chockfull

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Thanks. I'm curious about the cultural impact of the three highlighted books, if anyone has any info or anecdotes.

Again, I'm NOT inviting political discussion. Just remembrances or documents. Thanks. 

Btw, I have -- in my Kindle library -- a copy of Dale Carnegie's book. Of course, it was included because (I figure) it's still a major salesmanship book. As well as having in my Kindle library a copy of a collection of Harvard Classics. Various versions of these anthologies can be obtained on Amazon for between $.99 and $4.99. I suspect they were included for general studies purposes.

The first one pretty much alienates Catholics the 3rd largest Christian group.  The second two label TWI as anti Semitic.  So cuts off a large group also.

With incidents I have heard plenty about smug condescending arses at Holocost diaplays museums etc.  People who can’t STF up from spouting their so called expertise on the topic.

Other book list stuff

Starr Dailey - Love Can Open Prison Doors

George Mueller - Autobiography, Release the Power of Prayer

I liked those and didn’t feel they had tainted root material like others.

2 hours ago, cman said:

there is probably a list of books to burn too, a big one

typical nazi propaganda

I think VPs tactic was to silently incorporate some conspiracy theory garbage into his “advanced class materials” that has anti Semite and neo Nazi type thought lines, and leave it as material the “initiated” knew and had access to.  

As far as burn basically “Uncle Harry Day” was celebrated as an annual burn chaff day consisting of theological material, old vinyl which everyone regrets now and other artifacts of various things.  So an annual purge culture with the different programs “what to bring” lists comprising other forced purges.

Definitely has neo Nazi flavor to it.

Babylon Mystery Religion

Thirteenth Tribe

Harvard Classics (I have a set)

Dale Carnegie - How To Win Friends and Influence People, The Art of Public Speaking, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living

The Tracker - Tom Brown Jr

Myth of the Six Million

Luther the Reformer

Foxs Book of Martyrs

The Encyclopedia of Occult Sciences - from Adv Class list

some cr@p on raising kids like training dogs.

Many others on the “Corps Reading list”.  I don’t have a copy of that any more wonder if any do.

13 hours ago, Rocky said:

My IMPRESSION of Jennifer's essay is that she was citing data. I wanted to hear and relate to her STORY.

This TED Talk given in February 2021, by Karen Eber, on how your brain responds to stories, and why they are CRUCIAL (for anyone wanting to get the attention of their readers and listeners).

What do you want to do with your STORY?

I hope you want your stories to matter more than they'd be if they were only facts.

 

Well from the details I’ve read you shouldn’t have to worry.  The girl plans to only leave the account up and public for a short period of time.  Who knows, maybe due to online critics?

Again can you please take your push for whatever your agenda is to your own thread?  

I don’t want to do anything with “my story”.  Those who know me and love me know it.  Others hear parts of it.  I really could care less how TED talk says your brain responds to it.  And I have zero desire to make “my story” “matter more”.

i mean start a topical part of the forum for “Creative Writing” or “Memoir Writing” or “Journaling” for chrissake!

“Sand” - Donnie Fugit

one of the few I miss…

I actually think exactly the opposite.  This girl was involved with TWI only 2 years and look at all the detrimental effects she suffered.

That to me speaks so much more loudly than whatever authenticity you think she is missing by including others stories also footnoted.

7 hours ago, Rocky said:

How and why did the author decide to associate with TWI? Who told her what? How did she feel when the first person/people witnessed to her?

That's something that might grasp the attention of a reader.

Each of us here on GSC has her/his/their own story to tell... tell IT.

ok now you have hijacked this thread with 5 posts in a row that the topic is Undertow and writing memoirs including why we should do it.

Can you please go start your own thread with this line of discussion?  Or continue it on the thread entitled “Undertow”?

One post or two is one thing but 5 in a row on a completely separate topic is a hijacking of the thread.

And please think about how you are coming off commenting about those who ARE writing memoirs.

This girl was in TWI for 2 years a relatively short period of time wrote her own story augmented by others notes all footnotes.

Are you celebrating her?  Or has this been more of a page or two containing criticism of how she did it as well as a running line of attack on her story.

