So_crates

50 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

 

 

Well it happened again.  I'm reading along in the Word and another "budget" verse jumped off the page and into my word processor, and is now posted.

Jude 9 says:
“But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’ ”

Both angels have a finite budget to fight with. It was a struggle when they clashed, and not an overwhelming  wipeout, with Michael beating the devil.

All the while, God has the infinite power.

This is very similar to Daniel 9 and that budgeted clash.

 

How does an angel disputing the devil prove God has a budget?

Maybe it's a universal rule that like battles like.

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How does God's budget fit into that hedge of protection that's supposed to be around each of us?

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Note: Mike says he's not married to the concept, yet he still insist on using "budget" even though he knows it causes confusion.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Please tell Socrates that I am in a meeting

This presupposes I want to meet with you.

Have your answering machine call my answering machine. They'll do lunch.

16 minutes ago, Rocky said:

To each question, I would reply, ye shall know them by their fruit.

To which I'd firmly agree.

18 hours ago, penworks said:

Sounds like a question for Walt*r Cumm*ns, the one VPW put in charge of "biblical research."

17 hours ago, Rocky said:

LOL! As if anyone could overcome Victor Wierwille's domineering malignant narcissism.  

The questions are rhetorical.

Part of what I was attempting to do was getting at another presupposition: The Way has the Word of God.

Does The Way have the Word of God?

How do we know?

If The Way has the Word of God, why don't people act like it or follow it's dictates?

This, of course, goes along with the other two presuppositions which were never answered:

Was Saint Vic a MOG?

How do we know?

Did Saint Vic work for God?

Again, how do we know?

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

 Morning. I think our freewill is influenced by other entities or events, etc. I dont feel that submission makes free will any less free.

I agree. Just because something influences us doesn't prove a lack of free will. We still have a choice of whether we bend with the influence or not.

But, you ask, what if we're unaware of the influence. Well, that doesn't reflect on free will. It reflects on the influencer. Your ability to act or not act remains, it's just been bypassed.

Another reason educating yourself is so important.

Traveling across Ohio, Indiana, Illinois with my parents in my younger days, we would often stop at a rest stop that had sulfur saturated water. The main characteristic of it being what was described as a "rotten egg smell*. Luckily, if you held your nose, it tasted like normal water.

Also, as an aside, that's how Fabreze works': it prevents the sulfur atoms from binding to the molecule. So I guess every obnoxious odor has a sulfur atom.

30 minutes ago, penworks said:

OMG. We in research were rolling our eyes, or rather puking behind the scenes because we knew the "research" behind it was bogus. So did WJC, but he didn't confront LCM about it, just let it go ...

Odd, isn't it? I would think if the BOD and the ministry executives truely believed the ministry had the Word of God, they would fight tooth and nail to keep it pure. Instead, they bite their tongues and go along with it.

Also, where were the gift ministries? Aren't the prophets tasked with the job of keeping the MOG on the straight and narrow?

Going deeper into Athletes of the Spirit lore, here is the scene from Stayin' Alive the the ministry production pays homage to:

On YouTube, no less...

11 hours ago, Mike said:

VPW explains in a couple of places that what he believed God was teaching  him to teach to others was superior to what the scholarly world had found with 5-senses methods and discovered manuscripts.

When he became convinced that God was teaching him something, no one  could talk him out of it. Once he taught it to us he had finished clearing it with God.

His behavior in honoring his communication with God on this baffled ALL OF US, including me.  I have reported on this how I heard Research Dept people complaining about VPW's odd attitudes toward research. This was in 1978, possibly before Charlene noticed the anomalies here.

I've also reported here on the 3 SNS tapes where VPW indicated he respected some manuscripts that were NOT YET FOUND over the existing manuscripts. I often pulled my hair out over that in the 1980s.

It wasn't until I actually FIRST took the 1942 promise seriously in 1998 that all of these odd attitudes of VPW here started to fit perfectly for me.

Saint Vic stated in the class that when God gives revelation it's complete.  So if God told Saint Vic there were manuscripts we haven't discovered, why didn't he also tell Saint Vic were they were?

i think if God was going to say anything to Saint Vic, it would be: "What are you doing to my daughters?"

7 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

 

 

What an incredibly undignified, scientifically imprecise and mathematically inexact thing to say!

An ad homInem intended to distract from the point made.

 

47 minutes ago, Mike said:

Dang!  Had I remembered to wear my tuxedo, you'd be in checkmate.

Playing pigeon chess are you Mike?

