chockfull

5 hours ago, Mike said:

 I disagree.  All three (smarts, intelligence, sound mind) are involved in (1) assessing what one's own will is, and (2) choosing words that properly communicate what that will is.  

There are people who fall short in these areas, and for them we don't have reliable and full knowledge of what their will is, due to inefficient communication.

God, of course, is well aware of His own will, and fully able to communicate it or deliver it to those who are willing to receive it.

*/*/*

 

The other quality a human must have is trustworthiness.  If they lie about their will, then we can't know it. 

God, of course, does not lie.

*/*/*

 

So when we have an accurate knowledge of the Word of God on any topic, we have an accurate knowledge of God's will on that topic.

 

A short way of saying this that is easy to remember is:

The Word of God is the will of God.

 

*/*/*

The word "is" here should not be misinterpreted as being "mathematically equivalent to" because no math is involved here.  The word "is" denotes "association with," or "represented by," but not the word "equals" in the numerical sense.

 

What a beautiful and simple idea!

The Word of God is the will of God.

 

 

A beautiful and simple sounding phrase to catch the attention of the listener.

When you repeat it in a brainwashed fashion it almost sounds profound.  

Yet is it?

Is this not just another way of saying God is truthful and not a liar?  God speaks out of only one side of his mouth not two.  God is real not faux.

 But when you take that to the extreme in scribe territory and apply the who where what when why to whom under what time period all of that leads to further analysis and over complication.

That also involves dispensationalism in an attempt to dispel the harshness of Old Testament writings.

And it feeds into the rampant fundamentalist Bibliolatry consuming peoples time money and talents.  Which is the basis of Wierwilleolatry which is what your religion is.

Not about Godly love only.

Check.

Here is a modern expression that is simple enough for TWI to get:

6 hours ago, Rocky said:

Speaking of LOVE... this seems to illustrated it well. 

 

Sweet pup!

6 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Oh yeah...and he reminded us that hes a grease spot superstar with so many followers to respond to ....

Superstar!!!

7 hours ago, Charity said:

In The Power of Vulnerability, Brene Brown says, "We can only love others as much as we live ourselves." and she gives an example why she believes this.  Matthew 22:39 says, And the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Many others, including me, would say I love my children more than I love myself and I find some truth in this.  I would do anything for my children to keep them safe, loved, cared for, etc., and I mean this with all my heart.  But how is it that I would know how to love them one way, a better way, than I know to love myself and if I could, why would I not love myself in that same way?  Is it because they're more deserving than I am, or that I want them to "turn out healthier" than I did?   Yes on both accounts. 

However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting.  If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult.  What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc.  On this forum, I've heard how time spent in twi changed healthy beliefs about loving yourself and others into self-hatred or a distrust of love.  We learned that even the love of God was conditional and became hard-hearted towards certain others.  

When trying to figure this all out, there are self-help books, counselling and therapy on the one hand, and on the other are what scriptures teach like 2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind; and 1 Thes 4:9 But as touching brotherly love, ye need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another. 

What works and what doesn't work?  

 

This resonates with me.  I can understand an interpretation of Matt 22:39 in the sense of that expressing a healthy, balanced, and beneficial love that starts with a love of self and can be expressed freely as loving others.

An unhealthy, imbalanced, or maladaptive love does not have a healthy balance of self love and love of others.  Addictions fall under this kind of love.  Or permutations of abuse.

 Viewing love as an action verb helps IMO.  The more love is fueled by action and good will the more it catalyzes great things in the world.

The more love is relegated to an emotion, a feeling, or a passing state the more it is robbed of power and effect.  

To me it also makes sense to talk about love in the essence of a combination of logic and emotion, head and heart, and involving one’s entire being.

I guess that is my opinionated answer on what works and what doesn’t work. 

16 minutes ago, Mike said:

No, because I did it slowly, I could take better aim at worshiping and serving the true God which was being taught in the words.

It took me time to locate WHICH words from VPW were the most trustworthy:  from words spoken privately, to words spoken on tape, to "it is written."

I saw many in the shuffle who took his words in the wrong, opposite order, and they lacked good aim.

Those who fell in love with him wanted his personal private words, later his taped teachings, and last (or maybe never) his written words.

I did it slow so that I could do it right.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we continually thank God because, when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as the true word of God--the word which is now at work in you who believe.