7 hours ago, Rocky said:

I've been trying to figure out why this substack doesn't sit right with me.

The way this person wrote it, she is NOT telling HER story.

That won't mean anything to anyone who needs to hear HER STORY.

Her story might help people needing to escape the cult or wise up before they get caught up in it.

This quote is just weak sauce.

WHAT did this human see and hear? Did SHE experience an unwanted pregnancy? If so, how did it make her feel? How did she cope with the emotional and medical ramifications of the pregnancy? What was HER outcome?

Maybe this human writer needs to read some of the work on vulnerability Brené Brown has published.

Btw, a discussion about abortion policies in and of itself is a political topic.

A retelling of history of TWI is retelling of historical events. For them to matter to readers, they have to come off as authentic.

She has a blend of her story plus supporting evidence which consists of others stories all with referenced sources unlike “the collaterals”.

i mean maybe those of you heavily invested in writing memoirs can figure out how to stay in first person and come off “more authentic”.

Rather than be irritated by her switching from first person to third person voice I look at it like at least she did a better job than her “father in da Verd”.

The Way Internationals continual denial of plagiarism claims has karma coming back around to bite them in the butt with accurately footnoted anecdotal accounts of immorality.

24 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Thanks, Cockfull!

A quote from the linked substack:

 It was constantly reinforced that women were inferior in teaching and treatment and we were told not to use any birth control, leading to many unwanted pregnancies. The Way would then support and pay for abortions, which were not a sin according to their teachings.

 

So, abortion is the only form of birth control endorsed by TWI.

What accuracy! What mathematical exactness! What scientific precision!

Mmmph! 

 

(A perfect dovetail with another presently active thread.)

I had a PE coach in HS that told a bunch of us one day that after getting to know us for a semester, he was going to recommend retroactive birth control.  

Now back to regularly scheduled abortion convo.

2 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Victor P. Wierwille! 

The version of this someone sent me yesterday had a claim about it being illegal to quote Way Corps grads. That was a deal breaker for me. But this one, though VERY long appears to not have that claim in it. I appreciate her formatting of Victor's name.

Yes that sounds strange with the “illegal to quote WC grads” thing.  Yet her account references 2 Way Corps examples - Victor Barnard and Steve Sann who I would say examples like that you could experience just about anything there.  It wouldn’t surprise me to see an ultra control freak say that.

Another personal account of damage experienced by a member of TWI.  This person highlights the step by step indoctrination process….

https://jenniferhaha.substack.com/p/black-friday-cyber-monday-cult-expose?utm_campaign=post

9 minutes ago, Ham said:

It seems that others have asked the same question.

 

OMG I’m dying lol.  Help help I’m being repressed.  Oh I so need to watch Monty Python Holy Grail again.

7 hours ago, Raf said:

See, that's my problem. If it's history, it's not credible and the only reason to discuss it is politics.

If we're talking about doctrine, there's really nothing debatable about it. Yeah, God said this land is your land. Doctrinally. But history can't even document the existence of Abraham, never mind God. And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders.

Oh, but THEIR Great Spirit is not God. Got it.

Yeah you start to mix up politics and religion and real estate then you have a real mess.

Or a new tv series idea lol 

With Israel more recent history implies a few warring tribes with conflict dating back a thousand years.  It’s just one of them has nukes and Western support.

Native Americans rather than having the Great Spirit define their living boundaries have instead had a cruel government dictate them, and ensure generational poverty by giving them an acre of land and a crappy model home.  Alaskan natives fared better with their deals with the government happening much later.  They own a piece of the oil pipeline and are rich.  So many native corporations now are winning government contract bids in many different areas.

I can’t do a thing about the Israel conflict all I can do is keep a good relationship with my own neighbors and pray and hope for the best.

Thanks for posting up the prevalent views in the topic guys.

You know if TWI leadership actually had an honest heart before God they would not be shunning us here they would be celebrating us.  

Their followers are too scared of being shunned to tell them the truth.  We are not.  We tell them the truth whether they want to whitewash it or not.  Whether they want to kill the messenger or not.

