So_crates

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

VPW saw believers with need and not enough extra (abundance) to give to others.

VPW saw UNBELIEVERS without need and enough extra (abundance) to give to others.

He SAW ...

Since you can't see spiritual things, this must  tie back to material abundance.

12 minutes ago, Raf said:

Seeing as this is doctrinal, I'll step away from this tangent on this thread, with apologies. Thanks to all for entertaining my digression.

There's a little more to it Raf

Among the other questions I would have:

Who were the SITters?

How do we know they were actually SIT? How do we know they weren't fluent in the languages they spoke?

For something presented a canon, the whole incident is poorly documented.

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

Do you think Jesus was doing that in John 10:10 ?

What Jesus meant in John 10:10 is irrelevant; material abundance is what the ministry taught.

We're discussing what the ministry taught, not what the bible meant.

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

When you get tired and defeated trying to deal with my challenges you resort to attacking me as a liar.  I never said I was a professional coder, dancer, or comedian.  I said that I have some pretty extensive experience in those areas.

Are you a jealous one-trick-pony, yourself? 

Sheesh!  I have deep experience in a lot more than what you mentioned. 

 

Yah, your experience as a coder is so extensive you still haven't figure out how to break quotes.

Your experience as a comedian is so extensive your sense of humor leaks into your posts.

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

To adjust dimming memories is one use.

 

Odd, isn't it, how with 50 years of studying the class, we usually tell you what's in the class more than you tell us.

Memory dimmng a bit, Mike?

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

I am sure there were times when the ministry went into the error zone on hawking material abundance TV style, which is really greedy opulance, not simple abundance.  The TVT's got pretty loaded by that in the 80s.

But that is not what the class and the collaterals teach.

 

So you're trying to tell me Way Nash was just spreading TVTs when they had their employees work and live "at need" , right? I thought you said you worked in the AV department. And you didn't know this?

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

I am sure there were times when the ministry went into the error zone on hawking material abundance TV style, which is really greedy opulance, not simple abundance.  The TVT's got pretty loaded by that in the 80s.

But that is not what the class and the collaterals teach.

 

The point, which you insist on denying, is that they did teach it.

Also, how does this answer my "living at need" question?

13 minutes ago, Mike said:

You are already forgetting that abundance to Jesus and to Ohio farmers in the Sixties meant having their needs met and something left over to give away.  Just reminding.

God wants us to have both spiritual and material abundance.  Not greed, but more than we need is fine.

Here is everything on the red drapes from the film class:

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

Another promise in the Epistle of I John. Way in the back of your Bible. I John, the Epistle of I John, first-second--third John.

I John 5:14:
And this is the confidence [this is the confidence] that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, [if we ask any thing according to his will] he heareth us:

 

 

 Isn't that wonderful? If we have our need and our want parallel we ask anything according to His will; how can it be His Will if we don't know His Word? His Word is His Will that gets our need and our want parallel. If we know His Word we can parallel it off. And once we get our need and want parallel, whatsoever we ask, we get.

 

 

 Many years ago when I was first questing in the integrity and accuracy of God's Word and doing Biblical research, just starting in the field, there were some things in the Word of God that we believed and that we understood and were practicing in our prayer life. And we were really concerned about learning more about God's Word.

 

 

 We had a letter from one of our radio audience from Cincinnati. And this good lady stipulated in that letter stating the following: she said, "now on Thursday night when you have your prayer group meeting and you meet with your people; I'd like for you to pray for an apartment for me. Because I have to find this apartment and I would like for this apartment to be within walking distance, two or three blocks from where I am employed." And she said, "it has to be a furnished apartment because I do not have my own furniture," and she said, "while your praying for this apartment within this area of where I am gainfully employed will you please ask God that in this furnished apartment there will be red drapes on the living room windows."

