Dot Matrix

Depends. The person may have been a victim then became a participant. Mind you, many people who MOLEST other people were molested themselves. So, if a child is molested by a person who was molested, do we go after the molester three generations back? Or is each molester responsible for their own actions? If you go out and "round people up to present to a molester" then you are participating, IMO. Then, you are to blame even if you started out as a victim. Example: Picture your kids. They tell you they were molested who are you mad at? The person who molested your kid? Or the person in 1920 who molested a kid, who grew to molest a kid, who grew to molest your child? Dot Matrix

Hugs and kisses to you Mr. Bailey! This way of perception has finally helped me to understand the dynamics of the trickery we were in -- what a gooey sticky net we were caught in! Dot Matrix

Thank you! Wanna be a fruit inspector? By their fruit ye shall know them. A lot of the confusion is because PFAL seemed to like some darn good fruit. Now that we know/consider/believe (depending on where you are) the class is another man?s fruit. Let us look at VPW?s fruit?. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them... Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name ... Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.'" (Matthew 7:15-19, 22-23, NIV) Sexual misconduct: Marsha?s story http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm Another one http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_Psexstory.htm Donna?s http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_newwoman.htm Bea http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_tate.htm TJ http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_johnson.htm Plagerism The law of believing was VPW first to teach it in 1,850 years (since the first century?) While Cliffe heads each chapter of Let Go and Let God with a brief Bible verse he does not attempt to prove his teachings with Scripture. Wierwille, on the other hand, attempts to illustrate from Scripture his theory of "believing" thereby "Christianizing" this spiritist's ideas.(12) One thing is sure. Wierwille's source far his teaching on believing was neither the Holy Spirit nor the Word of God, but Albert Cliffe, who spiritually stood far outside the bounds of biblical Christianity http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_lawbelieve.htm Holy Spirit Today http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm Side by side of other author: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_plagstil8.htm Of interest: From "Vesper Chimes" to "The Way International" John Juedes and Douglas Morton. Milwaukee, WI: CARIS, 1983. 78 pp, 254 notes, 4 photos, $3.00 Reviews the founder, history and activities of The Way. Explores Wierwille's claims of hearing God's voice, snowfalls and scholarly education. Includes evidence of VPW's plagiarism and textual changes in his books. Traces VPW's departure from his denomination, sources and evolution of his teaching. Many details on the group's numbers, Corps training, outreach, publications, wealth and locations. Describes sensitive topics like the exodus of top Way leaders and The Way police force. This book won Cornerstone magazine's Book of the Year" (new religion category) award in 1984. All these references go to J Judes site. Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 15, 2003 at 14:53.]

