JeffSjo

Thanks DontWorryBeHappy, am I a geasespotter too?

Good morning Sunnyfla, I've been thinking about you since I read your post yesterday. I'd really like to help. In terms of the doctrine taught by TWI, I have to hold it because in all honesty it's what I believe to be true, even though I've had to change a few things to line up with my further considerations. Holding these beliefs among denominational Christianity isn't easy. One thing I do is look at the lack of confrontation by Jesus Christ Himself when the jews that surrounded him tended to either believe in the resurrection or not. Some of us think it's clear that the dead are dead until the resurrection and then go to heaven. Some of us think people go to heaven right right away. It looks to me that the situation today is about the same as the first century. THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF DID NOT ALLOW HIS LIFE TO BE WASTED BY ALWAYS ARGUING WITH EITHER SIDE. Having recently been to my Grandfather's funeral I decided to not argue with the family about where grandpa was, it seemed unprofitable and harmful. Even with our different beliefs I can agree with them that after death the Lord will judge us like Paul plainly stated. I do not need to let it go to a bad place. And besides, they all know what I believe to some extent. Even with the many people who chose not to discuss it with me in these parts I have no desire to beat anyone up. It's just that they've generally chosen or been led to not discuss it with me, their ministers found that they generally don't want to deal with the things that I must say. I use "must say" because I'm talking about sharing what I believe honestly, not as in boasting of being correct. No matter where your considerations lead you Sunnyfla, I wish you the best. If you end up believing what I believe it will be more difficult for you I'm sure. (added in editing) Just a little question Cman, how do you handle Acts 1:11 which mentions Jesus ... come in like manner...?

I like you Rascal :)

Hi Sunnyfla, I believe that in general TWI was correct, the dead are dead until they're made alive. I won't bore you with a huge list of scriptures because I'm thinking you probably know them already. I do believe that an over emphasis on the dispensationalism caused a mistake though. I now believe that the gathering together and the resurrection are the same event, not just similar. In Ephesians it says that there is one hope (as opposed to two). It also says that the gentiles were brought into the covenant of promises, and they already existed. And if you read Ephesians carefully I think you may agree that with so many promises already given to Israel the only thing that was kept secret since the world began was that the gentiles were to made partakers of the same body. I know the ramifications of this are huge. Feel free to take it as far as you care to. I'm always happy to rethink things too, and I never mind discussing things.

I'm just bringing this to the front in case anyone has anything to share on this topic. I hope none of you mind.

Dear Excathedra, Logical I think, you're intending to pick the winning side. Dear DontWorryBeHappy, I'm looking forward to WTH taking up the discussion that you've invited WTH to have with you too. :)

At his funeral we sang "How Great Thou Art", " What a Freind We Have in Jesus", and Then Towards the end of the service " He Hideth My Soul". In the last song, it wasn't until the point where we sang the forth verse that starts out "When clothed with His brightness transported I rise To meet him in clouds of the sky" that I stared to feel a little better. I could have sworn it made the minister that ran the service a little red-faced, but I'm not in the mood to consider family politics and doctrine too much right now. I just want people to be blessed, and I don't want to start a fight on the heals of Grandpa's passing. His memory and simple caring for my family seems to deserve better.

Thanks T-Bone and so far so good. When I refer to the best of TWI and the best Of PFAL and the best of Dr. Wierwille its usually refering to what they said and taught about critical thinking in terms of proving things. These things I am bound to be thankful for no matter how badly they were botched as things developed in TWI. I do not let the mistakes erase what stands the test of time for me. When I hear people who were hurt very badly or know people who were hurt very badly I listen with compassion and just want them to be settled. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with when in compassion you feel someone's pain. I believe that evil things have been being done in the Lord's name since the first century and before. It's not hard to make a list either. A lot of it was much worse that TWI. Thousands of people have been LITERALLY tortured and killed in his name "supposedly in his name that is." When I believe that the watchmen didn't get the job done and then here Don'tWorreyBeHappy share it gives me pause to reconsider that opinion. I believe God himself allways gives his people chances to turn and of course the love of God was working even though things went bad. When I here people share that the rules have changed and that the focus on sin is wrong, or that remembering sin proves bitterness i think of many scriptures in the epistles that plainly make the case for the consequences of sin on a ministry or anyone else. John said he'd remember Diotrephes words and actions for instance. With all the sins written of in the book of acts for our learning nearly 2000 years ago, why would anyone put on blinders today, I mean come on, Simon the sorcerer, Annanias and Saphira, Herod not giving God the Glory, etc. etc. GRACE AND MERCEY DO NOT REPLACE TRUTH AND HONESTY. In the big picture they go together. Mercy requires sin first, but then so does judgement. It's God's decision. In general I desire mercy when I sin, but it's God's call. For some things Paul warns the Lord will simply AVENGE, this thought scares me. He's a lot lot lot bigger than any of us, even if in his Grace he's willing to call us bretheren. If you want to talk about grace and mercy covering it because the rules have changed then you must line it up with the scriptures concerning judgement in the very same epistles written during the time when you claim the rules have changed in order for me to give you any credibility at all. (addeed in editing) Just another little point here. Since so many evil things have been done in His name throughout history I must conclude that these things need to happen for the scriptures to be true. HE'LL make it o.k. in the end, just like the scriptures have fortold too.

