JeffSjo

Hi ChasUFarley, I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about "why" I got involved in a ministry that was about to collapse too. I'm still working it out. It seems there's a fine line between talking about someone's sin and it being a personal attack. I'm just trying to tell the difference one case at a time. One thing I've decided right now is that helping the wounded (so to speak) is more important than protecting a reputation. I may not always get it right, but I am willing to say, "WATCH ME."

POND, Saying "Posters use ananymous names and spew out all kind of accusation because they cannot be held accountable." is to many peoples minds here the very definition of legal style bullying. It would take someone of great courage to talk about being abused here, even without your thinly veiled attempts to stop it, or at least side track it. I'm wondering pond, do you think my life isn't where my mouth is? My avatar is part of my name. Your's is some kind of guessing game b.s. Go ahead pond, who are you. I'll more than match anything you can come up with if you think you can be more accountable than me. I think you're the kind of bully that's just a coward at heart. GO AHEAD PUNK, MAKE MY DAY!!!!!!

This place isn't a legal court at all. No one needs to meet a legal standard. If someone is falsly accused, let them complain about it, then I'll help them too. I don't know who you guys are trying to help, but it doesn't seem to be any one here. ANYBODY PLEASE, CAN THIS THREAD BE EDITED AND POSTED TO KEEP WITH THE INTENT. P.s. Hi rascal, sorry, did I by any chance interupt you with a similar sentiment?

I have a request PAW or somebody, would it be possible to set up a thread that had everything on this thread except the deliberate attempts of sidetracking about legal mumbo-jumbo? Could we make it a protected thread about overcoming abuse and/ or offense. Could we view the content without the pages long distractions that many of us feel are deliberate and willful? I told bumpster to go, but only after bumpster asked. Bumpster, my avatar is not about cutting hair, and I don't fret about imaginary tigers that are really just full of stuffing.

I am almost always amazed when I remember that we were taught so many great keys to prove doctrines and then weren't allowed to use them. At least that's how some remember it and I tend to believe them when they say they weren't allowed to test the doctrines. My life has seen plety of those battles. Well: there's still today!

I'm an old big-ten guy so it's hard to like USC. They're a good team though. Had to root for the illini. Well, they probably will be better next year anyway. I'm fairly certain they'll be better than the Gophers.

A wiccan may well say "rule of three." Jesus Christ said "Why look at the speck in your brother's eye, and not think about the beam in your own eye." Mt 7:3 When it comes to certain things I can only think and talk in Biblical terms, but like the wiccan saying I have to acknowledge the truth in it even though I'm quite certain I'll never be wiccan. Elitism and seperation seem inevitable for the time being. The best that I know to do is to stay meek and yet not budge one bit when it comes to certain things. Even if I manage not to offend I'm certain that the fact that I won't budge on certain things is enough for others to separate themselves from me. Often I've looked down on somebody only to regret it later.

Hi Dot, I've been thinking some more about what I shared about looking at the practical side of Ephesians and it's still working for me. I'd like to add, look at the doctrinal side too. After all, isn't doctrine part of what's supposed to be covering our head? (As far as the armor goes that is.) Back to the practical side: things to fight for. Eph4:3 The unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. Eph4:12 The work of the ministry Eph4:15 Speaking the truth in love Eph4:23 Being renewed in the spirit of our mind. Eph4:32 Be ye kind one to another....... Eph5:2 Walk in love Eph5:8 walk as children of light Eph5:11 reprove darkness Eph5:16 redeeming the time Eph5:18 filled by the spirit family relation, love, employment,etc. There is plenty of things to do and fight for in the practical section. That list isn't exhaustive, just the result of a quick looksee. I'd tend to agree with you Dot that the entire scripture is suppose to be our teacher, but it might be a better place to start for you if you simply considered practicing the practical section of this epistle. Not that you don't walk already, but just that the focus of imediate context is often the most fruitful place to start with in terms of understanding the practical application of any analogy including the armor of Eph 6. Right now I'm thinking this approach would be more fruitful than a simple tweaking of the analogy ie. military to athletic. Without the discipline of the practical side it can easily be only head knowledge. God Bless Dot.

Hi CMAN, That poetry's quite pretty. I'll take it to mean that the God behind the book of Hebrews is more important than pinpointing the author. All the more reason to be able to discuss the possible authors without rancor if we choose to discuss it.

I've always enjoyed "Calvin and Hobbes", that I understand. I'm still watching you though Bumpster. What is this "I've been deleted?"

