Dot Matrix

Studio fake? I thought maybe like a windy day would have noise the heat may have been the sound. I never thought of the dead being alive much -- cause of the Way and all -- so to even think about damned souls screaming in Siberia was a new concept for me. OOps I wrote to Dooj and posted when you did

Did any of you listen to the SOUND of people screaming in hell? Do you think it was just "open" mike noise?

I wish I bought a house then-- Stockings have not gone up THAT much....

Geez Rummie For a nice guy you sure play a good meanie. :unsure: Mark - So, you are saying to be tortured forever you have to live forever and therefore have "eternal life" which God does not give anyone but believers. Then would eternal damnation truly just be seperated from God --- by non existance?

I join Rascal in my thanks for Pawtucket!!! Dorian: I do not know if this will help you or someone else reading this. But this almost describes to a "T" the defend-VPW-guy-- http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg54-45.htm Pathology of a false teachers You see we argue about VPW and LCM being wrong/bad/false etc. But those who vehemently defend them and their doctrines -- seems like they TOO become false teachers. Doncha think? And you see what a nutty battle it is to try and "change" their view point to something logical like "facts and witnesses". So, my guess, is your friend is surrounded by people like "you have seen here" splashed across your thread. Again, I would pray for her. I know I will pray for you and her and I bet others will as well. From the site above In Practice "Doting about questions and disputes of words." The Greek text could be translated this way: "Having a sick craving for questions and word battles." They have a disease--a morbid preoccupation with useless questions and word battles. They make a fuss about terminology. The Greek word translated "questions" (z[ma]et[ma]esis, means "idle speculations." It is nothing more than pseudo-intellectual theorizing. They make a fuss about theory instead of the truth of God's Word. So much is written about Scripture from a liberal or neo-orthodox viewpoint. It's easy to get lost in all the verbiage and speculation. Yet all you need to do is accept the plain truth of God's Word. They also get into "disputes of words" (Gk., logomachia, "word battles"). They battle each other over terminology. Their minds know nothing, so they engage themselves in battles over semantics that won't get anywhere. I mean, the above could be the-defend-VPW-guy's resume who posts here. And you mentioned something like you warn her and she says you took the word of "men" and she just KNOWS VPW would not have done those things. Yet, she is listening to what goldfish? No, she herself is listening to men and blowing off testimonies of people who have "been there" reporting the "bad stuff." And if you say "you are listening to men..." She will grab another void point and hold onto that like a pit bull with a steak. Like "he is dead." What does that have to do with the fact that while living he had a big smile hiding a very dark soul. Idiotic stuff like that we get here from the "sold-out" no matter what, loonies. You are not crazy. They become crazy-makers. It is a cult -- this is what cults do.

Ya know I never noticed "we" like that before. Is it a "legion" thing or are they all standing in a group to the right of heavens gate together or something... Boy, that grabs me

Sounds Like it Pond!!!

I do not think it matters as much who Creflo is as what he says. Where is wordwolf? Did the fallen angels have sex with women and produce giants back before Noah? Are the gates of hell a place on earth leading to a place "in" the earth"? The guy Victor Russian dude -- who was he? And could the sound of 2000 degree "belly of the earth" make those kinds of noise? Did anyone ever check the noises to see if it was screams or the roar of heat on a microphone? And even if the tape is not really "hell" Are demons a product of devils having sex with humans? I thought there was emnity put between HIS seed and ours so that would not happen. Waysider - thanks Dooj -- those are my questions as well...

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:)

Here is what some people said -- one is pretty funny http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/archi...hp/t-38234.html

I watch this preacher and .... He said people joke and think there is a “party” or they can handle it…. You can’t Please go to Part three tape #2 – with the sounds of hell. This can be disputed. I just found it interesting – and even if wrong, sobering for some reason…. Part One Part Two (Can't find film) Part Three 1 of 3 2 of 3 (Sounds of hell) 3 of 3- Part Four

Jeff It is nice to read how much you loved your grandpa. I am sorry for your loss.

Oh well, its Easter and I am looking for the death of the old me and the rebirth of the new me (or the real me). The gestation period was only about 30 years!!!! Praise God!!! Happy Easter!!!