Dear Rascal, I really do have to go, but maybe there'd be some comfort for us both if we'd agree together that the Lord will someday make the hidden things plain to see. By hidden things I mean what really went on inside peoples' hearts.

Dear Rascal, O.K., I get it now about the brothers and sisters, thanks for clearing that up for me. When I was in the middle of a different type of perverting the truth in that small splinter group I talk about, It was everything I could handle to fight for the scriptures to be applied to the situations that came up in the span of years. The only thing I can say for sure about being correct is that my conscience is clear, I dare not boast about being right, but I always am willing to share so others can judge for themselves. Coming from my own experience, I have no trouble imagining TWI starting well and then over time being corrupt. Between sin being something that anyone can fall into and biblical cowardace, it eventually becomes actively seeking to destroy those who speak from a good heart and a clear conscience. Covering up the sin mixed with becoming experts at the art of managing public perception can fool anyone. In my life it is very clear that it started good and became bad. (IN the splinter group) I have no problem thinking the same of TWI, but I'm still looking at it. No Rascal, I'm not mad at you. I'm concerned about the P----d at God part of what's on your heart, but I"ve been there too. (added in editing) Gotta go now, but before I go for the day just a couple of things. In my little splinter group I was around from the beginning. In TWI I was not around from the beginning. It could be a mistake to assume it went down the same way without all the facts. But it's not hard for me to think it could have went down the same way, starting good and turning bad. There is an awful lot of that in the bible. It's a common pattern for men. Right now What I think is that it started good and turned out bad.

Dear T-Bone, If God gave Dr. Wierwille what amounts to a conditional promise, then God will judge. I know throughout the years that it's been misused, but promising to teach him the Word like it hasn't been known since the 1st century.... if he'd teach..... is a conditional promise. It never meant that everything would always be good, nor did I ever hear it presented that PFAL was the fulfillment of that promise. I just always assumed it was understood that it was to be a work in progress and that only God would be in charge of its success or failure. I believe all of you that in the later years it was missrepresented, missused, and missapplied to everyone's harm. I know a lot of you disagree, but even with the terrible results, it wouldn't be the first time people have completely botched a conditional promise from God. If God didn't give Dr. Wiewille the conditional promise, then there is still so much good in the doctrine for me that I have to give it some credit for the simple fact that there were things taught that I believe to be true. I REALLY DON'T JUDGE IT ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN ANY OTHER TIME SOMEONE SAYS GOD TALKED TO THEM. (ADDED IN EDITING) I haven't read that T-Bone, I'll go do that now. P.S. O.K., I've started reading, but it's a lot. I'll keep going. It'll take more time than I have today.

Yeah, I get it Rascal. You might think that I'm nucking futs, but I believe God called me to a ministry that did everything in their ability to break my life and my heart. At least I'm consistent. I read the bible and I see a lot of evil things done, and a lot of evil things prophecied about by the apostle Paul as long ago as the first century in the epistles too. If I didn't believe that the Lord would bring true justice some day, I'd already be dead I think. (Added in editing) I'm so sorry about your family Rascal, I can't say it enough it seems. Stealing, killing, and destroying is easy to read and real hard to see up close. In everything you share about it seems that there is leadership that is accountable. I believe the Lord will hold them accountable. Paul seemed to think it was a big deal that there was no blood on his hands, it won't go well for those with blood on their hands. It won't matter how well they cover it up right now either; the Lord will uncover, expose and hold accountable.