But they hate the truth.  They love their positions and adulation.  They love having articles about how great they are in public magazines broadcast to the few that will cave in to be under their thumb.

With the greater independent thought of the youth in todays world that is less and less people all the time.

Send out another postcard run.  Tell yourself how that is moving “the Word” over the world.  At least the Gideons place something of use in public that someone can open, read, pray to God with.  Not a hype postcard.

I can see the court interaction now.  
 

“That site is inaccurate and slanderous”.

Judge:  “Every statement on the website has a footnoted source.  Which is more than you can say for your main class PFAL”

Lol

I ran across this article in Psych Today talking about “nostalgia bias” where people attach to and recollect only positive things about their past.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/checkpoints/202302/exploring-nostalgia-bias

I wonder if nostalgia bias is what keeps many of these people who have been abused by TWI hanging around and pushing for better times.

Nostalgia bias would be a huge reason behind the modern TWI push of going back to PFAL and back to the “Word Over the World” messaging.  Taking items from the highest participation period in the cults history the strategic approach is to make the Way “feel” like the good ole days in the hippie times where people were strumming guitars in parks and witnessing and thousands were “taking the class”.

 Nostalgia bias can keep people hanging around doing the same things sending in the same checks listening to the same stories obeying the same dictators.  It can keep people only reading the same “collaterals” for decades without ever considering new and better sources.

I actually am opposed to the nostalgia bias making my life’s decisions and want to and am purposefully crafting my future in the direction best for me, my family, my peace of mind, and my spiritual development outside the constrained inputs from a cult.

That is quite a website.  It looks like a similar layout for a number of different cults.

I have no idea who put it up.  It looks like it was done with a bot or LLM tool.  For every claim they state they cite a source.  So even if some of the claims seem exaggerated they literally have a source where a leader or account verifies the statement.

This type of activity is a great counter to the whitewash movement.  With sources for everything it is protected legally as well as it shows what really occurred as opposed to a leaders spin on what occurred.

In other words, this website is a great model for TWI where they could learn about footnotes, bibliographies, and other modern methods in the publishing and academic industries.  You know, the things missing from all of VPs “research”.  

The website also with footnotes make it harder for the TWI leadership to deny claims and justify actions.

Every claim made is substantiated by a footnote.

Wow, what an earth shattering idea.

6 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I wish they’d knock on my door. If only I could believe big enough, they would.

Some have claimed all you need to say to a Jay Dub is, “I’ve been disfellowshipped.” Apparently, it’s like kryptonite to Superman, or like a question to victor paul wierwille.

Anyone have experience with this tactic?


“What’s the best way to get a JW to leave you alone?”

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/XROxSUO8D2

 

 

I have relatives that are J dubs.  There’s a number of things you can do - ask if that’s the group of false prophets that can’t tell who is anointed and have missed Jesus return date about 10 times…

Talk about SIT they think it’s of the devil.

Whatever you say though never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever take one of their Watchtower publications, Awake magazines or whatever they hand you.  Just a heads up.

10 hours ago, So_crates said:

A woman in her 40s just came to my door and started to pitch knowledge in the bible.

"Ma'am, I'm going to save you a lot of time," I told her. "I'm not interested in joining church."

"This isn't for a church," she said, "we're just sharing what we know from the bible." She started back into her pitch pointing to the tract she had.

"Ma'am, I was with The Way International for the better part of my life."

At that point she said "Okay", terminated the conversation and went on her way to the next house.

Could she have been with The Way?

It's the abrupt termination that makes me wonder.

It’s hard to tell with those details.  What was the tract she was holding?  Was it from some organization?

I always answer the door with Mormon missionaries by saying “oh I see you gentlemen are out looking for some help with your tie selection.”  
 

On 11/12/2023 at 6:48 PM, Ham said:

I dunno.  I like a simpler answer of about 3 seconds.. maybe because God still loves me.. heh.  Doesn't give me pretty much any other of a choice.. heh.

I’m with you on this.  My faith message needs to be short enough so I don’t get lost explaining it.

I’m getting to her testimony but dear baby Jesus on a pogo stick they have more “woke” labels starting out that podcast than I can even concentrate on.  Hopefully that won’t obscure her message.

