RachelYsrael

How can you tell that it was an honest question? How can you tell the Pharisee's question wasn't honest? I guess you just call it like you see it, and so do I. And by the way - I didn't say if I thought he was sincere or not. And you know what they say about sincerity. (It is still good) Rachel

I believe I said I hope the tempting was not intentional. I was not accusing you of starting ..... That being said, the context here was divorce. Which is why I posted verse 3. I think you took it somewhere else mentally Cman - Here is your question: "Are some of these passages really speaking of marriage or man and woman as being separate people, or are they speaking of the soul?" I responded the way I did because it is obvious that, Yes - It is REALLY speaking of marriage. By you leaving out verse 3, the whole thing is skewered. The Pharisees were not tempting him with the SUBJECT at hand - They wanted to see if He would disagree with what Moses wrote about DIVORCE. Jesus said it was not so from the beginning - There was no divorce in the beginning, and Moses took it upon himself to allow it, but it was not allowed by God. You asked 3 questions actually, and the second and third are not relevant in light of the scriptures used to validate your question. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned you tempting people. In the context of the verses you chose, there is no answer to your 2nd and 3rd question, because Jesus was talking about marriage, and divorce. Which was not so in the beginning. And should not be so now. When a man and woman are joined together, to God that's it. Romans 7 gives a very good example about this - If a woman marries and divorces and marries again, she and the man she gets with are adulterers, unless and until her first husband is dead. Now, this is in the epstles - and it confirms The Law - thou shalt not commit adultary. From the beginning, married people are one. RachelIsrael

Pretty slick, Cman. I hope it was not intentional. You just did the same thing to these wonderful patrons of the diner that the Pharisees did to Jesus... Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? As you can see in verse 3, they were talking SPECIFICALLY about married people - husbands and wives. Jesus makes it clear that when a man and woman are married they are one flesh - The concept is hard to understand in these latter days, but to God married people are one. A unit. A set. Like 2 sides to the same coin. Front and back, heads and tails. Joined at the hip. Rachel

That's pretty good, Cman, but you left of something really important... 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Verse 3 kinda blows the the theory that you don't know when Jesus is coming back out of the water. It comes a thief to those who are not watching. And if you have not been taught (or kick against something you don't agree with) then you are in darkness. The Bible does reveal how to know when Jesus is coming back this next time, but so many people believe the Law (Old Testament) is not important, so they do not read it, nor do they believe that the God of the OT is even the same God as in the NT. There are signs in Daniel, it tells you what to look for, and is also touched on in 2Thess. When you see it, start counting the days. There is a window of time for the people of God to get to safety... Rachel

Here are some things on that Spirit of Man, and I notice that what BJC says is validated here in Eccl. as well as what I say. (See - I admit it when a point other than mine is made ) Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? The writer is talking about death here, and man being no better than an animal in regards to death, for all do it. I am mildly suprised also that in this passage (3:20) it says that all go to one place, dust to dust. But that spirit of man goes upward, while the spirit of beast down... Here is Strong's Upward: H4605 מעל ma‛al mah'-al From H5927; properly the upper part, used only adverbially with prefix upward, above, overhead, from the top, etc.: - above, exceeding (-ly), forward, on (X very) high, over, up (-on, -ward), very. Here is Stong's Downward: H4295 מטּה maṭṭâh mat'-taw From H5786 with directive enclitic appended; downward, below or beneath; often adverbially with or without prefixes: - beneath, down (-ward), less, very low, under (-neath). I don't know what the hell that means comparitively. I think it may mean because a beast is a beast and man a man, the man has more honor than a beast so that spirit goes off into Big Blue, while the beast spirit goes with Great Lord Kimbo, Ruler of the Underworld. I just don't know. But I do know and have a clear understanding of what I do know about them both returning to dust. If you all know more than what it says, great. I will ask Him when I get there what the real deal is actually.Not making light of my ignorance, just stating and acknowledging it.

