JeffSjo

Hey DrWearWord,

Did you by any chance post this last one of yours in the wrong thread?

JEFF

Jeff, I agree, the return and resurrection in Matthew, Thessalonians and Christ's return in Revelation are all the same event.

You realize the implications of this now do you not? If they are the same event, then there is no "rapture" or "gathering together."

If this is so, then Christians have been fed a lie.

Wouldn't be the first time Christians have been fed a lie Sunesis.

Within academic circles I am certain that Christian doctrines are much more varied on the topic that certain popular movies may have us believe though.

More to even just protestantism than Darby/Scofield.

If, as many believe, the OT prophecies go into Matthew into the age of grace into the book of Revelation. This means, we will go through the tribulation as the event of Christ's return comes AFTER the tribulation and wrath. If its all the same dispensation/administration, let's all hope we have enough oil in our lamps when He does appear, and after all the destruction, those still standing after the tribulation and wrath - the survivors - will go out to meet him in the air when he comes.

What a bleak, dreary, awful hope for a Christian - to know they are going through the 7 year tribulation and wrath, thus, prepare to hang tough.

What, too bleak for us Christians but ok as long as it's just Israel and the unbelievers that go through it!?

Paul told us to not get high minded about being gentiles that were grafted into the tree of Israel's promises, and that was centuries before us gentiles fabricated (my assertion) not only a better hope, but a heavenly calling that leaves Israel eating dirt and us in the heavenlies. IMO that doctrine is the EPITOME OF HIGHMINDEDNESS.

You need to look at - what was the early Jewish Christians and new Hellenistic/Gentile Christians' Hope? It was "Israel's Hope" as Paul states in Acts 26. He states he is in bonds for the "Hope of Israel." He teaches "nothing but what Moses, the Law and the Prophets teach." He always goes to "the Jew first." Romans, I&II Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians, I Timothy were written when he was teaching "Israel's Hope" and that's what the believers of that time were looking forward to - entering the time of the Book of Revelation - the Kingdom was at hand, He was coming back shortly to rule. He was coming back shortly to take his rightful place on the throne of David and Rule the Nations. The Gentiles were blessed to be grafted into the Olive tree (Romans) and were blessed and graced to be able to share in Israel's inheritance after being "aliens and strangers" from the promises and covenants of Israel. So, yes those are all the same incident and the Gentiles get to hang with Israel and share in Israel's hope during the "Acts period" as I will call it.

So now, what is the answer for the Christian? We're told we need to be faithful, we're saved by our works, then we're told its grace, then we're..., etc. How do you tell them what they will go through if this is all one continuous administration? How do you reconcile these difficulties?

That's a very tall order for me Sunesis, but hopefully we can explore these things here.

I have thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.

How is this as a couple of thoughts.

We as gentiles are saved through faith in the grace of Christ(The MESSIAH).

Faith without works is dead.

This one I used in my post#47.....

HEBREWS10:

9 Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool .

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified .

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before ,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised )

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching .

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

In these verses I find both confidence to enter into the "holy of holies" and consequences for wickedness. IMO it is no easy thing to work out, but if we are still breathing, you know?

And Sunesis has pointed out some interesting things from the Gospels and Acts that speak to the Tribulation, the beginning of the "church which is his body" and the progressive revelation that IS the Bible.

The eschatological time table from Daniel helps here (as well as Jesus' comments on it, his incomplete knowledge of the future (I'm gonna get a fight on this one...) and how the book of Acts portrays things).

Bob

I don't know about a fight Bob,hehehe, just say "BOO" anytime you feel the need.

I brought it to your attention because I caught that you had dispensational issues even though I didn't know exactly what they are, but I am expecting an interesting conversation from you Bob.

I am glad you bumped this one because I feel I've been sitting on it for a long time.

No... I'm not saying I bear no responsibility. But why, when I was sitting in the Scientology Temple receiving a pitch, did the Lord tell me to scoot, yet on the other hand why did He orchestrate things so the very first twig teaching I heard was about something He had shown me supernaturally just a few months before? Why the Way? There were plenty of other cults around? Why did the Lord put me in Minnesota when I was there? Why did He put me in Indiana to get involved with CES? He DID open the eyes of my understanding at crucial points. Why didn't He do it sooner?

