chockfull

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

 

Another synonym for “telling stories” is “lying” in the sense of being untruthful and replacing a truthful story with a fictional or imagined story.

5 hours ago, Rocky said:

How so?? 

How is it not?

Do you magically gain understanding without any logical reasoning?

please explain coherently instead of posting a link underlined sunesis pointing not to any definition of the word but to Carl Sagans argument against religion.

5 hours ago, Rocky said:

Good luck with that. Please keep us posted.

There are, as I understand it, quite a few contradictions and/or inconsistencies in Christian scriptures.

I realize Victor Wierwille indoctrinated us with his PFLAP class to view scripture as something without error or contradictions or inconsistencies. I simply no longer believe him on that point.

For examples regarding stories I present this brief clip with Simon Sinek. Take it or leave it, I don't care whether you believe it or not. 

 

 

It seems that the best “luck” I will have with logical reasoning would be to avoid those without it.

I do not believe the Bible is an anthropological story telling novel.  I do not believe that aligns in the least with Prov 2:1-5 that you quoted as your underlying ruling principle.

Without the acknowledgment of some kind of divine inspiration influence or other synonym in the Bible then there isn’t much reason to spend reading it. 
 

I read the “Epic of Gilgamesh” and was entertained by that story.  I don’t view that as equal to the Bible.

That is where my logic begins - with the acknowledgment there is something spiritual going on in the Bible.  If you don’t believe that than it makes sense you would waffle on your position not use logic and change your beliefs with every passing cool breeze:

4 minutes ago, Rocky said:

History of humankind is ALL about stories. For example, I consider the bible to be an anthology of stories.

How do I piece together ideas? Sunesis.

I read. Any and all subjects in which I become interested in.

Further, my guiding scripture verses, which I have cited multiple times on GSC, are Proverbs 2:1-5.

If, however by chance, you might be looking for a way to catch me in contradictions or inconsistencies, more power to you. For I view any such thing that may arise as an opportunity to either or both broaden and deepen my puny human understanding of "things." 

I don’t have to even look for that it seems to show up in successive posts - contradiction and inconsistency.

I am seeking to logically reason through ideas presented in scripture or derived from scripture.

Is not sunesis a logic based reasoning?

On 10/17/2023 at 9:33 PM, cman said:

So....when Christ forgives, is it for himself?

In Luke 23:34 it records Christ not forgiving people himself but rather praying to the Father to forgive them.

Why?

On 10/18/2023 at 2:18 AM, Rocky said:

Why would/could that be the case?

Philosophically, the entire premise of Christianity is wrapped around the concept of redemption, isn't it?

From my perspective these days, it seems early homo sapiens probably developed awareness of humanity's emotional and behavioral awkwardness and frailty. They had to come up with both an origin story or (myth) and a way to overcome the human tendency to hurt other people they cared about.

Jesus wasn't the first or only person or character to meet that need.

IDK, I'm just thinking "out loud" so to speak.

If Christ is a man who is the son of God only, then Jesus forgiveness from him would not be involved in redemption in the least.

It is his life sacrifice on the cross that redeems us.  And enables God the Father to forgive and redeem.

If Christ has divine elements like many Christians believe then his forgiveness would be involved in redemption indirectly.

On 10/18/2023 at 2:34 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

Is forgiveness liberating? For whom?

If I have hurt my brother, but I repent and I change and I seek to amend and I seek forgiveness from him, but he still won’t forgive me, who remains in bondage?

This would depend to me on what you mean by “hurt”.

Did you “hurt” me by calling me a name on an online forum?

Did you “hurt” me by murdering a family member?

While liberation from the first is easy and forgiveness would be inconsequential, saying I would be in bondage for giving that second account to God to settle is ludicrous.

On 10/18/2023 at 1:20 PM, WordWolf said:

Apples and oranges.

Rocky, there was a legitimate point there- you didn't make a distinction between two things that can sound similar but are very different things.  Please spell out the differences for those following along at home.

So Jesus forgiving people is an apple, but me forgiving people is an orange?

Perhaps you need to explain your botanical classification.  How are these two things that sound similar but are very different things?

22 hours ago, Rocky said:

Logic is a framework for thinking and analysis, sure. I don't see it as chains on a person's ability to understand life. So yes, I contradicted something. But I tried to explain why I believe it was warranted.

