Bolshevik

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Anthropomorphism, clearly. 

Is it a tool or is it a sentient being?

Who says "these strangers" are speaking on your behalf?

Should have been discarded long ago? Sounds authoritarian, according to whose standard or which standard?

Were you happier during the interlude during which you hadn't posted here?

Happiness?  

Please stay on topic 

On 5/7/2023 at 6:35 PM, Beguiled said:

 

 

 

 

 

Bolshevik

I’m calling out your victim blaming bs. I have taught University courses for a long time now and have been taught for 42 years. I know the type of person you are. I know how your thinking works (or doesn’t). You are not smart or provocative. All of your anecdotal claims are dubious opinions that don’t originate in anything near a logical mindset. Your social currency is doxa, mine is episteme. You are a troll, plain and simple. You have a singular belief that you have not shared which allows you to think you are above everyone else here and that everyone here is hindering our families in TWI. So what was done to your family that is currently in TWI? Nothing has happened to mine. Bam, my anecdotal evidence proves yours is wrong. /s *facepalm*

I am a PFAL, AOP Advance class grad, born to my parents while they were in the Corps, later I went into the Family Corps with my parents and brother. My parents gave up their land, homes, horses, and investments to go back into the Family Corps. Once we were in Rome City they controlled our lives every second of every day. When I was raped in the FC they probably held no power over my 7^th grade self either. Clearly that was my fault and I was not one with god. Only VPW and LCM’s dick can give godly power to those that “need” it. When we were sitting under the big tent at the RoA waiting to hear where we would go WoW and then to have the entire program cancelled they probably held no control over my family. We were in the middle of the RoA, now homeless and penniless and at the mercy of whatever Loy decided to do with us. The Milgram Experiment shows time and time again that it does not matter what walk of life you come from, you will listen and obey authority. Two out of three people will, every single time, and will give no regard to the consequences of others as long as the authoritarian figure says everything is ok. If we, the victims, do not document what happened to us THEN THE CYCLE WILL CONTINUE AND IN ANOTHER THOUSAND YEARS PEOPLE WILL FALL FOR THE SAME BULLCRAP. This is literally education 101 in high school, middle school? Any and all harm that comes to people, family, and friends still in TWI is NOT OUR FAULT. We control our actions and cannot control the retaliatorial actions of others because we are speaking out on our truths. You are literally blaming the victim. My parents will die with TWI in their hearts and minds before me and my brother cross their minds. GSC might actually reach someone close to them and help them understand their errors. You blame those seeking help and answers when TWI took away their ability to gain an education and to use logical reasoning. If you were in TWI for a long period of time (read decades) and as a youth then your lack of intelligence, sympathy, empathy, and can be explained then I too am sorry that they stole time from you so that you could get a better education and perspective on what you think you are saying. Which of course, no one knows what you are saying but you. Because in the end you aren’t saying anything. You are just being a thorn in our flesh because you don’t know how to help yourself or those close to you. Well guess what, the answers are here if you can get past the fact that we all will have some lingering effects in our beliefs, our thought processes, and the language we use because of TWI.

So what evidence do you have that these websites influence those around our families? And more importantly, do you not understand that that is not our problem? We are here speaking truths about what has happened to us, period. If you are not strong enough or mature enough to hear the truth of how TWI has hurt so many people, then it is I who feel sorry for you. Of the most fundamental truths that I have learned as a teacher, it is that you are projecting. You are acting just like a “wafer” but you have your sights on a different target. Or really the same, right? Because you are attacking ex-TWI-ers just like the TWI does.

I have been a University professor and have read the peer-reviewed research on this and many topics for over a decade. The research proves time and time again that we must always find the truth of a matter before we can begin healing for ourselves, let alone others. Sure, people on this site .... me off and I wish they would stop using old terminology or would just “get over it.” But you know what? At the end of the day we were all robbed of our time. Time we could have been spending elsewhere improving our education, our families, our careers, et cetera. So I understand why people act the way they do and you know what I do when I get frustrated, I walk away for a bit (read years lol). But every time I am at a crossroads in my life and every time I cannot find a way to move forward I end up at GSC and unwrap something new that I didn’t know needed healing. GSC has been THE ONLY SOURCE OF HEALING AND SUPPORT FOR ME FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS and I only post a couple times every few years. I am a ghost around here and yet this community of like-minded individuals is needed for those of us truly destroyed by TWI.

You have chosen to continue to be a “wafer” even though you are outside of their garden.

You have chosen to be ethnocentric and ignorant to feed your ego. Sound like anyone we know?

You speak in riddles that have no discernible thesis nor conclusion. (Btw, this is documented in peer-reviewed research as being a cornerstone of the uneducated mind.) VPW’s Life Lines comes to mind.

Those of us who are PFAL and AOP grads are not continuing to act out our training in any way, shape, or form. Please give me ONE example of how we are. If anything it is YOU who are still emulating the condescending nature that we all learned in TWI. I was trained in those classes to be on a higher plane that those around me. I know the truth and they don’t so clearly I am superior and thus my questions and answers will sound pompous to others, yet profane to myself. I was taught that it was our way or the highway and if you don’t like it then I’m sorry to hear that. SOUND LIKE ANYONE AROUND THIS SITE? (Spoiler Alert: It’s you…) You say that “our one job is to forget.” Once again talking out of your foot and proclaiming what I should do, just like TWI. You do understand that forgetting and not speaking up is tantamount to enabling those who caused us harm, right? You understand that the peer-reviewed research proclaims time and time again that we as a society must document and not forget, lest our sins come back to bite us. Jfc this is common knowledge outside of academia. You are purposely being obtuse or you do not realize that you are just like those that you think you have broken free from. You have almost 8k posts in which you are showing your ignorance over and over again. It is you who are the problem. You need a slap in the face to show you that YOU ARE STILL ACTING LIKE A WAFER (I hate this term but TWI-er doesn't roll of the tongue). You are close-minded, uneducated, and quick to dismiss, only interject half conversations, and speak in riddles all while thinking highly of yourself and putting down others. It's passive aggressive bullying at its finest, whether you realize it or not. I mean I’d go on but jfc the parallels are glaringly obvious.

“When the birds are silent the rest of us don't have to consider them.” I think this every time I see you post. We are here for healing. You are here for pointing fingers anywhere but towards yourself. It’s exhausting and why I am on a rant. I give people like you ZERO chances. You either know what you are or you do not. If you don’t then this will be a wake-up call and I'll gladly eat crow. If you do then you will reply in unorganized thoughts and riddles that may or may not have relevance towards acknowledging the healing that truth brings around here and that you are coooooonstantly victim blaming and putting the onus of responsibility on anyone but yourself. You do not deserve my respect but I have given it to you, barely. I couldn’t care less how you reply to me. I can take anything you can dish out. I live in FL if you want to do it in person. I’m not a keyboard warrior like you so I’ll gladly show you how your thinking is wrong if you’d like. But in the meantime, stfu and recognize that this site is for those of us who are .... hurting from TWI’s .... and we don’t have more time for it here. We will speak the truth and if that truth hurts your family members, or my family members, it is NOT OUR FAULT. You are a TWI apologist at this point. The fact that others are cordial with you and you are not with them speaks volumes. (I am well aware of my supposed hypocrisy to this point at the moment, but sometimes I need to step out of line to get others back in.) I am not a regular so I don’t gaf who I .... off. And even if I was I still wouldn’t care. I am a victim of many things and will not put up with your pseudo-intellectual doxa when my intellectual episteme already shows me what this site is and who you are. This site has helped my life and my family, you have not helped anyone or anything. PERIOD.

“Posting to the internet always has unintended consequences.”

Let me help you out kid. Every single action we do as mammals, let alone human beings, has latent consequences. We are not responsible for said consequences. We can only control our own thoughts and actions. Every time you post one of you 7k plus comments you think you are being sly, slick, and mighty. But the reality is that you are showing those of us around here why we need this place every time you show your foot. You should be thanking those around here for their hard work, time, patience, money, et cetera. Yes there are a lot of egos and I don’t like most of them around here, but that’s my own personal shortcoming, not theirs. I literally come to GSC every 3-5 years and I GET HEALING EACH AND EVERY TIME. You are on here every day and spew vile everywhere I look. Again, as an educated person it is clear you project. I hope you can start to see that. You know you could help those you think need helping instead of complaining that those that "could" hurt your family are using this place of healing as ammo. It’s not our fault that people lurk for information to hurt others. Do not blame the victim. Do not protect the perpetrator. 

GSC does not harm indiscriminately. It heals indiscriminately. When a website can provide more powerful healing than a lifetime of being in TWI, then of course there will be those who seek to hurt and dismantle us. When you go on reddit or whatever .... echo chamber you hide in while on the ‘net, do you tell them to stop talking about the subject because they are harming people?

When you proclaim “my post you already read is clear, I think you are deliberately being ignorant on this chockful” you are not being anything but a smug and ineffectual communicator, let alone whatever else you think you are. And for the third or fourth time I will let you know that you are projecting your inadequacies onto the people replying to you. It is not up to us to determine what you mean. It is up to you. If we cannot understand your thesis, let alone your thoughts because you cannot sufficiently communicate them, then you need to take a step back and once again acknowledge it is you who is in the wrong.

You talk about GSC causing harm indiscriminately and when skyrider tells you that you are false you brush him off as not understanding that a bomb doesn’t care who it hurts. Tbone accurately states that it is TWI that is like a bomb. Again, you are projecting. I do not know how long you were or how long you got out, but I’ll say it again: I see no difference between your thoughts, attitude, and words than anyone in TWI. I am 42, I was in TWI for 25 years. Born into the Corp. I know TWI. I know how it and everyone involves works. You have yet to cast your shackles my friend. Until you do I suggest you stop trying to help others. You are harming more than you are helping. We see your mind skipping around and having conversations without us. We see you having thoughts and then spewing half thoughts onto the page. We see you. We see this site. You see neither.

Wtf does the world population and PFAL grads have to do with anything? What would they do to us? As a statistician I would love to know what you thought you were doing with numbers lol. You are seriously throwing incomplete thoughts and incomplete conversations at GSC in an attempt to sound like _____ (fill in the blank).

So needless to say your 7.7k posts on this site alone have had major latent consequences which include telling me to get over it and that I haven’t experienced healing from GSC in the past 15 years. You need to close your mouth and either get an education or listen to others. Either way, you are doing to us what you claim we are doing to your loved ones. It needs to stop. You need to stop.

I could say more but I’ve exhausted myself. Time for warm milk and a nap. Where’s my blanky?!

Beguiled,

We are the same age.  The Way International is our creator, yes?  So to learn about yourself you need to go to HQ.  Study the locals.  Yes?   The noise created by so many was quite loud.  So I went.  WHO was projecting?  They were.

I don't understand your "victim blaming".  You didn't choose to be part of TWI.  You're not a victim.  You should understand that what this website does speak on behalf of those not here.  It is a tool that can never be precise, and should have been discarded long ago.  Who are these strangers speaking on our behalf?

The victims here are the perpetrators.  Right?  Didn't you sit on the floor of TWIG fellowships?  Who did you look up to?  VPW?

Did you sit at the feet of VPW?  He magically did all the things?  YOU were directly hurt by VPW?

 . . .(Where did "ethnocentric" come from? )

I'm sure you're responsible for multiple age groups at this point in your life.  Think hard Buddy.

3 hours ago, waysider said:

All memories eventually go into oblivion. Except for the ones that morph into something that never was.

to beat a dead horse . . . this thing called the internet obviously does just that

On 5/7/2023 at 6:35 PM, Beguiled said:

 

 

 

 

 

Bolshevik

I’m calling out your victim blaming bs. I have taught University courses for a long time now and have been taught for 42 years. I know the type of person you are. I know how your thinking works (or doesn’t). You are not smart or provocative. All of your anecdotal claims are dubious opinions that don’t originate in anything near a logical mindset. Your social currency is doxa, mine is episteme. You are a troll, plain and simple. You have a singular belief that you have not shared which allows you to think you are above everyone else here and that everyone here is hindering our families in TWI. So what was done to your family that is currently in TWI? Nothing has happened to mine. Bam, my anecdotal evidence proves yours is wrong. /s *facepalm*

I am a PFAL, AOP Advance class grad, born to my parents while they were in the Corps, later I went into the Family Corps with my parents and brother. My parents gave up their land, homes, horses, and investments to go back into the Family Corps. Once we were in Rome City they controlled our lives every second of every day. When I was raped in the FC they probably held no power over my 7^th grade self either. Clearly that was my fault and I was not one with god. Only VPW and LCM’s dick can give godly power to those that “need” it. When we were sitting under the big tent at the RoA waiting to hear where we would go WoW and then to have the entire program cancelled they probably held no control over my family. We were in the middle of the RoA, now homeless and penniless and at the mercy of whatever Loy decided to do with us. The Milgram Experiment shows time and time again that it does not matter what walk of life you come from, you will listen and obey authority. Two out of three people will, every single time, and will give no regard to the consequences of others as long as the authoritarian figure says everything is ok. If we, the victims, do not document what happened to us THEN THE CYCLE WILL CONTINUE AND IN ANOTHER THOUSAND YEARS PEOPLE WILL FALL FOR THE SAME BULLCRAP. This is literally education 101 in high school, middle school? Any and all harm that comes to people, family, and friends still in TWI is NOT OUR FAULT. We control our actions and cannot control the retaliatorial actions of others because we are speaking out on our truths. You are literally blaming the victim. My parents will die with TWI in their hearts and minds before me and my brother cross their minds. GSC might actually reach someone close to them and help them understand their errors. You blame those seeking help and answers when TWI took away their ability to gain an education and to use logical reasoning. If you were in TWI for a long period of time (read decades) and as a youth then your lack of intelligence, sympathy, empathy, and can be explained then I too am sorry that they stole time from you so that you could get a better education and perspective on what you think you are saying. Which of course, no one knows what you are saying but you. Because in the end you aren’t saying anything. You are just being a thorn in our flesh because you don’t know how to help yourself or those close to you. Well guess what, the answers are here if you can get past the fact that we all will have some lingering effects in our beliefs, our thought processes, and the language we use because of TWI.

So what evidence do you have that these websites influence those around our families? And more importantly, do you not understand that that is not our problem? We are here speaking truths about what has happened to us, period. If you are not strong enough or mature enough to hear the truth of how TWI has hurt so many people, then it is I who feel sorry for you. Of the most fundamental truths that I have learned as a teacher, it is that you are projecting. You are acting just like a “wafer” but you have your sights on a different target. Or really the same, right? Because you are attacking ex-TWI-ers just like the TWI does.

I have been a University professor and have read the peer-reviewed research on this and many topics for over a decade. The research proves time and time again that we must always find the truth of a matter before we can begin healing for ourselves, let alone others. Sure, people on this site .... me off and I wish they would stop using old terminology or would just “get over it.” But you know what? At the end of the day we were all robbed of our time. Time we could have been spending elsewhere improving our education, our families, our careers, et cetera. So I understand why people act the way they do and you know what I do when I get frustrated, I walk away for a bit (read years lol). But every time I am at a crossroads in my life and every time I cannot find a way to move forward I end up at GSC and unwrap something new that I didn’t know needed healing. GSC has been THE ONLY SOURCE OF HEALING AND SUPPORT FOR ME FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS and I only post a couple times every few years. I am a ghost around here and yet this community of like-minded individuals is needed for those of us truly destroyed by TWI.

You have chosen to continue to be a “wafer” even though you are outside of their garden.

You have chosen to be ethnocentric and ignorant to feed your ego. Sound like anyone we know?

You speak in riddles that have no discernible thesis nor conclusion. (Btw, this is documented in peer-reviewed research as being a cornerstone of the uneducated mind.) VPW’s Life Lines comes to mind.

Those of us who are PFAL and AOP grads are not continuing to act out our training in any way, shape, or form. Please give me ONE example of how we are. If anything it is YOU who are still emulating the condescending nature that we all learned in TWI. I was trained in those classes to be on a higher plane that those around me. I know the truth and they don’t so clearly I am superior and thus my questions and answers will sound pompous to others, yet profane to myself. I was taught that it was our way or the highway and if you don’t like it then I’m sorry to hear that. SOUND LIKE ANYONE AROUND THIS SITE? (Spoiler Alert: It’s you…) You say that “our one job is to forget.” Once again talking out of your foot and proclaiming what I should do, just like TWI. You do understand that forgetting and not speaking up is tantamount to enabling those who caused us harm, right? You understand that the peer-reviewed research proclaims time and time again that we as a society must document and not forget, lest our sins come back to bite us. Jfc this is common knowledge outside of academia. You are purposely being obtuse or you do not realize that you are just like those that you think you have broken free from. You have almost 8k posts in which you are showing your ignorance over and over again. It is you who are the problem. You need a slap in the face to show you that YOU ARE STILL ACTING LIKE A WAFER (I hate this term but TWI-er doesn't roll of the tongue). You are close-minded, uneducated, and quick to dismiss, only interject half conversations, and speak in riddles all while thinking highly of yourself and putting down others. It's passive aggressive bullying at its finest, whether you realize it or not. I mean I’d go on but jfc the parallels are glaringly obvious.

“When the birds are silent the rest of us don't have to consider them.” I think this every time I see you post. We are here for healing. You are here for pointing fingers anywhere but towards yourself. It’s exhausting and why I am on a rant. I give people like you ZERO chances. You either know what you are or you do not. If you don’t then this will be a wake-up call and I'll gladly eat crow. If you do then you will reply in unorganized thoughts and riddles that may or may not have relevance towards acknowledging the healing that truth brings around here and that you are coooooonstantly victim blaming and putting the onus of responsibility on anyone but yourself. You do not deserve my respect but I have given it to you, barely. I couldn’t care less how you reply to me. I can take anything you can dish out. I live in FL if you want to do it in person. I’m not a keyboard warrior like you so I’ll gladly show you how your thinking is wrong if you’d like. But in the meantime, stfu and recognize that this site is for those of us who are .... hurting from TWI’s .... and we don’t have more time for it here. We will speak the truth and if that truth hurts your family members, or my family members, it is NOT OUR FAULT. You are a TWI apologist at this point. The fact that others are cordial with you and you are not with them speaks volumes. (I am well aware of my supposed hypocrisy to this point at the moment, but sometimes I need to step out of line to get others back in.) I am not a regular so I don’t gaf who I .... off. And even if I was I still wouldn’t care. I am a victim of many things and will not put up with your pseudo-intellectual doxa when my intellectual episteme already shows me what this site is and who you are. This site has helped my life and my family, you have not helped anyone or anything. PERIOD.

“Posting to the internet always has unintended consequences.”

Let me help you out kid. Every single action we do as mammals, let alone human beings, has latent consequences. We are not responsible for said consequences. We can only control our own thoughts and actions. Every time you post one of you 7k plus comments you think you are being sly, slick, and mighty. But the reality is that you are showing those of us around here why we need this place every time you show your foot. You should be thanking those around here for their hard work, time, patience, money, et cetera. Yes there are a lot of egos and I don’t like most of them around here, but that’s my own personal shortcoming, not theirs. I literally come to GSC every 3-5 years and I GET HEALING EACH AND EVERY TIME. You are on here every day and spew vile everywhere I look. Again, as an educated person it is clear you project. I hope you can start to see that. You know you could help those you think need helping instead of complaining that those that "could" hurt your family are using this place of healing as ammo. It’s not our fault that people lurk for information to hurt others. Do not blame the victim. Do not protect the perpetrator. 

GSC does not harm indiscriminately. It heals indiscriminately. When a website can provide more powerful healing than a lifetime of being in TWI, then of course there will be those who seek to hurt and dismantle us. When you go on reddit or whatever .... echo chamber you hide in while on the ‘net, do you tell them to stop talking about the subject because they are harming people?

When you proclaim “my post you already read is clear, I think you are deliberately being ignorant on this chockful” you are not being anything but a smug and ineffectual communicator, let alone whatever else you think you are. And for the third or fourth time I will let you know that you are projecting your inadequacies onto the people replying to you. It is not up to us to determine what you mean. It is up to you. If we cannot understand your thesis, let alone your thoughts because you cannot sufficiently communicate them, then you need to take a step back and once again acknowledge it is you who is in the wrong.

