chockfull

My kids have seen the impact of a fundamentalist Christian cult on our lives and have experienced some of that as children.  

They are very aware of the abuse involved with Way leadership and their treatment of us as ministers.

They will never go to anything related to Wierwille or the Way.  That is 100 percent due to the actions of current and former leadership and their putrid example of Christianity.  

They are grown and out of the house and exploring on their own growing and developing their own ideas and spiritual views and priorities.  

I don’t worry about them being an “atheist” as that is a classification label used by judgmental fundamentalist Christians.

They have a respect for God and scripture an understanding of Christ and encouragement from us to explore what helps them most in life.  

They are wonderful caring contributing members of society that are balanced and help others.  One organized at their work a group making blankets for the homeless, which will help the homeless infinitely more than “the class” would.  

I’m sure many would have questions about them but I don’t want to write a lot of personal details.  They deserve the privacy of enjoying their lives without more cult backlash.  That is another reason why I’m not writing a memoir. 

I’m sure they will probably at some point get witnessed to or sent a postcard.  They can respond with a puzzling look and a “no thank you”.  Much better than an entangled life of lies and bondage.

Kids growing up in a cult have a special Dante’s Inferno they endure.  Mine have.  I need their adult lives to be free from that and not impacted by my decisions and goals.  They certainly don’t need impact from any personal moglet ascension priorities which I don’t have unlike 98% of my former friends in the Way Corpse.

On 9/30/2023 at 12:13 PM, penworks said:

Today's blog post:

Echo in New Knoxville, Ohio: Minister Reads "Undertow" | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

Great blog it was an enjoyable read along with the comments.  

My observation regarding the new “post card ministry” that the Way has going on.  The Jehovahs Witness Governing Body has mostly turned that high control cult into a publishing organization and a construction organization.

Everyone on planet Earth has probably seen at least one copy of the “Awake” magazine published by the JW GB.  “Witnessing” as an activity among the Jehovahs Witness “Publishers” (their name for witnessing group) really only involves handing out those magazines and recording who took them.  This is done door to door and by putting pull carts full of literature at common public events in the community.

Sending post cards via mail is their way of “low risk witnessing”.  Like the JW there is no intelligence necessary, there is no necessity for understanding their doctrine completely to witness and there is no negative rejection to face.  Post card mailing lists can be handed to Way Ambassadors for follow up.  

I don’t mean to sidetrack the main thread point but I definitely see patterns where TWI employs similar tactics to the larger and older established cults.

It is all about avoiding any friction for the leaders and dispersing 100 percent of the work to underlings.

9 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

I guess we are to assume every illustration you have taken from a book, is sitting on the shelf in your library, or an ebook you have read?

You can assume whatever you want.  Yes if I post a link to a book, online article or online class it is one that I have read or participated in.  If it is one with a photo of the book cover yes I own it.

Why else would I recommend it?

If I need a summary of links on a topic I’ll ask ChatGPT.  The robots have read the books lol.

I saw this on Reddit posted by an active Jehovahs Witness regarding their assembly meeting and the teaching of the Governing Body.

This is way funnier than anything I could say so here it is:

—————————————————————-

I took extensive notes at our assembly yesterday, thought I'd share

Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. 

13 hours ago, Charity said:

The topic of forgiveness came up when I visited a Christian on Thursday.  When I said I believed we are told in scripture to forgive those once they have repented, she could not accept this and gave me many reasons why I was wrong including Bible verses.  One thing she said that stuck out to me was God requires repentance because He's God - we're not God and so that condition does not apply to us.  It sounded right, and I left there wondering if it was true or not.  

The next day, I did some searches on the internet and found one that listed every reason she had given me the night before also with a Bible verse attached.    

1. God still tells me to. 1 Peter 3:8-9 

2. Jesus gave me an example when dying on the cross. Luke 23:34 (This one I accept.)

3. So my life isn’t blighted by bitterness and resentment. Hebrews 12:14-15

4. Forgiveness gives me power in my spirit. 1 Timothy 6:11

5. Most people don’t understand the significance of what they do.

6. Because I’m guilty too. John 8:7

The website is called 6 compelling reasons why you should forgive someone who isn't sorry (activechristianity.org)

There were other websites which basically said the same thing which shows how common a belief this is among Christians, including myself up to a few days ago.   Whenever they read the word "forgive" in the Bible, they automatically assume it means forgiving unconditionally, and is therefore something we must do and if we don't, we become sinners in God's eyes.  I feel it's one of those areas where wrong doctrine crept into the church that appears Godly when it's not.    