I learned early from this verse (cited 3 times in the film class) that the proper aim is the True Word, and not the messenger.

That’s an amazing cult leader verse especially when you take it out of context.

I am sure Creflo Dollar prays the same prayer that all those that he is fleecing will receive his words not as those of a snake oil salesman but instead receiving them like it was God speaking to them directly.  And not questioning those words they will send in their ABS.

VPWs personality had flaws but his research had more.  Anyone with a reasonable logic process who watches Dr. Juedes video which is the topic of this thread probably will not accept VPWs words like they are coming directly from God.

Sure just suspend any critical thinking processes you have and immediately accept in these words like they were divine direction.

However Paul’s travels and teachings to Thessalonika were vastly different than Plaffy.  Instead of plagiarizing Peters teachings and presenting them as his own he developed his own path and teachings to the Gentiles.  He took the path Peter did not take instead of teaching to the same audience and trying to steal followers.  There were no Great Principle charts or excellor sessions.  There was no Way Ambassador program patterned after the Mormons where new converts and teenagers do the work to promulgate the group.  There was No Corps with annual “placements” a thumb of control over all leadership.

10 hours ago, Mike said:

From your academic citations and using the same tools they use.

I get the impression you want me to lay out in detail the 28 years that I came to accept the collaterals SO THAT you can poke holes in my methods, and cause doubt in me.

I get the impression that you, like all academics would, feel that my acceptance of the collaterals is a mistake and that they can't be truth.

You already reject the collaterals, and now you want to reject the details of HOW I got to accept the collaterals.

THAT kind of "civil discourse" I reject.

 

Actually this thread is about a pastor of a mainstream Christian denomination church rejecting the collaterals because they are shallow and have shoddy handling of scripture and poor workmanship.  He is on the same position of service VP was as a pastor so offers an objective external view based upon research into it.

What the thread is not about is Mike, his beliefs, views on Plaffy collaterals, or how he arrived at his conclusions.

I understand Mike regularly gets this confused on most of the threads he comments on trying to make them about him and his beliefs about the collaterals which defy common sense.

So that is why some threads get mucked up.  Mike gets confused about the topic, starts changing it to himself, and everyone responds.

Give it a rest ostrich boy.

1 hour ago, Twinky said:

Just read.  Not note-taking and nit-picking.  Just read, for the pleasure of learning and understanding.  One word, then the next, then the next - and you don't need a concordance to do it. 

Gospel of John isn't the easiest place to start.  You could have tried Mark, considered by many the basis of the synoptic (look up meaning) gospels.  Matthew and Luke are also easy to read.

For myself, it wasn't any of those that started me seeking - it was the riveting adventure story and display of power in Acts of the Apostles.  Couldn't wait to read the next chapter!  I wanted to see that power in everyday life.  I wanted to tap into it.  So then, I could look back at the gospels.

 

Mike, if one thing doesn't work, try another.  Try reading Mark, Luke, John, Acts, or any of the epistles.  Or even reading parts of the OT (for the time being, not Ezekiel, Isaiah, and some of the other more prophetic books).  Try Good News Bible, a very easy reader, simple English.  Or The Message, in everyday English.  Just read the book.

Only when you have read the book, or sufficient parts of it, are you even remotely qualified to criticise.  And you do criticise the very Bible you purport to believe, when you submerge yourself in Janet & John books that purport to explain the Bible.

 

" I already knew the story..." - that's got to be a GSC gem, scintillating in its ridiculousness.

That’s a good suggestion.  I think the problem is that it’s like having on manure tinted sunglasses without knowing you have them on.

When Mike reads the book of Mark with the manure tinted sunglasses he doesn’t get an unbiased clear message straight off the page.  He gets a distortion.  He comes across all the Plaffy markings and underlining with a different color marker the verses from certain classes and interprets it in a Plaffy way.  So Mark as a servant portrays that all wayfers were “born again to serve” and the way you serve in this day and time is go Way Ambassador and Corpse.

The dendrites need to be trained in a different direction for people to be able to simply read and understand what is there without all the external influence.

14 hours ago, Mike said:

You are mistaking my carefully and slowly positioned LOCKS for unconscious and numb blinders.

Unlike most of you, I did not "fall in love" with VPW.  I went back and forth for many years on how much and where I wanted to trust him.  I was a very careful in thinking through my position; unlike most posters here IMO.  Most here snapped when their vpw-idol failed them. 

