JeffSjo

I think for ministers, and everybody else in general it is far easier to examine others rather than themselves.

And it is far easier to wield that sword than to endure it when it is directed at oneself.

I do believe that if folks don't take heed when it is directed at them justly, it will only grow progressively worse for them from that point on unless they turn.

I despise most those manipulators who deliberately use these sentiments just to beat people into some oppressed form of obedience. I believe divine justice turns them into the thing they thought to accuse others of, or worse.

(edited to change "head" to "heed" hehehe Oh, and I added the last sentence)

I could really go for a section where every BOT/BOD individual was lined up mugshot style.

Given peoples' bad experiences we might need a disclaimer for those who had just eaten....

I don't think Wierwille wanted us to have a "a much broader scope of living the bible and keeping the weightier matters of grace, mercy, justice, and truth in perspective" Oldskool!

IMO it turned to more of a mindless retemorie academy so as to not interfere w/ his sport. <_<

Always good to keep enough genuine folks around to keep selling the class though.

A relative always is sending me stuff, a lot of it abundantly laugh worthy.

Glad it hit the spot for you. :)

How about.....

Helljustfrozeover

KIDS IN CHURCH!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3-year-old Reese:

'Our Father, Who does art in heaven,

Harold is His name.

Amen.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A little boy was overheard praying:

'Lord, if you can't make me a better boy, don't worry about it.

I'm having a real good time like I am.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After the christening of his baby brother in church,

Jason sobbed all the way home in the back seat of the car.

His father asked him three times what was wrong.

Finally, the boy replied,

'That preacher said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home,

and I wanted to stay with you guys.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One particular four-year-old prayed,

'And forgive us our trash baskets

as we forgive those who put trash in our baskets.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Sunday school teacher asked her children as they

were on the way to church service ,

'And why is it necessary to be quiet in church?'

One bright little girl replied,

'Because people are sleeping.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A mother was preparing pancakes for her sons, Kevin 5, and Ryan 3

The boys began to argue over who would get the first pancake.

Their mother saw the opportunity for a moral lesson.

'If Jesus were sitting here, He would say,

'Let my brother have the first pancake, I can wait.'

Kevin turned to his younger brother and said,

'Ryan, you be Jesus!'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A father was at the beach with his children

when the four-year-old son ran up to him,

grabbed his hand, and led him to the shore

where a seagull lay dead in the sand.

'Daddy, what happened to him?' the son asked.

'He died and went to Heaven,' the Dad replied..

The boy thought a moment and then said,

'Did God throw him back down?'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For me it seems somewhat humbling too.

The things that I might speculate about based on my ex's loyalties and Barnard's reported habits in River Road Fellowship I refuse to do for the sake of my son who might read this someday, or be told about because of certain manipulators and the like.

But that does not negate the feelings of betrayal and foolishness on my part, sometimes more than others.

I think that for many people; especially those that just want to love an unseen God perhaps; there can be a tendency of taking people at their word. And in case of The Way International it seems obvious that some people were willing to replace a normal and healthy conscience with the party line, others were surely devoid of a healthy conscience from the beginning.

I ignored signs of trouble in the group and in my marriage only to be sold out by people (of whom I have no doubt anymore) more wicked than anyone else I have actually met.

How the heck is anybody who is prone to be trusting and honest not likely to be fooled by folks like these?

I kind of wonder how those that knew of the wickedness but did nothing will fare someday, y'know!?

Can anybody explain to me why we don't have pictures of her posted regularly?

I would do it if I had them.

Interesting as always Roy!

For me that was a surprise as concerning a middle ages custom I did not know about.

I'll stick to Daniel's example as much as possible...... Pray to God and respect civil rulers.

Yep. They have audited returns done every year. Subpoenas da foolz!

And surprise search warrants with about a hundred strong search group to nail multiple locations too.

Otherwise I'd guess they would just slither into the shadows again.