Probably not Bumpster, but then at least it would be my choice then. Why don't you make another place to play for you guys!? As it is, I choose not to put anyone on "ignore" because I don't want my computer to think for me. Even if I find someone to be tediously stubborn; unwilling and/or unable to come to terms with a very serious topic like you are Bumpster I still read them. Who knows if there could be more to them than it seems? I choose patience, I choose to keep my eyes and ears open, I choose to take it all in, and I choose to keep thinking after taking it all in. This is the exact same way I choose to think of TWI. I remember good people from my days with TWI. Others , it seems were abused in one fashon or another and as I've plainly said, I get a little steamed about it at times. So what, my emotional response to abuse is about the same as always. Even as I get steamed I remember to not let my emotions take me to a place where I become as bad as the abusers. A lot of it is about intentions. As a PFAL grad, I choose to not put blinders on myself by false assumptions that sins were covered by the Lord. If they were then the ones who were abusive would know that when they've been forgiven it's their Christian duty to bind the wounded at the expense of their reputations if necessary. Maybe the ones that think they are big names just need to pull their heads out of their own reputations. (I deliberately intend the double meaning there.) As a PFAL grad I choose to hold on to what I remember as the Grace of God. Rest assured no one ever programed me to do that, I CHOOSE TO. In the mean time I refuse to put down people who share the abuse they've suffered through; like Bumpster,Pond,& White Dove have done to several people here. Remember you guys that I choose not to judge your intentions, but I continue to despise what you've done. As a PFAL grad I choose to take any heat that comes my way from the "wounded and hurting" because of the pain they've suffered. I don't blame them. I just patiently endure their well earned venting because if it's in truth the Grace of God that I remember then God will strengthen me and allow them to heal. The worst thing that can happen is that my own bubble is burst, but if God put the bubble there then he won't let it burst. I won't make things worse by attacking people who've been abused because of some loveless, misguided, & twisted opinion of what Love or Loyalty is all about. This is one thing I'll share that I do judge. Any attempt to live in the love of God that puts people down who've been wounded is destructive, deluded, cruel, and must be stopped.

I just wanted this up front so Nero could find it.

Hi Rachel, I don't have any verses to share with you, besides you seem to have that covered. Let me share some of what I think of since my time with TWI with you and I'd be happy to hear back from you. One thing that I never heard was Dr. say that he had it all figured out. What I do remember him saying was "We're just scratching the "H" in Holy Bible." I never figured out why anyone would act like we had it all figured out when Dr. himself wanted us to prove the doctrine. One thing that's changed for me is that the epistles are no longer "over" the gospels or Revelation in terms of my understanding. Many things that I was taught were similar I now believe to be the same. I hope we can develope some good dialogue.

Hi Dot and God Bless, Maybe this will help. When I look at this section it starts with the word "Finally" indicating that it's a finishing summation of sorts. Try looking specifically at chapters 4,5, the preceding stuff in the epistle on practical application. It may help you get more grounded in an otherwise heady analogy with no practical side to it. It seems to me that you want the practice of the armor, then try the practical section of the epistle. God Bless Dot.

I've taken a break, but I'm not cooled off. Thaks a lot you guys for keeping your secrets. (sarcasm) Meanwhile all of us walking wounded don't have any accountability from the ones who spitefully abused folks. And the Grace of God that is the foundation for PFAL gets smeared because no one owns up to what everyone already knows. And when I come here and hear people get called whiners and complainers because they maybe just need to talk about it all I get pretty steamed. Go ahead you jerks, keep calling the wounded weak. Keep calling the honest dishonest. Keep calling into question what everyone already knows. Your own credibility is the biggest casualty.

You guys want to know why PFAL doesn't have any street cred these days? It's because we all know that something in the pot was rotten, nasty, or vile and nobody is being accountable. The truth will help people, and those of you who mistakenly think "lockbox" serves God anymore will have to deal with it. Does anyone here who believes in Jesus Christ think he won't break this "lockbox" when he judges? I know that it says he will bring the hidden things to light. If some of you think in terms of karma or whatever I hope you will bear with me. I could go on and on, but I'm going to go cool off for a little.

I want to share some thoughts on "lockbox" At it's best I believe that it was a practical solution designed to give fallible human beings that happened to be leadership some personal space to deal with their faults. But as is often the case with us people, something good can be twisted around and turned to nasty and dishonest effect. I believe that the practical effect of "lockbox" later was to hide the deliberate and nasty things that went on behind the scenes. What was designed to lovingly cover human flaws was later used to perpetuate human abuse.

Hi again White Dove. I really enjoy our conversations. RASCAL, Thanks for your courage to share so much of your life with us. As this thread is; not to mention this web site; is to help people overcome past abuse I can't imagine a more couragious and selfless act than to share your life in the face of this type of resistance. As to those that don't like your sharings, I'm just glad that their words are on record here. As to their motives, I have to hold back because what I said earlier about judging peoples motives applies here. But I trust what I think of their actions is clear too!

Hi T-Bone, I like this thread. Your sentiments bring to mind another scripture for me. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge."

I think the derailment was funny. I'm going to try to bring it back. It's too bad some ministries can't behave better than petty restaurant owners who run to their lawyers.

Hi excathedra, You mentioned to me once that you appreciated my postings, Thanks by the way. If you aren't engaged in what's happening here and need to move on I'll regret not getting to know you better. Looks like you've been around for quite a while, it's easy for me to imagine how much you have to give.

Hi Rascal, it's always a pleasure, There is a lot of merit to what you're saying. I wish that it hadn't gone so badly for so many. I think that the ministry became predatory is a matter of record now for me, I don't consider it simple opinion anymore. I think an error people are prone to make is to judge someones "intentions" instead of actions. I believe that according to scripture judging someone's heart will ultimately be the Lord's doing, and not mine. That being said, I'm pretty p.o.'d about the train wreck.

Hi guys, (It sounds like Patrick is writing but I'm not sure.) Would you be willing to explain what metaphysics is for me?

Hi Dot and God Bless, This is a good goal for me that I like to keep in mind. Paul lived in a place where he wasn't just shadow boxing, his words had a very real impact. Precise and powerful I think.