For sure, my careful and slow embracing of VPW and the collaterals, was unlike and even opposite of how Penworks made her early TWI decisions.

When I reached my 50th birthday, about 28 years after first taking PFAL, I was FINALLY ready to commit my life to the treasure I found by being occasionally meek to the collaterals.

J Juedes made up his mind to loath VPW in session one, from what I've seen.

Rocky, my expanded "search into religion/theology or any other way to characterize 'the things of God'" started in the late 1960s and was ENDING in the early 1970s years that I was in the Word.  I gave it a run, and it sucks what others say about God out there.  You folks just love to eat up that junk out of your love to hate PFAL and VPW.  You can't fool me.

 

So unlike all the other VPW idolators who snap quickly to kneeling before their idol, because you did it slower it’s not idolatry!

It’s like the guy who stayed 3 weeks in Catholic mass because that’s how long it took his knees to creak allowing him to kneel on the kneeler!

JJ had several people who came to him a wreck from VPs so called ministry.  That was the start of his opinion.  Digging into the research was just the next step in helping those people.

And now you assess all those who refuse to bow the knee to the charlatan as consumed by hate.  No we’re consumed by common sense.  And we don’t like spending all our money on poor tasting snake oil telling everyone it’s great.

35 minutes ago, Mike said:

Bad guess.

God's Word is as much God as God is God.

Where are you going to find God's written Word, outside the collaterals, where if is understandable?

Jesus lined himself up with the written Word, and that was not idolatry.

Not a guess.  It actually is a ridiculous extension of bibliolatry.

I just re watched JJs video.  Man he has some fantastic logic- like:

1. If you take out Bullinger Stiles and Leonard’s material from RHST there would be almost nothing left.

2. Shallowness of collaterals - they all were transcribed sermons - tape 295 lol.  JJ compared VPWs shallow writings with Kittels handling of scriptures.

3. They support his “find me a text to support what my interpretation of this scripture is “ method of research.

Really great video.  Comprehensive.

Regardless of how offended watchers get as he said.

I think your “where”? question is more rhetorical as each individual is responsible to seek out and prove truth for themselves.

With the bibliolatry topic it is really interesting that the Greek word for “scribe” in the Bible is “grammateis” or grammatician.

Jesus confronted them as opposed to joining in their endless meaningless philosophical debates.

He taught with authority not like those scribes.  He had simple clear direct logic:

I’m guessing “collateralolatry” would also be a problematic similar term?

Back to this topic about the benefits of GSC.

I ran across this quote by Nelson Mandela:

”For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others”

To me GSC has provided a platform for that.

5 hours ago, Mike said:

The Deadhead Community I hang out with these days think of dancing and the music as crucial components of a religion.

In my youth, when I disliked dancing and was quite jealous of people who could dance, it seemed that S.I.T. was similar to what I saw in dance.  It felt like the mechanics of speech were in a dance at times when I'd SIT.

In my excellor's sessions, when I brought up this dance association, a few students lit up with the idea and quickly progressed into abundant fluency, with no noticeable repetitions.

In dance you move muscles (with free will) according to the dictates of the music.

In SIT you move muscles (with free will) according to the dictates of the spirit. 

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

 

So DIT - dancing in tongues.

Is this what happens when deaf people SIT?

And they know ASL?

10 hours ago, Mike said:

Sounds to me the imagery spoiled the music for you.

Yes, art is emotion, and the music ALONE gave me great emotions. I have a few songs in my playlist for car trips.

I literally avoided looking at the dance parts after the first viewing. In those days I was literally a dance phobe.  I hated it, and avoided it everywhere, since childhood.

It was only 10 years ago that I learned to appreciate it both as an observer and a participant.  It is the most fun thing I ever found in my life.

 

Art is emotion.

But dancing is life.

1 hour ago, Mike said:

It was earbuds, not headphones; save your prayers.

 

Here you go Mikey!  Whenever you have free time to watch as well as listen.

Get rocked by the Way Orchestra.  

You can’t stop the lo shontas even if u wanted to.  

1 minute ago, Mike said:

 

I was not so unfortunate to have bonded my eyes to the visuals in AOS.  I think I got the cassette tape before seeing the video.  But for sure, I only saw the video once, and then heard the cassette music MANY TIMES on my walkman while working.