Don’t play chess with a pigeon. It’ll just knock over the pieces and then strut around like it won the game.

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

But if you look at 1 John (ashamed) and 1 Cor 3 (suffer loss) you will see that even for us, the loss of rewards can be a very devastating thing.  The Word compares it to having your house burn to the ground.

We are in a competition FOR KEEPS, and there is no blowing it off.

Yah, you can see how concerned Saint Vic was at losing his rewards...

13 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

“God is doing His best..”

Wow. Just. Wow.

“God is trying, he really is, he is really trying his best, and that’s what he’s doing, his best. But there’s a budget, you see, and double doors and devils! Lots of hindrance for God, but trust he is doing his best!”

All of these imaginative, conceptual constructs projected onto and for God!!

“I won’t let go…I will hold on tight to this image… I will clutch to this beleeef imagined… I will belleeeve my way into a known concept of God! it’s just got to fit! By Snowball Pete I will MAKE it fit!”

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

It sounds to me like you, as a victim, are totally unaware of the spiritual war going on all around us. 

Looks to me more like he recognizes Saint Vic's BS when he sees it.

8 minutes ago, Mike said:

At the beginning of this thread and several times through it I have said that I have NOT YET gone through the PFAL steps for this one idea of budget and double doors.

See? Still using words that you know obscure the theory.

If you want a better way to express the theory, maybe you should strart there.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

No.  You got that condescending Way Brain Condemnation working on overtime.

Projecting, aren't we?

Who of the two of us has been repeatedly called out for condescending? And who of the two of us made the claim that he was lovingly condescending like God? And who of the two of us is still in the Way?

Condemnation? From you?!?!

How do you get your head through doorways? You're not important enough to make me feel condemnation.

I rest my case.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Give it a rest.

Good idea. Why don't you give YOUR condescending attitude a rest?

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Let me explain what you missed with your rotten attitudes blinding you.

As I've proven above, it's YOU with the rotten attitude. Hint: Look up the meaning of "thrashing".

5 hours ago, Mike said:

(1) I had this odd and cumbersome idea as to how a bunch of these odd verses fit together.

(2) I thrashingly try to express this odd idea, that no one yet knows is true or not because of its oddness and novelty and difficulty for me to express.  Bu

(3) But I try anyway and make a little progress, and take special note of how other posters reacted to it.  If they reacted WRONGLY, that is I could see they didn't get what I had tried to say, then I get to learn how to express this odd idea better the next time.

Yah, sure. That's why your still using "budget" and "double doors" even though you know they clouds the issue, right? You've been harping on this for five months, ample time to find other words, if your intention was to find a better way to express your idea.

Mike, language can either illuminate or obscure an idea. You seem to want to obscure more than illuminate.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

*/*/*/*

It's not like I am saying "My odd idea is correct and you all got it wrong."

What I am saying is "My odd idea did not get processed properly by you and/or me, so I will try to express it again.

So the "wrongness" I was talking about is the communication of this odd idea from me to you.  From your feedback I can see I still need to try better explanations, as I examine your feedback on how this odd idea works.

I was NOT saying you all are wrong for not understanding me.

"Budget". "Double doors." Five months. 'Nuff said.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Please go back and re-read some of my recent posts with this better perspective in mind.

 

Please go back and read some of YOUR previous post with this better perspective in YOUR mind.

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What did he mean by the Word?

Well, my understanding was the bible. But, experience tells me the Word means his translation of what the bible says.

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

I am merely thrashing about an idea here. 
It's not like I bet my life on it.
There are just these odd verses, that seem to want an odd interpretation.

 

Just thrashing about an idea, huh?

8 hours ago, Mike said:

I'm also learning how to express this idea better and better, based on how people get it wrong

So in your mind everybody but you is wrong and you have to beat what is right into them.

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Yikes!

You are trying to crank logic WAY too early.

But...but...but...Saint Vic claimed the Word was logically logical.

1 minute ago, Mike said:

Sometimes...He barely eeks by.

And those that are documented are there for our learning.

Like I said, how can God claim we're more than conquerors, when he barely eeks by?

Can you say BS? I knew that you could.

31 minutes ago, Mike said:

God won, but just barely

God won, but just barely?!?!?

How can God claim we are more than conquerors, when he's winning, just barely?

God is an infinite being going against a finite one. There's no just barely to it. There's no just eeking by. God wins in a landslide.

To the "read only" audience: See? This is what PLAF teaches: God doesn't more than conquerors, he barely eeks by.

3 hours ago, Mike said:

You are trying to crank logic WAY too early.

