Brushstroke

Rofl! If I didn't know he was a fat guy I would have thought his chin was a beard.

First of all pond, I really do wish you wouldn't make your posts in pieces like that. It's kind of annoying. No offense. And even though I don't really like your tone (maybe you don't mean to sound angry but you come off like that), I agree with what you are saying here. :) ~ Phil

Whether you are attaining that knowledge through study/following a teacher or through your own personal meditation, both methods reduce Christianity to nothing but an intellectual discourse either with a book, with another person, or with yourself. Practical application of head-knowledge isn't Christianity. In Christianity truth or knowledge is not a philosophical concept nor is it a theory, a teaching, or a system, but rather, it is Christ Himself (John 14:6). Before Christ men could only conjecture about the Truth since they did not possess it. With Christ the eternally complete divine Truth enters into the world. For this reason the Gospel says: "Truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17). I think that if TWI followers believe they have knowledge and truth because of some sort of practical method of studying the Bible and applying its' principles to their lives/applying principles for further study, or because of some sort of immutable law (the Law of Believing) then they're either guilty of bibliolatry and putting the Bible (the "wonderful matchless Word") above Christ, or they're guilty of bowing down to a law and it is then the law that guides their lives, not grace. Christ is the Word of God, not the Bible. The Bible is God's word in that it is inspired by Him. It's a record of God's ultimate revelation to mankind and is a collection of scriptures inspired by God that are to be a guidebook for the Church, it is the book of the Church, but not His Word (Gk. "Logos") and should never be spoken as such. But I'm rambling again. Sorry if I got off topic. :blink: Even as someone who's going into psychology and understands to a degree the reasons why and how people can be brainwashed, it still baffles me. I agree, thank God! ~ Phil

Penguin, about the visit; read this: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=17162 And thank you for checking. PM me if you can find out who they are. :)

Any possibility one of you could PM me the names of the Branch and Region Coordinators for TWI in Arkansas/northwest Arkansas? Thanks.

Wow, nice job at getting pi$$ed off over nothing, pond. You completely misunderstood what I was trying to say. We are not to be as children with no knowledge, but we should not become confident and prideful in our knowledge. And we certainly should not become like children in the idea that everything we ask will come true, like it's all some sort of magical power. That's just foolish. That very idea is what TWI emphasizes, however, in their Law of Believing. Groups like TWI as well emphasize knowledge of the Bible or understanding this concept or comprehending that concept, etc. It's the same philosophy as Gnosticism, which leads to a person being puffed up in their own knowledge. It's almost as if attaining knowledge or gnosis becomes the goal of the Christian life, and not a relationship with God. But even if we do have knowledge (which we should have), we should become like children and humbly admit that we will never fully know. Azrienoch's video is an attack on the theory of innatism. This view, held primarily by Steven Pinker and Noam Chomsky, holds that children are able to comprehend the world around them and have the capacity for language as a part of something handed down through natural selection. To extend this further, we could say the video also symbolizes our own fragile understanding of the world. There is no such thing as an innate understanding of what this object is, or what that concept is, or where such-and-such object came from, when this event happened, etc. Oftentimes, we think as if we do understand and in turn become prideful. I'm not saying a kid is going to be puffed up with pride because he just learned to talk, but by extention of the concept, our understanding or our acquisition of new knowledge makes us prideful. ~ Phil

In all that I have read and heard of TWI, it appears they place a great emphasis on understanding, and knowledge, as if this is the basis of the Christian life -- to study the Bible as I would study my textbooks for my classes. And they claim to have the correct understanding of the Bible! To those that still cling to TWI teaching and philosophy, as well as to those that don't, I have something from my good friend Jeff, who calls himself "azrienoch": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9r6EWxxLfE When we try to understand and comprehend, we often find that we don't understand or comprehend. When we try to see or envision, we often don't. When we simply look, observe, and take in what we are looking at without thought, we find that understanding and insight comes naturally. So for those of you who claim to understand, who search for truth through your own insight, who study so diligently and who so virulently work to gain knowledge as Wierwille did: all your efforts to attain knowledge are in vain. Why bother wanting to know so much, when you can become like a child as Christ commanded and know so little, and be at peace? The understanding that you will never understand is much more liberating. Just a little food for thought...:) ~ Phil