Does the soul that sins surely die? I am just pointing out biblical usages of the words you all choose to discuss. I have no problem with your beliefs or opinions about them. If the Book says man became a living soul, eight souls were saved by water, and a soul can eat, on and on 453 times re-affirming that the soul is the literal body, that's what I believe. Now, if you want to confuse the spirit that is in man (His will and nature, which is to sin) Then that is something altogether different. And as to Adam being cut off from God after he sinned, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on that. I see God talking to man after the fall - else there would be no book written. What happened to Adam after he sinned was he became mortal. He died. The bible says he died that very day. A day to the Lord is as 1000 years. No man has lived 1000 years - very close but not that long. Man did not lose Holy Spirit, or Adam if you will. If you read the account of the sons of God in the gospel, there is a clear line from Adam to Jesus. Now Cain was cut off. After the the flood there are no more decednants from him. But God continued to talk with Adam and his progeny until this day. What was lost in the fall was the ability RIGHT THEN to live forever. We still have that ability, if we live the way the Lord directs, we will be rewarded. The Genesis story says God put the man out of the Garden of Eden so that he would not become like them, and live forever. He (God) Put cheribums to guard the Tree of Life, right? Now this is interesting because the Tree of Life shows up again in Revelation. What Adam lost the right to in Genesis is resored in Revelation, which was always the Will of God - For man to become as God is. Rachel

Helloooo.... One the thread Are the Dead Alive Now there was a discussion about what the soul is. I read some very interseting comments about what people think the soul is, and I wanted to share what the Bible says about it. I know that many, when referring to "soul" consider it to be an essence or some other intangible thing, but as you all know about me by now, I am really into what the Bible says about stuff, so I want to share with you all some verses about the soul, and soul life. I have come to believe the way teaching on three-fold man - Body, Soul and Spirit - is up there with the earth being flat and the moon being made of cheese. I understand the reasoning behind the soul as the essence of man, and I believe that to be self-awareness, consciousness - The knowledge of ourselves. The thing that "They" say makes us better than an animal. (As I think about this, I realize it may be the knowledge that we die). Anyway, here it is Gang... Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Here is the first usage of soul in the Book. Adam had no life in him, then God breathed into him and he became a Living Soul, as opposed to a dead one. Gen 34:2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her. Gen 34:3 And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel. In this second example, Shecem had sex with Dinah. It says his SOUL clave to her. And it did, when they were getting it on...Clave literally means to cling to and stick together with.(Yummy) Lev 7:20 But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people. In this last example, it says a soul can eat...It also says if a soul eats a sacrifice while being unclean would be cut off from his people. Literally that means to be expelled from the city. Now, I have absolutely no issue with the opinion that that the soul is seperate from the body, part of the so called 3-fold being. If folks believe that - Great. But it is not biblical. The Bible does not teach that the soul is somehow seperate from the body. It teaches that the soul is the body. There are 453 usages of soul, and 98% of them read like these 3 examples. I think Roy cited a verse where Jesus said (Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. I see that in this verse 2 different words are used for body and soul, and they do not mean the same thing. After really looking at this, I think (I may be wrong) that someone can literally kill your physical body, but not what you stand for - Your HEART, whether it be good or evil. Don't fear man. But rather fear God Almighty, because he can kill your body, raise you up and put you in the Lake of Fire or the Kingdom of God with your essence - What you stand for, whether it be Good or Evil. The word for soul in Matthew is the same word used here for heart: Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; And here for mind: Act 14:2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. So, while Jesus referred to the soul in Matthew 10 as something distinct from the body, I don't think it was talking about something seperate from the living person or in the case of "mind" but a will to do something, whether it be good or evil. I want you all to know I really enjoy the Cafe and all of the diners. Peace, Rachel

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ROY!!! LOOK AT THIS, OK? LOOK HARD AT IT.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. If I am reading this right, it says when God FORMED man from the dust of the ground, right? Then He breathed into him the breath of life, and THEN he became a LIVING soul. I do not read anymore into this, but you may feel free to believe whatever you choose. Have at it. If you will take the time to research the word soul in the bible, you will see that it is talking about a literal body. You have to make your own choices on this - I have made mine. In RachelWorld, Soul=Body. Amen and Amen. Rachel

I believe I have offered my opinion on spirit as well. If not, then here it is. There are 2 types of bodies. The first is earthy, from the earth. (Adam - Soul) The second is a spirit body. What Jesus got when He was raised from the dead. What we will get at the Ressurection. A new, Born Again Body. As to the spirit that is in man - it is breath life (I believe)Roy. Roy Roy Roy. It's the...Eye of the Tiger...... Hope that covers it for you, Roy. Rachel

OK Gang, I will give a reply, addressing everything you want addressed. I BELIEVE... There is a Ressurection - Actually I believe there are 2 Ressurections but I will keep this simple. I believe that when a soul (Body) dies it is dead. Literally and Figuratively. I am very specific about the soul - Man Became a Living Soul, right? So, what was he before that? Dirt, Right? The Bible says in Genesis Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. So I believe when a soul(body) dies it goes back to what ADAM was before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Did Adam have conscienceness before that? I don't think so. I believe the EXACT same thing happens to Man (Adama) when it dies. No consienceness. But at the Ressurection(s) all that a dead soul(body) was will be revived - almost like that original Adam the first time, just like Jesus at His ressurection. He was dead, no thought in his head those 3 days he was dead. That is what I believe. And to the folks RUNNING to I and 2nd Peter, watch the word "when" about when Jesus went and preached to those spirits in prison. I clearly says he did this when the ark was preparing - being built. So There. Rachel

It's pretty simple for me, Roy. I believe the Bible. By your own admission, you don't. Let's leave it there, Roy. Rachel

Here'e the thing about that, Oak. When I said go get ONE dead person, I mean it. Not something conjured, now. So because of the putrification factor, let's say they can't be dead more than 48 hours. Get one of those dead up, and talking' buddy. See what they say. Have words, breath, air...Ooops. If they are breathin' then they aren't dead. Damn. O well. Try it anyway, can't be too hard to find some newly dead soul (Body) Rachel (Just Clownin Around>>>>>Rachel does the Snake dance like Chris Tucker idn Rush Hour )

I have made no claims, Oak...Stated no position. Haven't said one time in this thread "I think". The bible says the dead know not anything. They have no knowledge of NOTHIN. If the Bible is true, I have to go with that. It's not my postition, you see. I just shared a few verses ya know.... Rachel

Why dont you go find ONE dead person and see what they say about it. Go ahead, I'll wait... Rachel

The Bible is very clear on dead folks - It says they are dead. They don't know anything, because they return to the ground they came from. Dust thou art and to dust thou shall return... Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Their memory is forgotten because they are dead, they don't have memory anymore. Here's another one... Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Hi Chuck, I think what you are doing now is called REPENTANCE. Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Psa 38:17 For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me. Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin. 2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter. Chuck, folks don't like to acknowlege the 10 commandments, but the law reveals sin - "I had not KNOWN SIN, except the law said thou shall not covet... 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. The 10 Commandments tell you what sin is - Keep them to the best of your ability. Don't lie, steal, have sex with married women. Fear God and Him only. Breaking the 10 commandments is what sin is. I hate that traditional christian teaching says we are not under the law, but then they tell you not to sin and live godly - If you don't know what GOD says sin is, how can you do that? RachelYsrael

Leviticus 4 1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: 3If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering. Hebrews - 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. There are 2 types of sin - Sin with right intentions -In ignorance, and sin on prpos because you feel like it. Please note that the animal sacrifice is offered for a sin. Now that Jesus died, we do not offer animals anymore, but we do still sin., right? Jesus took the place of the animal.

The church I study with now believes there are 2 ways to blaspeme the Holy Spirit. The first is to say something about God that is not true - Take His Name In Vain. Like saying God loves everybody. The God in the Bible is very specific about who He loves, and it does not include everybody all the time. (I know - God so loved the world. But then the person makes a decision to believe or not) So, to lie on Him is blasphemy. The 2nd way is to commit a sin that you can't get forgiveness for. The Law calls it to sin wilfully...As does the Testimony. If you sin on purpose, there is nothing left but a certain firey judgment. That also is blasphemy. The key to forgiveness is repentence, but if someone TRULY sins ON PURPOSE (Hope I never find out anything about it personally) then they cannot repent, because it was willful in the first place. The Psalms are full of what is going to happen to these people in the (Near) future. Hope this adds a different spin on it - I like to give folks something totally innovative and yet so simple to consider. RachelYsrael (I have been deathly ill with flu then pnuemonia)

Step 1: I am powerless over ______________________and only a power greater than myself can...

I love this website. I have lurked here for years, and posted just as long. I can't remeber what the thread was where I told someone that we come here because we are familiar with it. We/I am comfortable here. I got into the way in 1984. I remeber right before a wonderful lady named Cathy Tateo witnessed to me I started having very dark and bad nightmares. Eventually it got to the point where I was afraid to go to sleep. I was 24 years old, living with my Mom, and I tried to sleep with her because the dreams were so bad. When I met Cathy, she tells me about twig. Shealso talks to me about Jesus, and closes our first coversation with something to the effect that if I come to twig with her I will sleep better. This floored me, and I still don't know what to make of that. She could have been operating real HS manifestations or she could have had familiar spirits like John Edward, hell, I just don't know, nor do I care. I read the posts that talk about how F*%ed up VPW was, and how LCM was a bastard, and God knows the truth. Horrible things happened to people. Around 1988, I started feeling VERY SORRY for the people I twigged with. Most of them were from another state. There wasn't very many people native to the Bay Area that stuck around. There were classes going on all the time, but the locals weren't down for it long-term. So what we had was hundreds of people in Oakland, Hayward, Alameda and accross the Bay that were nomads. I think this contributed to much of the sexual disfunction. I am so glad I escaped it, but I know everybody was screwing everybody. My then husband had affairs with at least 4 women that I knew about, maybe more. It was really sad to watch and realize that these people had no where to go. I remember after twig on Sunday everyone would just hang out at someone's house till bedtime. I think I escaped it all because my family was in Berkeley and I could go home. I was so naive back then. I really believed what was taught in the PFAL class. Over the years I have asked myself some hard questions, and I am confident that I made correct choices concerning the so-called ministry. I know now how low-down the so-called MOG were. I also know there were Real Men that really loved God and tried to be Bible Men. They really tried, or at least that is what I saw. I remember a man named Phillip Bannadies. He was a real inspiration. And Jim Stutz, God rest his soul. I believe they loved God and the Word. I know Phil is still plugging away at it somewhere on the coast of CA. It seems so sad to me, to find out it was all a lie. But you know what? I learned about God. I learned to trust him, and a real hard lesson was learning not to trust men. I saw firsthand how God will give men a reprobate mind, and I saw men whose consciences had been seared with a hot iron. While I know now how absolutely F*$#*D up the whole thing was, I am thankful for it. I am thankful that Paw (I think it's him) put this site together, where we can still come and hang out with each other. I often wonder if the way was so drastically wrong, and most the folks that come here came out of the way, how screwed up are you/we? Have we learned anything about honestly, love, compassion, forgiveness and how to treat people? The chanced that men and women here slept with others that weren't their spouses, that someone here terrorized someone else and pretty strong. So when we all talk about VPW and LCM, it stands to reason some of us did as we were taught. And I hope we have learned something - to not treat people that way anymore. Peace, RachelYsrael Remember. Remember. Remember. I can spell it right if I try really hard.

I would love to participate, but. I don't know what you are talking about. Please start from scratch and tell me what it is you want to know, here in this new thread. Rachel

I am pleased that I have received a bit of approval from you... These are just random insights I have picked up through my journey through the Bible. If you all want to discuss, that's great. I share them in the spirit in which I received them - Pure unfeigned joy and delight. I post not to see how many will agree or not. I am posting because I love the Word. Hope you all enjoy as much as I. And I would like to hear your opinions on these jewels. Thanks for your response, BJC. Rachel

I want the Elf Bowling game as well. Please semd it to me, too. Thanks!! Rachel I want the Elf Bowling game as well. Please semd it to me, too. Thanks!! Rachel