Was Einstein always correct in everything he believed and propounded?

 

If logic does not form boundaries around our discussions, what framework do you suggest for exchanging ideas?  If logic does not form a basis for how you understand life, what does?  How do you piece together ideas?  Or is it more you just respond off the top of the head with whatever comes into mind at the moment, then justify it later?

7 hours ago, Rocky said:

Why would/could that be the case?

Philosophically, the entire premise of Christianity is wrapped around the concept of redemption, isn't it?

From my perspective these days, it seems early homo sapiens probably developed awareness of humanity's emotional and behavioral awkwardness and frailty. They had to come up with both an origin story or (myth) and a way to overcome the human tendency to hurt other people they cared about.

Jesus wasn't the first or only person or character to meet that need.

IDK, I'm just thinking "out loud" so to speak.

Well it seems like the next logical premise after you stated your confidence in how forgiveness was for the individual.  If that is true it should logically extend to the purpose for Jesus forgiving people would it not?

But instead of following that logic now two posts later you contradict what you were confident in previously.

13 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I heard someone say, “Forgiveness is the forgiver absorbing the price…”

(Usually, the phrase is absorbing the COST. Cost and price are not the same.)

Any thoughts on this? The forgiver absorbs the cost/price. 

Yes.  As Way Corps I always absorbed the cost.  The cost of paying rent on a church that people can act however they want in multiple times a week.  They can destroy my property, criticize me, treat my family members poorly, then complain to leadership and I get in trouble.

I absorbed the cost of having to quit jobs and find new ones in short periods of time.  Of moving across the country but they wouldn't even pay for a motel to spread a trip out after a flunkie says “God wants you rested”.

I absorbed the cost of being Way Corps where a large percentage of your group you are in charge of is former dropped Corps or alumni who feel it wasn't fair so have to target you with all their killed dreams.

I absorbed the cost of fools in high places making idiotic business decisions that affected me and never apologized but just continued to expect unquestioning obedience at every subsequent idiotic decision.

I absorbed the cost of following megalomaniacs for decades.

In fact if you had to sum up my experience in Twi it could be done with the words “absorbing cost”.

Forgiveness?  Like being in a relationship with a narcissist it is a one way street.  

34 minutes ago, TLC said:

Apparently our time (and definitely our experiences) at HQ and with research dept members didn't overlap.  
Do you mind if I ask if you think anyone's belief regarding the Trinity has anything at all to do with salvation? 

The way I look at it I do not think it is logical that God would have an obscure interpretation of salvation verses that prevents a percentage of seekers from becoming born again who desire that.

So no I don't think any ones belief regarding the Trinity affects salvation.

I do think Wierwilles Trinity explanation and book served to effectively erect a barrier between followers of TWI and all other denominations and community churches that has never been effectively broken down.

Twits are seperate and do not collaborate with other Christians at all.  This is isolationist and contributes towards the climate of small groups of dictators running everything, the lack of voting privileges in the leadership body, and the general cult like feel of the group.

I feel that they live in doctrinal and practical error and are living examples of the eye saying to the hand “I have no need of you” as found in Corinthians the books they purport to be expert in and teaching the world about their take on it.

6 hours ago, cman said:

i think forgiveness is bigger than forgiveness, it's about making us greater than we can be without it

like yeah great you are forgiven, so what, what now

 

If forgiveness is a self inflating balloon then you can fly until your walls explode.

1 hour ago, TLC said:

Well, that sure doesn't fit with my experience while at HQ and some number of discussions I had with others in the research dept. (But, perhaps it did with others involved in the ministry, that I was unaware of.) 

What part doesn’t fit?  In my experience it was all assumed to be “handled” at the foundational class level and not discussed past then including at HQ and with research dept members I spoke to.  Did you interact with people there that covered these 7 points  in your research and discussion?

Expanding this discussion again.  The major concepts involved with the trinity are:

1. **Monotheism**: Christianity is fundamentally monotheistic, meaning it believes in one God.

2. **Three Persons, One God**: The Trinity teaches that God exists in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are co-equal and co-eternal, each fully and equally God.

3. **Unity in Diversity**: While there are three persons, they are not separate gods but one God in essence. This is often summarized with the phrase "One God in Three Persons."

4. **Relationship**: The Trinity emphasizes the eternal and loving relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They exist in a perfect, harmonious communion.