Wooooaaaa, let's pause to wipe the sweat from our brows! To recap -- what does all this mean and keep posting this information! Please! I think the information shared here is relevant to all of our pursuits in truth. We all want to know things like: What happened? Was I in a cult? Was it always a cult? How was I so tricked? Why did the PFAL class deliver me and not the man who taught it? How could the class help me and the man who taught it be so corrupt? How could a ?father in the word? do these perverted things under a Christian heading? On another thread "was it a cult to begin with or become one" has a similar theme as a topic about a year or two ago was "VPW always bad?" (and it was not meant from birth but the conception of TWI) I believe we torment ourselves because we cannot figure out how the class worked for us and yet was taught by such a bad person. So, with our little minds we think "no, the class was good therefore the teacher was good and all rumors are lies" ? or we think "the teacher was an evil liar therefore his class was bad." Or similar things. I contend that there were two ministries at work here. We actual took a class that was VERY VERY similar to BG Leonard?s class. VPW stole the class and marketed as his own God given material, once we understand that happened we can be delivered from the bondage all the above questions generate in our hearts. An example I used was: If I invented a great recipe for "Brownies" and I opened a cooking class. Perhaps, all of you sign up to come. You do not know me, you are going to learn how to make GREAT BROWNIES! As I ready for my class, a weirdo enters and ties me up and puts me in the closet. Then, all of you show up and he uses MY RECIPE to teach you how to make brownies. The brownies would still taste great despite the fact that it is a stolen recipe. You may serve them to others and they may LOVE them. So, you go back to the teacher and ask for some more recipes. But now the food just isn't tasting right and the teacher is very strange. The first batch of brownies that you ate were still GREAT right? Because the brownies came from a different source then the rest of the recipes. TWO different bakers. Two different results. And if you never KNEW I was the original baker who was shoved in a closet and had my recipe stolen, you might wonder how that first stuff was so good and the rest so bad. Years later, you hear I was the person who was suppose to teach you how to bake -- might shed some light on what happened. Then, the Question was TWI always a cult or become one as Fortunate... asked on a different thread, IMO there were two ministries at work. One was a cult from the genesis and the other was not -- the confusion is we were in both simultaneously It is unfortunate but we thought because we took the PFAL class we were apart of TWI. Really, we were a part of BG Leonard?s ministry and did not know it. TWI was a cult from the beginning. BUT we were not all in the cult from the beginning. Some of us were in wonderful fellowships singing sweet songs and seeing God answer prayers because we all took a great class! Although, I took the class via TWI, I was not in a cult until about 5 years later when the dam n corps showed having personal contact with VPW. As Evan pointed out Leonard?s problem was VPW. Guess what? He was our problem as well. *Posted by our Evan: Again, I contend there were TWO ministries at work here. That is what has led us to ?stay too long? ?be confused as to the class and the man who taught it? ?our dedication? ?the problem in reconciling good class with a bad man? and ?some folks undying allegiance to VP and unwillingness to believe the horrible things he did ? how could he the class was so good!? Folks it was NOT his class! Our Father in the word (so to speak) was BG Leonard. That is why the cloud around VPW was so ominous and a complete contradiction from the class and some of the sweet corps-free twigs we had been in. TWI was a cult. The class and the subsequent fellowships were from BG Leonard (and other contributors) were not cults. Kinda sets ya free doesn?t it? Edited for a typo Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 15, 2003 at 16:02.]

PS the de-shed tool is for shorter hair dogs, the boxer, German Sheperd etc. Use a comb and brush on longer hair i.e., Shi-tzu, sheep dog, peke... Not just a brush as it will go right over the mats, but a dog comb! Dot Matrix

Psalmie Not to go in the fridge -- Pull up Canidae and wellness web sites listed above My friend had a cat that was loosing all its fur. I kept tellin' her its the FOOD! Finally, she wnt to an American Vet. Holistic Medicine Doc who told her it was THE FOOD! She has her CAT on WELLNESS for cats and the cat is thriving! Read about it it will blow your mind! OR write me a private topic and I will mail you some info about the things in commercial pet food-- Did you know there is a company who picks up euthanized pets? They take the pets to the commercial dog food companies (although a low percentage) the euthanizing agent does not break down in the food processing. So, your pet eats the euthanizing product? Then, we all wonder why are animals have strange problems and die off sooner? Iams was one of the best -- but they sold their product to another company -- and changed the formula. Dot Matrix

It does have that home grown flavor! When I was reading about their class and books, I would click on the picture thinking it had more info-- it did not. But I will take a guy in a trailer with integrity over a scoundrel in a big house any day! :D--> Dot Matrix

WOW Evan that is compelling! Dot Matrix

Here is another validation of what VP did. I found it on another site: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_newwoman.htm Dot Matrix

Here is more on Stiles and plagerism -- You can read the pages side by side! http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_plagstil8.htm Dot Matrix

I think I will ask him. JJ- was VERY helpful to me when I was "recovering" from TWI. Nicer than any TWI person EVER was (except Ralph D who was a treasure). John J is a very informed loving man. So, if you think he does know, I am going to ask what he knows. I feel like all the pieces are falling into place -- making sense.... The (PFAL) class was a good class -- the man (VP)who ran it not so good. Dot Matrix

