounded themselves with themselves and told themselves about themselves over and over and over and one of themselves told themselves how the enemy would use ‘attacks against the prophetic’ to stop themselves from being the ‘unique ministry’ God needed themselves to be. It’s printed in the paper Mark, KA, Tom, Susan and Nancy wrote....."Unfortunately if those with hardened hearts do not repent they end up resisting the prophets and their messages and become resisters of the prophetic." This is the exact condemnation/accusation Elizabeth was under, and why, as she continued to insist more and more that those 'prophecies' were not of God, JS could continue to BELIEVE more and more that she had 'hardened her heart' more and more, and therefore JAL should divorce her. It's also why JAL (who should know better but who obviously doesn’t--Chrispy says he's been bewitched and I entirely agree but that's another subject) could BELIEVE that he was obeying God by obeying JS and the rest of themselves. Of course it's insane to us...we haven't been immersed in it year after year after year. Most of us got out of that mindset long ago...but these people haven't yet. Hopefully someone will print and mail parts of this thread to the CES leadership so they can begin to! I am certain that CES folks in the outlying areas were unaware of all but just a minor rumbling going on here and there amongst them. My prayer is that everyone in all areas of CES will become acutely aware of a major Humbling going on everywhere amongst them!!

Thanks Chris....I just didn't put the shoe on....didn't seem to fit...but I guess when it's permanent out here in cyberspace a clarification can help...

and let God raise them up if He wants to. Amen! We probably all know of someone like one man I know. He often hears from people telling him how much he's influenced their lives for Christ, what a good example he's been to them over the years, mentioning specific examples, etc...and I've heard him ask laughingly, "When did I do that?" It's not Alzheimer's, it's the real thing---walking by the spirit. He did it when he was just living for his Lord...not by setting out to LOOK LIKE he was living for his Lord. When we promote ourselves we must strive to maintain it. And that which begat it--Pride and Strife--will be our hallmarks. When God promotes us we might not even notice.....we just 'keep living' for Him. And that which begat it--Humility and Peace--will be our hallmarks.

Now you see why people could never win under the 'leadership' of these people who held these beliefs. PRAISE GOD THEIR BELIEFS ARE OUT IN THE OPEN! CESers...I was one of you. This is what I found out I was supporting. Is this the ground you thought you were planting in? First, they tell you something pathetic...I mean,... 'prophetic'... Let's say (surprise) it's not very complimentary If you agree, then you've got Problem A. If you disagree, you've still got Problem A (because the 'Lord' said so, dummy), AND..... patronizing nod ...you've also got Problem B! Lack of humility...unwillingness to submit...combative spirit...anger issue....ad nauseum There IS N-O WAY TO WIN. There is N-O WAY TO GET OUT! IT N-E-V-E-R ENDS! Oh, you can submit to Program 1 that the 'prophet' says will help you with Problem A, which of course requires continual submission to the 'prophet' (who--trust us, we love you-- has your best interests at heart) but God forbid you falter under the microscope because the 'Lord' will no doubt have something 'prophetic' to say to that also......which saddles you with Problem C, poor dear, and if you dare to question that , you buy the label of Problem D which requires Program 2......and if you fight us there we will tell the 'faith community' that you are part of the 'demonic assault on us to shut down the prophet's voice' and to M&A you.......but!..but!...even if you somehow get through this all.....we will nonetheless undermine you tby planting seeds of doubt about you in the 'faith community' (we'll want to ask them to pray for you, of course)........and we will keep record of this..........so we can lovingly remind you of it .....should you choose to question us in the future....... I can hardly type!!!!! Hey, Joeoday, where did you go? You wrote.....I remember in The W.y that they exercised a lot of control and authority over people. My perspective is there is a big difference between the two organizations Anyone out there call what you've seen here something close to exercising 'control and authority'? It's pure IDOLATRY, as Duc says. ....but these people are better than the last people I was in idolatry to.... It's legalism.....it's Phariseeism....it lives on fear....it has caused such evil that it's more than I can type right now, as I think of ALL the wedding vows and ALL the people and the families that have been used as fodder in the fire of this ungodliness WHICH WENT UNCHECKED and LARGELY UNKNOWN throughout the CES 'faith community' -----until now. Can I have a BIG HALLELUJAH for Capn Crunch and GreaseSpot please?????? These lies are a DISGRACE to our Savior who is the perfect, loving, grace-filled, merciful, compassionate Head of the Body, as Raf so aptly wrote. And how they DEVOUR the Saints! I love these people and I abhor what they have done because they believe lies like these.... and I once again suggest every CESer reading this --who has not read The Facts and CES Is In a Mess00 to click on these 2 links and read them now. Then ask questions of your CES leadership. Then decide what God wants you to do about what you've learned. The life you save may be your own. .....and you'll then be able to save someone else. CES is not the only place people are being used.