chockfull
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Posts posted by chockfull
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On 4/5/2018 at 1:56 PM, Twinky said:
Okay, Krys, let's see if this works:
Yep, looks good. There will be a thread somewhere here where Steve discussed this topic, and that's why he posted this paper.
Reviewing this again. My comments are the topic of the trinity within the context of theologians outside of the TWI sphere of influence is complex and nuanced.
VPW dumbed it down to a single linear plane view that contains none of these nuances. Then he attacked that perceived Trinity definition with very shoddy explanations for any seeming contradictions. And published a book with a confrontational title.
30 years later followers of the Way, splinter groups, and ex members pretty much still buy into his logic. Arrogant and prideful they elevate themselves above their brothers and sisters in Christ and have made up more perversions of scripture calling Christs body which spans all Christians in I Corinthians as inessential and “household” as the defining boundary around functional Christianity.
The true intent of those inventing these perversions is personal gain and control. By these false doctrines they draw away followers of Jesus Christ and isolate them away from other Christians and control them.
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On 8/21/2023 at 9:48 PM, cman said:
Like when he came back from India, why didn't he teach some of the eastern religion stuff. Something must have happened there that turned him against the eastern religions.
He was too busy with creative writing magnifying his trip. First he had to do the key to the city story, then he had to make up the account like Jesus of the man with the withered hand on the train. After that he had to publish his attack on the denominations outreach work in 3rd world countries. After that he had to start a ministry ahead of any disciplinary board convened to talk about his paper and his affair with his secretary.
He was just too busy of a guy to teach all the orientalist culture stuff. Besides he could just get Bishop Pillai to do all that work and steal it.
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23 hours ago, Rocky said:
Is not the topic of cults inherently related to the characteristics of and interaction of social animals (humans), groups, and that of leaders?
Why would you not be interested in imagining, or exploring evolution of cults, social animals, groups, and leadership? Just asking.
Didn’t say I wasn’t interested in the topic just that it’s off topic and to discuss it on a new thread.
You acknowledged in a subsequent post but all posters didn’t read that.
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1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Chock, I think you’ve proposed TWI is very similar to JW. I see it now. Oh, do I see it!
I’ve been reading threads here https://reddit.com/r/exjw/s/DyxZAxIuy3. From the org structure to the ever-morphing, doctrinal bulls hit to the manipulative control, it’s uncanny!
Terminology is slightly different, but the meanings and implications are exactly the same.
Just so sad, gross and stupid.
The crisis of cult - religious, ideological, political, national - is the single greatest existential threat to mankind. IMO
I find certain characteristics of different cults remind me of TWI. The whole Plaffy witnessing running classes to me reminds me of the JWs and their dogged determination to “witness” meaning putting a watchtower pub in someone's hands or referring someone to JW.org that seems pretty similar.
The Mormons have all their positions as voluntary like bishops and Q70 or Q12 but demand the tithe out of followers. That to me is similar to the Way how they handle staffing and money.
The Way Corps to me seems a lot like Scientology’s Sea Org. A billion year commitment to making the world “clear”. Using people paying them nothing shuffling them around doing the bidding of LRH or Miscavidge.
So to me The Way seems like a blend of a number of cult tactics and characteristics. Like a cult souffle.
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20 hours ago, penworks said:
In case you missed it, here's today's post on my blog - a 2-for-1 book review:
Reviews: 'Undertow' and 'The Cult That Snapped' | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)
Cheers to Karl Kahler, my fellow writer on things pertaining to The Way! He rocks!
I enjoyed reading the reviews on Undertow. And the interaction with Karl.
Thanks.
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19 hours ago, Rocky said:
1) Because humans are inherently social animals.
2) The older you and I get, we are indeed more comfortable and secure in our own skins. Is that because we have FOUND our "tribe?" Those with whom we most relate and from whom we receive/give the most mutual support? I think, maybe.
Also, I read something a few days about about the prevalence of organisms, from individual cells to individuals, to colonies, to populations functioning more naturally together, than independently. If I can find that piece, I'll share it here.
And I certainly DO agree it's something important to pay attention to.
Good perhaps if it is important to pay attention to you should start a thread on that topic
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On 9/23/2023 at 5:58 PM, Rocky said:
Israeli historian (his nationality, not the focus of his research) Yuval Noah Harari, apparently in his book Homo Deus, posits the notion of collective imagination. My current understanding of Victor Wierwille's ministry and organization approaches it as a very definite collective imagination which many of us embraced FOR A TIME.
Based on the book 'Homo Deus' by Yuval Noah Harari (also author of Sapiens), this video explores the potential futures of humanity through the rise of humanism, the crisis of liberalism, and the emergence of god-like beings and dataism. Key topics covered include: How humanism replaced religion in modern society The flaws underlying liberal values like free will and the self Scenarios where AI renders many humans economically useless The prospect of a small elite upgrading to become god-like superhumans Dataism as a new techno-religion valuing information flow Reflections on finding meaning in life and imagination as our superpower Watch this video to understand the historical patterns shaping our possible futures and how we can prepare for the challenges ahead.
https://youtu.be/Ucewn8J5fJA?si=rDqrY9U2RUIZXgUn How close are we to [becoming?] Homo Deus?