WW- I love this in the article as it sums up a lot of what we are saying, although I do not know if John J is aware of how much BG Leonard was also stolen, the act of stealing is addressed: A person better understands the severity of plagiarism when he realizes that plagiarism is both lying and stealing. Ephesians specifically instructs us, "you must put off falsehood" (4:25) and "he who has been stealing must steal no longer" (4:28), while Jesus states that the Adversary is the father of lies. Wierwille stole others' words when he placed them in his books and then lied by placing his own name on the books, asserting that all words in them were his alone. By selling his publications, Wierwille also made money from other men's work. He therefore obtained a degree of prestige and money at others' expense. Many lawsuits initiated by the entertainment industry and business have established that theft of other peoples' words, ideas and work are criminal offenses. Surely Wierwille's extensive plagiarism indicates that he has stolen words and ideas and lied about their source, and even claimed that all his work was orignal. All this demonstrates a lack of integrity. Dr. John P. Juedes (from his site) Dot Matrix

Here is what the Watchman people say (not that I support them at all, just a FYI thing) Some Definitions By using the terms ?cult,? ?occult,? and ?New Age,? Watchman Fellowship is in no way implying that the followers or leaders are necessarily evil or immoral people. It simply means that such groups seem to promote doctrine or practices which may be considered outside the realm of historic Christianity. Cult By its primary dictionary definition, the term cult just means a system of religious beliefs or rituals. It is based on a farming term in Latin meaning cultivation. Sociologists and anthropologists sometimes use the term cult to describe religious structure or belief patterns with meanings (usually non-pejorative) unique to their disciplines. In modern usage, the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous. Thus, cult can describe religious leaders or organizations that employ abusive, manipulative, or illegal control over their followers? lives. In addition to these usages, Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity. Watchman Fellowship usually uses the term cult with a Christian or doctrinal definition in mind. In most cases the group claims to be Christian, but because of their aberrant beliefs on central doctrines of the faith (God, Jesus, and salvation), the organization is not considered by Watchman Fellowship to be part of orthodox, biblical Christianity. Research material and Profile are available. Occult The term, ?occult? comes from the Latin occultus or ?hidden.? Generally the word is used of secret or mysterious supernatural powers or magical, religious rituals. The word ?occult? in this publication is used to describe any attempt to gain supernatural power or knowledge apart from the God of the Bible. Generally it refers to witchcraft, satanism, neo-paganism, or various forms of Psychic discernment (astrology, seances, palm reading, etc.). Research material available. New Age New Age is a recent and developing belief system in North America encompassing thousands of autonomous (and sometime contradictory) beliefs, organizations, and events. Generally the New Age borrows its theology from pantheistic Eastern religions and its practices from 19th century Western occultism. The term ?New Age? is used herein as an umbrella term to describe organizations which seem to exhibit one or more of the following beliefs: (1) All is one, all reality is part of the whole; (2) Everything is God and God is everything; (3) Man is God or a part of God; (4) Man never dies, but continues to live through reincarnation; (5) Man can create his own reality and/or values through transformed consciousness or altered states of consciousness. Research material and Profile are available So, even without the abuse and strange sex doctrines, if TWI's only claim to fame was Jesus is NOT God -- we would still be on this list. (unfair) But because TWI DOES have weird sexual practices, abuses power, lies and is a control freak, we BELONG on the list in my opinion. Dot Matrix