This is nothing about TWI. Well, it turns out that I'm not going to Virginia to see Stephanie in May. A trip in June--a family reunion in South Padre, TX--has come up and I won't be able to get time off from work for both. Of course, family comes first, especially with my dad having just got out of the hospital. This trip to Texas is really important to him. In a way, I'm kind of glad this happened. My happiness about the outcome of this is nothing related to TWI, but rather to the fact that she and I were going too fast with this "relationship" if you could even call it that. So right now we're not sure when we're going to meet, and we're not sure what we should consider ourselves, if anything. Just very close friends, I guess, and we're both perfectly fine with that. This next college semester starts for both of us on August 25th, so it'll probably be sometime before the 25th but within that month, that we'll meet. So with all of this, including TWI, what will be, will be, I guess. ~ Phil

This is very true. The New Testament that we have today was not fully realized until the third century, and even then there were some small disputes here and there. But overall, the majority of the 27 books we have as the New Testament today were agreed upon and used by Christians by the middle of the third century. It's said that Origen, one of early church fathers, gives us a clear 27 book New Testament pretty much exactly as we have it today by the early 200s. I think the earliest record we have of any set order is from Irenaeus in the second century, and that list is only of the four Gospels. ...and to add to that: Gematria is the numerology of the Hebrew language, not Greek or Aramaic. I don't get it. TWI is so concerned about biblical research that you'd think they'd do a bit more searching into the history around it. So then you wouldn't have these problems of thinking the Bible as we know it always existed in some strange way.

A few of my favorites:

Do I really sound like I'm 48? Rofl! I'm just eloquent my speech, geez. O_o And what about a bad keystroke? lol

Yes! The only way to truly understand your belief system is to question it and see why others disagree. It's all about opening your mind, gaining mutual understanding, and seeing something from a different angle. Of course, despite being open-minded one should always keep hold of his own convictions. And I completely agree, there are many things that remain a mystery, and they should rightly stay that way. We can never know everything. It's one of the things I love about Eastern Orthodoxy--we're not afraid of saying "I don't know." And...what is this about cows? :blink: You know, I never really thought about contacting him. Thanks!

This would be a very good idea. I know there's "Actual Errors in PFAL" but that only seems to deal with basic doctrinal statements that are in contrast with orthodox Christianity and with Wierwille's plagiarism and his misunderstanding of the Greek language. It would be nice to have all of the information in one place. To have something much more comprehensive, like a catechism of some sort, that goes into things like the very ethos of the ministry and its' leaders and TWI's distraught history, with a biblical response or something from TWI documents to support each statement. Perhaps also something, within this guide, could be thought of that would be a helpful psychological guide for both Wayfers and ex-Wayfers to find ways to think for themselves and stop relying on TWI jargon and doctrine.

So in a nutshell, this piece of Session #7 is saying that we should not rely on our own knowledge and reason, but trust TWI's knowledge and reason because it's directed by God? Argumentum ad verecundiam, it sounds like. Ahh...gotta love logical fallacies.

Waysider, Then I wonder if there is a way I could speak with them on their own terms. The Apostle Paul, when he would preach as recorded in Acts, always referred to the knowledge that his hearers already had, and he would expand on what they already knew. To the Jews, for instance, he would often relate to their knowledge of the Scriptures and the Law of Moses, saying that Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and proved from the Scriptures how He is of the bloodline of King David. To the Gentile worshipers in Athens, he used one of their own altars to proclaim Christ. Any thoughts? ~Phil Hah, yes Jeff, I really am 18.

I often find myself asking questions about my faith, whether they be religious/spiritual questions relating to Christianity in particular, or philosophical questions relating to the existence of God or to His supposed attributes and actions in general. Or I find myself putting myself in the place of a follower of a different religion or the place of an agnostic or atheist, and play their role in what they would say, what their objections would be to my arguments for or against a certain subject, etc. It sounds kind of funny, I know. But it's a good thing to question. It strengthens your faith and you learn something new about your faith as a result. :) Does anyone else do this? ~Phil

I don't have much to say, other than that there is a lot of truth in what you've said here. Kudos. ~Phil

That's what I said when I Googled 'Victor Paul Wierwille' and went to the site one time. :blink: And look at the picture of all the people on the top of the page. Is it just me or is the guy wearing the turban a little out of place? lol