The article above surely can be looked into and made into a bad "woman" or a cult --- as well. How about the gal who pretends to like sports, doesn't mind you going golfing, likes wild sex, also enjoys junk food and after you are married, she Hates sports, sex, golf and junk food and said it all to get you -- same stuff, I could make the list longer to make the point, I am not saying that these few things = that. I am merely trying to say the article is about MEN - but woman can be just as awful.Women can steal the dreams out of a man's life as well. And same in a ministry, I mentioned in another thread and will bring it up here. This is what I am learning with my counselor Co-dependency is a treatable illness of lost selfhood. You are not born with it. It is learned behavior from things like being married to an alcoholic, bipolar, sociopath, etc. you learn the “egg shell” walk to avoid explosions, you learn to do certain things to get them to "love" you... etc. Or like being in a cult: If you “submit” you are a “favorite son” if you question you are “the devil”. If you tithe you are “walking with God” if you are not “You are shunned and cold shouldered or yelled at” You hunger for their approval so you stop questioning…you just act in obedient servitude. They supply the drug “approval” and you supply the “worship” they need to function and crave. And when you are starving for them, they enjoy your hunger and the power to supply the “drug” or withhold it. There are different stages of co-dependency: The early stage, where we experiment, such as if we act a certain way TWI leadership or Sociopath responds with love. We are tasting the drug. We want that "good" stuff we saw, it made "me feel good about myself". The middle stage we begin to not always get the response we want so we TRY to please our “source” even more. We now go up and down with their infrequent responses of kindness. We experience hurt and disappointment. Where did the "good feeling" go? What did "I do" to make them stop "loving" me? How can I modify MY behavior to get my "drug" (their approval - love)? We are addicted. Advanced stage with the accumulation of pain and not understanding why we can’t re-experience the “good feelings,” the "source" supplied in the beginning, we can become neurotic in trying to get them to approve of us again. Other addictions spin off and it becomes a full on illness Last stage known as “terminal”(but I still believe behavior modification will save you) we cannot get the “feeling back” we will not listen to our friends and family who suggest this “source” is unhealthy. Our mental health declines and well as physical health can decline. Even here at Greasespot when person after person tells certain posters they need to wake up, it is like an intervention. We have seen many people delivered. We have seen a few where the “intervention” just does not work because they just do not get the “extent” of their addiction. They have not “hit bottom” or cannot see the fact that they are bottom dwellers as they are so engrained in protecting the “source” that their “lives” have shrunk and not expanded. In their small sphere of life the “source” has been protected, the drug is still available and the fact that their life has become "small" is lost on them and they do not see they were robbed of all they could and can be. Biblically TARES among the wheat Matthew 13:24-30 The Parable of the Weeds 24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' 28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " Matthew 13:36-43 The Parable of the Weeds Explained 36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." 37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. According to wikipedia: Tare - Ryegrass (Lolium) is a genus of nine species of tufted grasses, family Poaceae. Lolium temulentum It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", whose ears are light, stands up straight. It parasites wheat fields. The French word for darnel is "ivraie" (from Latin "ebriacus"), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness. I think the "tares" are the sociopaths and that God used symbolism to stand the ages to warn us. Some books if you are interested: Dr. Robert Hare, a recognized authority on psychopaths, has written a book for the lay person called "Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us," as well as a book on psychopaths in the workplace, "Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work." http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF "The mask of sanity"

T and O The False wheat OMG -- They do POISON us and when "drunk" nobody sees correctly! Or you can be addicted to the drunk feeling. Everything God has for us is so big --- even the strength of this parable. Huge!!!

The pastor said the tare looks like us -- is all around us and we do not notice them as they look like wheat. I had previously thought they looked like weeds. I think the look exactly like us "false wheat" is VERY very telling. Like God used symbolism that would stand through the ages because words like "sociopath" were not yet available. I find it remarkable. So, therefore I remarked. ;) smile...

Your heartfelt question led us on a great adventure that really crystallized some answers for you if you were listening, which I believe you were. You saw the nutty application of the "defend" the Way at all costs, including their own "sanity", even when faced with a poster, who logically laid things out, from the perspective of one who has thoroughly known the abuse and tried to expose the illness. You saw how the voice of an injured person was ignored in the heartless rants of a defender. You saw how one person, did not let her open heart go unnoticed, and told NEWLIFE how awful it was that in all of this she lay bleeding and unnoticed. I explained some therapeutic things that have opened up that explanation to the ailments of what has happened, from my adventures in TWI and since. I think this “ride” your heart felt post started is your answer. If your friend is a “sell-out,” as you can see here, there is nothing you can do to help your friend. For even the facts and the truths of ones who “lived” the horror show and have EXPOSED it go unheeded. You heard a little voice say she was abused and ignored. (You shared the abuse stories and have been ignored) And I shared how a therapist and a Doctor explained the “wild ride” of this cult may have taken place in some of our lives. The answer: you know your friend. We do not. We know the monster that took your friend. If your friend is like the one “sell-out” poster who never listens and refuses to believe anything is wrong—then your friend will never see. If your friend is like the poster who saw and tried to help others then that will eventually happen, if your friend is “stuck” in an addiction to not have to change, then they will have to "hit bottom". If and when your friend is READY to repair – God will direct him/her to his repair shop with open arms. And God will place your friend in a loving recovery program he knows will work for your friend. Pretty much, you have done all you can. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. IMO – Pray DorianGreen. Pray for your friend. I think your thread showed you much in the way in answers dear Dorian. Just MHO You are a GOOD friend and his/her success or failure is not on your shoulders -- you ARE a good friend no matter of the final outcome. (I say his/her so anyone reading can get help from your loving trying to help "her" heart) (((Doriangreen))) Like Dorothy in the wizard of Oz --- you had your answer all along dear Dorian.

Kevlar- I LOVE the Camelot reference... WOW Newlife - Sometimes the best thing to do in life is to walk away. I have been in the "repair" shop with God crafting me and removing the broken parts. Anyway, I had a wonderful successful friend and his wife coming to my home. I set out to "REPAIR" things so I would be presentable. I sewed the end of a ripped pillow, I sat with blankets the dogs chewed and tried to fix them in vain. I had throw rugs they had one too may accidents on that had been washed 2000 times that looked so beaten up it was reflective of how I felt. And suddenly, I realized I do not have to FIX everything. I can throw it out and get new stuff. So, I did. And you know it was a small step for man and a giant step for mankind... OOPS wrong line. It was a small thing to do with giant delivering side affects. Somehow, I became NEW as well....

Like you, I WANTED Jesus. I was not into it for future stuff in heaven or money now. I wanted Jesus. I wanted the power of God in my life and to have a relationship with God.

Linda- GREAT story

T- What a declaration of health!! I hope one day we can all post our "recovery" from all of this. A lot of childhood things led some of us to TWI and they capitolized on the cracks. Whatever it takes in a journey to find "self" and health is so cool to read. Thank you. You apparently did not need the "drug" to get your own "high" so to speak. You walked away from the snare!! Great story! I am in "recovery" Not just a "cult" recovery but a choices I made in life which led me to a cult "recovery". I am just exhausted from all the "dancing" I have done. I fought the "snare" and always thought I fought it from a position of outside the "snare". When I woke up, I realized part of my own illusion was I thought I was not caught "IN" the snare. I thought I was helping others get out. When indeed, in my case, I was caught as well. How did I recognize I was in a/the snare? My treatment THERE(TWI) led me to seek out their abusive treatment of me (hot/cold) in every subsequent relationship I had..... I had to recognize I was NOT on the ouside of the snare viewing those who were caught but I was caught, myself, with them. Just a little different trap designed personally for me -- just like each trap is a personal one as well as "standard" in many ways. I was doing the same dance over and over and did not even really KNOW it. One day, one of the wonderful male posters here kept saying, "What do YOU want? Who are you?" I had no answers. I was lost as my anchors were sources "outside" myself. Now, I look within to see what I need to fix IN me and I look "up" to God for direction... Not to a man or organization to let me know what God wants from me -- I go to the "man" himself. That is probably all I can share. I hope it helps some. This is as far as I am in my understanding and recovery.

(((Erkjohn))) Ham... yeah... :)

Among other things to look at my therapist wants me to read the Townsend/Cloud book on Boundaries If it helps anyone, praise God! http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take...r/dp/0310585902 http://www.treatment-centers.net/myblog/al-anon/index.html http://www.amazon.ca/Boundaries-Cloud/dp/0...2731021-6837634 http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/dysfunctional.htm http://www.cloudtownsend.com/

Posters: I admit I have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. I admit I have been tricked and deceived. I am humbly before God asking for direction and healing -- I do not offer you -- YOUR healing. I offer you some of what I am learning about mine. May we each find our way to "health" and to those who are "there" congrats it was not a journey without struggle. I salute you! (In some ways, I am replying to some PM's I got, in this public forum, so I may have things geared to a person who asked something more pointed then to the general reader -- although, I am merely sharing some "release" tools I got from understanding how giving your power to others actually works.) I am relating to you some of what counseling has provided for ME. If you need more “you” specific help, then please go find help. If my general stuff can help you to “self” discovery then Praise God. I am in the "repair shop" myself understanding how I “danced” and why I "danced" to survive "sick" relationships. I am tearing apart my own life to discover WHY I gravitate to people who demand I "dance." ...HOW I get tricked into staying in the situations and how to avoid them in the future. Al-anon is very helpful as well as Celebrate Recovery if you cannot afford private therapy. I am fortunate that my Christian counselor stopped charging me a fee and has taken me on because as she stated, “I see something in you and I believe God wants me to continue seeing you until you find wellness.” Not all things listed in any book/class/org are all me or YOU. They do not define all the “personal” journey, but I can apply the corporate thinking and flush out what being around “sick” people and organizations did to me. These things make the people orbiting around the “ill”--- ill themselves. They are crazy-makers. My goal is to find health, to repair and share my journey, as it may help others. My journey will never be exactly your journey but if we “share things” some may be beneficial – your job, should anyone decide to try a similar path as mine, is to discern out for yourself the “healing” you can apply in your own life and NOT apply the parts that do not apply --- That in itself is a portion of finding “self.” http://www.addictionrecov.org/paradigm/P_PR_SP98/Lavick.html This may help and some parts may apply to your understanding. Some were good for me to read. Some did not apply. But reading the "corporate" writings help me hewn out a personal victory... I did not try and make the unapplicable parts BE my problem because someone else said they might be -- this is a victory. In the co-dependency there are two faces (and varying degrees) on the extreme end, I wanted to bring up, where some/few/many (whatever applies) of us are not as extrmeme in our co-dependency. However: Those who grab onto the “feel good” moment to preserve their “achievements and their grandiose identity”. You are addicted and cling to the “feel good” moment even though those moments are gone and mountains of truth have been provided for any reasonable person to become aware of the monster in the suit. You cling to the “up” moment and fight to stay there. And those wrecked by them who cling to the identity of the victim. “They abused me therefore I get drunk all the time. They abused me therefore I hate God and anyone who mentions his lousy name. I am the way I am because of them.” Yes, you were injured and they gave you MORE things to have to fight through and come back from. But to STAY there you are a sell out to the “down” they provided. Either EXTREME is the violation of “self”. The abused needs to GET HELP as they continue to flounder and with each “excessive drink” or “affair” to pretend you do not hurt. OR outburst against God or “all who believe” is the root of anger, frustration and STILL not having your power back. You want to become an atheist – fine. Do so on your terms not from a position of pain or anger. Do what YOU want after you recover “self.” (Again, this is not a one size fits all. It may apply to some and not to others. If it is not your shoe size, then by all means it is NOT your shoe.) The victim gives it up by refusing to fight for health but rather gains an identity as the “icon of abuse” so they need the "abuse factor" to live on and on to have an excuse for their failures. The “defender” of TWI, despite the reports of abuse and obvious detriment, because they need to preserve their identity of “once being something because they supported the answer, THE way, THE truth holding organization” etc, refuses to "SEE" and continues to defend. You get the point. Both are sick. Waysider: The peace between us was never gone or in jeopardy. Bless