In looking up J E Stiles I found this: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm In the article for those of you seeking Cliff Notes: One of the first times the story is published is in the 25th anniversary booklet. In this version, he doesn't claim that audibly spoke to him: "Father clearly spoke to me one night while I was praying, and He made this promise as He spoke to me: He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century, provided that I would teach what He taught me to others." (Page 9) While Wierwille still makes the audacious claim that he is the only man in 1,850 years to teach the pure Word of God, he didn't claim outright that God's voice was audible. then: However, a few years later Elena Whiteside wrote a book which virtually idolized Wierwille and TWI. In this version, Wierwille insists it was an audible voice: "I was praying.... And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said he would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others" (Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 178). Then: Mrs. Wierwille quotes a version of the audible-voice story in her book Born Again to Serve and adds, "Rev. Wierwille never told anyone of this experience until much later when he was teaching The Way Corps. It was a most astounding phenomenon which he kept to himself" (page 43).It may be that Wierwille found that such stories could easily impress the more impressionable young Corps with such stories of his exploits. Whiteside's book is written in that period and includes other examples of Wierwille exaggerating (even lying about) his background, which greatly impresses Whiteside (see examples in From Vesper Chimes to The Way InternationalBy Juedes & Morton). Plagiarism is serious fraud. It has caused doctoral candidates to be removed from graduate school, journalists to be fired, and public figures to be shamed Then it says: Here we will show that nearly every section of RTHST was stolen from Stiles and Bullinger. RTHST is heavily based on the content, wording, structure, terms and general conclusions of these authors. In fact, Wierwille included every section of Bullinger's book into RTHST in some form, and most every chapter of Stiles is represented as well. If Wierwille had never plagiarized Bullinger and Stiles, his "book" RTHST would be hardly the length of a magazine article. Wierwille never once credited these authors for their work. In fact, he never once mentions their names in RTHST, and never admitted in any other article or book that he used Stiles and Bullinger to compile RTHST. It is clear why he omitted their names-- if he did cite them, it would show that Wierwille's claim to have studied the Bible alone was completely false and fraudulent. Please click on the above site for the chart! Apparently, "we" all come to the same conclusions as here is what someone else wrote about VPW stealing other people's work: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_iplagbooks.htm Here is a description of J E Stiles book on the Holy Spirit. I think I read it was written in six years before VPW'a book (on another site) but I might be mistaken. http://members.tripod.com/~RobertGillette/TONGUES.html Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 14, 2003 at 1:22.]

WOW Evan It is damning to the alleged promise given in 1942. Dot Matrix

Larry - It is VERY gross! I bet your lab would NOT win against the Rottie. Dot Matrix

Rottie Emptying the anal glands is gross. On large dogs it is almost NEVER needed. Big dogs wipe their butt on the ground etc, and it empties the glands. IF you do it, place your thumb and index finger on each side of the anus about two thirds down on the sides, press in a gentle manner. If you feel something like two hard peas then the glands are full. You would press the peas in toward the anus and the smelly gross stuff comes out. (so gross!) Zshot - I hate to do cats, they will rip you up! When I did one, I wanted to go back to my office desk job! Dot Matrix