I got an unbiased hearing of the music; I understand your handicap.

Forgive me if my view is that cleaning windows with headphones on and AOS orchestra in the background clearly represents way more of a handicap than I have ever dealt with.

You are in my prayers.

On 7/20/2023 at 8:45 AM, chockfull said:

Hey penworks,

I’m not brainwashed…. brainwashed….. brainwashed.

Now when you read that sentence you also have to supply the visuals of a guy doing the robot dance.  Or it doesn’t have the full impact.

 

 

Just realized this gave the impression I had not read penworks book.

I ordered it from her and started reading it one weekend.  I almost got through all of it the same weekend.  It really was riveting reading through it the first time.  Took me maybe one week to read it.

It is one of the only true historical accounts available for that time period in TWI and to me shows another side of the story of the earlier days.  The factual accounts all ring true from my experiences.

Anyway commentaries here aren’t always corralled neatly into the right threads per topic - sorry.

On 7/19/2023 at 10:41 PM, WordWolf said:

Saying the melodies in AOS are "riveting" is overselling them. Most of them, IMHO, are pretty good, but not ESPECIALLY noteworthy, and certainly not "riveting".   And there's at least one song that is dissonant, painful to listen to, and calling it "mediocre" would be generous.

I mean “riveting” could mean a train wreck catching your attention.

Cue the Way Orchestra and the little riffs going on - men in tights doing the jock shuffle to represent SIT.

Then slowly a group of 20 strippers emerges all doing a pole dance routine without the pole.

Then the jock puts the seed ladies foot on his shoulder and gazes into her eyes.  Then she collapses into his arms.

I mean it’s totally understandable why John Travolta and Scientology had to try and duplicate that on Staying Alive 2.

It’s so……. so……..

Riveting

lol

On 7/21/2023 at 3:40 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

The white horse will be saddled with bags filled with the collaterals. Jesus will teach from PFAL. And the music of AOS will provide the soundtrack.

Is crossing Plaffy with the book of Revelation the equivalent to a new kind of designer drug?

What you describe sounds like a really bad trip on a designer drug.  I mean so bad you have the potential for Teletubbies appearing riding purple dinosaurs.

I mean this would be what we are trying to rescue Mikey from as it sounds downright frightening.  

6 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Reminds me of Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk and prolific author who connected with Buddhists in Asia. Are you familiar with him?

In his final letter he wrote,

"In my contacts with these new friends, I also feel a consolation in my own faith in Christ and in his dwelling presence. I hope and believe he may be present in the hearts of all of us."

I have not read Merton.  I’ll look him up.  My Buddhist friend has remarked to a group of us Christians that he felt it was evident that Jesus had reached enlightenment by his words in teachings.  He also had a strong sense of what he said had to be Jesus traveling to the East during part of his life and being instructed in some things.  He said the prayers reflect that.  I told him that between early teen years and late twenties there is no record of Jesus actions so all of that has possibilities.  I also have heard of progressive Christian churches hiring a Buddhist monk to help them with how to pray better.  

I don’t have a strong sense of how this will turn out.  I’m just connecting and moving through it.  

One other thing that came to mind reading some of the responses is that Christian Fundamentalism is a big business, and a lot of the artifacts around it support that big business.  Scrolls, software, archaeology, philosophical writings and commentaries.  I guess if there is a demand for something individuals will dream up ways to produce a supply to meet that demand.

On 7/21/2023 at 4:32 AM, penworks said:

By the way, one thing I like about The End of Biblical Studies is the well researched information about the many Bible companies, university classes on the Bible, and the tons of Christian churches promoting Bibles that keep the cycle of studying ancient Scriptures going to the exlusion of other writings. 

I think it's good to read a book before we criticize or discard it. 

During my post-Way journey, I learned I could actually live a good, ethical, and valualbe life without reading or staying hooked on the Bible. That's just me. I realized VPW had brainwashed me into thinking I could not live without "The Bible," (that term is meaningless because there are so many kinds of versions of Bibles there isn't just one Bible). I found I had been addicted to having a Bible be the centerpiece of my life. I let myself consider the fact that there were millions of good people over centuries and centuries who lived loving and productive lives before there were ever any Bibles in existence. 