 

 

My, oh my. That shook me. I thought to myself well good lord, if I'm going to pray for her for an apartment and she gets that apartment she ought to be thankful. What difference does if make if its got pink drapes or yellow drapes or orange drapes on the living room window? But she had stipulated in her letter please pray that there be red drapes on the window.

 

 

Well I don't know who did the believing, I helped in the praying but I want to tell you something that night spiritually I hadn't gone this far; I believed for the apartment this I could believe for, it was a need I understood this. So I believed that she'd have an apartment but I can't imagine and I know that I did not believe anything about drapes at all.

 

 

But we prayed that evening and within fifteen minutes of the time when we had prayed for this situation this lady in Cincinnati many, many, many miles away had a telephone call from an entire stranger who said to her "a friend of yours told me that you have need of an apartment, is this right?" And she said, "yes." And she said, "well where's it located?" He said, "well such and such a place." Within two blocks of where she was employed. So she said to him, "may I come and see it in the morning?" He said, "you certainly may."

 

 

They made an appointment, she went next morning and looked at this apartment. And when she walked into the living room what do you think the color of those drapes were on those living room windows? Green, oh no they weren't. They were fire engine red. That's right.

 

 

People, she must have had her need and her want parallel. Look at this. Alright, she rented a furnished apartment and it had to have drapes on the window, right? Does it make God any difference whether the drapes are green or red or pink? No, but she had a need, that need was that they might as well have red drapes on, that's what she wanted. She got her need and her want parallel. She not only got that apartment but she got the red drapes on the windows.

 

 

You talk about the accuracy of God's Word when He said He'll supply all of our need according to His riches in glory. Doesn't say He'll supply our greed but He'll supply our need according to His riches in glory. That's true. It's wonderful.

 

 

*/*/*

 

 

 

 

 

VPW didn't think God was that big, and he didn't think the lady had a real need.  But she knew, and she was specific, and got the red drapes.  Not a spectacular abundance like on TV, but nice.

 

 

 

 

 

And a material abundance which you keep denying the ministry taught.

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

It is understood that FIRST we are to build our heart's desires according to His Word and will.  If that is not understood, then we could have an idol as our heart's desire, and then wonder why God is not interested in helping us ruin ourselves.

The teaching John gives on this is:

^"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:  And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."  (1 John 5:14,15)

You mean like Saint Vic built his heart's desire according to the Word?

Saint Vic: Give me more money. Give me more women.

Is it any wonder the ministry is losing people? Saint Vic: You build your heart's desire according to God's Word; meanwhile I'll be building my heart's desire according to my word. My heart's desire? Money and women

43 minutes ago, Mike said:

Not at all. 

Why do you say that? 

Because you're attempting to excuse greedy behavior with it could happen to you it could happen to me.

43 minutes ago, Mike said:

Because you think (erroniously) that I think VPW did no wrong?

 

You sure waste a lot of time making excuses for his bad behavior.

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

Well, I don't do that either, and I don't condone others doing it.

You condone Saint Vic doing it.

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

What you describe could conceivably be done by revelation in rare cases, if God knew it would be good for the hearers. 

Yah, sure robbing the poor would be good for the poor.

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

HOWEVER, I have to admit that like the scarcity of miracles, there was a scarcity of genuine revelation received by leadership as time went by.   Most revelations were faked and carefully announced ONLY if there was no way to watch and see if it was accurate.  No one ever got revelation on the horse races or lottery numbers that I heard of

Your out in left field. I'm speaking of the prosperity lie.

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

Bingo!  We have a winner!

And you're proving what a loser you really are.

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

Most of you folks post in response to me vast amounts of total garbage chaff which is disguised as humor.

If you're getting "garbage chaff" there's a reason. Maybe you should look into it. Hint:  it's no to hide things from your read only audience.

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

  This is an attempt to hide good things that I post from the "Read-Only" audience at home watching this Reality Show.  This chaff attack strategy is a standard tactic when you have no serious response to offer.