Yes, the metaphor (which requires a leap of the imagination to understand) of Jesus being a good shepherd is a wonderful thing. But He is also my Lord (which is also a metaphor that raises different images). If He tells me to do something, I'm supposed to do it, even if it's not pleasant. Jonah comes to mind. Does He want everybody to do the same job? No! But I am as certain as I am of anything that the job I have described is the job Jesus preserved and equipped me to do. If a person doesn't think Jesus would do something like that, then perhaps their view of what it means to be Lord is a little narrow.

Love,

Steve

Hey Steve,

To me you owe no justifications for your time in The Way International, but then I don't usually bother explaining myself to anybody that tries to put me down for it. And for whatever it's worth to you, sometimes I act like people are putting me down for it when they aren't, and other times people do put me down for it but that's not usually to my face.

What else can we do but trust the Lord to lead us on? If we do have anything genuinely good to contribute to ANY group we now belong to I can only hope that we can prove that good and perfect will of God with all patience and forbearnce...you know...biblical Christianity. :)

I never heard anybody who read the bible insult David for the horrors that would have kiled and/or ruined most of us. But there are Psalms that indicate that David knew what it was to be a gazingstock(Isn't that the word Paul used?...hmmm) to everybody around him.

Jesus suffered the crucifiction and even before hand in OT scripture it is prophecied that he was esteemed smitten by God and people hid their faces from him, yet in truth he was doing God's will.

I can only hope you learn and see the things you need to to be led by the Lord Steve. I will say it without the unwelcome commentary on my part as concerning your time in The Way and CES though.

By the way, Gen-2, there's a book called The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm you might like if you enjoy wrapping your mind around paradigm shifts. They had a concept called "tonic motion", and I often wonder if Stoic scientists might have been able to get to string theory without going through atomic theory. I have recently seen a feature of a verse in Paul's writing that may depend on understanding "tonic motion" to get the full significance.

Love,

Steve

Considering what Gen-2 has shared about her work and education this might work for her but because I don't have a clue as to physics I wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole.

(edited to correct typos)

unholy crap Shellon, I mean the E-mail.

If I ever get the chance to tell anybody that unloads cruel, mean, deluded, and insane b.s. like that I hope I feel up for it in the moment.

I'm glad you are doing ok with it though.

Steve,.........................

" I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just."

don't we all?

get some sleep guy...

Hiya,

Let me quickly share how I felt all night when I realized that I wrote,"the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just."

Here it is...........AAAAGGGGHHHHH!

I knew it made no sense but I couldn't get back till now.

What I meant to say is,(Caps are for emphasis, not for yelling)"THE GATHERING TOGETHER is the same as the resurrection of the just." But I mean that what Wierwille taught as the gathering together is the resurrection of the just.

____________________________

This is how I tie things together now from the gospels to the book of Revelation as concerning Dot Matrix' original question.

Jesus said he gathers the wheat .................and the tares.

resurrection of the just......................and the unjust.

And perhaps because I was already questioning the validity of the "Thousand Year Reign" that Revelation mentions I am suspecting that that once occuring scripture may be a deliberate addition to the text along with Dot's Baptacostal minister, but if that ends up being an accurate yet once occurring scripture I will look for better understanding, heck, it wouldn't be the first time.

alright,..... I don't even understand Jeff's questions.

There have always been 2 resurrections. One for the just - and - one for the unjust

But there are two times when things (peoples) get gathered

The first time is when the dead in Christ shall rise, Behold I show you a mystery! and the living are changed and scoot off the meet the lord in the air, blah blah blah...

The second is the one Jesus talked about it happens on that merry olde Thief-in-the-Night day. One shall be taken one left, blah blah blah... but none of those people are dead, and it's not the gathering of the BODY I siuspect tares get gathered first etc,.... just as Jesus said,..... where's the problem? What am I missing here?

edited to add

those 2 I lumped as gatherings,... well neither of those is all dead people, so they can't be resurrections, you don't resurrect alive people.

Hi Gen-2,

Let me try to clarify this, but it's all I can do tonight and I won't get back till tomorrow sometime.

I think you are right, that the resurrection is when people get up. I think we may consider the resurrection of the just and the unjust if this thread developes that way, God willing.

Wierwille taught that the "gathering together" for the body of Christ was different and preceding both resurrections. I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just.

I think that the ultra-dispensationalism that seperated the "gathering together" from the resurrection is a result of reading into the scriptures an idea that is not explicitely stated and IMO is also improper "eisegesis" of the scriptures.

I think that this view fairly directly led to a group-think that allowed adultery to be ok and hashed the Word to pieces because where I see continuity Wierwille taught seperation of administrations.

I meant Matthew 13:40. That should teach me not to look my Bible without my magnifying glasses on!

