JeffSjo

Could you point out ' what specifics ' you are referring to and we can discuss them?

THIS IS A COPY OF MY POST #34......

Been thinking about this one for a bit, since reading Sirgues.... in another thread.

I think the key for me to getting what seems like good footing for me in this area is the consideration of the fall of man.

Without the fall there would be no death and human suffering IMO.

With "the fall" we get death, suffering, a god (so-called) of this world, humankind that is born seperate from God by nature and a creation that is bound to groan along until some unknown future date where we have promises of a permanently better place.

I think we may choose to believe a better place is coming. But even then, this life is all that we actually know so the promise is automatically speaking of things that can not be or is not possible now.

Personally, I can not grasp that God and satan had a conversation about Job's suffering before it began but that's what it says.

Personally, if I had a piece of work that I expected to be dear to me but others came along and mucked it up I would be hard pressed to imagine doing anything with it besides destroying my messed up work right away and starting over.

If God had done the same with a creation that wasn't just a little off, but where the main players took themselves completely out of touch with the hand of creation...

I wouldn't Be Here to either come to terms OR to beeotch about it.....

I wouldn't be here to suffer or have hope for a better future eventually.....

I wouldn't be here to either hope for the seemingly impossible OR settle for an existence without any spiritual values of any kind....

Personally, things seem unbearably bleak if all that I ever have is a few years to breathe and blink out of existence without any hope of anything better.

I can imagine a loving God allowing His creation to creak and groan on in spite of tremendous suffering in the present AS LONG AS He has something better in mind after all the wickedness, suffering, and unfairness of this life is over...At least He didn't break it down into nothingness again and start over because if He had done that I wouldn't even be here to beeotch about it.

I don't really see the point of doing this with you right now. If testimony of my belief is something you do not even see as evidence then I am somewhat limited. And if you do not wish to discuss my freely stated perspective then i am at a loss for more to say right now. Heck, I am who I say I am but this isn't even a place where I can prove that, nor would I choose to if you thought to require evidence of my identity.

Like I can prove a darn thing, not gonna happen here.

Also the sum total of your evidence that the story book is the words of a God given to men, remains nothing but a warm & fuzzy ' feeling ' you have, that this is the case, is that correct?

Cheers!

The sum total of what I am saying to you may be considered testimony I suppose. As to my more personal experiences beyond what I've already shared here at GSC, rest assured that there are many experiences that I consider entirely private in nature. My "warm & fuzzy" feelings, or any other feelings are something that I may not share. But the way you reference the substance of my beliefs is clearly insulting and so I will probably cease my part in this conversation for now.

These are funny Abigail, perhaps because their silliness sounds very human and something I can relate to also, sometimes seemingly more than others of course. :B)

In this medium of posted words I tryyyy to give folks the benefit of the doubt as to motivation even in those cases where the actions seem the same.

But if it quacks like a duck..............

TWO-CENTS ALERT

As if looking at their reported growth of millions of dollars during these lean times at The Way International wasn't bad enough we have had very credible sharings concerning their "cooking the books" such as......

i don't know what they keep now, how many versions and how many copies of versions of their financial "books"........or where they bury the real facts and truth of their duplicitous, fraudulent, financial acrobatics.......the real facts behind the "income" they stole, laundered and cleaned up during the years when their lack of significance in terms of numbers and members allowed them to cruise below the government's various radar screens.......

but, i do know, that early after i left the swamp of new knoxville in december, 1986......i "hosted" a team of IRS and US justice department investigators for 5 days at my newly rented house.......i was able to provide them with hard copies of the three....that's right!..count ,em THREE sets of books which rearranged and juggled the income and expenses of the ROA 1986, for bookstore sales and expenses, food and housing income and expenses, "abundant sharing" totals, and that type of stuff........so, twi's 501©3 tax exempt status was revoked for several years.......but that was it.....the fact that during the years 1982-1984, we operated the entire US Trunk at a rate of only 8% of the net income we brought in from abs and the sales of bookstore items and conferences, advances, and "events", was simply a testimony to "excellent" business practices........hear me........out of the almost 50 million dollars PER YEAR of income during those years, it only took 8% of that to pay all the bills for all the full-time, part-time staff in the limbs, and at HQ for the trunk-related departments!!...........that's a net profit of over 40 million bucks a year for those years..........