This thread is on the book Undertow it is not on the book Homo Deus
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17 hours ago, Rocky said:
Ants predate humans by hundreds of millions of years. They have evolved with ways to avoid many of the conflicts we humans still struggle with.
I hope it won't take humanity that long to figure out how to solve such problems/conflicts.
This thread is about cults and their similarity of operation to TWI.
It is not about ants or the struggle of humanity as a broad topic. Please keep comments on topic.
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22 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:
To to all posters.
This is the atheist forum and this particular thread is about raising children as atheists. Please do not go
All right spongebob. I'm out. Talk to yourself
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18 hours ago, Rocky said:
Reiterating STL's gentle request regarding you again seeming to think you (might) know what's going on inside my head.
In case you would like to actually know, you could start that other thread as STL so gently requested, and ask me for clarification. In which case, I would simply add that it is my understanding that it is NOT contrary to GSC rules to DISAGREE with points you make, positions you take, claims you state. If YOU feel attacked, that's something YOU might do or feel, not something I do to you.
Ok if it's not against GSC terms to pick at my posts and you will not agree to any modifications of your approach then I guess GSC is going to read a lot of me telling you what I think of that approach.
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13 hours ago, Rocky said:
Why would you believe you have a right to demand or expect obedience or compliance or anything else from anyone?
As I understand it, that's not how life works.
Whether or not I am authentic is not something, from my perspective, that's at all dependent on whether I ever meet your expectations.
In case you MIGHT be interested, here's a gentle reminder of something someone important to me shared recently on FB. If you're not interested, by all means, disregard it.
"When someone is at war with themselves, it will be very hard for them to be peaceful with you. Remember that."
If you want "real connection" with me, you've been going about it all wrong.
As far as what I want, from you or anyone else, is to honor emotional boundaries. I can't expect if from you by demanding it of you. I am NOT trying to woo or control or influence or manipulate you for ANY kind of relationship.
As I DID say to you recently, you and I have NO relationship of any kind that would cause me to want to manipulate you for any reason. My wholeness (emotional or otherwise) is in no way dependent on you or anyone else, either here or IRL.
Calm down. Nobody is demanding anything. I was answering a question directly. Your post does seem to reflect what you have quoted in bold pretty well. The reason you would manipulate would be within yourself nothing to do with me at all.
It might have to do with the stats showing you have 14,000 plus posts when nobody else has even half that many.
I have noticed and did mention this to you that whenever the frequency of my posting increases so does the frequency of you correcting, contradicting or attacking my posts basically. So maybe your perceived status on this site threatened or I don’t even care enough to need to know why. I just know when the behavior occurs I am not caving in to it any more.
I was speaking in general terms regarding why I would care.
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13 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Well, I said there were two groups: the willfully ignorant AND the DUPED intent on believing inaccuracy into accuracy. My mistake was to say ONLY, so, yeah, that should be challenged. Fair enough.
The blissfully ignorant are easily duped.
When I was a teenager and love bombed by the WOWs I was 100% blissfully ignorant. I would have to say over time and conditioning that turned into willful ignorance.
Those two categories 100% still exist today.
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8 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:
You are going
with your comments. Please start a thread dealing with your concerns.
I have no concerns to need to start a new thread. I was answering a direct question. Or maybe a rhetorical one depending on how it was presented 100%. If that triggers you then maybe you should ask yourself why.
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7 hours ago, Rocky said:
Why would I? Why would you care?
Because it would be a real response that could have personal insight in the subject matter. The more authentic you are the more you are believable.
Why I would care is that as an introvert I desire real connection and fake or inauthentic connection is irritating to me.
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10 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:
Atheists make better parents because they do not have their children do things out of fear of being punished by a god. Only do things because it is the right thing to do.
https://www.indy100.com/news/atheists-make-better-parents-parenting-study-research-7627036
My struggle with mine was avoiding the bondage that a fundamentalist Christian view brings and avoiding cult negative other impact.
Looking back I’m sure I could have been a better parent. I keep talking to my kids though so it’s not over yet.
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On 10/4/2023 at 10:23 PM, Rocky said:
From Washington Post, today October 3, 2023: (all readers are able to read the rest of this WaPo essay for no charge because I subscribe by clicking the link)
I like to say that my kids made me an atheist. But really what they did was make me honest.
I was raised Jewish — with Sabbath prayers and religious school, a bat mitzvah and a Jewish wedding. But I don’t remember ever truly believing that God was out there listening to me sing songs of praise.
I thought of God as a human invention: a character, a concept, a carry-over from an ancient time.
I thought of him as a fiction.
Today I realize that means I’m an atheist. It’s not complicated. My (non)belief derives naturally from a few basic observations:
- The Greek myths are obviously stories. The Norse myths are obviously stories. L. Ron Hubbard obviously made that stuff up. Extrapolate.
- The holy books underpinning some of the bigger theistic religions are riddled with “facts” now disproved by science and “morality” now disavowed by modern adherents. Extrapolate.