Just think about it for awhile, and let it soak in. Jesus is talking about the end of THIS AGE, the end of THIS PERIOD OF TIME.

Love,

Steve

Awesome for me too Steve! :)

I'm copying and pasting this from my post #32 if y'all don't mind: :)

_____________________________________

And as far as the resurrection verses a TWI style gathering together.....

The epistles SAY resurrection.

The gospels teach of a GATHERING.

IN NEITHER GOSPELS OR EPISTLES DOES IT SAY THAT THE EVENTS OF GATHERING AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT!

So since the scriptures do NOT ACTUALLY SAY THEY ARE DIFFERENT it is left us to consider the matter.

But since I the scriptures in the epistles teach about the resurrection and do not say to look for anything different than what is already taught in the gospels nobody has the right to say that it is commanded by God to look for anything other than what the scriptures plainly teach.....RESURECTION.

Once I saw this according to the scriptures it was a DUH moment for me that made it very simple to see that I was never correct in believing that Wierwille taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century.

The first century believers were taught the RESURECTION and that the events of "gathering" were as the Lord had already taught in the gospels.

I made a quick point here, then looked at it again, and then decided to get rid of it because even I could see that it was a weak point.

THESE VERSES SPEAK OF THE "GATHERING TOGETHER":

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

THESE VERSES REFER TO THE SAME THING IN THE GOSPELS:

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

NOW, FROM THE EPISTLES:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

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Where does it say in the scriptures that these are different events? I have never found one prophet or apostle that has "SAID" they are different things.

Maybe we have been shown improper eisegesis? (Thank you Steve :) )

______________________________________

Do we not need to confess our sins to be cleansed by the blood and stay IN CHRIST?

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

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Do we need not to put away lies and hold on to a clear conscience to be fruitful?

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

______________________________________

HEBREWS 6:

3 And this will we do , if God permit . 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come , 6 If they shall fall away , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to an open shame . 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed , receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak .

I THINK THE PROPER READING OF HEBREWS IS THAT EVERY WAYFER SHOULD THINK IT IS ADDRESSED TO HIM/HER. :mellow: SERIOUSLY.

______________________________________

HEBREWS10:

9 Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool . 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified . 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before , 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised ) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching . 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

_______________________________________

According to Hebrews ch10, believing and being enlightened holds us more accountable before God than we were before we believed. And the consequences for deliberate wickedness...HOW ARE THEY ANY LESS THAN JESUS WARNED IN THE GOSPELS?

(ADDED IN EDITING)

BOTH THE GOSPELS AND THE EPISTLES TEACH RESURECTION, RIGHT?

I wasn't able to read more than a few lines of the donkey's site linked-to in the first post of this thread. I no longer respond seriously to people who speak or write in pseudo-prophetic voice, and the donkey's pseudo-prophetic voice is worse than my Inspector Cluseau inspired phoney-French accent!

However, the responses on this thread have led to a number of interesting notions, some of which we'll eventually be getting around to on the Exegesis vs Eisegesis thread. More from an Old Testament/Gospels point of view rather than an Epistles/Revelation aspect.

One of the words translated "world" in the JKV is aion or "age", which definitely does mean "a period of time". It's the word translated "world" in Matthew 8:40, Luke 20:34&35 and Luke 18:30. From the tone of your posts, Jeff, you may be interested in looking at these.

Love,

Steve

I can't find Mat 8:40 so I think you must have meant another verse Steve.

This is Luke 20:34,35 in KJV:

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry , and are given in marriage : 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry , nor are given in marriage :

Luke 18:30:

30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting

I will look at them more, but felt like posting them in the mean time.

I will be interested in seeing how things develope for you here or on the other thread.

Sounds good Robert.

I'm looking forward to going over it some more. :)

I am a long time experienced debater and set high standards, however I welcome all reasonable responses and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christains.

Isn't saying

"...and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christains."

insulting and deragatory to Christians on several different levels?

GEE, if I could just manage to overcome that tendency of mine to lose track of my thought process after 30 seconds I might be able to come up with a cogent answer for you! :B)

Either that or in spite of your lengthy post Composer I feel you are not even close to being in a place where I would consider a serious discussion with you, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

I don't willingly tolerate disrespect toward non-christians here composer, at the very least I am not aware of anytime where I let it pass without saying something. And with other proffesing Christians here I have managed to keep a level of respect in spite of our different beliefs.

But so far you manage (speaking just for myself of course) to not be imposing, just annoying.