they got their 501©3 back after five years..........2 sets of checkbooks?????..........at least!.......the real facts?.......who knows???.......one thing i do know, is that rosie, donna, the doofus from okie, coward allen, et al, are living off the profits made decades ago by the foolish faithful who gave their all for "his highest".........whatever's left is what they're stll sucking off of today...........hope they're enjoying sleepless nights with guilt-ridden dreams.......but knowing the kind of creeps they are..............i doubt it......................peace.

IMO the millions they show is probably just a fraction of their real financial standing.

A terrible tragedy for sure.

I hope the surviving child finds a place to enjoy his/her survival eventually without any feelings of guilt, whether or not it was a legitimate miracle.

Like coming out of The Way can be, there will doubtlessly be many hard things to come to terms with.

I'm just hoping for the kid's peace of mind, y'know?

Your post got me wondering...does anyone ever grow old and live out their life as a happily tithing member of TWI? One would think, by reading this forum, that everyone leaves after a while -- be it 10, 20 or 30 years.

It seems likely to me Soul Searcher that unless one is completely corrupted and blinded by The Way International's methods that people can not and will not be allowed to stick around.

Unless someone happenes to have leverage as in, "I have dirt I can dish on The Way" it doesn't seem likely that anybody would be allowed to stick around either. But that would only make them another monkey in The Way barrel, y'know?

Except maaaaybe for those few who it would have been bad public relations to toss aside, like possibly Mrs. VPW was, and they kept her pretty isolated from what I know.

_____________________________

This one I just posted in "Doctrinal" but happen to like how it applies here.

And as I expressed before, I generally speaking don't choose to force people to look at ugly realities, they will have to soon enough as long as they keep breathing. The single notable exeption as it pertains to reality here at The Greasespot is that many of us are in various stages of recognizing "The Way" for what it really was and I see great potential for good in that realization, but it is still not anything with which I take any kind of glee in and constantly hope to find a good balance between reality and care for the individual.

But as concerning the folks who have been hurt the worst I can feel downright angy. Sometimes for even just the possible benefit of comforting their hearts I will as some say, go to far. But from my persective as their hurts are real and the damage has been devastating to many I mostly worry about not having gone far enough.

Thanks for that.

You are welcome.

I have been searching earnestly for 50 years and not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward" at all composer. But for the record, while I try to remain open to explore new concepts and view points I don't exactly have a habit of backing down from aggressive people.

I think you are free to think of us "storybook" types as you will. Since I don't consider the Bible a simple story book I have become use to letting people hold their own opinions, and like I said before, my plate sometimes seems full with reasoning with others who say they take the scriptures more seriously than you do and sorting out my own "Way International" history.

I agree with you that many of them when faced with the reality I present they prefer to cling to their story book ideology. Like a crutch that doesn't legitimately support them but they keep using it regardless?

"Reality" is easily confuse with "persective" IMO.

My "perspective" as concerning scripture easily handles your "reality" but is at odds with your "perspective."

And as I expressed before, I generally speaking don't choose to force people to look at ugly realities, they will have to soon enough as long as they keep breathing. The single notable exeption as it pertains to reality here at The Greasespot is that many of us are in various stages of recognizing "The Way" for what it really was and I see great potential for good in that realization, but it is still not anything with which I take any kind of glee in and constantly hope to find a good balance between reality and care for the individual.

But as concerning the folks who have been hurt the worst I can feel downright angy. Sometimes for even just the possible benefit of comforting their hearts I will as some say, go to far. But from my persective as their hurts are real and the damage has been devastating to many I mostly worry about not having gone far enough.

Why is it composer, that you are aggressive? What motivates you to say such things as a persons beliefs are insufficient? I give you credit for your own right to reason but you are repeatedly insulting, why?