A wise man once said, "there are legitimate reasons to kick an old lady down the stairs... But you still shouldn't do it."

Rosie gives reason...

The Way is quick to play the "poor me" card when having to face folks like us. How uncouth, mean, anti-Christ, unloving we all are. They demand a form of protocol with all the Wayfers.

But in regards to their own actions they seem only governed by something like, "How badly can we intimidate them all without getting busted."

If I had met these guys when I was younger I might have believed Rosie's lies and lived in whatever spin The Way put on their actions. Not now.

Yeah, a good audit backed up by subpoenas, and very smart lawyers who saw through The Ways bs that were also unrelenting!

IMO It's all about the grooming, the steady, deliberate erosion of a wayfer's morals.

We all started at a certain place. Among the ones who could maintain a steady, loving, or authoritative appearance their were doubtlessly a few victims and/or abusers who could be fast tracked straight to the top of Wayworld because they could be counted to jump in the midst of the abuse.

Among others it was perhaps a steady and deliberate wearing down of standards eventually leading to yielding to temptation.

From the groomers standpoint a woman or a man that could be corrupted themselves would certainly be more willing to allow their spouses and even their children partake in the carnage.

I think such things have proven to be fairly commonplace in human history leading to even worse tragedies. It's just that for me, what the Way and the splinters are is something that I take personally.

TWO CENTS ALERT

Fly-overs for most arial shots are done during either before the spring bloom or after the autumn leaves fall so that foliage from the trees doesn't obscure everything. (I can tell from the satellite shots of my own house that they were taken during the winter.

Is it possible that that's the case here?

Yes. The woods are brown and not green.

Wheeew

For just a moment I thought my comparison of HQ to a wasteland was much more literal than I suspected.

The arrogant. yeah Jeff, I guess. Mean people are no fun at all, but they think they are,... go figure.

I find comfort in just watching the way things work sometimes. We're all naught but a little clockwork at times;. Wind-able, predictable, ticking along as our gears and cogs mesh.

Yet our ability to comprehend and choose is a marvellous thing. We all see the stars in the sky and marvel. Not a one of us has not asked ourselves - What? How? and so on.

Does it matter?

YES, yes it does!

When I think of The Way International I think many people started as wide eyed kids whose hearts were full of wonder, love, and all kinds of amazing things.

But as things developed many of these great things were ground down and beaten out of the Wayfers. They were replaced with mindless and heartless dogma in service to a corrupt organization that served Wierwille's crotch. After Wierwille the organization served a man who was two-fold a child of hell than Wierwille was. And after the forehead, another who is fourfold a child of hell than the founder. I can hardly wait for the next installment. :B)

I think the ones they feared the most were the ones who when confronted The Ways ugliness had the heart to say truthfully as a child of God, straight from the pages of 1John, "Wierwille is of the devil!"; or perhaps, "He is an anti-Christ."

Heck, I admire the ones who saw through their crapola even without scripture, just sensing or seeing something was rotten.

I believe there is a lot to be said for someone who knows the wonder of life and has a strong foothold in the scriptures though....geez, I just love those guys!

Personally, I hope some of the beaten down ones can find their way back to the faith of a little child. But I know they won't be as prone to being fooled again. Reality can be a tough teacher.

People can live with or without many answers. If you do not know exactly how electricity works - is it important? The light comes on when you flip the switch either way, so why should it matter?

Yet we want to know things. But sometimes only up to a point. It's silly when people think they "know" or have all the answers. They say - that they have all the answers, and I politely don't smile. But within every person there is value, and something to learn from them, if you spare the time.

Each of us decides what's important to us, yet some things are evident. Where they are, you don't need a teacher, you just comprehend for yourself. Sometimes you will comprehend correctly, sometimes not. If Trial & Error and experience say, you can live with what you know, you tend to stop wondering, to stop learning new things, you don't "need" to learn more,... you're done. Then it's time for you to "teach",... convert others to your point of view.

I hope I never get there.