If your read only audience is still with you after the assertation that the ministry didn't teach material abundance, well it says a lot about them. Many of those chaff attack posts, as you call them, rain brains. But then some people have umbrellas.

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

It would be easy as pie to make a text file of any page I post on, and color the chaff paragraphs in bold red fonts, or maybe shrink them way down to 2 point micro fonts. 

Whatever floats your boat. That might be a great idea of what to do with some of those 75 paragraph post of yours. And what to do when you go off on tangents. Shrink the text down to 2 point.

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

Reading the thread and skipping the chaff would be easier and faster for anyone, and no content would be lost. Lost would be the failed attempts of wannabee stand-up comics.

The only wannabe stand up comc here is you.

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

Maybe we should make the GSC book formatted that way, but I don't really know how that would work in the screenplay.

Huh?

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

That could happen.... to you and me, as well.

 

And somehow you think this makes acting on greed right?

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

That could happen.... to you and me, as well.

 

Yah, but I'm not encouraging a!ready impoverish people to give me 15% of their income with the promise God will bless them with a blessing so big the won't be able to receive it and they'll find their way out of poverty.

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

This is dangerous for me to respond outside my backlog.  It could be lost forever.

But this bears some brief response.

By operating material giving we learn how to give spiritually.

By WHERE we give to, we are already learning this. 

When we give anything we are better able to receive both physical teaching from men and spiritual guidance from God.

Giving is a very high form of biology. I think it is in birds and reptiles, but it becomes abundant in mammals.  Caring for the young is it's central theme, and starting point.

*/*/*

The idea of giving only or first to TWI was supposed to be a temporary measure in 1972, because so many of the twig leaders were very, very young, inexperienced in life, and untrained in the Word.  It is regrettable that it was enshrined and mounted in concrete ther

If the ministry wasn't teaching material abundance, why the promise God would give us our heart's desire? I believe there was even a song about it from Pressed Down or Joyful Noise.

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

This is dangerous for me to respond outside my backlog.  It could be lost forever.

But this bears some brief response.

By operating material giving we learn how to give spiritually.

By WHERE we give to, we are already learning this. 

Yah, sure, we see this in the ministry. Saint Vic et al, who receive so much, gave what?

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

When we give anything we are better able to receive both physical teaching from men and spiritual guidance from God.

So then why didn't Saint Vic et al give of all that cash?

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

Giving is a very high form of biology. I think it is in birds and reptiles, but it becomes abundant in mammals.  Caring for the young is it's central theme, and starting point.

Nobody cares.

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

*/*/*

The idea of giving only or first to TWI was supposed to be a temporary measure in 1972, because so many of the twig leaders were very, very young, inexperienced in life, and untrained in the Word.  It is regrettable that it was enshrined and mounted in concrete there.

Well, once Saint Vic saw all that money, greed took over.

28 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Here is a great example of HOW to think vs WHAT to beleeeve. This is what it means to doubt. There is no risk in doubting, questioning. Beleeef is a liability. (It might even cost you $797.5M for spreading beleeef.)

I had the same impressions and questions when I read this story. And the same kinds of questions for the withered hand healing in India and for the rabbi teaching the bastard Jew bar mitzvah and so many others.

One hundred years ago Bertrand Russell, when asked about the greatest existential threat to mankind, he answered, "Credulousness." (I'll find the clip and post it.)

--

Because we are in the doctrinal sub, I'll bring up doubting Thomas, again. I think the author of John had a problem with Thomas for reasons we can never know for sure. I don't take the same traditional lesson that most religious leaders propagate.

Thomas found out something. He found TF out!! Of all the apostles he was the only one who who was rewarded for questioning, doubting, endeavoring to find out. His reward? A profound disillusionment, understanding and awareness that left him speechless -- because, what could he possibly say? He didn't have to believe, he knew, he found out.

 

 

 

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.”