__________________________

And just for Roy,

God Bless You and I hope the things you desire and share here grow out of you like a fruitful tree planted next to the river. :)

__________________________

THAT IS ONE HOT AVATAR SUNESIS! :B)

Is it true that mercy (so-called) depends on how much of a fellow bastard one is with the top dogs too!?

Is it true that each and every move these turds do to one another has an underlying edge of "gee, I wonder if I'll win"!?

Whatever happened to not being a respecter of persons?

What happened to judgement and mercy without flattery, bribery, leverage, or calculated survivability?

Before I came here I never even heard of Roasaline, Oldskool. Now I just wanna puke.

Craig Martindale vs. David Koresh

One was a crazy cult leader who slept with married women whose husbands were loyal followers and had numerous screwy, nutty, and stupid doctrines who isolated his followers as best he could in order to dominate them...........

and the other was David Koresh!?

As far as control issues in The Way International goes, nothing would surprise me anymore Oldskool.

Adding financial hardship to the mix would be consistent if they use it to break people down for either rehabilitation (so-called) or laying groundwork for both sending others a warning and eventual expulsion.

But of everything you bring up leading hopefully to some substantive discussion what irks me the most is what you refer to as "punishment assignments." What a crass, shallow, and mean "caricature" of biblical Christianity The Way International has become. Imagine Peter sending Phillip the evengelist to Samaria as a punishment assignment!!! And imagine if in true Way Ministry fashion Peter insisted on doing such a cold hearted and calculating move while insisting that living love is maintaining the thin venere of "bless you Phillip" and "you're the best Phillip" and "renew your mind Phillip." Or how about if Peter found his followers became more pliable if he deliberately engineered a situation where they were completely seperated from all other aquaintances and had no personal resources?!

I could go on and on, but instead I hope the point is clear.

(edited to replace "bad copy" with "caricature") :B)

Then stop being that guy. You're a grownup living in a free society. You are free to choose what guy you want to be. So start being that guy. It really is up to you.

Uuuhhhh,

Thanks for the advice Bowtwi, I guess.

I already get that it's up to me, actually I am really quite happy that it's up to me. :P

I have managed to find a seemingly good place to live with my regrets.

Looking for mercy, living with honesty to the best of my ability.

OMG!! Is this the GreaseSpot version of the "Never Again List?"

Maaayyybeeee it is.

I guess what it is to anyone else is up to them.

If the Way International lawyers become responsible for a whole new level of annoying and disrespectful lawsuits within Bible Scholar circles it may IMHO be the most damaging thing they have done so far to society as a whole.

Certainlty their lawyers would be happy pioneering and expanding a whole new area of litigation within society. While I don't like how they may feel that way I can understand it.

I despise how The Way international is litigious, and if this suit brings a whole new class of needless court interfeerence into religious matters I will despise The Way international for it even more than I despise their actions so far.

I don't think its twi's lawyers.. more like rosie's lawyers.. I understand the bot and staff tows the line in respect to every wicked mandate she issues..

"well. There's a little crummy group we can easily pick on and win.. We need to *prevail*, and win one for da gipper. ahem, I mean the vicster. I *suggest* we go forward and litigate.. what do you think?"

"yass boss" "yeppers boss.." "fo shure boss..."

"good. let's have a vote then.."

The irony of all this.. there is probably nobody left in the organization who can even read aramaic, nor even recognize the alphabet..

The only thing that would make sense here, to me..

rosie happened to be the reincarnation of Newton, of course without the intellect..

Hi Ham!

Beteen my post and yours something stuck in my craw, and it was remembering how Geer credited himself with great detective work and blamed the lawyers in "The Passing of the Patriarch".

What a fool I was to believe Geer, he actually took credit for blaming the lawyers for being good lawyers.....yep.....they actually managed to figure out how they could beat the Swiss Cantons.

For me in this case I had to deal with this whole idea only to discover another instance of TWI spin and lies.

I don't blame the lawyers for wanting to explore groundbreaking areas of litigation. That's what good lawyers are expected to do....DUH! I only hope that if this case is as advertised that a wise judge would shut this area of litigation down before it becomes the new trend in religious circles.....what a freakin mess that would be.

In this case I'm happy to lay the lay the lion's share of the blame on the rightful recipient with you Ham, I'll point right at Rosie too! :)

I don't want to be the guy who brings people to a corrupt organization anymore!

I don't want to be the guy who argues about the trinity and only makes things worse anymore!

