chockfull

No English lit degrees nor am a grammar teacher.  Yes shocking I know lol.

Here are some notes on the Hebrew idiom of permission from the Revised English Version

https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Rom/9/18#:~:text=To be clear then%2C we,that God caused the hardening.

No connection to TWI there ….

Yeah edit.  My phone died I just saw this was a Schoenheit translation.

18 hours ago, Charity said:

I just came across this website about Jesus not being God and wondered if anyone knows a Kevin Gregg from twi?

https://www.theonenessofgod.org/connect/

 

C I looked that up and he is from a “One God Apostolic” denominational background.  Which is Pentecostal. Which is all of the Branham stuff in another thread here.

Here is the organization thread for Kevin’s One God Apostolic site.  It is mentioned at the bottom of his website.

https://www.truthministriesapostolicchurch.org
 

Sooooo.

Would there be a religion called “Twiggianity”?

A cult offshoot of the “Churchianity” religion?

Imagine modern day despots……

Who are actually atheists.

Ok that’s my attempt at writing another verse…

22 hours ago, Twinky said:

I want a real book.  Not very interested in more screen time.

I relate to this.  I like the texture of books.
 

I have used this option as kind of like the book feel instead of more time on the same phone or tablet.  Don’t know if it will help if not ignore lol.

Kindle Paperwhite

https://a.co/d/iiRVjFr
 

3 hours ago, Raf said:

See, "God-like mind reading capabilities" is what turns clear writing into "he didn't mean that, he was using the idiom of permission that I made up."

***

"God says what he means and means what he says!"

Fine. Here's what he says.

"He didn't mean that."

***

Sorry, I'm not the one doing the mindreading. Just the Biblereading 

I am a little less on the side of God says what He means and means what He says option as I feel that is too extreme of an interpretation of inspired writing that leads to denominations and cults.  My viewpoint is denouncing fundamentalism but not the overall Christianity message and concepts.

This leads me to view scripture more as a muse behind the writings as opposed to automatic writing dictation.  The latter to me produces a “Stepford wives” result that seems independent from whatever message is being peddled.  It seems very susceptible also to the Machiavellian pettiness present in all the worlds systems as opposed to a grassroots message to free the individual.  I feel that the muse view preserves the individual as well as the grassroots message.

Of course my views are = .06 with inflation lol.

Matt 24 presents a contradiction in timelines for sure.  This is one that has foiled the JWs through multiple generations of failed prophecy regarding the so called end times.

I have heard explanations that sound like rationalizations from multiple sources.

I don’t have a better explanation but am more inclined to go with the face value of Jesus was wrong or didn’t know and was guessing.

Can a man without sin be wrong?  I had previously thought the answer was “only if that man is married” lol.  But is Jesus proving me wrong once again?

23 hours ago, Raf said:

Jokes aside, I think the simplest expression of my thought is:

The idiom of permission was not the intent of the original writers. It only became necessary when the character of Yahweh developed into someone who would never do what earlier scriptures clearly said he did.

 

And yet this sounds remarkably like a position in an argument.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.  

The “intent of the original writers” huh?  So in dropping the idea of an imaginary God you have replaced it with God like mind reading capabilities that you possess?  Hmmmm.

Or could it just be older writers are writing about rougher times?

And could it also be that 100 percent of us here bought into VPWs snake oil and could be labeled “idiots of permission”???

On 11/3/2023 at 7:44 PM, cman said:

Boston now.......

Peace of Mind 

This is a bit but ever since I watched the movie “Men Who Stare at Goats” I have had to construct a Boston road-trip playlist that really captures this.

Twinky you can get both of Charlene’s books on Kindle.  Do a search for author.

To me the idiom of permission is similar to some of the practices I see changing in reporting the news.  They used to highly publicize all three names of any offender including doing foia requests for booking shots.

More recently they have refrained from publishing the serial killers names prominently in shooting incidents so as not to give them the attention or press they seek.

My understanding of the IOP is basically God is inspiring the same kind of thing so that the entire subject of the OT is not Satan, his angels, and his influenced subjects.

Bringing up Occam reminds me of an old story.  A guy walks into a bathroom stall and reads “God is dead”. Nietsche.  Underneath the guy crossed it out and wrote “Nietsche is dead”.  God.

Is it ironic that the closest thing now to Occam is dirt and daisies?

I wonder if all of the followers of the Way approve of using their tithes to send postcard spam to every physical mail location of a grad in their “book of life” database.

What's next?

I know they can transform into a “Watchtower Society” type of publication group making comic books for witnessing with middle school level topics.  Then each Way Ambassador could pass them out during mandated door to door witnessing outings.  And they could report weekly on how many new people they have for Plaffy.  Oh wait they already do that.  