— Thomas Jefferson

47 minutes ago, Raf said:

Hey, back on the topic of Ralph Dubofsky's horses hit story about SIT, anyone have his father's name or the years he taught at CCNY? I tried googling "least competent linguists imaginable," but nothing came back. Ditto for "linguists who wouldn't recognize a Nobel Prize winning paper falling into his lap." Zero results.

I would agree with Raf. Something has to be missing in the account. A scientist encounters something he can't explain and his best response is "If you can't put it under a microscope..."

One wonders how he planned on putting spoken word under a microscope.

On 4/30/2023 at 1:37 PM, Mike said:

As usual, if anyone said anything significant in my 14 hour backlog, please feel free to repeat it here, lest it fall through the cracks, which backlogs are known  to do.

22 hours ago, chockfull said:

As usual if Mike stops spewing horse manure and says anything coherent please let me know so I don’t have to wade through all of that to see it.

Actually it's his off-handed way of suggesting what we posted was insignificant as far as he was concerned.

On 4/30/2023 at 1:37 PM, Mike said:

As usual, if anyone said anything significant in my 14 hour backlog, please feel free to repeat it here, lest it fall through the cracks, which backlogs are known  to do.

To the above reposts, I'd like to add:

If the ministry didn't teach material abundance, what's the point of ABS? You don't honestly think people would willingly give 15% of their income for something they couldn't hold in their hand, do you?

And then there's the booklet Christians Should Be Prosperous given out with the class materials.

Starting to add up, aren't they?

43 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

You are patently wrong !!!!!!! 

I think what you’re good at encoding is converting the twisted theology of a megalomaniac-drunken-liar-money-grubbing-plagiarizing-sexual-predator  into some kind of obfuscating bull-$hit that you like to push on Grease Spot.

 

Keep your damn mutating toxic folders infested with the inner demons of wierwille to yourself.  
 

Without opening a single page of the collaterals I can cite numerous references of wierwille’s fixation and promotion of greed and materialism - because I’ve had that cultic propaganda drilled into my head. Challenging the reader to think bigger for whatever their hearts desired by asking “are you limiting God?” Tempting the reader toward greed and materialism by instructing them to “get clear on what you want in your mind”

 

what do you think - we’re morons?

why do you think there was so much disappointment and disillusionment in TWI and why most people only lasted so long - and then left or slowly faded away because wierwille promised so much but his “law of believing”  , positive affirmations techniques , and tithing / abundant sharing / law of giving and receiving delivered nothing!

+100 ♥s

34 minutes ago, waysider said:

Why would I need it if the collaterals are perfec

 One would think he wants to know whether or not he can spin as something being in the transcript without being concerned whether or not someone can fact check him.

20 hours ago, So_crates said:

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

They believed the "Rich And Famous" interpretation of John 10:10 because that's where they were intentionally led.

It starts with John 10:10 and the abundant life. Then you're lead to the pressed down, shaken together, and running over verse, then into Ephesians for the now onto him who is able to do more than we can think or ask verse, then wrap it up with Malach and promiises of how the widows of heaven will open and a blessing will be poured out that you won't be able to receive. And all you have to do is ABS.

So Saint Vic and the ministry perpetrated the lie.

14 hours ago, So_crates said:

I see you're still driving your Dodge.

Like I said before, you don't minister to people by spinning the truth. Only the truth itself sets you (and them) free.

The woman requested Saint Vic pray for a material need, an apartment. Then she requested a greed, red drapes (I seriously doubt she would have died if she didn't get red drapes.)

Now, you don't need to have a PhD in logic to know that drapes are physical things and not spiritual, therefore God provided  physical abundance.

Please do look up your transcript and while your at it show me where in the class it says PLAF is only for spiritual abundance and do it without retconning or spinning.

 

12 hours ago, So_crates said:

So, if the ministry didn't hawk material abundance, what was the point of living "at need"? The point other than adding a few thousand a month to Saint Vic's coffers, that is.

Or does giving equals recieving mean something else too?