I don't want to be the guy who crushes new believers of any group just to hear myself talk anymore!

I don't want to be the guy who thinks I'm serving God when my actions only hold up a corrupt organization anymore!

I don't want to be the guy who ignores people who tell me about organizational problems when they need my help anymore!

I don't want to be the guy who crams my beliefs down anyone's throat anymore!

I've been wrong before.

I don't want to be the guy who assumes any group's leaders are good when they are not anymore!

I don't want to be the guy who assumes any group is bad when they are not anymore!

I don't want to be the guy who believe's a liar like Wierwille anymore!

Hello James Trimm,

I probably will not aquaint myself with the specifics of your case to comment on specifics.

But I am fully convinced that after The Way International has played fast and loose with many, many copyright infringement issues for many decades that hearing them bring a copyright infringement suit smacks of the very worst hypocrisy and worthless values on their part IMO.

As such I wish you well except for that small part where I really have no idea how you yourself have operated in regards to any of this. :B)

If the Way International lawyers become responsible for a whole new level of annoying and disrespectful lawsuits within Bible Scholar circles it may IMHO be the most damaging thing they have done so far to society as a whole.

Certainlty their lawyers would be happy pioneering and expanding a whole new area of litigation within society. While I don't like how they may feel that way I can understand it.

I despise how The Way international is litigious, and if this suit brings a whole new class of needless court interfeerence into religious matters I will despise The Way international for it even more than I despise their actions so far.

Interesting question Leafytwiglet. :)

The comparison between Wierwille and David, whether started by Wierwille or one of his enthusiastic followers was definitely incorporated into followers of The Way Internatonal through deliberate misinformation propoganda.

Wierwille undoubtedly found it convenient to liken himself to David because nobody who believes the scriptural record would question David's calling. IMO not questioning David's calling forces us to also come to terms with how a good man can sin badly. It wasn't just Uriah's murder that got David in trouble either, God gave David consequences for being such a warlike king later on too!

I AM WILLING TO QUESTION WIERWILLE'S CALLING HOWEVER, even though I choose to believe David's calling as factual history.

I do not believe Wierwille taught the word as it has not been known since the first century. So either Wierwille didn't teach what he knew or the claimed promise to Wierwille was a dam lie! I believe Wierwille's report of God's promise was a dam lie, but include the other possibility here just for full consideration.

For David's sin against Uriah (according to the prophet) David's own son rose up against him and openly laid with David's concubines even though David's sins were secretive in nature. Wierwille was never punished and never openly repented of his sins.

Some awesome psalms came as the result of all the tumult that followed David' sin. The best Wierwille ever could do was plagiarize and otherwise copy the work of more capable and better men and sell most all of us at one time or another his b.s. mogdom.

WIERWILLE AND THE WAY INTERNATIONAL COMPARED WIERWILLE TO DAVID AS THE RESULT OF WIERWILLE'S INSANITY IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE MYTH OF WIERWILLE'S MOGDOM.

HERE WE MAY FREELY COMPARE WIERWILLE TO DAVID TOO, AND HERE I FEEL FREE TO POINT OUT THAT COMPARING WIERWILLE TO DAVID ONLY DISCREDITS THE WAY INTERNATIONAL AND ALL THEIR TIP-TOP LEADERSHIP.

Hmmmph!

Isolate the prey AND teach em' the bible.

What a wicked racket!

The only thing I know for sure is that I don't know why. :(

Thank you Cman, but I'm going to try posting a link...something I recently learned to do via copy and paste. :)

My marraige was broke up in just such a fashion.

This thread really hits home for me.

The day they moved my wife and my son out of my house behind my back the thug in charge of my splinter group's property told me that I wasn't welcome back to fellowship until "this shameful situaion is resolved." Meaning, I had to go to them and beg to get my family back.

This particular thug reportedly moved back to Pennsyvania after learning of Barnard's extracirricular activity with the women and I was told he wanted to kill him.

At least the bastard who moved my wife out got a smaaaalll taste of the crap he helped put me through for several years in succession.

(I edited the post to remove a typo.)

I wish I understood more about computers and the internet.

Two times over the last two days I've googled "Jeff Sjolander" and not a single GSC thing came up on the list. This forces me to change my facebook profile because I tell folks who see my facebook page to just google my name.

Even though sometimes computers are completely quirky with this type of stuff I can not help but wonder what is really going on. But after consideration it seems unlikely that anyone at google would deliberately interfere with the normal results of a google search.

I am completely unqualified to know the difference between deliberate interference and network quirkiness.