Bolshevik
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Posts posted by Bolshevik
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9 minutes ago, Charity said:
For me no for three reasons: 1. After taking the pfal class, I don't remember hearing the phrase, the Absent Christ, often enough for me to notice he was absent. 2. I was too busy noticing what twi was telling me I needed to believe and do. 3. I felt I was a good believer because I did most of the things I was told I needed to do. The only reason I didn't go into the Corps when I wanted to was because I was too nervous about asking people to sponsor me.
So basically the only longing in my mind was to carry out #3. Now for people like Mike who opening talk about the Absent Christ, they don't seem to miss him because they have the word and the ministry of reconciliation to replace the absent Christ. (see #2).
I think of when people stopped going to fellowship after years of going. How much time was given to wonder what happened? I remember direction to feel hurt, by their betrayal. Not their absence.
If a loved one died? They're just sleeping. Carry on.
Some people never feel the presence of others. And that makes the sting of absence impossible for them to feel.
To feel the void is to feel existential pain, wouldn't that be?
Ideology is often used to fill a void. The busywork of "the ministry" and the intellectual farce of "the word" numbs self awareness, and the acknowledgement of the void.
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1 minute ago, waysider said:
The collaterals take the place of the absent Wierwille.
Fahrenheit 451?
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32 minutes ago, Charity said:
I think people who have a relationship with Christ - the ones who know him and not just about him - would have no interest in staying long or at all if they were approached by someone in twi. Since they would already be experiencing Christ's love, they wouldn't be so susceptible to all the "love bombing." And if they were in the habit of checking with Christ before making decisions, I doubt very much that Christ would give them the go ahead to hang out with this group. So they were the safe ones.
That leaves people who either don't know Christ at all or if they do, didn't have Christ dwelling in their hearts in which case I think it would be difficult for him to warn them away from twi. Instead, they could easily be attracted to what twi offered and once hooked, remain for a long time. I was one of those people. The off-putting part was that I did think God had led me to twi because I was messed up and was seeking His help. But then again, because of my Catholic upbringing, all I knew about God was how guilty I felt around Him all the time. That's where the love bombing and twi's definition of standing righteous before God sucked me in big time.
Thanks for the response, Charity.
I get the idea, or at least I see supported, TWI promised relief from some other condition that was present.
Do you think the "The Absent Christ" phrase conjures up some sort of longing in people's minds?
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I received a hand written letter in the mail from a Jehovah's Witness yesterday. Apparently my new pen pal lives across town.
I don't even know any Jehovah's Witnesses. But they know me . . .
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14 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
And I think you hit the nail on the head. Christ is absent to the way international and they feel like they stand in some imaginary gap for people.
Maybe.
I'm curious about the relationship people have with Christ. Wouldn't he warn them away from Fellowship in the first place?
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If Jesus is not absent, why direct people into The Way International?
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9 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Understood
sorry - I missed that - thought you were going in another direction
The counterculture, the anti-nuclear-family stance? A wife with numerous partners. Each man needs to reduce his self worth. The reasoning sounds the same.
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2 hours ago, T-Bone said:
You’re crystal clear!
Why do I sense we’re in disagreement over something?
Is it over me citing the term inventors of evil?
Hell, I dunno – if you don’t like inventor – how about architect?
Of course, all the $hit wierwille has done has been done before and will be done again – seems like there’s a never-ending supply of Weinsteins, Epsteins, and religious leaders that abuse parishioners.
The thread is specifically about The Word of God is The Will of God and how the turn of phrase is deception.
I'm not and nobody here is claiming to know exactly what God's will is, but this phrase certainly puts VPW in the driver's seat, assuming one accepts it at face value.
Sooner or later VPW's behavior as a sexual predator usually comes up, and phrases went along with it. It is important to touch on this aspect of him.
I feel I've heard his phrases other places, though.
He is a known plagiarizist. That's one idea.
Now a lies are lies, and twisted minds think alike. So there's that too.
Using "love" and associating it with what is usually unacceptable behavior is something I seem to be recognizing more of.
"Love of God in manifestion in the renewed mind in the household. . . ." Love associated with gibberish, then that gibberish can be associated somewhere else (if A=B and B=C then A=C)
It's as if some think "love" is a magic word that can make others do whatever they want.
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18 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
Well, KJV does mention “inventors of evil things” or if you prefer NIV it’s “they invent ways of doing evil” :
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
And in light of Romans 1 - I’d have to disagree with saying wierwille was just a vector for evil.
Vector = an organism, typically a biting insect or tick, that transmits a disease or parasite from one animal or plant to another…To me that would relieve wierwille of any responsibility – whereas Romans 1 does NOT alleviate wierwille’s accountability.
Borrowed from the “60s-free-love-counterculture”? Sure however you want to look at it. But you know, inventors usually don’t whip up creations out of thin air – they usually get inspiration from something. The Wright Brothers studied birds.
It’s unclear to me what you don’t see a difference in.
You don't see a difference between a sexual predator and counterculture ?
Perhaps if you click on the previous hyperlinks in my sentence - then we convene , discuss and maybe come to an agreement on terms.
You seem to be compiling and/or confabulating sexual predator, counterculture, sociopathic and narcissistic.
Let me be clear,
Victor Paul Wierwille deserved to have his skin slowly peeled from his entire body.
Nothing VPW did hasn't not been done before, and will be repeated many times into the future.
On one hand we have Victor Paul Wierwille, descriptions of his sexual behavior are very limited. He was not known for creativity.
He lied to people and used language to equate one term with another to get people to act against their better judgement and self-interest.
Among these ideas was to confuse serving God and loving others with language that resulted in others allowing themselves to be used for sex and acquiring resources.
anything unclear or left out here?
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33 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
I don’t see a correlation between the motivation of a sexual predator like wierwille and the change in the sexual mores of young women in general.
I think the phrase "anything done with love of God is okay" . . . that's the basic reasoning . . . a person does as they please because it's all about love
and when you listen carefully the other party has to reduce themselves, because love is limited and comes from a dispenser, so they begin to associate abuse with love . . . and reality is distorted . . . good is evil and evil is good . . . pain is happiness and happiness is pain . . . and you end up with a number of people taking care of one central person
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41 minutes ago, Mike said:
. . . .
We differ on tools and attitudes toward the Bible. I thoroughly embrace the wonderful teaching that the Bible interprets itself, and therefore has only one Author.
I'd like to read your thoughts on the Bible interpreting itself... or have I already done that?
*scratches scalp*
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4 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
I imagine wierwille was original in that he was driven by his own lusts.
I don’t see a correlation between the motivation of a sexual predator like wierwille and the change in the sexual mores of young women in general. Now if you want to recast the topic to mean what is the connection of a cult-leader-sexual predator and a change in the sexual mores of young women involved in that cult, the answer should be obvious.
Victor Paul Wierwille did not invent evil. He was just a vector for it. He could have easily borrowed from the thinking of the 1960s. Free love with no cost?
I don't see the difference between VPW's logic and what I have been referring to. They are one in the same.
I think sociopathic is one of terms used. Narcissistic is another.
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7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
I keep seeing this come up. “Body count” is what they call it, I think.
Kids these days…
20 years ago it was called the "hoe phase" . . . later it's the carousel.
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On 2/10/2023 at 5:22 PM, T-Bone said:
. . .
There was no right or wrong – there was only whatever wierwille wanted to do.
He was best known for his self-referential code of conduct by such statements as:
“As long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please.”
“Anything done in the love of God is okay.”
Note in both statements there is the advantage of giving oneself a free pass to do even unconscionable acts.
All one has to do is convince themselves they love God and neighbor.
In her memoir Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape: Skedgell, Kristen: 9780972002196: Amazon.com: Books , Kristen relates the incident of wierwille sexually molesting her under the pretext that he was helping her learn to be a better lover for her future husband.
I read that and I know VPW was being a criminal pervert. I also hear in that an idea that is prevalent today . . . young women are taught by each other to take on as many men as possible at a young age . . . does that benefit themselves, or someone else?
. . . Did VPW plagiarize this idea?
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9 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
When you say "The Word" I assume you mean the Bible. In TWI the Bible is whatever victor paul wierwille says it is.
It takes the place of awareness of what actually is, including self awareness. It takes the place of clear perception by replacing it with an opaque lens.
Christ, it seems to me, is the true nature of man. And that true nature is divine. Jesus embodied this nature. "I and the Father are one."
One can't find this out by taking a class.