Many form also a social network among other story book believers and they prefer that make believe world they manufactured for themselves rather than the cruel and sadistic world this (I call) Intelligent Designer (God for want of a better word) has created, bringing misery, suffering, pain, diseases, earthquakes, tsunamis, amputees, physical cruelty, blindness etc. etc. for many and yet so called christians keep bleating about their ' God of Love ' which is in reality a misnomer and the evidence it does ' Love its creation ' is virtually non-existent.

You have every right to think that even though I disagree. If you wish to continue thinking so it is your right.

If you wish to take up my biblical views as I have posted them already you are free to do so. I suspect we will still disagree if you go that route.

But if you wish to describe my words as "bleating" along with your many implications of logical breakdowns and insufficiency as concerning Christians I will end up not backing down to you I assure you.

And from my perspective as you choose to hold onto your insults without taking up the specifics of my previous post you are just another person with a stong opinion without the cohones to take on a particular opposing viewpoint with reason and/or logic youself....HHHmmmm...Isn't that exactly what you accuse us Christians of being?

I just said this down in "doctrinal".

No matter what our personal references are for relating to this life I think it is ok that both you and I can acknowledge that some things that happen are ugly and monstrous. Some of my fellow Christians seem unable to deal with ugly and monstrous honestly, but being human and all themselves I wouldn't take it upon myself to shove there noses in uuuugly and say, "Look at it" or anything. Life itself has a way of making us face the uuugly things in it's own time.

But as it applies to this thread, it has been a revelation for me to see the uuugly the The Way International really is.

It has been freeing to realize that even though I was wrong in giving so much of my heart and mind to The Way over most of my adult life that they never, ever were worthy to be anything that I centered my life, goals, and self-assessment around.

So in this case it seems pretty darn obvious to me that it is well overdue that I realize the Way for the uuugly that it really is.

Wierwille was NASTY, and tip-top leadership pretty much has put their own spin on his corruption.

IMO all the good hearted and well intended religious cliches will not change what The Way International really is, it's been nasty from the beginning.

Boy, it sure has been a while since we've heard from Jonny.

He shared one of his friends committed suicide after having his marraige split up according to herr Vicster's will.

He saw the possibility of selling out for free (so-called) sexual favors from HQ headquarters by a supposed member of staff, a pretty Italian girl offered to him if I recall correctly.

And for all that we didn't seem to see everything eye-to-eye...go figure. :B)

Oh yeah....happy belated birthday Jonny!

I wonder how many people will still be manipulated by her public displays of outrage without realizing how bassackwards virtually every single one of their "motus operandi" really are?

Ok, I think that is enough commenting on my part.

I really, really want to hear what you ex-innies make of this concrete information as compared to The Way's public statements and the implications as pertaining to their need for more ABS.

I can't wait to see what some of you ex-innies make of this!

I'm pretty certain that along with her real personal habits this is something Rosaline would rather not have made public.

Ok so we are now along to Page 3 and the legitimate and overwhelming evidence that this God ' loves us ' remains at zero?

The legitimate evidence that it is a monster that causes / doesn't prevent atrocities, rapes, murders, diseases, ailments, amputees, disasters (earthquakes, tsunami's, plagues, drought etc.)

The story book alleged trinitarian monster of a God is even worse by its lies and hypocrisy, including interfering to save Isaac and save itself as a baby Jesus godman person, from Herod's men, but was nowhere to be found to save Abel nor to save the other babes slaughtered by Herod's men.

Well Composer,

Personally I could wish you would respond directly to some of the reasoning that myself or others shared with you on this thread. But because the Greasespot is an open forum and all, nothing requires you to do so.

No matter what our personal references are for relating to this life I think it is ok that both you and I can acknowledge that some things that happen are ugly and monstrous. Some of my fellow Christians seem unable to deal with ugly and monstrous honestly, but being human and all themselves I wouldn't take it upon myself to shove there noses in uuuugly and say, "Look at it" or anything. Life itself has a way of making us face the uuugly things in it's own time.