Hopefully, any of us might have friends who love us and can say, "Boy, when did you become such a jerk!?"

(edited because since this is "doctrinal" I think I should be able to say "HELL" instead of he11.)

My wife mentioned that she was having a hard time paying attention and I almost said that to her...

Luckily I didn't.

No kidding Jim!

Aren't those thoughtless, misguided, and misapplied Wayfer sayings still in our brain a pain in the azz?!

You would have been better off saying, "Heck honey, I'm too poor to pay attention."

Every once in a while I say something that reminds me of something I learned in The Way, even if I end up deciding that what I said was ok it still creeps me out.

The overriding theme from one of the other threads is that apparently TWI does not welcome "seekers" to its SNS. You have to be a standing established follower.

I just don't get the feeling that too many people actively sought out TWI as their choice in church, more that TWI targeted people. Is that feeling correct? Were there things people were taught to look for, or was it just a blanket thing where everyone was asked?

In River Road Fellowship things got to the point a long, long time ago that only the top dog (insane as he was in retrospect) could qualify new folks. An overall feeling of paranoia and guilty conscience and who knows how many other problems already had him acting like those of us who thought for ourselves were enemies.

I think the prospect of anybody not completely in their control is frightening to them!

Apes and Peacocks!

I get the "Solomon" reference, but I don't understand the post Gen-2.

that is how classes were run in our area. Twi significantly underestimates Generation Y.

"Generation Y is much less likely to respond to the traditional command-and-control type of management still popular in much of today's workforce," says Jordan Kaplan, an associate managerial science professor at Long Island University-Brooklyn in New York. "They've grown up questioning their parents, and now they're questioning their employers. They don't know how to shut up, which is great, but that's aggravating to the 50-year-old manager who says, 'Do it and do it now.' " USA Today.

There will be the slow few who put up with bs for years but the majority will not put up with stuff.

Well, Hooray for generation Y then. :eusa_clap:

Sheesh....Wayfers I believe have been led to believe that such kids are of the devil. How pathetic is that?

I like the whole, "wonder of it all" sentiment."

Every time I read 1John it gives me a tremendous dose of that wonder and even encourages me to hold on to a little bit of that in my heart.

I don't believe a highminded academic will EVER truly understand that book....Written by someone the Lord called along with his brother James "Sons of Thunder."

My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

He that sins is of the devil,

(Exposing the anti-Christs)

I have written to you little children,

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.

He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist

etc., etc.

It seems to me the book requires a little wonder to get, certainly more than word studies. I can't recount how many times I've seen folks stumbling over definitions and grammar while a child with the spirit in him/her would understand clearly in the passing.

The topics of 1John are thunderously important, the writing manner is childishly simple.

It may reveal the liars and the deceivers, easily enough that a little child may see, but not the arrogant IMO.

[ Rivenbark ] : We asked him to resign.

Q: Resign from the board?

[ Rivenbark ] : Yes, and resign from the presidency.

Q: Why did you ask him to resign?

[ Rivenbark ] : Because it just was - it was a very hard decision. People had loved him for years, and believed in him. And he had fallen short, and people were angry. We were very concerned. He hadn't upheld the standards of the Bible. And we just thought he couldn't do his job anymore.

I sometimes seem only able to gleen just a little bit of The Way International top leadership thinking and this is one of those times.

Rosie speaks of the "standards of the Bible" as if she really has a clue...

According to Way-innie Wayfer lingo servicing the MOG was an acceptible Biblical standard.

His disciples were discussing which of them would be the greatest. This seems just like something that might happen among friends involved in any endeavor. It doesn't HAVE TO BE all contentious and mean-hearted as most seem to portray the record.

But the Lord came in told them how to be great, in effect by not trying to be great, by trying to be the opposite.

For me it brings to mind that the Lord knew how petty and competitive men can be, even among friends.

Or at the very least he used their conversation as a springboard to get them to think about he himself was meek and lowly in general.

No matter...I love the record.