Yeah I'll jump between TWI meanings and my understanding of Christianity meanings. The Bible is also basis of basis of culture. Yes "The Word" in TWI was diversion tactic by VPW.
TWI emphasized Christ as "just a man" . . .
The phrase in the wikipedia link above . . . The real problem is the fact that Jesus is both present and absent,[42] an ambiguity which points to a "something more"
Victor Paul Wierwille gave answers to "apparent contradictions" . . . handing out an easy button in removing ambiguity, paradox, mystery. And making himself out to be a great one.
Perhaps we need ambiguity? Perhaps paradox drives thoughts and actions forward? To think and do things that would otherwise not occur to us?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_of_Jesus
Quotein modern times the ascension is seen less as the climax of the mystery of Christ than as "something of an embarrassment in the age of the telescope and the space probe,"[39] an "idea [that] conjures up an outdated cosmology."[40]
Yet, according to Dunn, a sole focus on this disparity is beside the real importance of Jesus' ascension, namely the resurrection and subsequent exaltation of Jesus.[25] Farrow notes that, already in the third century, the ascension-story was read by Origen in a mystical way, as an "ascension of the mind rather than of the body," representing one of two basic ascension theologies.[41] The real problem is the fact that Jesus is both present and absent,[42] an ambiguity which points to a "something more" to which the Eucharist gives entry.[43][note 1]
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Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
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2 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
The links I posted cover that as well. It's a good point of reference, not utterly exhaustive, not 100% correct but thorough nonetheless.
Aside from Christianity,
Our culture emphasizes the existence of the individual and free speech. Which we may take for granted. (Jung argues Christ is a symbol of the self) . . . There's a discussion in there of the role of Christianity and the development of these concepts . . . VPW obviously would need each person to squash that understanding of ourselves
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1 minute ago, OldSkool said:
Fair enough, after re-reading my post I sounded like a jerk, my apologies.
Christ has been changed. The transfiguration was a sneak peak and those present needed to see it and Christ needed it as well. Christ has been changed to a life giving spirit. Whatever that actually means is beyond me. Like anyone else, I only have a glimpse.
No need to apologize, Dude.
I'm emphasizing . . . The Bible itself is not Christianity . . . If all the Bibles disappeared from Earth would Christians suddenly forget what they are about?
Transfiguration . . . yeah not a word they use
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2 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
I didnt say that. You ask about various historical related items so I provided a list of links. Read em or not. I dont really care.
I didn't say you did.
The thread is about the absent Christ, which the Word takes the place of. In TWI The Word is The Bible.
There's multiple canons out there. Which one is it would be a remark to TWI. Bible worship precedes VPW.
But Christianity is at least hundreds of years older than all versions of The Bible.
Christ ascended, assumption, in a cloud which is a common symbolism 2000 years ago, which people back then would have understood. Heaven is not outer space.
There's refence in the Bible to be absent from the body, which means we died. But the dead are not alive in TWI.
Then there's the Trinity. Christ is a man and God. He is both. He is absent and present.
He is absent as a Man, present as a God?
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On 2/10/2023 at 5:22 PM, T-Bone said:
I liked the article, and my impression is it goes along similar lines to a book I read shortly after I left TWI in 1986 -
In my opinion this is probably one of the biggest topics that folks still in TWI – and those thinking about leaving should reevaluate.
“So, what is the will of God? According to the article above, it's you” – I would put it differently – both the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 and the Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 address the cognitive process of selecting a course of action by being sensitize to biblical ethical issues – if relevant - and weighing the considerations of anticipated consequences for the various alternative actions (if there is more than one option available).
Also see
8 Steps in the Decision-Making Process | HBS Online
7 Important Steps of the Decision Making Process [2023] • Asana
The Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 offers a biblical alternative to the traditional view of some Christian groups…and in the case of The Way International, an erroneous concept is taken to the extreme. The flawed assumption is that Christians desire to be in the center of God’s will and have only the narrow guideline of the Bible and direct revelation from God to work with…The Decision Making book lays out two categories of the will of God:
1. God’s sovereign will – known only to Him – this refers to God as supreme ruler and how He orchestrates almost innumerable elements (inanimate and living beings) to produce a desired effect, often surreptitiously in accordance with His own will. Think Romans 8: 26 - 28
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Jesus taught us to submit to God's sovereign will - This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 6 - most of the time we may never know what God's sovereign will is - but this attitude in prayer is the humility and trust we should have in God being sovereign.