And whether or not my intentions seem unwise to you I can't help but wish that someday you would find/"be led into" a world view that would honestly allow you to Love God. But it seems for the present time that there is not a darn thing I can do to offer you the kind of proof you seem to be looking for.

Heck, I'm not even sure you would change your mind if offered proof but I can not.

And for the record, among bible believing folks, some people seem unable to change there mind when offered convincing scriptural proof. God only knows how many times I might have fallen into the same folly though, so I try to hold back on certain judgements, y'know.

When a man thinks he's great he tends to think he is the big man and treat people's situation with a high hand. For me this is synonymous with "puffed up" in KJV terms.

When a person is not puffed up they can approach people with humility.

When a person ministers for a twisted and abusive organization they tend to be puffed up and claim they are being folks' servants at the same time, only proving they really don't get it IMO, from what I have seen.

A friend of mine is involved with a certain ministry and get this-he has to go to therapy because he is being accused of having an anger problem because he gets into fights with his wife over their relations with the ministry. It's the ministry that is saying he is the one with anger problems and that "he" should be in therapy. No the wife doesn't need therapy and so he goes and does therapy and the therapist says he has no anger problems. Yet the ministry refuses to believe this and insists he keeps going for therapy.

What's wrong with this picture?

I'm not sure that it matters to me which ministry this friend of yours belongs to Polar Bear, but the cult-like priorities that seem to be poised to hurt them both (husband and wife) seem all too familiar to me.

I hope it doesn't end too badly, I'm guessing the organization in question doesn't have to be bad through and through to have this happen in one place to one couple.

I'm hoping for them that the group drops the hammer on the individuals responsible for putting your friend in such a bad place.

Or if that doesn't happen I hope that both of them eventually see through the twisted organizational perspective and cultish mind set.

That is pretty much where I go to when I think of feet washing Tom.

I don't pretend to know what people actually get out of it when a particular church sanctions some attempt at carrying through with similar actions to what the Lord did in John 13, but I do think that record is the one I must go back to every time I consider the matter. Along with anything else we may do it seems to me that the Lord's actions are singularly unique and head and shoulders above our best tries, but that just necessitates grace and mercy IMO.

Jon 13: (NIV)

1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.

2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.

5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"

7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

Verse seven here gets to me, to think the Lord did it and said in effect, "You won't get it now but you will later. How cool is that!? I read it and still wonder something like, "OK, what did they get later and when did they get it?, after the crucifiction?, after Pentacost?, after Judas' suicide? There may be different times that different disciples "got it" in their own way too.

8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."

Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"

10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you."

11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Ok, so here the Lord says they are clean except for Judas. And later it says satan entered Judas' heart. I've heard many long sermons speculating about Judas' motives but I keep going back to equating being unclean with deliberate wickedness, it seems to fit with what leads to the promised garbage fires coming at the Bema too IMO, and fits with the epistles.

It is my best understanding that it is the Lord's work, grace, mercy, and love that cleans a whole person. Here the Lord declared his disciples clean except for Judas.

I think each and every bit of our Christian fellowship can possibly fall into the category of helping others in their walk, whether doctrine, reproof, correction, encouragement, comfort, etc.; in effect we may serve each other by washing each other's feet with humility as our Lord did.

12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them.

13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.

14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.

15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

But going back to Barnard's feet (see post #4), I'm certain that he was full of deliberate wickedness. Any foot washing I might have hoped to do was a complete waste of time. His actions have since proved it too me.

I believe the Lord will reward him according to his works.

I was far, far away from everything going on at HQ and among leadership for all of my time in The Way International.

I will never, ever forget the one woman who told me my Limb leader had propositioned her to service the men-of-God (so-called) at a limb meeting in the spring of 1983.

I will never, ever forget walking away from her after my stupid, stupid answer.

I'd be interested in hearing the origination of a pretribulation gathering discussed here. But all I can do is read what you all say right now. :)

Ohh BTW, Nice to see you on this topic Wolfman!