So,... did Joseph cheat on his God? ...and mess around with his wife? After all, he certainly thought the reverse was true, and pondered divorce. Poor Joseph,... It really must have been one helluva conversation that kept him married to Mary. Would've loved to have heard it,... "God did what?"

One of the truly amazing untold stories in biblical histories I am sure, was what happened between Joseph and Mary when Joseph found out she was pregnant.

An angel appeared to Joseph and told him about the child and what to do with Mary even as he was minded to divorce her as was his right.

I am glad God sent the angel.

And on the "chromosome" issue I am entirely ambivalent because from just reading the record I have no idea whether God used Mary's egg or not, so while it is an interesting consideration it does seem to require some conjecture. And IMO it is not worth fighting about or making a doctrine up that of necessity requires too much conjecture, lest we be found in error someday.

\Heck, it was conjectural biblical reasoning by our middle ages brothers that had us living on a flat world in the center of the universe...right?

Composer...i doubt i could satisfy your questions the way you ask them...but i hear a genuine shout underneath.

I hear a genuine shout implicite in Composer's voice too Sirguessalot. But I'm not sure how deeply it resonates in Composer's heart.

I still "like it" but think I will leave this thread for the time being with my beliefs unscathed.

The hot dry air ripped across Rosie's face as the wind whistled around the auditorium's corner. She covered her eyes to shield them from the sand that caused rivulets of tears to flow down her cheeks, further parching her dehydrated flesh. She almost stumbled as tumbleweed bounced of her shin, tearing her nylons and leaving a moist red stain that rapidly dried to a rusty, crusty scab.

"How much longer" she wondered, "will people believe this is a fruitful garden?"

She has been preparing for this her whole life, preparing for the day when even the most die-hard Wayfer will feel the disease, their emaciated flesh bearing witness to the ministry that transformed fruitful Ohio farmland to a wasteland of broken dreams, ruined lives, and wicked lies.

"Here come the few, the emaciated", she thought. They stumbled into the auditorium even as the desert wind almost toppled their weakened flesh, stumbling, fighting for balance with their weakened legs. Brushing the sand off their face felt rough and it chaffed their skin, the sand formed rough, abrasive gobules as it mixed on their sweaty brow, leaving behind deeply scratched skin and dark crusty smears.

Looking about, their consciences screamed as they continue to see what they were told to see, a rich fruitful garden. Thoughts flitted across their minds like ethereal moths as, "This is NO GARDEN!" Always on the edge of their perception, never quite coming into concretion, the delusion still driving them into the maw.

Rosie looks on, wondering, how long will the conditioning last? How long before we loose another family, another life, another sucker!? Their are so few left she noted, but before a frown could betray her true thoughts a smile engulfed her dry, cracked countenance exposing her sharp, discolored canines as she remembered, "WE STILL HAVE OUR MILLIONS!"

(Added in the editing function)

Hey Skyrider, I like the thread and felt inspired. :B) If you prefer I will move or delete my post with no regret. I think I can get back later today.

Wow Bliss and Java!

This seems sooooo darn similar.

As concerning group dynamics as I can relate to from River Road Fellowship just a couple of observations and comments from me:

This group already has money making, outreach, a strict and controlling disciplinary structure, and it's own unique culture and language in place.

It also has a virtually identical method of finding out it's followers weaknesses and vulnerabilities as Wierwille did with some of you Corps folks.

And, it has a history of personal prophecy which IMO is a huge lever for manipulation.

__________________________________

I have to agree with Bliss's initial assessment...... If it talks like a cult, walks like a cult, barks like a cult.... then, IT'S A CULT!!!!!

As concerning the "IHOP" name:

They are already at the point where any legal pressure brought to bear on them would allow them to galvanize their followers' zeal and commitment.

Their name is a real attention getter, almost guaranteeing a certain measure of notoriety and/or attention.

And I'm guessing and even hoping that the good folks at The International House of Pancakes wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole.