Brushstroke

Hmm... no options for those of us who were never in TWI? Oh well. :)

The very idea that the Ten Commandments are not binding for us today is incorrect. From the mouth of the Lord Himself: He fulfills the Law in Himself, in His words, and in His actions by performing the will of the Father in its entirety, He transgressed none of the precepts of the Law, declaring a perfect fulfillment of the Law, which He has delivered to us---granting righteousness, the goal of the Law, to us. He fulfills the Prophets by both being and carrying out what they foretold. He is the open door that leads to the Father, which was formerly shut under the Law, for all they had were types and shadows in the dark and they could not find the door in in the dark. Of course, that is my perspective as far as theology goes. From a psychological standpoint, saying "Don't follow those old laws...you all are righteous! You're saved! What we don't tell you is that you have to follow our law now!" strikes me as encouraging that loyal, brainwashed, and at times arrogant, attitude that many TWI (and even many ex-TWI) followers have.

Why is the premise as you say? Your statements often confuse me. Why do you always appear to be opposed to any criticism Wierwille or TWI receives? Are you still a member of TWI, oldiesman?

When I started researching TWI a few months ago, I immediately saw these parallels. Not necessarily between Simon and VPW, but between Simon's bargaining and trying to buy the ability to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, et al. But it is interesting that you draw this parallel between Simon Magus and VPW concerning speaking in tongues. The Gnostics, in the states of ecstasy that they tried to maintain in order to escape the body which they considered evil, spoke random pieces of babble that had no meaning. On top of this, one can clearly see the connection between Simon Magus and VPW, two men, each of whom "bewitched the people...giving out that himself was some great one." (Acts 8:9)

That's how it seems to happen with Steph and I too. Of course, I think she's been a bit more forgiving towards me and my questions, but she does tend to get pretty angry when I tell her what I've found here at GSC and numerous other sites that say things about TWI. I have a few threads I've created in the forum above this one, called About The Way. Take a look at them to get a good idea of where TWI stands on a lot of things. It'll help you understand (sort of understand, anyway...I find some of it to be gibberish) where they're coming from. ~ Phil

No kidding about no one knowing what they're talking about! As an outsider, when I hear Steph or my friend Brian talk about it or when I read things here, I'm thinking in my head "Wait, repeat that. What do you mean by that? That doesn't make sense." There's never explanations to concepts like the Bible interpreting itself, what "the Word" is, or what classifies as "needs" and what classifies as "wants" or even an explanation of what a "needs and wants parallel" is.

Hm, okay. What is the basis for the belief in a non-sentient pre-resurrection state of the soul? No apology needed. But, what do you mean by "perfect" humanity? After this, I hope we can get back on the main topic. We've derailed this thread enough. :) ~ Phil

The connections between Gnosticism and TWI are seen more in a closer examination of Gnostic philosophy, and not necessarily in a cursory observation of the theology of both TWI and Gnosticism. Mainly, the roots in Gnosticism come from TWI's insistence not on faith in Christ, but rather on gaining more knowledge about the Bible, God (their perception of God, anyway), Christ, and history. TWI is all about "research and teaching." Sure, there is the fellowship with one another, but the very existence and execution of the various classes implies an emphasis on attaining intellectual knowledge which is seen as having a freeing effect, as one becomes a member of the "one true household", rather than a relationship with God being the focal point. Also, as in branches of Protestantism, TWI denies the doctrine of the future physical resurrection of the body, believing that the body is merely a "shell" for the soul. This doesn't necessarily mean that Protestants and Wayfers believe that matter is bad or evil as in Gnostic thought, but I have heard language in Protestant thought that implies a certain ambivalence toward the flesh, the material, and the body, as opposed to the spiritual, the immaterial, and the soul. Also, the 16th century Protestant Reformers, especially John Calvin, emphasized St. Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin so much, that merely being a human was considered sinful in and of itself. They did see Jesus' death as atoning for sin, but only in an antinomian fashion. Justification for the Reformers was merely a forensic declaration of innocence that did not correlate with the ontological state of man, and any attempt to do "works of the Law" mired one in an impossible quest for "works righteousness." Truly, in Protestant thought, and by extension TWI thought, salvation is seen as a legal contract between the believer and God. Like Marcion, an early Gnostic (some would say proto-Gnostic) teacher, they preferred St. Paul to any other biblical author, and wanted to marginalize -- if not eliminate -- Jesus' moralistic teachings and the Epistle of St. James. Like the Gnostics and some modern-day Protestants, TWI insists that liturgical rites such as the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Rite to which I belong, or the Latin Rite Mass are abominations, relics and shrines as too carnal and focused too much on the material, works of art as distracting from true spirituality, and the whole sacramental system as just another form of paganism, believing that ritual is unnecessary and is worshiping God "in vain" in the case of the Protestants, or in the case of Gnostics--not through rituals which impart grace (rituals are only initiatory in Gnosticism) but rather on the reception and comprehension of special knowledge, or gnosis. Even personal spirituality in TWI is very "Gnostic." Speaking In Tongues or "SIT", essentially a form of self-hypnosis as I have heard it described by many members here at GSC, is quite similar to the practices of various Gnostic groups who would attempt to reach trance-like states in order to create a feeling of disassociation of the "good, spiritual, immaterial" soul, from the "evil, fleshly, material" body. ~ Phil P.S. George: What exactly are your theological views? You appear to support TWI doctrine, even after having left. Maybe I'm completely incorrect in that notion, but I'm curious as to what your standpoint is on a lot of things, after conversing with you in my thread entitled "Relationship with God" and this one.

I very much agree, Yanagisawa. As one who was never involved with TWI, I find much terminology in TWI, even terms used in other more mainstream Christian groups, like "the Word of God" to have a strikingly different meaning in TWI language and usage. This is why, often when I speak with my friend who is involved in TWI, about TWI, I have to ask her to explain a certain term because the way she's using it doesn't make any sense. Honestly, to me, most of what TWI says about how "the Word of God is the Will of God" or "believing equals receiving" or "the Renewed Mind is the key to the Power of Christ in me" or even a simple term like "holy spirit", are pieces of mindless babble which require further explanation. And at that, not even the explanations make sense in light of Christian orthodoxy, let alone standing by themselves. In this way, along with many others, I find elements of the ancient belief system known as Gnosticism deeply ingrained in TWI doxis and praxis.

Well yes, that is true, morals and beliefs determine how one will act in the world. That's an axiom in psychology and sociology. And again, I agree that "faith without works is dead," as St. James puts it. This refers not necessarily to God's promises per se, but it is a refutation of a mere intellectual belief, or head-knowledge. If you truly believe in Christ, in His teachings, in His life, miracles, death, resurrection--in Christianity, then that will reflect how you live your life and whether you truly do strive to be as Christ-like as possible. But God's promises that we will persevere through trials, and St. Paul's admonition that we are "more than conquerors" through Christ (Rom. 8:37)...these just come as a part of living out one's faith. Wierwille, in my humble opinion, focused too much on God's promises for our lives (some of which TWI simply made up) and on positive thinking, that he forgot what comes before confidence: healing the damaged soul, and he tried to take the place of the One who heals us: Christ. He put the cart before the horse.

Thank you for clarifying. :) "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb. 4:14-16) Yes, we should have a faith and confidence that He will help us in our time of need. Well-stated, I agree that we should boldly come to our merciful Lord and High Priest in times of need. What I have read of the Law of Believing, however, is that it applies not just to what one needs but also to whatever one might want in life. God is faithful to His promises, and we should expect Him to fulfill His promises to help us in this life. But again, this is not what I have read of TWI's belief regarding "expecting" God to fulfill His promises. From what I have read, TWI thought appears to use the word "expect" in a conditional sense. It's as if one were saying to God, "If you scratch my back I'll scratch yours." 1. I agree, it is very out-of-bounds. 2. Actually George, in VPW's own book, The Bible Tells Me So, he states, and I quote: "our lives are molded by our believing...This law is further explained and proved in "The Law of Believing" so that we will become aware of our own thinking and then be able to control our thinking so as to manifest the abundant life which is promised in God's Word." According to Wierwille, it is up to the believer to manifest a life of abundance and prosperity in his own life. This is no different than The Secret. Sure, you may have to know God's will, but it's still all on you. It's entirely dependent upon your own works and not at all on faith in the grace of God. 3. I agree. :)

My idea of God is quite transcendent in some ways, but I do agree with you that we can know God and can have a relationship with Him, we know that He loves us and that He wants the best for humanity and wants us to keep His commandments. But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.

Well if our prayers happen to line up with God's desires, then all is good and well. But often times, they don't. In fact much of the time things happen that are completely not what we expected from Him, but we are thankful anyway because He has helped us. He's so much larger than we are, and we are so small. For one to blatantly declare that he has knowledge of the ways of God is, in a sense, quite arrogant. "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)

Okay oldiesman. Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term) tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective. Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives. No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours. Another thing I would like to point out: the Law of Believing calls for the believer to have material prosperity, in the belief that this prosperity comes from God. This is no different than what many charismatic and Pentecostal groups, and Joel Osteen, preach: that God wants you to be rich! While this is nice, it's just not biblical. It's like...Christianity Lite. In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of His disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his cross." In support of this alarming prediction, He forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," He asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives. How do Jesus' words not flatly contradict the Law of Believing? And what of the millions of monks and nuns who have renounced the world to seek after God? Are they seeking after their material desires? Hardly.

Well no, there is nothing wrong with going to God for things that you need, but any petition must be done to God in a spirit of humility. The Law of Believing sets in mind that the believer has the power to change God's will by belief that one will get 'X'. It is arrogant to assume that we, mere human mortals, can say to an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God: "This will happen in my life, and You will make it happen as a result of my faith." Now, of course, people don't use exactly these words, or an equivalent, but this self-centered ideology that Christianity is about material prosperity inherently denies the relationship that God wants us to have with Him. Just as He puts humanity before everything else, so believers need to put Him before everything else, even their own lives. What TWI and it's splinter groups don't realize is that Christianity is a sacrifice, a struggle--and so is marriage.

What defines a relationship? I am not talking about strictly a relationship with God, but also a relationship with our friends, spouses, children, relatives, and others. For the sake of the discussion I will speak of a spousal relationship. I am not asking what brings a man and a woman together, I am asking what makes up the relationship, what keeps it going? Being only 19, I've never been married. But I've observed a lot, from my parents, from the relationships I've been in, from friends of mine who have gotten married in the past, and others. The typical wedding vows contain the words "till death do us part." Now, while in my own religious tradition these words are not in the marriage ceremony for a specific reason, there is something that is common to all marriage rites, regardless of religion or sect. This is the hope that the marriage shall last, unto death, and perhaps even after death and into the afterlife. For many religions, it is far more than just the legal contract that it has sadly been turned into today. But how does that marriage last? Some, if not most, would say marriage lasts through the good times that the two have had and even the bad times, and this is all very true, but what is meant by "good times"? Those good times aren't a couple things that happened over the last...20 years or so, for example's sake. You don't really want those sort of things to happen all the time. Spontaneity is good to an extent and there needs to be a degree of this, but those big things aren't what makes it last. It's those little things that both husband and wife do, like that cute little laugh of hers or that certain comment that he always makes about something that she makes for dinner. These aren't surprises, you know they happen and you love it every time they do happen. That kind of thing, that sameness that you never want to go away, is what makes a marriage last. Now, how does this relate to God? I would say it has everything to do with God, at least if we're talking about the Christian God, that TWI supposedly believes in. God does not change (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8, Ja. 1:17), He is not one to change His ways, He doesn't change His love for us, He will always be with us. So, why should we constantly be changing our ways and our conditions for God? This can easily been seen when you look at all the various different denominations and sects of Christianity, and the plethora of worship customs and theological differences between them. But, what do we make of personal spirituality? Those times when you feel enraptured by the "Presence of God" or "Christ in you" or the gift of "the Holy Spirit" or in Wierwillian terms "holy spirit"...whatever you wish to call it. There is a difference between a genuine experience of the Divine, a genuine communication with God that is truly an experience that is the same each time and that you never want to end, and an experience that is marked by disharmony, in telling God what you want Him to do in your life at some particular time. This is the crux of the Law of Believing: Getting what you want. How is that a relationship with God? How can a person so callously use God like some tool to get what he wants, and say he loves Him? This isn't just in TWI, but it's seen throughout human nature. A lot of people, not all, but most, see their relationship with God in a conditional sense. "If God loves me, he'll give me this job I'm hoping for." But then when that person doesn't get that job, he does one of two things: blames God, or simply stops believing, thereby divorcing his "marriage" to God. Yes, the relationship between God and man is, in a symbolic sense, a marriage. We are the Bride of Christ, who is the Bridegroom (Isa. 54:5, 2 Cor. 11:2). I hope we will start acting like it, especially me. What are your thoughts? ~ Phil

Hey Steph. I too am in college and have a friend who's in TWI. Ironically, her name is Steph too. The only difference is that my Steph was raised in TWI. She and I have talked about it a few times, I've cited some things about Wierwille's questionable history and some TWI teachings that contradict scripture, and it's like she gets really angry when I say anything remotely critical of TWI. Be careful, is all I have to say. I know I've had to be careful with what I say. If you just go blabbing off saying "I think this is wrong TWI's a cult!!!" etc etc then she will most certainly try to stay away from you. Just pray that God does His work in her heart to guide her steps, is all I can say. It's what I'm doing for Steph. But feel free PM me if you have any questions. I'd actually like to help out if I can. ~ Phil

A host? This is getting off-topic, but I was wondering if TWI teaches that "devil spirits" or demons can only hurt or influence people if they inhabit or possess a human?

With this video called "The Renewed Mind is the Key" gaining popularity all over the internet, I have to ask, what exactly is the "renewed mind"?

No replies? I wanna see how some people do on this. :)

http://www.inwardhellix.net/ It's an online riddle, and one of the hardest riddles I've ever attempted. I'm on Level 7 of the Main Game and stuck there, but I'm no different than the other 50,000 people who have yet to solve this. According to their site, only 14 people have solved all 60+ riddles and 50,000 are still trying. The object of the game is to find the url that leads to the next riddle. At the end of each link, there's a word followed by the extention ".htm". The answers are usually one word or some two-word phrase. So if the answer was "awesome" I would edit the end of the url to say at the end, "awesome.htm" and press Enter, and that link would take me to the next riddle. It's pretty fun; makes you think. :) I would strongly advise that you carefully read the General Hints and Requirements sections on the main page, and go through the Tutorial. If you don't, you'll have no clue what to do in the Main Game. Good luck! ~ Phil

I'll definitely check this out on Monday. Is that 8:40 am Eastern time?

Download MalwareBytes from www.malwarebytes.org and run a scan with that in Safe Mode. Problem solved. :)

Yeah I noticed this when I was checking out Steph's profile on Facebook. On the group "The Way International", it reads: I love how Laura has to qualify that and say that it's not a cult.

Yups. http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx Is that it?