Well she seems to talk all around the topic as opposed to addressing the commonly held definitions of Christianity.

Jesus and John Wayne seems to attack the male image in religion - the topic seems more “wokism” than “faith” regardless of the truth of male dominated organizations.

I agree with her sentiments on feeling the need to prove her background and views especially labels like “Calvinist”.  

Christianity to me is from the heart and judged by God not some kind of 90 page questionnaire checking boxes on aligned theology.

She has good advice on having a thick skin if you are going to explore your faith in an online community.  Lol.

Christianity with a non Fundamentalist view is very different to all of us raised in Fundamentalist teachings.  We expect an exact answer to everything when that is not realistic and is not life.  

She talks about her circle of influence and keeping them valuable and positive.  She talks about her church - Reformed Christian not Evangelical Christian - that can help differentiate and navigate common modern organizations.  She has her niche and her circle of friends.  That is good.  

I get really lost trying to place her inner faith message with all of the modern and woke labels and descriptions.

Accepting variances of views in other Christians while still working with them praying with them interacting and doing ministry work with them to me is the crux of all the teachings on one body of Christ which TWI has missed for decades generations and most of their lifetimes.

5 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Someone made a comment on another board that permitted a feeling of hope in me, but it was fleeting. 

He said that English doesn't have a third person command like Greek. This was his reason for the translation "Let there be light" in Genesis, (which was written in Hebrew).

His comment gathered no traction. Credit goes to all the other posters for ignoring him.

Sounds exactly like something victor would say, but there might be a kernel in this idea. A tremendous kernel. I'm open, but remain unconvinced.

Ok this is stirring up remembering some language studies.  The point I remember was the imperative voice in verbs.  It is in koine Greek where Jesus does the Lord’s Prayer throughout all those verbs.  I don’t think the equivalent exists in Hebrew or Aramaic.

I don’t know if that equates to a passive voice in “let there be light”.  Maybe so.  Would Zeus say “Light” as a command?

I don’t have a burning need to make all the jigsaw puzzles fit.  I view the OT as primitive times technology wise and ethics wise.  So I accept the dichotomy of vision.

19 hours ago, Ham said:

In a practical sense religions either hate or reject me because that I view the individuals involved at the very least.. as equals.  I am not inferior to you..

 

the last religion at my door threatened me with the most eternal fire and wrath that their religion might have to offer.. heh

 

some here have dealt with this..

 

 

 

 

This is why I love the wizard of Oz.  It shows the little person behind the large act.

17 hours ago, Raf said:

I disagree.

1. Who is that author? What are his credentials? Where did he study? What are his sources? We genuinely have NO IDEA. Amazon tells us nothing.

He does have a website. Doesn't she'd much light. He's a Trinitarian, so that rules out a Wierwille clone. Still could have had some intersection with TWI. But not enough to render a verdict either way [technically, that's a not guilty, but I'd go with a hung jury].

2. This is one guy. You said referenceS. Plural. But can you find another one that's clearly not TWI influenced? I couldn't. I tried, and came up with the same guy.

Others clearly have TWI fingerprints.

I mean, it's a Bullinger doctrine. Surely TWI didn't originate it.

 

 

Sure.  Here’s a Voice of Elijah website discussing it.

https://www.voiceofelijah.org/questions-and-answers/what-is-a-hebrew-idiom.html#:~:text=A Hebrew idiom is the,words that comprise the idiom.
 

That describes more of the general pattern of Hebrew idioms.  Some of these seem to have apostolic roots which is Pentecostal.

Pretty different from TWI and Bullinger.

I would present the idea that it is a common way to explain violent acts of God in the OT.

And that it represents nothing more than not giving criminals press time.  While telling a story of a sovereign God.

Perhaps the catch phrase “idiom of permission” itself was a Bullinger classification.  But not the idea.

I get some value from Bullingers figures of speech.  And from Darbys lists.  And from Josephus cultural accounts.

I am sure Bullinger would have excommunicated VPW from whatever denomination he was part of for using his works in a way he didn’t intend.  If they lived in the same time.