I'm not qualified to dicuss any of these folks, but even to me it seems Darby or the folks who worked from his material had a big part in the "late in Christianity" (as far as I know) developement of this idea.

Either way, I don't think the doctrine can be directly attributed to scriptural teaching. IMO the scripture teachings are that the Lord gathering His people and the resurrection remain consistently taught from the gospels through the book of Revelation.

These conditions led to an exreemely emaciated and wasting away reality while they console themselves with delusions of granduer.

Preservation society comes to mind.

The way international that once was a multi-campus, air plane owning, many many thousand strong ministry is dead. In it's place is a little ole' preservation society, dedicated to all things wierwille and maintianing how we did things in the past. It's on life support for sure but will remain in some form into the foreseeable future.

I'm sure that as long as there are some good hearted and stubborn folks who buy the Wierwille myth there will be a preservation society of sorts.

But in the case of The Way itself becoming a preservation society of sorts it seems certain that those top dogs will just have a paper thin venere of good intentions in place at best. IMO it is more like a "sell them, abuse them, and use them up society.

I feel compassion for the good hearted ones and am expecting the worst consequences for the corrupt ones.

But IMO all the good hearted people in the world can't change what The Way International really is anymore. Any effort now is a waste of their time.

Not an entirely easy subject for me yet either. Just last night I was considering, I'm a PFAL grad and have no other biblical teaching in my life since Lutheran Confirmation sessions as a teen.

I considered this in light of my virtually wholesale presentation of The Way International in my "Post Mortem of The Way International" thread as a diseased body both dead and on the verge of death, followed shortly by a burning up of the diseased remains, of course.

Last night I was considering that I am a PFAL grad, so what about me?

To the best of my understanding here it is in hopefully meaningful little blurbs:

I did learn Bible in The Way International.

I didn't get adequate Christain counseling for my own horny young man issues, but I never took a married woman, abused my position of authority(perhaps because I did not have one.), and never ceased to feel somewhat guilty of my youthful indescretions which for the record weren't numerous or had abusive intentions.

I didn't get, in hindsight, any worthwhile guidance concerning making my life either useful or productive in The Way, just encouraged to send my life down the deliberately servile and fruitless TWI path of service.

I did get involved in a splinter group in Minnesota after Martindale's call for loyalty letters because our limb leader left and most people left the Way.

I thought it was a good thing to get a second chance at trying to be a successful believer again (yes, there were guilt issues involved) but turned out to only have been supporting a sociopatic and insane man who took my unwillingness to give up this time as an opprtunity to slowly destroy both my life and my family behind my back while I was attempting to confront biblical mistakes that went from bad to really crazy under Victor Barnard's control.

Came to GSC a wrecked man and found out that it wasn't just Barnard that was crazy, but that The Way International was bad, bad, and worse from the begining. And virtually every single thing that I heard about The Way here fit virtually exactly the same disease that I saw up close and personal in River Road Fellowship.

As for myself, my conscience is clear but I also know I'm not the final judge of me, and The Way is obviously flawed and disease ridden to me. But funny enough (or maybe not) I'm still thankful for being taught some bible. And the doctrine was much more flawed than I ever knew, probably still don't.

It's just that IMO what Wierwille was and what us Wayfers thought he was was, was a lie. A convincing public lie carried out through unwitting and good hearted people unto this day.

Not an entirely easy subject for me yet either. Just last night I was considering, I'm a PFAL grad and have no other biblical teaching in my life since Lutheran Confirmation sessions as a teen.

I considered this in light of my virtually wholesale presentation of The Way International in my "Post Mortem of The Way International" thread as a diseased body both dead and on the verge of death, followed shortly by a burning up of the diseased remains, of course.

Last night I was considering that I am a PFAL grad, so what about me?

To the best of my understanding here it is in hopefully meaningful little blurbs:

I did learn Bible in The Way International.

I didn't get adequate Christain counseling for my own horny young man issues, but I never took a married woman, abused my position of authority(perhaps because I did not have one.), and never ceased to feel somewhat guilty of my youthful indescretions which for the record weren't numerous or had abusive intentions.