Dear Rascal, You're talking about hard thing,I know. God's never accountable for sin, but it's something that we all share in to some extent. I'm just really sorry for the things that you've seen.

Hi eveyone. Dear Rascal, I'm just going to listen for now. Everyone seems to be playing nice. (added in editing) O.K. everyone, I can't stay out of it completely. Right now I can't think of a better biblical comparison than Solomon. God Talked to Solomon, Solomon later did scummy things. I believe that it's the truth that no scummy works are of the spirit, and that no man "doing" the scummy things can be said to be of the spirit, even if he does have the spirit. I'm not quick to judge any man in "entirety" because only the Lord knows the whole picture. But scummy works are fleshy and nasty, not spiritual. In Romans ch7 it spells out the conflict between flesh and spirit that the apostle Paul himself dealt with, he did it in first person, no finger pointing in that. I can relate, if by grace I'm capable of good, I'm also capable of sin. If the Lord hadn't promised to burn up the ugly, none of us would be left with anything. our own faults would pollute everything. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU'RE ALL MAKING GOOD POINTS, I'M STILL CONSIDERING THE MATTER.

This last sunday we had my grandfather's funeral. I'm bound to be thankful for him for the rest of my life. I learned great things from him and I have no doubt that I would be a better man if I could only have spent more time with him. When we were in momentous and had been exposed to the false prophet movement I read him one of the prophecies that were given to my wife and I. With peace and confidence he said "Jeff, you've gotta watch out for prophecies, they don't all come from God." After considering the matter I confronted the one who was in charge in our little group about momentous doctrine and it led to us leaving momentus fellowship. The group that I was with never even said thak you, (spiritual dishonesty) and my ex-wife can still be mad till today when the heart for the scripture that I first learned from my grandfather is rememberred by me as often having a part in correcting the spiritually dishonest man that I'm refering to. Many times I brought up some doctrine I believed and grandpa looked at the Word and simply said, "Jeff, that's not what it says." He did it with love and authority and in truth was the only man living that I think of and can then comprehend the fear of the Lord. I'm gonna mis him a lot. (sob)

Hi Rascal, It seems to me that this might be a better thread to talk about the things that I want to discuss with you. Whether or not a man or woman has the spirit of God is a completely different question than do they walk in it. I was taught that a person with the spirit can commit the same sins as one without the spirit.

Hi Rascal, Just wondering how you would characterise the usage of "fruit." I've told you that I consider myself to be fruit. Is that how you mean it? Or are you talking about the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace..... (added in editing) I would like to continue this with you rascal, I just want to be sure that we're trying to discuss the same thing. Just so you know, I share computer time and I'm never sure how much time I may have.

GOD BLESS YOU DOT, Eventually, we pass through the valleys in life. ( a ref. to Ps 23)

I hope you're doing o.k. Oldiesman. That answer seems much better. (Added in editing) If it's true, it's bigger than me and I don't have to defend it, I just stand. Grace and mercy required.

Hi Oldiesman, Patience, gentleness, peace. These things will help. I've been very honest with Rascal that I remember the Grace of God in TWI. I don't condemn her either and I've plainly stated why in the "offense" thread. After all, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Hi WhatTheHey, Thanks for clarifying your intentions with the explanations. When I make biblical references I'm seeking to apply the scripture to more current events that fit the overall topic of this website. I freely ask for everyones patience with that and hope that everyone can consider the underlying principles if they're not with me in regards to reasoning out of the scripture. I have a hard time comparing the movie to TWI because for me the movie's fiction, but TWI is fact. At one point, people called Barnabus Jupiter, and they called Paul Mercury. They did not stand for it and before long they were as hated as they had been so recently liked. Acts 14:11-19 Not too long ago I was with a small splinter group that called one man "The Word in the Flesh" In both cases people made men idols. In one case was it stopped. Paul and Barnabus stopped it because the fear of the Lord made them wise. Paul shared his weakness with eveyone and desired everyone to know that the same Lord would judge him and them, and he never tried to raise himself over that in people's eyes. Neither did he let people put him on a pedastal. THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN p.s. People can get riled when you touch their idols no matter which ones they happen to be at the time.