BowTie- The plum silky is shampoo and conditioner. It is a groomers gallon. You can dilute it about 1 part per 15 parts water. They do have smaller bottles at salons you can call and ask who has it. If you EVER use flea shampoo do not use the insecticide stuff, use Neems - it is very natural. The loop thing is the third picture down - It is a shedding blade. It helps to get out that awful undercoat that sheds all the time! http://preview.jbpet.com/Shopping/category...trippers&Page=1 The information on all grocery store pet food, after all the sites for the premium chow! http://www.canidae.com/ Testimonies: http://www.canidae.com/ Wellness/mother hubbard http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/ http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/dogs/wellness_overview.html Here is a testimony of Wellness http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/dogs/welln...nial_kelly.html About Dog food The Best Food For Your Dog Is... Food. Fresh food. Fresh chicken and turkey and beef. Fresh raw vegetables and fruits. Fresh brown rice and oatmeal. Fresh yogurt, eggs, and cottage cheese. These are not "people foods." Calling fresh food "people food" makes it sound as though people are the only living creatures with the right to fresh foods. All living creatures love fresh foods. Your dog has a keen nose and taste buds. That's why he gets so excited when you take fresh food from the refrigerator. He is not begging for "people food" -- he is simply craving real food and variety, just as you do. Generations of dogs lived to ripe old ages on fresh foods...before pet food corporations came along. Commercial dog food has only been around since the 1930s. Around that time, big cereal companies were trying to find something to do with their rejected grain...their wheat and rice and corn that failed USDA inspection, usually because of mold. They discovered that the meat industry faced the same dilemma. Leftover meat not fit for human consumption, usually because the livestock was diseased. The idea of mixing the rejects together, calling it "pet food", and making big profits off of it, was born. Smart advertising planted this term in the public's mind, but no living creature was ever intended to obtain their nutrition from a bag or can. Almost all artificial diets are based on grains and cereals. The problem is, dogs are not cows. Your dog has a short straight digestive tract meant to digest meat and protein. Grains and cereals are carbohydrates that require a longer digestive tract. Think of a cow's several stomachs and its long, winding digestive tract. Even worse, many dogs are allergic to grains and cereals. They develop chronic digestive problems, or itchy skin characterized by foot-licking or face-rubbing. You might never think to associate these skin problems with the grains and cereals in your dog's artificial diet. Every day, unhappy dogs parade through veterinary offices. They suffer from itchy rashes, hotspots, foot-licking, loose stools, gas, flatulism, greasy coats, flaky skins, constant shedding, chronic digestive upsets. What are these dogs eating? Artificial diet There are two different philosophies of veterinary science. Most vets who belong to the AVMA sell Science Diet. Of course, they received their nutritional training from The Hill's Company...who make Science Diet. Most vets who belong to the AHVMA have done their own independent research and DO NOT recommend artificial diets. Pet food companies and some vets will tell you: "Table scraps are bad for dogs." Now, if they mean hot dogs, bacon, bologna, pizza, french fries, and buttered and salted leftovers, they're right. Such greasy junk is not fresh food. Fresh food means just that. You feed the same food groups that are in artificial diets...except your ingredients have passed USDA inspection and your ingredients are based on meat, not grain. For anyone to apply the derogatory term "table scraps" to your homemade diet of fresh meats and veggies and oatmeal and other wholesome foods is absurd. (of course no onions or chocolate!) Pet food companies and some vets will also tell you: "You won't know how to balance each meal." No animal (or person) needs each and every meal balanced. No living creature eats like that. General balance occurs over weeks or months. The concept of a "complete and balanced diet" is a marketing gimmick to persuade you that you're too dumb to feed a dog. That would come as a shock to your great-grandparents. They had no problems doing it. Their dogs lived 15 to 20 years on meaty bones, vegetable stews, and whole-grain breads. There are plenty of holistic dog recipees on the internet. Or if you do not have the time -- then buy the Canidae or Wellness. It is dry food but it is from holistic human grade food! Dot Matrix

I guess Leonard did NOT believe Jesus was God if he did not believe in the pre-existence of Christ. Looking more and more like PFAL was primarily Leonard's class with a splash of Bullinger! Dot Matrix

Freshair -- AMEN!!!! AMEN!!!! Evan- Cool, I am glad you know this stuff, it is really helpful in sorting out the lies! Thanks again for you kindness and bravery in sharing! Dot Matrix

I can hear that coming from a cuople folks here. There are people that do not want to believe VPW was a bad guy. To them it is like hearing your Father is a louse. So, hopefully they will not post so we can gather all we know about WHERE VP got the information.... It was not his own research. And even if he did a patchwork class of other people's stuff -- He could have said "This class is compiled of other men's work...." Dot Matrix

I got out What a smooth way to cover his sins! But still there is that God promise thing about being taught the word like it was not taught since the First Century -- and yet THERE IT WAS in print -- After the First Century pre-PFAL All I can say is, "Hey VP, Liar Liar pants on Fire!!!!! Oh, and do you really think before getting your DOCTORATE -- you would have never studied Bullinger? Oh yes, VP got his degree from a mail in course and his Doctorate from what appears as the back of a house! http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_ipikepk.htm Dot Matrix