I did find two sites which do not teach the above.  They're listed below.

 Do You Have to Forgive People Who Don’t Even Ask for Forgiveness? (davidservant.com)

Do I have to forgive a person who does not apologize? - BibleAsk   

 

Hey Charity thanks for the effort searching out topical scriptures and the articles.  I’m going to set aside some time to go through all of those just for perspective.  I appreciate the work and sharing with us.

18 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

We are talking about forgiveness and the forgiver and the forgiven and absolution and resentment and responsibility and letting go and…

Repentance

Sincere regret or remorse; a change of mind or purpose… a change within spurred by deep regret or remorse.

This change, this repentance, will be self evident. It will be seen. It will be obvious. It will not require belief.

One may have legitimate doubts about an offender’s apology, especially if it is no sincere  apology at all, but it’s a manipulative dodge. And the apology may appear or sound sincere, especially to the good-hearted offended who wants to forgive. Anyone ever in a relationship with an NPD has heard these apologies seven times a day for 7000 consecutive days — they are mere hollow, empty platitudes. 

How can you know if someone is truly repentant? They will be changed in their heart and word and deed, they will live this change, and this change will be seen by all. 

I agree with this.  Dealing with NPDs or those on that spectrum involves a whole level of manipulation way beyond the norms and the abuse and forgiveness cycle to me seems definitely distorted.

Beyond that people’s logic can be affected by emotion.  If a person is real upset that clouds their vision and puts blinders on so they can’t see simple logic as it applies to them.

I actually believe scripture to be true about people whose conscience is seared with a hot iron. Those in power who continually make abusive decisions lose their moral compass.  In that they completely resemble a narcissist and just can’t see simple truth or logic as it applies to them.  One example of this is VPW firing John Schoenheit for publishing a simple word study on the word “adultery”.

My gut feeling is that forgiveness is a broad topic that has many underlying nuanced truths.  And that it doesn’t fit really well into an extreme fundamentalist viewpoint.  There are too many twists and turns that can be involved.

I think most basically forgiveness opens a door to the future, whether for self or for a relationship.

There are also seemingly contradictory concepts in scripture.  You have Jesus teaching to forgive your brother of a trespass 70x7.  You also have Jesus teaching about millstones and the future of Pharisees.  These need to be balanced by nuanced interpretations not extreme bigoted fundamentalist interpretations.

9 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

 

I don’t view atheists as having reprobate minds.  I think I called you some names though over the hypocrisy of purporting to speak for what God wants while not believing in Him.

I was over the line calling you names.  I apologize.

The scenario I can think of regarding the 70 x 7 answer I can make a parallel to my dogs behavior.  I have a hound pup whose nose gets him in trouble and I have to get after him 70 times a day easily.  But I can’t get bitter towards him because he’s a pain.  He’s a sweet pup.  Sometimes I get exhausted dealing with him so he goes in his crate and wife and I get a break.

Thats probably a stupid example but it’s the working one I have.

On 9/29/2023 at 4:45 PM, OldSkool said:

Very true. Online communications on an anon forums is difficult, especially in topics we are emotionally invested in such as those prevelant on GSC. Since the latest round of Mike wars Ive really desired to stop the bickering and I have. Im doing my best to stay objective and not get into the know you are but what am I type arguments that you guys warned me would ensue...lol. Peace all!

Honestly I am divided on this topic.  All the bickering is unpleasant.  However without it certain people control the narrative 100 percent.

This topic of “forgiveness” is among the worst for that due to how all these cults manipulate it so that they are not responsible to either ask for or to grant forgiveness from another.

False forgiveness keeps people in cults.  Genuine forgiveness releases a burden and allows for healing.

On 9/29/2023 at 3:34 PM, Rocky said:

On the topic of unenforceable rules, I was directed to a definition Fred Luskin included in his book, Forgive for Good.

The definition is in chapter 5 of this book. I don't own the book, but you might be able to access it either electronically or in a paper or hardbound book at your local public library.

The class (webinar) I referred to provided an including copies of the pages of chapter 5. I plan to read it later this evening.

Maybe you should own the book at least if you are illustrating it as something that is pertinent to the topic.

Have you read it or is it just a recommendation on Good Reads from someone?

And this thread is on forgiveness?

Well we see the gaslighting part that prevents people from taking accountability for their actions and asking for forgiveness.  I guess that is a small illustration.

And using manipulation to say “do this” and I’ll forgive you.

Holy crap this is a great illustration of how that cult used the emotional strings of forgiveness to play us like a violin .

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.

----

Asking rhetorical questions does not qualify as gaslighting, as I understand it. I will explain this. Rhetorical questions are NOT me feeding you false information (or lies). They are for you to answer your own damn questions.

And again, I don't take or obey orders from you.

Did your parents ever explain that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

Gaslighting is continuing to insist that the things I brought up didn’t happen, or just refusing to address them at all despite very clear instruction on the areas where I am calling out your behavior.

This causes me the writer to doubt memory, perception to the point where I have to quote you to prove what I am saying.

 I asking rhetorical questions does not consist of gaslighting.  However criticism of someone for answering a rhetorical question and multiple posts where you act like that didn’t happen ignore it, sluff it off, IS gaslighting.

I received similar treatment in TWI when I would bring up things to top leadership.  Ignore the points act like they didnt happen and control the narrative.

Now you’re acting like a victim like I’m giving you orders.  I am simply doing what you asked multiple times and spelling out the problematic behavior.

And you are taking a parent child tone with me belittling me and insinuating I didn’t learn certain skills when I was growing up.

I can’t say kiss my entire @$$ loud enough.

Now you can act like a victim again and tell me how hostile I am.

Congratulate yourself you are behaving exactly like your former captors who you profess to stand against.

Your behavior and your high levels of criticism toward my posts DID happen.  I’ve never seen anyone go to these lengths to deny their own behavior on here.

16 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Are you not aware of the mission of GSC?

Are you going to explain it to me like you did rhetorical questions?

It is to tell the other side of the story.  It is not an Underground Railroad to smuggle questioning people out of TWI.

Are you not aware of the mission of GSC?

24 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Dude... chill. I don't try to control or give orders to you. I don't take orders from you.

I don't have the foggiest idea why you get so upset.

But if you want me to explain anything, please spell out how, why and what have I written/said that you believe I was untruthful or counterfactual. 

I just did spell it out.  The repeated question is gaslighting.  Please explain what I asked in my previous post without all the BS.

I am not upset I am just not letting your BS criticism go unmentioned this time.  

Maybe you are projecting how upset you are onto me.

I’ll repeat it 

1. Explain constant criticism singling me out

2. Explain calling me Mike or just like him

3. Explain Dostoyevsky post and how it relates to forgiveness and why it was brought up

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

There is NO reason I would feel threatened by you. 

Me lying? Really?

Please just stop it. 

Then why do you consistently single out and criticize my posts?  You certainly do that and I’m not allowing you to gaslight me on this.

You explain.

You still haven’t explained how I’m like Mike logically.

And yes lying.  Explain the Dostoyevsky post in the midst of this back and forth.  Or answer directly.  Do you feel that quote is something I represent?  It certainly appears that way in context.  Oooh but no that’s coincidental.  How does it relate to forgiveness then?

36 minutes ago, Rocky said:

That is remarkably hostile projection, btw.

How is your message going to help people trying to escape TWI?  

Oh, and who's criticizing whom? 

I'm confident, however, that you understood my message but just don't like it.  

Ummm that would be you criticizing me and comparing me to people and calling me names.

I’m confident that you want to be the king of this website and somehow feel threatened when I post a lot here so you pretty much revert to criticizing me or attacking my posts in some fashion.  You have way more posts here than anyone else by a long shot.

No I didn’t understand your comparison of me to Mike other than understanding it’s a delusion of yours to push my buttons.  If it’s logical then please explain more about how I’m like Mike.

I don’t have any message or mission to help people escape TWI.  People have to do that for themselves.  

Oh and in the context of this argument it is fairly apparent that you do intend the Dostoyevsky post to be aimed at me despite your oooh it’s not aimed at anyone disclaimer.  So that is you lying about it to your audience.

I respect those whose actions and words garner respect.  If your words do not perhaps you should look within.

18 hours ago, Rocky said:

Your expectations about me constitute fantasy scenarios between your own ears. You sound like Mike when you accuse people of failing to read your mind.

I read your words. 

When a reader fails to understand your intended message, why do you think it's because of anything other than you not conveying what you intended to convey.

Really, you DO sound like Mike.

But if you drop the tangential malarkey, I'll forgive you.   