So you're trying to tell me God is irrational.

So when Saint Vic claimed in the class something was logically logical he was BSing us, right?

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I'm trying to use actual scriptures as anchors for what I think. So, far this chapter 9 in Daniel is an obvious scene of a close struggle and God's intent delayed.  PERIOD

True to form, you refuse to answer the question presented. The chapter you use could have been mistranslated or added. It doesn't fit with what we know about God. Once again, how does God protect us by deferring to lesser beings? What has God to gain by deferring to lesser beings?

3 hours ago, Mike said:

Now how we interpret that has to fit with other scriptures that are similar. One is the flaming 2 edged sword that guards the tree of life...  another limitation, again to protect man.

Still doesn't answer how God protects us by deferring to lesser beings. (You also notice God placed the flaming sword?)

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I don't see any of these things as limiting God Himself. 

That's because you're so enamored with your theory you can't look at it objectively.

3 hours ago, Mike said:

It is limitations that God put on His major interventions in the senses world, and it seems (again from some scriptures) that God then can "legally" or "equitably" limit the major interventions on the world by the devil.

And, once again, what does God gain by limiting these interventions?

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I see these limitations as like PARTIAL INSULATION of the senses world from the devil, and in the way this insulation works, it limits God also.

Now why would God need to limit himself to partially insulate the senses world from the devil? The devil is already limited, as he is a created being. So God can limit the devil and still have unlimited power himself. He's God after all. He makes the rules.

3 hours ago, Mike said:

 

This whole thread is just me working a loose hunch, based on scriptural anchors.

I'm also learning how to express this idea better and better, based on how people get it wrong

So your presumption is you're right and everyone else is wrong. Real meek, Mike. You wonder why you don't get meekness? It's because you don't give meekness.

On 7/7/2023 at 9:23 AM, Mike said:

It suddenly occurred to me that in Daniel 9, the struggling GOOD ANGELS were God's budget. 

God limited Himself to these angels to get a job done, and it was a struggle that took time for them.  We know the angels are numbered, and therefore not infinite in that kind of power.

So, in  Daniel 9 we see God getting a job done within His budget, beating the devil's ability to work his budget.  But we do NOT see an overwhelming infinite force that QUICKLY wipes out the devil's resistance.

The numbered angels are God's budget.

 

(....I told you this idea comes and goes for decades with me.)

Or, to put it another way, what does God gain by deferring to a lesser power?

Put in Wayspeak: What profits God, an infinitely powerful being, by deferring his power to a finitely powerful being, angels?

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I was referring to how the Word says there are twice as many good angels as bad. That seems to say their number is finite.  It also seems that Daniel 9 is about an angelic visit.  I try to learn from it.

The sense that I see in this chapter is that God's infinite power was not used, and instead this angel, and how ever many other angels he had in his command, were taking a long time in answering Daniel's prayer because they were meeting opposing forces that hindered them, thus delaying them.

So I see in this chapter that God did not use His unlimited powers to answer Daniel's prayer, but instead He is limited Himself to the angels that eventually got the job done.  This is the idea I had in mind when I used the word "budget" for this thread. 

 

So it's your contention that God--a being of infinite power--turns to beings of finite power--angels--to get things done. And, as you've previously stated, God does this to protect us.

How does deferring to a lesser power protect us?

To put it in human terms, God has the drop on the devil, as he's packing heat. The devil pulls out a shiv and flashes it. God then tosses away his pistol and also protects us with a knife.

As if God couldn't protect all of us with a flick of his wrist if he chose to.

Why would God limit himself?

I, however, know why this conspiracy theory got started. Saint Vic was afraid he would be exposed as the faker he is, so he had to make up an excuse why all those followers weren't living the abundant life like he promised.

On 7/3/2023 at 12:36 PM, Mike said:

I chalk it up to just another way he was telling us that God was directly teaching him on how to fix the broken doctrine of churchianity

I would think that if God would teach Saint Vic anything, the first thing he would teach Saint Vic was to keep his pants zipped.

Just as I would think if God ever audibly spoke to Saint Vic God's first words would always be, "What are you doing to my daughters?"

5 hours ago, Mike said:

It also give me an inroad to help them with better classes in the future.

What makes you think they want to improve? They got your Franklin; they have no motive to improve.

They wouldn't listen to anyone in 1986, what would motivate them to listen to anyone now? The ministry has always been: we give the orders, it's your job to get with the program. And you think they want to improve?

Honestly, if one of us came to you and told you we want to help you teach the bible better in the future would you listen?