5. **Incarnation**: The doctrine of the Incarnation is closely tied to the Trinity. It teaches that God the Son (Jesus) took on human form while still being fully divine.

6. **Role Differentiation**: Each person of the Trinity has distinct roles in the work of salvation. The Father is the creator, the Son is the redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the sustainer and empowerer.

7. **Mystery**: The Trinity is often described as a divine mystery because it goes beyond human comprehension. It's something that Christians accept on faith, even though it may not be fully understandable.

These concepts are foundational to Christian theology, and the Trinity is a central doctrine in most Christian denominations. It's important to note that different Christian traditions may emphasize certain aspects of the Trinity differently.

So the Way and VPW mischaracterizes a number of these tenets prior to attacking them.

1. One God - so TWI basically tells mainstream Christians they worship 3 gods not one.  They sold bumper stickers saying honk if you worship one god not 3.  This belittles the concepts of the other person and causes division.  Christians believe in one God despite namecallers.

2. The Way does not accept co equal and co eternal.  To TWI the father is greater than the son and the spirit is a gift just an object.

3. Unity in diversity - a completely foreign concept to the Way who wants everyone uniform and Stepford.  This concept is beyond their comprehension.

4. Eternal loving relationship - the Way scratches their head as they mostly are responsible for division in the body of Christ, in families, friendships, leaders.

5. Incarnation - again beyond the concepts of the Way who are mostly uneducated as student loan debt is evil.

6. Role Differentiation - again in practice not understood by the Way.  You have the caste system in the way.  BOD->Clergy->Way Corps->twig coordinator->Adv class grad->layman.  Each stays in their category and are not permitted in higher categories.  Equality and function differentiation are foreign concepts.

7. Mystery - the Way accepts no mysteries but has to replace them with catch phrases. Fundamentalists project a know-it-all attitude and the Ways noses are 10 degrees higher in the air than fundamentalists impressing themselves with their mental gymnastics.

So in summary the trinity as a theological concept and interpretation of scripture is largely unknown by the Way as they discuss it only in the elementary school terminology of VPW and never stray far from his so called “revelation”.

Why would they not sell the FBoi motor coach after all the lawsuits?  I mean everything gives off something right?  I mean that coach gives off Drambuie Kools and perversion.

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

I saw a pic of the new post card. It's of the no-longer F***Mobile. One side of the card has a long view of the side of the bus. The address side has a pic of the back of the bus promoting PFLAP Today with a chyron kinda text at the bottom "Be part of the [bowel?] movement."

 

Yes I can confirm the email list blast on this postcard.  And that they aren’t sending me one lol.

Interesting.  They are keeping the history of the ministry accurate with their depictions I see.  What do they want to portray?  The FBus with PFlappy on the side.

Do I want to be part of the “movement”?  You know the Christian movement where they steal classes act like rock stars and drug and have sex with groupies on a tour bus?

Sounds like a movement for leisure suit Larry boomers 

I’ll pass.

On 4/5/2018 at 1:56 PM, Twinky said:

Okay, Krys, let's see if this works:

Yep, looks good.  There will be a thread somewhere here where Steve discussed this topic, and that's why he posted this paper.

 

Lortz trinity paper.pdf

Reviewing this again.  My comments are the topic of the trinity within the context of theologians outside of the TWI sphere of influence is complex and nuanced.

VPW dumbed it down to a single linear plane view that contains none of these nuances. Then he attacked that perceived Trinity definition with very shoddy explanations for any seeming  contradictions.  And published a book with a confrontational title.

30 years later followers of the Way, splinter groups, and ex members pretty much still buy into his logic.  Arrogant and prideful they elevate themselves above their brothers and sisters in Christ and have made up more perversions of scripture calling Christs body which spans all Christians in I Corinthians as inessential and “household” as the defining boundary around functional Christianity.

The true intent of those inventing these perversions is personal gain and control.  By these false doctrines they draw away followers of Jesus Christ and isolate them away from other Christians and control them.
 

On 8/21/2023 at 9:48 PM, cman said:

Like when he came back from India, why didn't he teach some of the eastern religion stuff. Something must have happened there that turned him against the eastern religions.

He was too busy with creative writing magnifying his trip.  First he had to do the key to the city story, then he had to make up the account like Jesus of the man with the withered hand on the train.  After that he had to publish his attack on the denominations outreach work in 3rd world countries.  After that he had to start a ministry ahead of any disciplinary board convened to talk about his paper and his affair with his secretary.