You talk about GSC causing harm indiscriminately and when skyrider tells you that you are false you brush him off as not understanding that a bomb doesn’t care who it hurts. Tbone accurately states that it is TWI that is like a bomb. Again, you are projecting. I do not know how long you were or how long you got out, but I’ll say it again: I see no difference between your thoughts, attitude, and words than anyone in TWI. I am 42, I was in TWI for 25 years. Born into the Corp. I know TWI. I know how it and everyone involves works. You have yet to cast your shackles my friend. Until you do I suggest you stop trying to help others. You are harming more than you are helping. We see your mind skipping around and having conversations without us. We see you having thoughts and then spewing half thoughts onto the page. We see you. We see this site. You see neither.

Wtf does the world population and PFAL grads have to do with anything? What would they do to us? As a statistician I would love to know what you thought you were doing with numbers lol. You are seriously throwing incomplete thoughts and incomplete conversations at GSC in an attempt to sound like _____ (fill in the blank).

So needless to say your 7.7k posts on this site alone have had major latent consequences which include telling me to get over it and that I haven’t experienced healing from GSC in the past 15 years. You need to close your mouth and either get an education or listen to others. Either way, you are doing to us what you claim we are doing to your loved ones. It needs to stop. You need to stop.

I could say more but I’ve exhausted myself. Time for warm milk and a nap. Where’s my blanky?!

What does a university professor have to do with anything?  Skyrider doesn't care.  This website is no labor of love.

My information came from a generation that is now dead.  In the grave.  They called out the generation that followed TWI.

This website exists to call THEM liars.  Who am I to believe?  Cult followers?  Or those who survived a world none of us can imagine?

The former-followers of The Way targeted us in grocery stores, at schools, in churches.  FACE-TO-FACE.  State after State.  THEY are the pot stirrers.  THEY never left the cult.  THEY are the problem.

What is this website?  Except an extension of what they do.

Nobody alive of any consequence can remember Victor Paul Wierwille, if he ever really existed, he doesn't matter.

All these memories must go into oblivion.  

On 2/17/2023 at 12:30 PM, skyrider said:

Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING.

When the mind is free from twi-censorship.... questions flow freely.  In my opinion, one begins to realize how many more questions he/she has pent up inside the crevices of this "renewed mind."  LOL.  A healthy mind is a questioning mind.

Did wierwille and company really think that we would "stay on the pfal-farm" a lifetime.... repeating its mantra as an invocation to this mythical, pfal-god?  How insane is THAT?  Only a narcissist could ever imagine concluding such a scenario for his followers.  Same goes for all of their "advanced" study classes.  Most all of these classes have been redone or tweaked over the years and "The Way Tree" class was completely discarded.  Thank you Johnnie Townsend for that class... NOT.  As so many posters have said.... such drumbeating of repetition is insanity.

Some question wierwille/twi only to a certain point.... and then stop.  That's NOT empowering, that's not freedom.  They are STILL tethered to certain aspects of twi's conditioning.  It doesn't matter if they exit twi or not.... they are still way-brained by indoctrination.

Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING.  

Try it.  You'll like it.

 

 

I am not connecting anything you say here to GSC.  Perhaps many matters are being conflated with GSC?  "free from censorship" - these things existed before the internet?

What did the internet bring into being that wasn't there before?

I fundamentally disagree, maybe numerous people in TWI did not see the dangers until the internet, but plenty of people outside of TWI prior to the internet did see them.

4 hours ago, skyrider said:

Your post is unclear.  To say that "GSC seeks to harm indiscriminately" is false.

What a broad brush you use.

 

 

GSC is not a living being.  Not in the sense a cat or a human being is.  It's information that is a double edged sword.  Focusing on the positive does not mean the negative ceases to exist.

40 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I suspect nothing. I don't know. What do they do to ex-JWs? What do they do to ex-Scientologists?

What do you think they would do?

Shunning is something everyone does, I think.  Most people only need hear TWI leaders did gawd knows what to shun a follower who had nothing to do with it.  Simple numbers game.  Human nature.  Rational precaution.  

Lots of people here don't give their real names, reasons could be TWI is reading, or strangers outside TWI are reading.  TWI is ultimately the lesser danger.  (It's dying and we are familiar with them).

52 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I’m curious – where else do you look? 

Not seeing an overall positive effect? Are you exaggerating? Or are you talking just about yourself?

 

Like Soylent Green,  Grease Spot Café is made of people    – so it’s NOT one voice – but  many  voices – INDIVIDUALS expressing feelings, observations, anecdotes, therapies, etc., - speaking just for myself - it’s done me a lot of good.

For a couple of reasons I disagree with your similar evaluation of TWI and Grease Spot Café. For one thing when a cult-survivor conveys they have the same unreasonably suspicious or mistrustful attitude toward Grease Spot as they do toward TWI, I tend to think they might need to regain confidence in their own cognitive skills.

And the other thing is the difference in agenda - -  TWI and Grease Spot are a million miles apart. TWI’s publicly stated agenda on their website looks benign – but underneath the façade are the programs and groupthink dynamics to indoctrinate followers.

Grease Spot’s purpose is to provide a platform for individuals to tell the other side of that cult – there is no censorship – so there’s a mixed bag of input from each Grease Spotter. There might be a gazillion little agendas if you add up why people read and post here.

One of the things I like to do is offer little tidbits of ideas and resources to pique the interest and curiosity of TWI-followers – maybe something  will draw them out of that rigid and enslaving mindset...as I said before, that desire to escape must come from within the person.

I read a fascinating book  Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other Peoples Minds by Howard Gardner . What intrigued me was the author explaining the inner workings of how folks change their minds – this goes much deeper than analyzing external factors like brainwashing, sales gimmicks or browbeating. Gardner talks about these ‘levers’ in our minds -  like different research and analysis departments – that an idea must go through and get vetted. When I say vetted - does it pass the smell test? The young and naive do not have well-developed cognitive skills, so they're more likely to fall for scams.

The book even has a chapter that gets into the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus…I read this book AFTER I left TWI, but it helped me understand how TWI was so successful at indoctrinating me. It was by the finesse and sometimes brute force of their manipulative tactics – that they could either sweet talk their way or bully their way through the various mental research and analysis departments.

 

 

TWI is indiscriminate like a bomb – it doesn’t care about the lives it destroys. The people of Grease Spot have helped – and continue to help others survive that 'bomb'.

 

 

There's a lot here I don't disagree with you on T-Bone.  I don't think all the good things are dependent on GSC or the internet.  All can be accomplished without the internet.

The Way International is people.  Face to face.

GSC is not people.  There are people interacting with screens.  Screens are not people.  The discussion of voices is interesting.  Are we really individuals on the internet?  Are we really ourselves when minds are interfaced with machines?

I think a lot of what's described on these boards are about times before the existence of the internet.  Since the rise of the internet, cults and their derivatives haven't gone away, simply changed.  You can imagine things may have been different if the internet existed in this form in the 60s, but VPW I can guess would have adapted as well.

(I'll revisit this to add more - you touched on a lot)

Starting a thread here to move away from another thread.

7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Who are the wrong people? 

The opening post appears to me to compare Waydale/GSC to TWI and the spin-offs.

If you google "World Population" I think that number shown is much larger than the total PFAL grads.  So large in fact PFAL grades divided by world population is essentially zero.

When this much larger group gets this information, what would they do to us?

55 minutes ago, skyrider said:

Your post is unclear.  To say that "GSC seeks to harm indiscriminately" is false.

What a broad brush you use.

 

 

A bomb doesn't care who is in its blast.  What is unclear?

6 minutes ago, waysider said:

I still have a blood relative who is entrenched in Way theology, though not involved with the organization in a physical sense. It's a thin sheet of ice I have to travel sometimes, so I somewhat understand. The Way promoted, and continues to promote, a twisted and harmful way of looking at scriptures and life in general. That can't and shouldn't be denied. We don't have to stand on the roof tops and shout it, but we have to at least acknowledge it. Sometimes when you get old you look in the mirror and wonder, "What the hell happened to me?" GSC helps people answer that question, provided they really want an answer.

That is fine Waysider, and isn't there a way to address that?  Be able to connect to those in your peer group without influencing the wrong people?

29 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Well, maybe I just don’t agree with 100 percent of your statements as opposed to being deliberately ignorant.

I personally don’t have blood relatives in.  I don’t seek to harm indiscriminately.  I don’t really agree with your generalizations.

I do have ex friends in.  They pretty much treat me pretty similar to the judgment and shunning that I would experience from blood relatives in.  

If I post a statement in good faith, and a blood relative in TWI uses it for nefarious purposes, what recourse do I have?   Be hyper sensitive and never post anything negative for fear of it being misused?

I cannot support that.  Sorry.

I can't see an overall positive affect of GSC.  It simply exists as does TWI.  Maybe it does good.  But GSC claiming GSC does good is circular reasoning.   I have to look elsewhere.

I highlighted part of your post because I feel it does not reflect what I already said.  So we are not talking about the same thing.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

What are these unintended consequences?

Enquiring hindrance site posters want to know.

Wait are you calling yourself out here?

On one hand you have to fight The Way International, on the other you have to fight the people around the people using the information posted here for personal gain.  We have blood relatives in there.  GSC seeks to harm indiscriminately.  You've known that for years.

My post you already read is clear.

I think you're deliberately being ignorant on this, Chockful

1 hour ago, skyrider said:

With the light of open discussion, a multitude of counselors, we begin to see that in twi we were surrounded by false teachers.  We had entered their territory where they feast on covetousness following after pernicious ways (causing harm, even death)... where they became traders making merchandise of men.

No longer were we in a world of buying goods and services.... but rather of judgments, unrighteousness and scorn.  They held power over us by feigning to care, yet overthrowing our lives into turmoil that brought us deprivation of discovering our true relationship with our lord and mediator, Jesus Christ.   Those trappings held us in bondage.

But now.... we are on a clean path.  We walk confidently and quickly to victory.

 

They held no power over you.  If that's what you really are I am sorry to hear that.

With the evidence that these websites influence those people around our families in The Way International, sites like Grease Spot Cafe remain a hindrance. 

Greasespot Cafe is a way for PFAL grads to continue to act out their training, analogous to "defeating the adversary" by making nothing but noise.

Posting to the internet always has unintended consequences.

Your one job is to forget.  Never mention his name, the weekly who died last century.  To disappear into the real world.

When the birds are silent the rest of us don't have to consider them. 

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It seems that age is so easily seduced by ideals, so entranced by conclusions, so willing to be conditioned.

It explains a lot about TWI's early growth

Yes, I would think every generation going back knew that.  That transition should be anticipated.  

