Bolshevik

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Legal authorities are the only ones with leverage? After the cult or narcissist has led one to abandon all friends and family and education and career, where will one go? Where is one’s support? Leverage.

Mental tricks are designed to distort reality. The prison feels real, even if it’s a state of mind.  

"Legal authorities are the only ones with leverage"  I didn't suggest this.  I said they enforce the law.

Your example says folks are really good at burning bridges getting into a cult, but somehow forget that technique getting out.  I don't think that is true.  You got canceled by a group you want to leave, the horror.

I was saying there is likely property or children or a secret being kept, as leverage.

30 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

If being in a cult is anything like being in a relationship with a narcissist, one may feel trapped, imprisoned. So, escape makes sense. There are synonyms for escape. It's a word choice.

I would argue there's usually a form of leverage involved.  Enforced by legal authorities.

The interview focused on feelings, and mental tricks.  

2 hours ago, waysider said:

Questions like:

What does it look like when someone rejects the opportunity to escape?

By "escape" do you mean turn one's back the relationships formed in The Way International?  Relationships held in place by the authority of government entities?

10 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Not every empath is codependent, but every empath in a relationship with a narc unwittingly becomes codependent.

Whats a better word than victim?

Technically, the NPD is victim #1, that's how they are made.  They're compensating for the permanent damage.  Projecting victim mentality outward through the cult strengthens the shared fantasy.

4 hours ago, Twinky said:

Just to remind people, this thread is about Charlene's book.  

It is not about snowstorms, snakes in gardens, lesbian sex, or even, really, about VPW himself.  It's about her take on his teaching.  Her book.  Which, doubtless, Mike and other derailers have not read.  

An interview was posted by the writer of the book that sparks questions.

Still not sure "victim" is the right word.  VPW all alone does not make a cult.

https://images.app.goo.gl/DnWkMG8T8QbsyoZZ7

So Reason is more important than Emotion then?

7 minutes ago, waysider said:

You know what else is a fact? In 2008, a hurricane hit Cincinnati. Would you be inclined to believe that without a citation?

I saw one those Way Tree stickers with an open Bible on top on a vehicle driving through Cincy yesterday.

Not relevant to the discussion, but if someone in a black pickup felt that got the evil eye, that was me.

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Indeed. It’s what we do, until we wake up. 

Hence, there is no "other side of the story".  Just a retelling of the fantasy.  

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Indeed. It’s what we do, until we wake up. 

Well see there is no "other side of the story".  If we pretend there is we continue the fantasy world.

31 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

The NPD's victim refuses to act in defiance of the screaming voice within. Until, one day, finally, courageously... she sets the hammer down.

It is sinister and subtle and defies logic or reason. The self is destroyed. The voice within is trained to be mistrusted. Reality is no longer real.

This is a self-harm.  Dissociation.  Simulacrity.  

They ate the fruit in defiance of the screaming voice.  In exchange for a new reality.  Where they could be gods.

Story old as time.

2 hours ago, waysider said:

I don't think that's what I'm saying. But, ya know, sometimes, even though you might be holding the reins, the horse has a mind of his own.

I've reread what Penworks wrote again and again.  It sounds completely helpless.  Her insides were screaming to act and she refused to give herself authority in the situation.  VPW could have been a 6 year old making demands to his mother.  (I'm sure the story changes later)

*set hand on flat on desk . . . smashes it repeatedly with a hammer* . . . I had no choice.

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Is that what was available that one needed to know how (H-O-W) to get and what to do with once gotten?

A Permanent Revolution for any hamster.

5 minutes ago, waysider said:

It reminds me of an old comic in Mad Magazine. The spy is wearing a disguise that consists of a black eyeglass rim with a fake nose and mustache attached. He removes the disguise and looks just like he did with the disguise.

Well VPW did tell everyone from the get go this is all about Power.  The Class The Class The Class.  Power Power Power.

27 minutes ago, waysider said:

I took an early version of the CF&S class. In that session he said that the original sin was mutual masturbation and that the eating of the tree was....Uhhm...maybe it's best you fill in the blanks. Anyhow, the real point here is, as Nathan_Jr stated, that he said his feelings trumped the evidence. 

LCM took it further.  And I think by reading into words.

I'm pretty sure the verse doesn't imply any of that.  It talks about eyes and knowledge.  What do eyes symbolize?  (rhetorical - NOT what LCM said)

The fig leaves obviously were symbolic of covering shame. And poorly.

Great so VPW had a feeling.  Where do feelings come from?  Why would he have a feeling?  Well the NPD has no real sense of self and so lives as a false self . . . . 

4 minutes ago, waysider said:

Man, if that ain't a classic, what is? lol

Quote

Fig leaves are large, broad, and flat, averaging 12-25 centimeters in length and 10-18 centimeters in width. The bright, vibrant green leaf has 3-5 lobes with thick veins and a prominent stem.

https://specialtyproduce.com/produce/Fig_Leaves_7136.php#:~:text=Fig leaves are large%2C broad,veins and a prominent stem.

36 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

All of them. One should appear to be equitable. That way no one gets missed - victor said that, too.

GAWH! - The redistribution of feelings and emotions!

THAT's why Adam wore the fig leaf too!  He didn't eat the carpet, but he shared in the shame.