I am a dog groomer now, having gone back to school to enter that industry. People shampoo will dry their coat. The best stuff I found is caled "Plum Silky" the wonderful odor lingers for about a week. www.naturespecialties.com Wash from the head to the tail as the fleas run away from the shampoo. Wash and rinse until the dog smells good. Also you may want to use a tearfree shampoo (for dogs) on the head as it does get in thier eyes. If there are eye goobers in the corners of the eyes, loosen them by a wet lukewarm cloth then you can use a flea comb to pull them off in a direction away from the eye. You can use a cotton ball or a cloth with peroxide or witch hazel to clean your dogs ears. As you are unfamiliar with how far to go with a Q-tip you may want to have your vet show you, although the bent ear canal should prevent you from going too far. Make sure your dog is dry after grooming. Let us go to the begining Buy a shed brush it is a wire thing that looks like a loop and de-shed your dog. Next do the bath until smells clean eye goobers ears Dry with a towel, then you can use a dryer on LOW as low is not as hot and it is not at the noise level as the others. Or get a dog dryer. Make sure he is dry especially with that undercoat! Then, de-shed again! If you are doing any shaving, you want to remove all the hair from the pads of the feet as bacteria may grow there. THen you may want to do a sanitary whuch is around the anus go down between the legs creating a path for any bowel movements. (Never clip into the anus as it can cut it. clip away from.) You can do the nails if your dog will let you, or have your vet show you how the first time. If you DO the nails have styptic powder around incase you quick the nail. You can get a dog grooming tape at the library OR you can ask questions/buy products at Groomers Choice -- products Groomers.com ---- chat Also may I refer you to "Canidae" and "Wellness" dog food. You can look it up on line. It is holistic, human grade meats (in a dry chow) that will help your dog live longer and healthier. Or I will do it for about $50.00 Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 13, 2003 at 15:33.]

Thanks Mandi! Steve- Popeye would have kicked VP's A$$! Trou..wine WOW! And Wow again! I bet Mrs. W. was trying to let us/history know where this stuff came from. Like any good spouse I be she argued with her husband about "stealing" another man's/mens work! Word wolf: Do you have any of Stiles stuff for comparison? I will look again but I did not see anything when I was hunting around the other night. And yeah, he did not even change the names of Maggie and friends -- how arrogant! Olds: I wonder how many people knew how corrupt VPW lay at the root of his ministry and never said anything. I would have been protesting -- but VPW and them were my Dad's generation "the make your bed and lay in it -- take the lumps --cards fall where they may --" thinking. I am the next generation -- If you take my sh it I am going to sue you, let everyone know, put a sign in my yard and you will be sorry generation. HE was such an A$$! Dot Matrix

OH MY GAWD! 88 and Evan: He actually stole Maggie Mullins, Johnny Jumpup and Henry Baloka? (thanks guys for that insight) What a severe A$$! Mandi, I had trouble on the site as well, Thanks! Raf : Good stuff proving again VPW was not taught the word as it had not been taught since the first century as -- there it was PRINTED. Yes Evan - When I read EW's thing on "written for our learning - for us and stuff written to us..." Again, it prooves VPW was not taught by God as it had not been taught since the first Century.... Again: quote: ------------------------------------ * All this refers, of course, only to Interpretation, and not to Application. This will form a chapter by itself when we come to consider the "Words." We may apply all that is written so long as we do so in harmony with what is addressed especially TO us in this Dispensation. All was and is "written for our learning": all is FOR us. But not all is addressed or applies TO us. We must not apply what was true of one Dispensation to upset what is true of another Dispensation. --------------------------------- He just compiled other people's work! And Evan thanks again for your sharing. Dot Matrix