God had to limit himself so as to limit the devil.

Does that mean God is subject to reason?

2 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

What do you  mean by: “Amost sounds like you’re making roca or toffee….?” No, I am talking about making Ghee.

Some people heat butter in a pan to browwn to make a sugar free candy.

I love ghee.  Clarified butter.  Big fan.

2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

If you know, then you know that you know that you know.

Earlier, someone just didn’t have time to read a book. As evidenced by this 7000 word post, time is no longer an issue. 

I'm trying to get through Dune.  And open an MRE.  

What does anyone really know?  We still have to make decisions.  

Know that you know that you know - must feed the idealistic mind, which 20 somethings are prone to do.  It's just a stage.  I suppose black and white thinking are easier to accept at that age too.

5 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 

 

Intriguing thoughts, Bolshevik! Gnosticism and the Trinity…I did some looking - found this:

One of the common questions we receive as Gnostics is “Why do you espouse the doctrine of the Christian Trinity?” To answer this question, we have only to listen to the voices of the early Gnostics themselves. In the entire canon of Biblical scripture there are only a few vague references to a trinity in the letters of St Paul, yet the Gnostic scriptures of the Nag Hammadi collection are filled with trinitarian expressions of God.

In the Gospel of Philip, we see written, “...the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” There is no place in the mainstream canon of the Bible where we can find so clear a reference to the Christian Trinity. In this way, we can state quite emphatically that we, as Gnostics, are trinitarians, yet we encompass far more than any dogma of the Church concerning this Trinity.

 

Whereas the mainstream Church has spent nearly two thousand years developing a dogma of the Trinity, Gnostics have always approached the Trinity as an archetypal symbol and a mystery. As an archetype, the Trinity arises in every culture, in every place and time. Even in terms of physical processes, most every phenomenon can be described as a trinitarian expression—active, passive, and their connecting interaction; motion, inertia and rhythm; thesis, antithesis and a resolving and connecting principle.

 

Many religions besides Christianity include a triune deity. The Goddess of modern Wiccans includes Maid, Mother and Crone. The Hindu pantheon includes the Creator (Brahma), the Destroyer (Shiva) and the Preserver (Vishnu). Religions that have a triad of gods often develop family relationships between the members of the triad.

This is particularly the case in the Egyptian mysteries with Osiris (Father), Isis (Mother) and Horus (Son), as well as Ra (Father), Pharaoh (Son of Ra) and Ka (the connecting and transmitting Spirit). The Gnostic symbol of the Trinity incorporates these two trinitarian formulae from the Egyptian mysteries—Father, Son and Holy (Mother) Spirit. The Gospel of the Egyptians describes such an emanation of the Trinity: “Three powers came forth from him; they are the Father, the Mother, and the Son.” Here the Mother (Holy Spirit) is the second person of the Trinity, where she might also be identified with the Egyptian Ka. The Gospel of the Egyptians further describes the emanation of a triune series of ogdoads making a total of 24 powers, as described in the Book of Revelation. “And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.”

 

In the tradition of the Pharaonic succession in ancient Egypt, the Pharaoh is a divine king, an Anointed One, a Christos, through the connecting power of the Ka (Spirit) that unites the Father and the Son and passes on to the Pharoah the power and consciousness of the Sun God, Ra. The Pharaoh is called the Son of Ra after receiving the Ka (Hereditary Spirit) of the Father. Also, in the Mass, immediately before the minor elevation, this uniting principle of the Holy Spirit, the Ka, is again invoked. “To whom with Thee, O Mighty Father, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, be ascribed all honor and glory, throughout the aeons of aeons.”

 

The mainstream Catholic tradition emphasizes the relationship between the Father and the Son, as an exclusive relationship between God and one man in history, called Jesus. Most of the controversy over the Trinity throughout the centuries has been over the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the other two persons of the Trinity and how that might influence the doctrine of both the humanity and the divinity of Jesus.

The traditional Credo provides only one minimal reference to the Holy Spirit, as “the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son, Who together with the Father and the Son, is adored and glorified: Who spoke by the prophets.” The Eastern Orthodox differs in that the Father alone brings forth both the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Gospels record that Jesus would send the Holy Spirit to remain on earth to guide and care for us, yet, in Orthodox and Catholic liturgy, the Holy Spirit is never invoked alone and is not fully explained as to its relationship to all of humanity.

From Gnostic Society’s website: Devotion to the Triune Deity

See also:

Sophia (Gnosticism) - Wikipedia

Christian Gnostic Doctrine: The Valentinian Trinity and the origins of the Cosmos and the three Natures

 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

And drawing from my own profile notes on Gnosticism, I wanted to add that a good and concise picture of Gnosticism is offered in an article by Christopher Stead    (British patristic scholar and Church of England clergyman who was the last Ely Professor of Divinity at the University of Cambridge. He is best known for his work on the philosophy of the Church Fathers)   Gnosticism comprises a loosely associated group of teachers, teachings and sects which professed to offer ‘gnosis’ – saving knowledge or enlightenment that was expressed in various myths to explain the origin of the world, the human soul and the destiny of the soul.

Everything originated from a transcendent spiritual power. But then corruption set in, and inferior powers emerged – resulting in the creation of the material world in which the human spirit is now imprisoned. Salvation is sought by cultivating the inner life while neglecting the body and social responsibilities that had nothing to do with the cult.