1. God’s moral will – this God has made known in numerous ways – this is represented by the moral directives in the Bible such as:
The 10 commandments Exodus 20
The Two Great Commandments – love God and neighbor Matthew 22
The Golden Rule mentioned in Jesus’ sermon on the mount Matthew 7:12
The Moral Requirements of the law written on our hearts - our conscience bearing witness to that Romans 2
The type of guidance we should expect from God is moral in nature - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one Matthew 6 I think we’ve all had instances where we stew and fret over a situation on what to do – and we pray for some kind of guidance – so we shouldn’t be surprised that God answers our prayer by bringing to the forefront of our attention some detail of the situation that now sticks out like a sore thumb of what is the wrong thing to do.
Isn't it fascinating in Matthew 6 that it covers both God's sovereign will, and His moral will.
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When I was involved in TWI, I adopted the center-of-God’s-will concept for my decision making process – because that’s the way TWI taught us to choose. My self-confidence was slowly whittled away so that I felt more comfortable in taking the route any good little way-believer would choose. I just got off the WOW field and had thought about finishing college for a degree in fine arts. But where should I go? Back to New York? Being in my early 20s and going WOW must have kindled some wanderlust.
I think my WOW year groomed me for checking with leadership before making any big decisions. So my wife and I talked about what state we’d like to live in – contacted the limb coordinator there and asked for a list of cities that had colleges and where he would like to see 2 WOW vets move “the Word”. So, we picked one from the list. It’s funny though, we lived there 4 years and I never did find the time nor had the desire to finish college. Moving “The Word” and running PFAL classes became more important to me. This only dealt with non-moral issues (like where to live, whether to finish college) – but I mention it here to show catering to TWI’s agenda tends to eclipse one’s personal preferences, priorities, and goals.
Generally in non-moral issues TWI tended to push a decision making process that was predicated on knowing-God’s-sovereign-will…and since God’s sovereign will is known only to Him – this was all presumptive that you should do or not do something just because it’s assumed to be the will of God for your life. If the choice is between running a Ponzi scheme or going to work for a legitimate financial institution – the choice should be obvious – a Ponzi scheme is off the table. Now if the choices are 3 different legitimate financial institutions – one nearby but starting salary is just okay, one in another state that offers a much higher salary with lots of executive perks and will pay to move you and your family, and the third involves a 3-hour commute with salary just a little better than the nearby office but there’s a chance you’ll become a partner within 2 years since a close friend of yours started the company. Which do you choose? It’s totally up to you. What are your preferences, priorities, and goals. There is no wrong choice as far as God’s sovereign will or God’s moral will are concerned.
When it came to morals wierwille took situational ethics to some next level $hit. Situational ethics takes into account only the particular context of an act when evaluating it ethically, rather than judging it according to absolute moral standards.
wierwille’s perspective was the vantage point of a sociopath.
There was no right or wrong – there was only whatever wierwille wanted to do.
He was best known for his self-referential code of conduct by such statements as:
“As long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please.”
“Anything done in the love of God is okay.”
Note in both statements there is the advantage of giving oneself a free pass to do even unconscionable acts.
All one has to do is convince themselves they love God and neighbor.
In her memoir Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape: Skedgell, Kristen: 9780972002196: Amazon.com: Books , Kristen relates the incident of wierwille sexually molesting her under the pretext that he was helping her learn to be a better lover for her future husband.
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In the orange book Power for Abundant Living, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338, notice how wierwille defines sanctification:
The word “ sanctified” means “to be set apart”…when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going.
In other words, one can live like the devil, and it doesn’t matter to God – you’re going to heaven anyway.
I believe that Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 is more in line with the sentiment of the Bible:
We hear a lot of talk about “sanctification,” but what does that really mean?
James MacDonald: Here’s a definition: Sanctification is the lifelong process in which Christ-followers are refined and increasingly conformed to the behavior pattern of Jesus Christ. It’s the work of God in the lives of forgiven sinners that takes them step-by-step away from selfish, sinful patterns of living and more and more into a life that’s wholly holy and set apart entirely for the glory of Jesus Christ.
God uses hardship and the circumstances of life to shape and show our character. To be sanctified is to live in complete, continuous submission to him.