On 10/18/2023 at 5:13 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

I don't disagree.

If this is the case, then Christ's forgiveness is self forgiveness.

If Christ is present within, or, more emphatically, powerfully, Christ is inseparable from us, then the forgiver is the forgiven.

 

 

I can relate to this logic.  

If we solve our own problems with Christ’s help then there is no place for the narcissist in the equation.

People can choose freely their own future without needing to be entangled with the bondage others seek to profit from a Christ -> believer relationship.

And I can freely give to the most deserving without obligation.

It is very PT Barnum like.  The greatest show on earth.  There's a sucker born every minute.

11 hours ago, Ham said:

 Squirrels are connected to Everything.  All you had to do was ask..  :)

 

Yes I see.  

11 hours ago, Rocky said:

Are you experiencing a denial of service because you think I post too much? 

No that would be everyone on the forum.  DDOS attacks don’t single people out.

1 minute ago, Rocky said:

Well, he DID say I offended him. 

He even offered a bit of an explanation as to why he felt offended.

Am I supposed to be offended by any of that? I am not.

It doesn't even bother me that he called me names (i.e. Mike; and bullshonta).

Are you offended by my use of my "voice?" (number of posts at GSC)? Gosh, I hope not.

Sometimes I wonder if someone somewhere is doing an experiment with a chatbot.

It doesn't offend me.

It does resemble a bit of a DDOS attack though.  Flood the forum with random threads and contributions that to me and many do seem anti-Christian in overall character.  I mean they do seem overall friendly and not hostile.

If all these philosophical ponderings are here then the question I have is “ if you are ADHD enough is a squirrel connected to everything?”

3 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Things which offend you are not always (and probably never or rarely) are about you.

"It is not our purpose to become each other, it is to recognize to learn to see each other, and honor him for what he is." Herman Hesse, German-Swiss poet, 1877-1962

"Love your suffering. Do not resist it, do not flee it. It is only your aversion to it that hurts, nothing else." Herman Hesse

Today, while waiting with a friend who was at the office of an ophthalmologist, I sat (for 2.5 hours) reading Bart Ehrman's History of Heaven and Hell.

His research into said history is extensive and well-documented. I was amazed at how different early Christians and also Jews viewed (or didn't) the afterlife.

I surmised, after reading, that even though NONE of them believed in afterlife, the theology and doctrine evolved incrementally over many years.

Regarding the passage in Joshua 10, at issue in the OP for this thread, which agree or disagree is legitimately about the subculture through which we have common ground, I have (so far) surmised that Victor Wierwille ignored or at least de-emphasized passages like this because he didn't want to deal with it/them.

The variations in interpretations of the passage, as already expressed by people on this thread, illustrates the human propensity to rationalize in many ways each thing each reads in the Bible.

Again, this is NOT any one picking on any of you. If you're offended by what I posed to you... well, you read it and you decided what you're willing to do with the narrative set forth.

I do not have any authoritative interpretation of the passage. I only set it forth for your consideration.  

Hold on.

Just for one second stop constructing more random references.

Consider that perhaps just possibly the things that offend him could be about you?

I mean even Taylor can own up to her impact in “Anti Hero”.  Maybe you should listen to that on repeat rather than upping your post count by another 500 random agitated posts?

23 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Though this isnt a "Christian" website, many people here no longer have any respect for Christians or their beliefs. Bible bashing is a large part of what grease spot has become and frankly I find it offensive and seldom participate here as a result. It is what it is because Ive grown so far past the way international I have little left to say on them that I havent stated already, or has been stated by others. I feel this site is no longer tolerant of Christians and that includes me. Peace.

Yes it is interesting here as well as on the cult related Reddit channels I read that there are quite a lot of people whose fruit evidenced after being in a cult is to reject Christianity completely.

There are others like me who reject Fundamentalist approaches and retain faith.  I float around churches and mainstream Christians.

I guess the remaining would be in splinters with whitewashed statues of VP in their closets as they try to drum up participants for their latest version of Plaffy the new light which is old light.

That is going to be part of Christs return setting all these imbalances in order IMO.  One Lord one faith one baptism not all these clowns spouting hot air.

On 10/23/2023 at 2:26 PM, Rocky said:

Yes, it IS about the Way. The question/issue is, how did or would Victor Wierwille deal with this passage of scripture.

The answer is “poorly” for $5000 Alex

On 10/23/2023 at 12:48 PM, Rocky said:

What would happen IF... on a day the sun stood still? Oh, wait, when did Galileo or Copernicus or any other scientist or mathematician figure out that it wasn't the SUN which would stand still, but maybe was the EARTH?