The Gnostic movement emerged in the first and second centuries AD and was seen as a rival to orthodox Christianity, though in fact some Gnostic sects were more closely linked with Judaism or with Iranian religions like Zoroastrianism – and speaking of which - I’m starting to read up on Zoroastrianism – from what I understand it may have had some influence on Judaism, Christianity and Islam:

It has a dualistic cosmology of good and evil within the framework of a monotheistic ontology and an eschatology which predicts the ultimate conquest of evil by good. Zoroastrianism exalts an uncreated and benevolent deity of wisdom known as Ahura Mazda (lit. 'Lord of Wisdom') as its supreme being. Historically, the unique features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism, messianism, belief in free will and judgement after death, conception of heaven, hell, angels, and demons, among other concepts, may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including the Abrahamic religions and Gnosticism, Northern Buddhism,  and Greek philosophy. From Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

 

One philosopher of the 2nd century described Gnosticism as the first notable attempt to introduce existing elements of theoretical knowledge from various cultures. It was an amalgam of tendencies that were speculative and elaborate and partly based on the philosophical creed of Greeks and Romans finding a safe haven after the gradual decline of their own religions, besides the infusion of philosophies, theosophies, and religions of the East, especially those of Persia and India.

Henry Longueville Mansel  (1820 – 1871) was an English philosopher and ecclesiastic, summed up the three principal sources of Gnosticism:

1. Platonism – its philosophical form and tendencies.

2. The Dualism of the Persian religion – speculations about the origin of evil and emanations which is an idea in the cosmology - emanation is from the Latin emanare meaning "to flow from" and is the mode by which all things are derived from the first reality, or principle. All things are derived from the first reality or perfect God by steps of degradation to lesser degrees of the first reality or God, and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine.

3. Buddhism which had an antagonism between matter and spirit – and the unreality of derived existence – the germ of Docetism which in Gnosticism taught that Christ's body was not human but either a phantasm or of real but celestial substance, and that therefore his sufferings were only apparent.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

A hobby of mine is reading philosophy of religion stuff. Philosophy and religion deal a lot in concepts…metaphysics… abstract theory – one is not dealing with physical reality. In my opinion, moving from philosophy to religion is like a screenwriter pitching a high concept movie or TV plot – emphasizing a striking and easily communicable idea…it’s based on an interesting and attractive idea that can be explained in a simple way.

Christian fundamentalism interprets the words in the Bible in the most basic sense and pays little attention to metaphor or allegory. And thinking about what I learned in TWI in their Orientalism class – I think TWI tended to ‘sanitize’ the culturalisms to make them more palatable to the western Christian mind. In my opinion that was unfortunate – TWI ignored the vivid ancient culturalisms  which – if they had done their research – would cast many passages in a whole new light see  my Oct 2nd 2022 post on idiom of permission thread   and  my Oct 4th 2022 post on idiom of permission thread…folks don’t have to settle for TWI’s rinky-dink-amateurish-but-call-it-research when  there’s a wealth of legitimate scholarly resources available like NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible and other stuff  - I’m currently reading Demons: What the Bible Really Says About the Powers of Darkness by Michael Heiser – in my opinion Heiser is top-notch in biblical languages and cultures – the book is grounded in what ancient people of both the Old and New Testament eras believed about evil spiritual forces and in what the Bible actually says.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Just speculating here – maybe early Christians were more openminded in their conception of God. I don’t get the feeling from reading the church and pastoral epistles that they were that concerned – if at all - about walking a fine line of serving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior but making sure it didn’t turn into idolatry…I venture to say it might be that way for a lot of folks today …even Trinitarians…what’s the big deal anyway….It’s called Christianity for a reason.

…not that I’m a good reference point but I think of growing up in the Roman Catholic Church - way before I got involved with TWI – in my prayer life or simply thinking about God and mulling over something – I don’t recall intentionally directing my attention to God the Father and putting Jesus on hold – but I think I’d flip back and forth between the two – depending on what the issue was. For behavior-issues I probably leaned more on Jesus – WWJD might be something instinctive   – or maybe you read the gospels enough there’s ‘moral muscle memory’  – I dunno…But I definitely knew of a distinction between the Father and the Son – think of Michelangelo's creation of Adam – even as a child I got it – that’s God the Father …white hair and beard...Reflecting on wierwille's anti-Trinity rants, I think he made a mountain out of a molehill - or maybe an idol out of an icon   ...whatever...he figured out yet another way to distinguish himself from mainstream Christianity. 

T-Bone,

Your posts are very long.  BUT

I always enjoy your content and point of view.

Just now, Nathan_Jr said:

I don’t think Charlene ever claimed it to be. Nor did anyone else. 

The subject was simply, "a book".

The beauty is you don't need to know specifics.  

We're learning not to engage.  And this will help somehow.

2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

If he doesn’t get them parallel, how will he know what’s available, how to get it, and what to do with it once he’s got it?

"This wasn't God's will so God had to do such and such"

Just humorous 

2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Someone finally finished reading a book!

Maybe, but we know it wasn't inspired by God.

Are you saying God has to get his needs/wants parrallel?

In the 1970s most Wayfers were how old?