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If I may reiterate a few things you brought up. God is sovereign as "the divine orchestra conductor". We are not expected to make perfect decisions - just morally good choices.
What is the sovereign will of God? Only God knows. What is the moral will of God? It’s not that hard to figure out.
I’ll close with more excerpts from the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017:
How should Christians make decisions?
James MacDonald: The Scriptures make some choices explicitly clear, and our decision on those matters should be no-brainers. For example, should you take something that doesn’t belong to you (also known as stealing)? What’s God’s will for you in this choice? The fact that God included “You shall not steal” (Exodus 20:15) in the ten cardinal rules we call the Ten Commandments should clue us in clearly to what God wants. Easy decision. Don’t steal!
But what do you do when the choices and alternatives are not as clear? What do you do when the choice is not a matter of a specific, biblical mandate that distinguishes right and wrong?
When handling equal choices, God wants you to make the decision that would please you. God is a good Father who loves you! Within the boundaries of God’s Word, we find structure, direction, protection, and freedom. We don’t have to live in terror of making a wrong choice and violating his purposes.
Nice, a lot to digest here. Yeah my statement was brief and the best I understood, it's incomplete.
Mathew 6 is a good example, it could be read by a Wayfer in light of The Law of Believing, and thus expect results.
Or . . . The point is seek ye first The Kingdom of God . . . there's one central point . . . one main goal . . . after which all other decisions flow. Focusing exclusively each day on what to eat isn't much of a life, is it? But you will still need to make decisions about what to eat, it's just not the central theme of the day.
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5 minutes ago, Mike said:
I don't forbid it either, but I do note that most of the time the believers in Acts did not have such interactions. Years would chug by between the blue scriptures listed above. I also note that none of the interactions were conjured up or entreated by believers. God initiates such rare interactions in Acts, not believers.
I also note the rarity of such events in everyday life. I also note that not so rare are really stupid fake imaginations of interactions or relationships with Jesus.
I love it when God intervenes. I love all those interactions we see in Acts, but I do not see any instructions in them for my behavior and prayer life. I do see plenty of that in Paul's epistles.
I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus, all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be reconciled to God.
I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We can look into it.
I sense a spiritual anger . . .
lovy-dovy Jesus is an issue . . . interfering with obedience?
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On 2/10/2023 at 11:22 AM, T-Bone said:
I used to have this fuzzy notion that the ideal couple were made for each other…
…after 47 years of marriage I think I’ve demystified how marriage works. This isn’t the time and place for me to dispense words of wisdom on the married life – nor will there ever be a time and place for me since I have no words of wisdom on the married life.
I’m more suited for being in an ad for a licensed marriage and family therapist as another satisfied customer – since we have been to one a few times – to help us root out a lot of the erroneous teachings / practices of wierwille / The Way International – probably the last folks you’d ever want to seek counsel on relationships…
My only comment on having a long-term relationship is that it’s a lot of hard work and both sides will need to make some concessions…why am I posting this stuff in the humor forum? ...well... ...I don’t take myself seriously most of the time
– and I find there’s a lot of funny stuff about relationships anyway - as a wannabe comedic writer, that is a target-rich environment 
Bolshevik, I loved your posts here and here on another thread where you talked about boundaries being agreed upon implicitly or explicitly…and that by-products of each other’s internal dialog may have something to do with how we validate and acknowledge others (I’m thinking maybe it’s by me sensing the other person holds some similar values), and your great one-liners “If you love anything or anyone you don't do whatever you want. You do what's best for them. And I think self respect is involved”.
. . . I haven't known myself for 47 years . . yet
…after 47 years of marriage I think I’ve demystified how marriage works.
. . . One hard lesson might be is not to try to understand all of it. If you touch a bubble it pops. Smell the flowers don't pick them.
Or demystifying things isn't always to everyone's advantage.
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The Absent Christ?
in Matters of Faith
Posted
Christ left, ascended, transfigured, flew off on a magic cloud for a reason, so The Comforter would come.
Why? I dunno.
The disciples staring up into the sky makes me think they were feeling a loss. Sounds like they enjoyed his presence. An angel had to nudge them to keep going.
10 days later something, or someone else, was sent. Here's Jesus, then take him away, now here's The Comforter. What's happening here?
The Comforter takes the place of The Absent Christ? No, people still want Jesus back.
The Comforter is an interesting name. Comforting what? Who? How? Why?