The following passage from the Book of Joshua records intriguing events, including scientifically DUBIOUS ones. What was it Victor Wierwille said about scripture? Something about mathematically precise and scientifically accurate? Or was it mathematically accurate and scientifically precise? Or does it EVEN MATTER?

Did he ever explain this one in light of scientific understanding developed long after the time of Joshua or even Jesus?

Joshua chapter 10

So Joshua marched up from Gilgal with his entire army, including all the best fighting men. 8The Lord said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid of them; I have given them into your hand. Not one of them will be able to withstand you.”

9After an all-night march from Gilgal, Joshua took them by surprise. 10The Lord threw them into confusion before Israel, so Joshua and the Israelites defeated them completely at Gibeon. Israel pursued them along the road going up to Beth Horon and cut them down all the way to Azekah and Makkedah. 11As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the Lord hurled large hailstones down on them, and more of them died from the hail than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.

12On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,

and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”

13So the sun stood still,

and the moon stopped,

till the nation avenged itself on ^b its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

 -----

Is this passage actually "in the original God-breathed Word?" or 

Is this a definitive forgery from a different age? or

Is it simply an Orientalism or Figure of Speech? or

Something else?

Is this a STORY of a series of events told from the human perspective?

How did Wierwille rationalize it, if he recognized the passage at all?

How do we TODAY rationalize it, now that we have pulled our attention and recognition to it?

-----

It seems the SUN, according to astrophysics as I (minimally) understand it, would NOT have been the heavenly body in question for actually scientifically figuring out what really MIGHT have happened on the day described in Joshua 10. Since we NOW understand our 24 hour daily time cycle to be a function of EARTH rotating on its axis, if we were to hypothesize what would really happen if the sun were to "delay going down about a full day," what would actually happen on EARTH when that occurred?

Well, MY scientific knowledge, understanding, and imagination fails me when trying to figure it out... BUT, I now bring to you world renown astrophysicist Neil de Grasse Tyson to draw the picture for you WITH WORDS.

 

What if this was foretelling prophecy of daylight savings time? 

What if Rocky could actually stick to one topic in a thread without introducing God, scripture, Galileo, Copernicus, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson in one semi coherent rambling?

I mean the section that scripture I would file under the same as the really old guys in Genesis.

I always considered that scripture motivation in sports.  I could believe that God wouldn’t let the sun go down while we were whooping the other teams butts!

I guess “churchianity” would be an invented word an amalgamation of church and Christianity.

Substitute “church” for “Christ” and I guess that explains it all.  I do hear modern Christian pastors talking about the “unchurched”.

To me all that is more examples of building a Tower of Babel like in Genesis.

5 hours ago, Rocky said:

I get it. Of course, I will continue to do me. 

I appreciate your candor and that hopefully you will no longer find disagreement an attack on you or picking on you.

Indeed, there has been plenty from what was shoveled off on to us from Victor Wierwille's teachings and the fallout from his emotionally deficient subculture that was and has been woefully lacking in terms of logic.

I would wonder (out loud, but in no way solicit a response from you) if what helped you decide to leave the cult was more emotionally based than the deficiencies in logic.

Also, I have come upon a hunch that you and I may have been, for a long time, friends on FB but perhaps are no longer.

If that's the case, I still feel bad for having offended you, but am hopeful that both you and I will emerge more hopeful in this life. 

Decisions not only mine are based upon some blend of logic and emotion.  I guess the exact makeup of both would be different for me than you.

I have never been friends with you on social media that I am aware of.  

Thx for the response.  Different views to me aren’t offensive.  

14 hours ago, Rocky said:

The answer lies within your own mind, does it not?

How do YOU define paradox? Do you have any tolerance for paradox?

from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

• noun A statement that seems to contradict itself but may nonetheless be true.
• noun A person, thing, or situation that exhibits inexplicable or contradictory aspects.
• noun A statement that is self-contradictory or logically untenable, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.

How much tolerance for ambiguity can you muster? 

Ambiguity tolerance is a fancy term for “operating in the gray.” It reflects an ability to accept unclear, uncertain, or novel situations and work effectively in this environment.

I hope your ambiguity tolerance is growing. 

I find “ambiguity tolerance” and flipping like a Teflon waffle iron between two opposite positions as different things. 

My lack of “ambiguity tolerance” helped to define what was improper about the Ways teachings on debt and “the household” and most of what they try to dissect from Corinthians.  It also helped me form the requisite logic that I could leave and stake my future on.

But you do you.

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

 

Another synonym for “telling stories” is “lying” in the sense of being untruthful and replacing a truthful story with a fictional or imagined story.