This is not to say there aren't many good and valuable lessons found in Bibles. For myself, I just had to acknowledge what these Bibles were before I attached value to them. Finally, I stepped back and saw that Bibles are anthologies of ancient writings by men, arranged in a certain order, which can vary. So, too, does content of Bibles vary. I asked myself whether they were helpful for me today? In what way are they useful to modern man?

Just for the record, here's where I'm "at" these days:

Charlene’s Post-Cult Nonreligious Alternative | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

One of the things for me post Way journey that opened up seeing how egotistical the fundamentalist view we had was having a couple of close friends from other religions.  A work colleague who is Muslim I spoke with about beliefs over the course of about 5 years.  I saw him become involved with and give a lot of time and money to a charity placing orphans from another country with families in US.  I saw the good done in his life and knew God had to recognize it.  On the other hand most Christians I knew would never do anything like that.  

Faith is supposed to motivate ourselves toward the best version of ourselves possible.  

Yet what I saw in the Way was other types of motivation.  Fear, lust, selfishness, power.  Thoughts and attitudes which galvanized evil not good.  For many it was not the best but their worst version of themselves emerging.

Another friend I have spoken with over a decade plus about faith is a devout Chan Buddhist raised from birth.  The more I embrace of his faith the more he is drawn to Christ.  I wonder if that’s a Zen energy type of thing.

Anyway where I am at is if someone finds a spark that draws out the best version of themselves I support them pursuing it.  And Christians can more reflect Christ pretty much always for sure.

To strive for betterment is a worthy goal.

11 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Just rewatched part of the video where craig was teaching his fellowship how to fight deebil spurts...that production is awful....the only thing ?

 

yep...

 

 

yoiu guessed it

 

 

 Now there’s a man who truly understands the robot dance.  
 

Is it irony that the topic is “renewed mind” while the motion depicts a brainwashed state?

3 hours ago, penworks said:

Glad to hear Undertow helped you, Logicisgreatstuff. Your generation of Wayfers is near and dear to my heart, since my daughter was 12 years old when we escaped HQ. She reminds me that I said over and over that I wrote Undertow for your generation, since most (certainly not all) in mine were/are too brainwashed to consider reading it.

By the way, logic, too, is near and dear to my heart. One of my favorite college courses post-TWI was Symbolic Logic. 

Cheers!

Hey penworks,

I’m not brainwashed…. brainwashed….. brainwashed.

Now when you read that sentence you also have to supply the visuals of a guy doing the robot dance.  Or it doesn’t have the full impact.

On 6/9/2023 at 7:10 AM, Logicisgreatstuff said:

I experienced the same thing!

But instead of my education hindering progress in TWI, it was the other way round. I, an all-A’s student, started receiving C’s (and lower) in my wring class. I failed assignments! Unbelievable. 

The difference? Before then, I guess most writing assignments were just to check that we knew the mechanics of writing, spelling, grammar, and what have you.

Now suddenly our teacher expected us to think clearly, make a point, and give evidence for it. You know, like a thesis statement. And an argument, and one not based on fallacious reasoning.  

The most hilarious part (in hindsight) is that my lowest marks were when she accused me of plagiarism! I was so confused. I really believed I was citing sources properly by including the name of a book at the end of the paper.

Thankfully this lasted only a couple years before the lessons really took. Then I had to learn to split my thinking between school mode and TWI mode, so I could function in both contexts. 

Hey Logic nice post.

OMG this took me back to college and the first time I took PFAL.  I also was in a college writing class and tried to use logic about “keys to the Words interpretation” to explain my logic and told the professor I wrote using “figures of speech”.  He gave me a D for that paper and told me my logic wasn’t as good as I thought it was.  LMFAO!  

I did pull the grade up to an A by taking his advice and listening and following directions on writing assignments.  That was very difficult.

Since then unlike penworks my writing has vastly degraded over time and devolved into a more informal exchange of ideas as on this forum.  

Except for this one period of time I wrote and published a book and contributed as an author on two more.  That was more like dental extraction.  The topic is not anything Way related.  As an author I have the potential to make about $1.50 an hour from calculations.    And my favorite quote about being an author is from someone I don’t remember.

”I love deadlines.  I love the swooshing sound they make as they go by”.

Welcome to the cafe and have a coffee and scone on the house.  

Sorry for our loss.  I never had the pleasure…