- Life is confusing and death is scary. Naturally, humans want to believe that someone capable is in charge and that we continue to live after we die. But wanting doesn’t make it so.
- Child rape. War. Etc.
And yet, when I was younger, I would never have called myself an atheist — not on a survey, not to my family, not even to myself.
So after rereading some of all this your post here comes off like this is your personal story that was published in a paper. It took reading through a couple times to determine that is not the case.
Your personal backstory which people can find on this site is you went through a contentious divorce heavily negatively influenced by the Way and relations to your one child were strained but now are healed over.
Did you have any detail to comment on this topic from your personal story?
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3 hours ago, penworks said:
I hope you're right about current leadership. But I think they have an uphill battle "covering up VPs faults," since there are hundreds of people who can testify to his narcissism, sexual abuse, plagiarism, and other "faults." Some of us speak out.
Also, there are countless families with parents from my generation (I was in the Way Corps 1971-73) whose grown children who even have children of their own now, are questioning VPW's teachings. They are turning away from how they were raised to follow VPW's ideology. They are jumping ship and rocking the boat. I hear from them regularly.
So, while many of my generation are busy running offshoot-groups or at least continuing to brainwash their kids with VPW's plagiarized bible teachings and derived mumbo jumbo, this next generation is beginning to wake up and leave. They might derail TWI outreach to the extent that it dies out by the time their kids are grown. Or not. Fundamentalist bible cults attract vulnerable people who want easy "answers" in a confusing world.
But bad and disconcerting news gets around ... and often makes people stop and think.
Yeah that’s how the BOD gets their cardio. Whitewashing uphill.
I mean doubling down on his material has to be the most illogical choice of all the possible choices available. I mean Rico at least has new class names. From what I hear though the content is all basically derived from our common root and even has quirky personal traits similar to how VP had all of those things that people would copy like “Thots right” in a low tone voice. Homiletics and plagiarism.
Yes GenZ is not filling up the empty seats in the auditorium for sure they are used to questioning more which is a good thing. I see hope for the future in my kids but they make similar mistakes to me when young. That’s another reason to distance from cults. I don’t need a generational repeat complete with shunning.
I hope bad news gets around - I mean the public news cycle is very negative. But they get info directly from police blotters and FOIA requests and don’t have a BOD getting cardio by whitewashing uphill obscuring much of the story.
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16 hours ago, penworks said:
First question: answer is NO.
Second question: answer is YES. Even up until she died.
With some victims it is possible that maintaining some form of rationalization for the past actions is necessary for them not to experience a psychotic break.
I am sorry for what happened to her and the extremity of what was necessary to live with it.
I look at the Nexim cult as to the extremity of what goes on with manipulation and control in the sex categories. TWI will have varying degrees of that going on, or at least did in the past.
I don’t think the current leadership acts that way but they are heavily invested in covering up VPs faults there because they have doubled down on his class PFAL Today.
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Just now, Rocky said:
I don't wish to continue bickering with you at this time. Are you willing to leave it at that?
I feel like you pick at me to the point you can no longer logically defend your posts, then you bail.
Leave it wherever you want to.
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Just now, Rocky said:
No more than yours was.
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4 minutes ago, Rocky said:
It's NOT about YOU. That's all I'm going to explain about it at this time.
Not everything you (might) take personally is actually about you.
Oh so you CAN’T explain how your statement fulfills the characteristics of an “I” statement?
Interesting…
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This is an “I” statement. It is totally not about Rocky and Stayed. Did you know gaslighting and lying are kissing cousins?
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13 minutes ago, Rocky said:
Please remember that. It's actually what I statements are ALL about.
Cool. Can you clarify how your post about definition #1 is really an “I” statement? I didn’t read much “I” in it. It was mostly about what you were not saying about me. Plus the gaslighting def #1. The only thing I felt was representative of the post you linked to about the “I” statement was you saying it was an “I” statement. The content was not congruent to me.
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20 minutes ago, Rocky said:
Respectfully, on this thread, I don't find anywhere that I apologized to you for anything. I suppose you disagree with that. If so, please point it out, specifically.
Thank you.
I wish you nothing but health and happiness, all your days. (this is NOT related to anything I may have said that you believe contradicts what I said herein).
What causes me to scratch my head is that your words seem to be saying (what you believe) is going on inside my head. Please clarify how you may have come to search out and determine what's going on between my ears. Thank you.
Yes the post was not on this thread but another. So? I suppose you could search for “apologize” and find it quickly. It may only appear once or twice in your 14,000 post history.
Thanks for the well wishes.
I don’t know what is going on inside your head. Just what you post.
another post card from twi
in About The Way
Posted
Yes I can confirm the email list blast on this postcard. And that they aren’t sending me one lol.
Interesting. They are keeping the history of the ministry accurate with their depictions I see. What do they want to portray? The FBus with PFlappy on the side.
Do I want to be part of the “movement”? You know the Christian movement where they steal classes act like rock stars and drug and have sex with groupies on a tour bus?
Sounds like a movement for leisure suit Larry boomers
I’ll pass.