I didn't get, in hindsight, any worthwhile guidance concerning making my life either useful or productive in The Way, just encouraged to send my life down the deliberately servile and fruitless TWI path of service.

I did get involved in a splinter group in Minnesota after Martindale's call for loyalty letters because our limb leader left and most people left the Way.

I thought it was a good thing to get a second chance at trying to be a successful believer again (yes, there were guilt issues involved) but turned out to only have been supporting a sociopatic and insane man who took my unwillingness to give up this time as an opprtunity to slowly destroy both my life and my family behind my back while I was attempting to confront biblical mistakes that went from bad to really crazy under Victor Barnard's control.

Came to GSC a wrecked man and found out that it wasn't just Barnard that was crazy, but that The Way International was bad, bad, and worse from the begining. And virtually every single thing that I heard about The Way here fit virtually exactly the same disease that I saw up close and personal in River Road Fellowship.

As for myself, my conscience is clear but I also know I'm not the final judge of me, and The Way is obviously flawed and disease ridden to me. But funny enough (or maybe not) I'm still thankful for being taught some bible. And the doctrine was much more flawed than I ever knew, probably still don't.

It's just that IMO what Wierwille was and what us Wayfers thought he was was, was a lie. A convincing public lie carried out through unwitting and good hearted people unto this day.

I'll look forward to it then. :)

But personally, I don't think you are or have been any weaker or stupider than any of the rest of us. Comparring just to myself, I don't think it's possible. :o

Preservation society comes to mind.

What do you mean Oldskool?

Over the past year, I have been thinking of a certain pretty woman I know as either a devil or an angel, depending on my mood. I can't decide which. (I believe that's a song, "Devil or Angel".)

"Depending on my mood"..... That struck me as funny right now Soul Searcher because I do that sometimes too.

Like my mood has any real effect on what someone is or isn't. hehehe

I think people are generally capable of doing and/or being good, bad, or both. The extent of either will vary widely and uniquely with all of us.

But even if I risk a joke about it all, I have been on the uuuugly side of being labled and wouldn't wish that kind of false label and the consequences on an enemy.

On the other hand, I do believe that some people are set on doing evil and may deserve it if someone refers to them as a "devil." But I' guess I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt until their own actions erase my unceratainty, y'know?

I suppose you are right Waysider.

Those darn weeds are persistent and tough.

Not to get too doctrinal, but maybe I can safely say that it seems the weeds and the crops need to keep going on all intermixed for some time yet.

And even more important to me, I don't feel I have the right to pretend I can always tell the difference, but I may choose to call them as I see it sometimes.

I guess you put me in my place Jeff...well done!

No putting you in any place you don't want to go is intended Geisha, really.

But after reading how "we are blaming God for all the evil in the world..." I felt it necessary to point out that it is not my intent to do so.

I think that in The Way we were too often "handled" by leadership whose intentions really were to "put us in our place" and I don't like it either.

But here I don't see why me clarifying my intentions need to be considered as such to you.

Interesting thought...

Like what?

Are you thinking, like, certain women, maybe? Certain music? Certain substances?

Yeah, the light part of my post was intended as a toungue-in-cheek reference to a pretty women, but even as I said it I was certain that many women would rightly say the very same thing about certain guys.

I think that biblically there are many references to things that seem attractive to us but are no good for us Soul Searcher, and in all seriousness I think it goes far beyond my questionable attempt at a lighter moment as to it being a worthy consideration.

Since we are blaming God for all the evil in the world...it only seems fitting we then credit and praise Him for all the beauty and good....

WE...Really Geisha?

I'm thinking about some hard questions asked by someone who seems very sincere in his/her beliefs.

And whether or not anything changes for Composer I don't mind the consideration and I am not blaming God, but do acknowledge that God is aware of each and every bit of the evil in the world. I believe in the plan I read about too, it's just that it is not a clear picture either, you know.

But on a lighter note, as a guy I have to say that not all that is beautiful is of God either..... :B)