Yeah, I can definitely see the boredom aspect. It seems to me that people would just get bored with all this dry ideology of trying to understand something through human searching. I know I would. TWI calls itself a research and teaching ministry dedicated to finding the accuracy of the Bible. Research, accuracy, teaching...where is the relationship with God? Where is the mystery? Love is the greatest mystery of all and it is at the very heart of Christianity. It's incomprehensible, and to say that we can have some sort of special knowledge of God or to say that we're completely right and we have the full truth through our fallible human eyes is nothing but pride. Even though I believe Christianity is the truth that God's revealed to us, I think it's merely a reflection of a far greater truth that is beyond all comprehension, but at the same time is able to be experienced and felt. That is the excitement of Christianity! Knowing the unknowable but still realizing that you will never fully know; a continual searching and finding of the Truth that never gets old because it has no end. But I'm rambling. I'll shut up now. ~Phil

So, if I were to ask Steph's mother what happened when Martindale was in power, what kind of a response would I get? :blink: Good point... :(

What you've said here is very telling. It reminds me of a time when I spoke to Stephanie's mom, and she mentioned her beliefs and "the ministry." As she talked about it, by the tone of her voice I definitely sensed complacency, but at the same time I felt she was guilty about something. I didn't say anything, just went "Mhm" and "Oh, ok." Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I feel that when Steph's mom and dad were in the ministry back in the old days, they were happy with it and they truly believed it, and they still do. She knew Wierwille quite well before he died in 1985. I'm not sure about the implications of that friendship between her and Wierwille, but maybe she thought he was truly a man of God and she just followed the ministry without knowledge of the inside information. Perhaps she and Steph's dad never left because TWI brings them peace and comfort, maybe they're somewhat scared to leave, and maybe they've been in it so long that it's just a thing they believe and do and that's all there is to it. I don't know...but I do know what I sensed in her voice from that conversation with her on the phone. From a psychological perspective, this mindset is characteristic of a member of a cultic organization. It's a structured group, most of whose members demonstrate unquestioning loyalty to a charismatic leader (such as VPW or LCM). The cult leader will usually govern every aspect of the lives of their followers, often threatening those who choose to leave with something like eternal damnation, or in the case of LCM, being outside of the "true household of God." There's usually coercion by leaders to conform to what they say or what everyone else is doing, etc. And usually young people are attracted to these charismatic movements because we're still trying to find ourselves. The recruiter for such a group will often try to sympathize with our concerns and worries and fears in life, and they will tell us that we need to join this group or that organization to help find direction. It's just a part of the human condition to want to find belonging, to want to be with like-minded people. Usually though, the followers will form an unhealthy allegiance to the cult leader or the group itself. Of course TWI is nothing like Jonestown or the Branch Davidians, but the way her mom spoke to me and the way Stephanie tends to speak about her beliefs is very telling. Steph...when we talk about what we believe or something relating to religion...I asked her once to explain to me the Law of Believing in her own words. It was very hard for her, and other times when we've talked about my views of TWI's theology and of Wierwille, she tends to get somewhat defensive. Her defensiveness isn't really very noticeable, but it's there. Hmm...so yeah. Thanks for your post HighWay. I was able to glean a lot out of that. :) ~Phil

So would you say that those who are still in TWI supported Martindale, or did they just tough it out while they knew he was wrong, and were waiting for a better leader? Kind of like what everyone is hoping will happen with president Bush and the current election? lol

It appears that all the documents, on this site and on other sites, that I have read about TWI and its troubling history are from the year 2000 at the latest. Is there anything more recent? Thanks. ~Phil

Paw, even though I haven't been here long, I'd like to thank you for providing GSC. Without this place, without the guidance and insight I've received from you all, I wouldn't have the knowledge of TWI that I do now, and I probably wouldn't have a steady foundation to stand on when I travel to see my girlfriend in May. It's a nice way for me to learn about TWI, and also it's given me an incentive to study even more into my own religious tradition and keep myself grounded. Thank you Paw, and everyone here who has given their time to keep this place running. :)

We should be confident in our faith, yes. But we should never be confident to the point that it leads to pride. I think much of Wierwille's theology leads to this sort of thinking of being so positive and confident that we become prideful of ourselves.