He was just too busy of a guy to teach all the orientalist culture stuff.  Besides he could just get Bishop Pillai to do all that work and steal it.

23 hours ago, Rocky said:

Is not the topic of cults inherently related to the characteristics of and interaction of social animals (humans), groups, and that of leaders?

Why would you not be interested in imagining, or exploring evolution of cults, social animals, groups, and leadership? Just asking. 

Didn’t say I wasn’t interested in the topic just that it’s off topic and to discuss it on a new thread.

You acknowledged in a subsequent post but all posters didn’t read that.

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Chock, I think you’ve proposed TWI is very similar to JW. I see it now. Oh, do I see it!

I’ve been reading threads here https://reddit.com/r/exjw/s/DyxZAxIuy3. From the org structure to the ever-morphing, doctrinal bulls hit to the manipulative control, it’s uncanny!

Terminology is slightly different, but the meanings and implications are exactly the same.

Just so sad, gross and stupid.

The crisis of cult - religious, ideological, political, national - is the single greatest existential threat to mankind. IMO

 

I find certain characteristics of different cults remind me of TWI.  The whole Plaffy witnessing running classes to me reminds me of the JWs and their dogged determination to “witness” meaning putting a watchtower pub in someone's hands or referring someone to JW.org that seems pretty similar.

The Mormons have all their positions as voluntary like bishops and Q70 or Q12 but demand the tithe out of followers.  That to me is similar to the Way how they handle staffing and money.

The Way Corps to me seems a lot like Scientology’s Sea Org.  A billion year commitment to making the world “clear”.  Using people paying them nothing shuffling them around doing the bidding of LRH or Miscavidge.

So to me The Way seems like a blend of a number of cult tactics and characteristics.  Like a cult souffle.

20 hours ago, penworks said:

In case you missed it, here's today's post on my blog - a 2-for-1 book review:

Reviews: 'Undertow' and 'The Cult That Snapped' | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

Cheers to Karl Kahler, my fellow writer on things pertaining to The Way! He rocks!

I enjoyed reading the reviews on Undertow.  And the interaction with Karl.

Thanks.

19 hours ago, Rocky said:

1) Because humans are inherently social animals.

2) The older you and I get, we are indeed more comfortable and secure in our own skins. Is that because we have FOUND our "tribe?" Those with whom we most relate and from whom we receive/give the most mutual support? I think, maybe.

Also, I read something a few days about about the prevalence of organisms, from individual cells to individuals, to colonies, to populations functioning more naturally together, than independently. If I can find that piece, I'll share it here. 

And I certainly DO agree it's something important to pay attention to.

Good perhaps if it is important to pay attention to you should start a thread on that topic

On 9/23/2023 at 5:58 PM, Rocky said:

Israeli historian (his nationality, not the focus of his research) Yuval Noah Harari, apparently in his book Homo Deus, posits the notion of collective imagination. My current understanding of Victor Wierwille's ministry and organization approaches it as a very definite collective imagination which many of us embraced FOR A TIME.

Based on the book 'Homo Deus' by Yuval Noah Harari (also author of Sapiens), this video explores the potential futures of humanity through the rise of humanism, the crisis of liberalism, and the emergence of god-like beings and dataism. Key topics covered include: How humanism replaced religion in modern society The flaws underlying liberal values like free will and the self Scenarios where AI renders many humans economically useless The prospect of a small elite upgrading to become god-like superhumans Dataism as a new techno-religion valuing information flow Reflections on finding meaning in life and imagination as our superpower Watch this video to understand the historical patterns shaping our possible futures and how we can prepare for the challenges ahead.

https://youtu.be/Ucewn8J5fJA?si=rDqrY9U2RUIZXgUn How close are we to [becoming?] Homo Deus?

 

This thread is on the book Undertow it is not on the book Homo Deus

17 hours ago, Rocky said:

Ants predate humans by hundreds of millions of years. They have evolved with ways to avoid many of the conflicts we humans still struggle with.

I hope it won't take humanity that long to figure out how to solve such problems/conflicts.

This thread is about cults and their similarity of operation to TWI.

It is not about ants or the struggle of humanity as a broad topic.  Please keep comments on topic.