4 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Sure, But lesbian sex? Bestiality is as far as I feel like reading it into the text.

Yes, but which flag should one fly?  Yours?  Or all of them?

4 hours ago, penworks said:

Thanks, Chockful. I'm glad to share that interview here. One of my favorite questions from Prof. Moss and my answer:

MM: In the last chapter, “Turning the Tide,” you write about the denial of feelings that had become so prevalent in The Way’s teachings. Could you please elaborate on that aspect?

CLE: One of Wierwille’s pet phrases was “Feelings come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever.” What he meant was that we were not to trust our feelings because they change all the time. And because they change, Wierwille told us they were unreliable sources for truth about ourselves. When our feelings contradicted Wierwille, we were trained to reject those feelings. One important example of this from my own life is in Undertow: Even when my gut feelings told me that the man I married had betrayed me and was not good for me, I was supposed to reconcile with him because the Bible said to forgive.

The forced inauthenticity is an attempt become a god.  Is one way to put it.  This world is not real, so denying it becomes plausible.  Re-interpreting the cognitive dissonance to dismiss it as "growing pains" in a process.

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

victor paul wierwille, charlatan, said Eve's lesbian escapade with the snake was the original sin. He said he couldn't prove it, because it lacked textual evidence, he just had a feeling it was true.

He didn't sound embarrassed to spew such agonizing stupidity, he sounded gleeful in his kerchief and loudly plaid suit. (An ironic homo-erotic image.)

Victor was recorded on film saying this for the CF&S class. Anyone can view this record for themselves on archive.org.

 

The ordeal with the snake and the fruit could be viewed as an appeal to the "gnostic/hermetics" thinking.  One becomes a god through the acquisition of knowledge.  What the serpent said.  Thus the dualism.

34 minutes ago, waysider said:

Yes.

http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/politics/ideology-politics/difference-between-enlightenment-and-romanticism/#:~:text=The proponents of enlightenment argued,is focused on human emotion.

I see an argument bigger than VPW.  

2 minutes ago, waysider said:

English is a crazy language, isn't it? As listeners, we can usually distinguish  between emotions and feelings based on the context. If I cut my finger, I feel pain, but there isn't necessarily any  emotion involved. (Though emotion might ensue in the form of regret and anger at my own carelessness.)  Or, I could experience emotional sadness even though there is no apparent physical cause. It's nuanced...except when it's not. And, there are times when the two overlap in such a way they can't be separated. I think VPW pretty much slanted this toward interpreting emotions and acting on them in a manner that contrasted Way doctrine. I mean, so what if the WOW field has you in a state of emotional turmoil? "You just gotta STAND, baby!, it's The Word!"

This all brings me to my point. The concept of word studies, where we replaced a Greek word with an English word or tried to understand an ancient custom in the context of modern society, is highly flawed. Anyone who has ever seriously studied a language other than their own will eventually recognize the absurdity.

We thought we were clever. We weren't. We were naive.

(Just speaking from my understanding here).  Emotions themselves are often triggered by thoughts, not the situation in front of us but our thoughts about the situations.  Emotions apparently can also be triggered by the unconscious.  Emotions have an intelligence to them separate from cognitive thinking that inspires action needing to be taken.  Feelings are a layer above emotions, more specific, we have a feeling about an emotion.  Layers of interpretations, you could say.  Moods would come after that.

I understand VPW to have wanted everyone in sink with his mood.  Which makes "Way Doctrine" sound like a silly term altogether -  (which involved word studies).  Because it's just gobbledygook pointing back to one source.  And what VPW was doing acting as a god, lower case "g", knowing good and evil. - To follow VPW was to be inauthentic.

"Gut feeling" I think is better interpreted as emotion, but don't quote me.  

I think what's being said above is someone else is the decision maker inside another head.  And I interpret that as a splitting in a person's reality.

1 minute ago, Charity said:

I had not heard this before and I find it very interesting as someone who's had to deal with strong emotions a lot in my life.  Thinking about it now, emotions seem to well up suddenly and are harder if not impossible to manage.  So where does that leave "feelings" - definitely want to learn more about this"  Thank you for sharing about it! 

https://www.amazon.com/Passions-Emotions-Meaning-Life/dp/0872202267

2 hours ago, waysider said:

This. When people say "Why didn't you just leave?" or "Why didn't you just do this or that?", this is the part they're not understanding.

because "being trained" sounds so passive.  You're saying you're never in control.

2 hours ago, penworks said:

Thanks, Chockful. I'm glad to share that interview here. One of my favorite questions from Prof. Moss and my answer:

MM: In the last chapter, “Turning the Tide,” you write about the denial of feelings that had become so prevalent in The Way’s teachings. Could you please elaborate on that aspect?

CLE: One of Wierwille’s pet phrases was “Feelings come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever.” What he meant was that we were not to trust our feelings because they change all the time. And because they change, Wierwille told us they were unreliable sources for truth about ourselves. When our feelings contradicted Wierwille, we were trained to reject those feelings. One important example of this from my own life is in Undertow: Even when my gut feelings told me that the man I married had betrayed me and was not good for me, I was supposed to reconcile with him because the Bible said to forgive.

For clarification,

by "feelings" do you mean "emotions" or both?  Feelings are based on emotions, and are basically thoughts about emotions, as I understand.