 

Or maybe you can stop criticizing people for stupid things like possibly responding to a rhetorical question.  That is you failing to convey your message in a logical and kind manner.

You really thrive on criticizing my posts.

Saying that I sound like Mike is beyond that and simply delusional.  My response is you can kiss my entire @$$.

My words included 3 rhetorical questions similar to the ones you criticized me for answering.  But you can’t take someone giving you the same back.

You are remarkably thin skinned for someone that is that obnoxiously critical.

Forgive me or not I really could care less. Trying to control someone’s behavior with forgiveness or not is called manipulation. You started the tangential crap with picking at me so you got it back.  I’ll stop when you do.

12 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Now you expect me to figure out what will help you understand rhetorical questions? Come on. 

No I expect you to be sharp enough to know I understand what rhetorical questions are and have been responding to you with them since you criticized me for responding to your rhetorical questions.

You didn’t pick up on it and have been doing exactly what you criticized me for over the last 3 interactions.  Answering rhetorical questions.

To me practically I approach this topic from a “cast your cares upon Me” type of perspective towards Jesus Christ.  I toss the concerns about the need for petty revenge upstairs and let him sort it all out.  Then the Searcher of Hearts will be the one to determine the need for forgiveness or repaid vengeance in His time.

I ain’t got time to carry that load of depression and anger around - screw that haul it to the dump and move on lighter in the heart.

Whatever.  The approach works ok for me.

3 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Do you understand the concept of rhetorical questions?

 

Will I understand them better by you answering mine?

28 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Why would you think I'm telling or asking you to do what I WANT you to do? 

I posed a rhetorical question.

It's up to you to decide what YOU want to do with what said question causes you to consider.

So I should stop answering your rhetorical questions then?

22 hours ago, Rocky said:

Are you asking STL for clarification???? Are you sure those are the only two possibilities?

Do you really want me to start listing out all the possibilities???

On the anonymous interwebz?

16 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Utter BS this: 

To me that reads “don’t get all high and mighty with your brothers and sisters as your shiz also stinks”.

Now the line for all the fundamentalist corrections of my interpretation starts 

over there ->
 

18 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I dont know about you being a troll or not and dont really care. However, there is a simple solution to said problem of former TWI leaders when it comes to wierwille and his issues. Honesty. Just admit the man was a con and some of the things he taught are true and Biblical. Repudiate the lies and distance oneself from his sins. Its not feasible to expect everyone to sit around in sack cloth and ashes in memory of wierwille. Of the three offshoots  mentioned STFI, TLTF, and CFF all three groups top leaders were the ones who told me to forgive and forget wierwille's sins and dont throw out the baby with the bath water. I dont know if these guys take notes from each other, or share the same playbook. Their last names were Gallagher, Lynn, and Guigou. All said the same thing to me. My healing depended on forgiving the way international and those who wronged me. And again, utter BS. My healing depended on my repentance and asking forgiveness for myself for being involved with a false prophet and spreading his lies. Thats where my freedom came from. Ive long since forgiven all things TWI and it made little difference in my day to day life. What made all the difference was accepting peace with my creator. God almighty, which many of you now say doesnt exist.

100 percent.

I haven’t talked to the splinter moglets directly.  But that bath water stinks of stolen BS and despair!

Which is probably why I haven’t talked to the splinter moglets directly.

That is the stupidest damn statement anyway.  Who here has actually bathed one of your children, but instead of using clean water you recycled it?

Thats exactly what joining a splinter would be like.

On 9/4/2023 at 3:30 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.

 No you didn’t say anything about God whatsoever when bringing up forgiveness.  From p. 1

1 hour ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Allow me to say this, even though Chockfull has proclaimed to the internet I have no right to express myself because of my non belief in God, thus I am just trolling along on GSC. 

Any @sshat leader who was in TWI and is currently operating an offshoot group, should immediately close up shop until they condemn the actions of VPW.

Furthermore, any dense jackfoot former follower of VPW, especially those who have held the mantle of leadership, must immediately prostrate themselves before “somebody” and beg forgiveness.

And especially, all those disingenous jackfoot trolls, such as myself, must immediatelly surrender their license to operate a PC, to the internet policing commission, until they can demonstrate a clear understanding that there is a loving God.

 

 

Dude I am commenting on a forum not “proclaiming on the internet”.  There’s like less than 10 participants here.  
 

Maybe you just need to chill a slight bit.