Dot Matrix

This was from another thread where they are heavy into a snow discussion. I was so blown away by Evan's information, I did not want it to get lost in the "snow storm" So, I started this thread. I thought this information might be helpful for those still in -- and for those of us that had trouble separating a great class we took from a bad man. Once you see PFAL was NOT VPW's class I think it will help set people free. I will post some of what has been shared already. Anyone with information on Stiles or more on the originators of the class please enlighten us. Thank you. Information: Posted by Dot: Here is a promise given to BG Leonard -- From Rev. Leonard's foreword to his book GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT: "One day God spoke to me. "If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion." I believed God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude. During those wonderful days, He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit. As He did, these things were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received, and by examining the results in light of His Word." Site: http://ourworld.cs.com/LeonardBG/index.htm While VPW was "borrowing" material do you think he borrowed the power of the promise. He heard this one and made up his? Here is a description under one of his books, does the verbage sound all too familiar to you? quote: CHURCH GOVERNMENT co-authored by Rev. Evelyn Thiele-Leonard. A thorough and incisive study of the God-given ministries in the Church, those of the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, offices and helps, sure to edify and exhort you to the fulfilling of your own God-ordained ministry. And this: quote: POSITIVE PRAYER (co-authored by Rev. Evelyn Thiele-Leonard). Prayer must be positive in order to have results. This book not only teaches on positive prayer, but it also lifts your faith so that you can pray positively. Positive Prayer teaches you to commune with God with Holy Boldness, thus guaranteeing an answer to your prayers. And this is their Foundational Book (similar?): quote: FOUNDATIONS (Co-authored by Rev. Evelyn Thiele-Leonard). Foundations is to the student of Holy Writ what a blueprint is to a construction engineer. It is a veritable slide-rule in the hands of the truth-seeker. It was with full realization of it?s importance, the necessity for it?s existence, and the scope of it?s inherent usefulness that the author, impelled as he was by God?s Spirit, gave birth to this book. We pray that it will be to you a guide of inestimable value in the realm of constructive and exhaustive investigation of divine revelation. Slide rule to the seeker -- Hand in a glove. These are just brief descriptions of some of Mr. Leonard's works. I just wanted to see how similar this stuff really is. I guess it can be argued "so what." I thought it interesting as we are discussing the snow and the promise... I think there is bearing... Here this is on an EW Bullinger site: quote: III. The One Great Requirement of the Word:?"Rightly Dividing" It. iv. Rightly Dividing the Word as to its Dispensational Truth and Teaching. This part of the great Requirement of the Word flows from, and, at the same time, depends upon a thorough understanding of the Times and Dispensations themselves. When these are rightly divided then it will be easy for us to keep the truth pertaining to each quite distinct. There are whole departments of Truth which belong exclusively to one or other of these Dispensations, and not to the rest. If we take a truth which belongs to one Dispensation and interpret it of another it will lead not only to confusion in the mind, to discordance in the Word, and uncertainty as to the truth; but it will lead to disaster in the life. For, if the Word be not understood, there will be no enjoyment in the study of it; consequently, the reading of it will be neglected, and we shall cease to feed upon it; our spiritual strength will grow weak and we shall be unfit for God's service, beside being a misery to ourselves. Not only, therefore, must we rightly divide the Word of truth as to its Times and Dispensations, but as to its Truth and Teaching also: we must learn to appropriate each truth to the particular Dispensation to which it belongs. Unless we do this we shall not "grow in knowledge": for we are to increase in knowledge as well as in "grace" (2 Peter 3:18). To do this we must empty ourselves of all Tradition. We must question all that we have thus received; and be prepared to unlearn what we have previously been taught by man if it does not recognize this great requirement of the Word of truth. If we think we know, it will be impossible for us to learn. If a vessel be full it is impossible for its contents to be increased. We must make room for this blessed increase by continually replacing what we have learnt from man with what we learn from the Lord. And even if what we have learned from man does agree with the Word, then we must be prepared to learn it over again, direct from the Word, so that the Truth may hold us, instead of our holding the Truth. There are six distinct departments in which the truth of the Word has to be rightly divided in order to obtain its Teaching in connection with the Times and Dispensations.* * All this refers, of course, only to Interpretation, and not to Application. This will form a chapter by itself when we come to consider the "Words." We may apply all that is written so long as we do so in harmony with what is addressed especially TO us in this Dispensation. All was and is "written for our learning": all is FOR us. But not all is addressed or applies TO us. We must not apply what was true of one Dispensation to upset what is true of another Dispensation. * All this refers, of course, only to Interpretation, and not to Application. This will form a chapter by itself when we come to consider the "Words." We may apply all that is written so long as we do so in harmony with what is addressed especially TO us in this Dispensation. All was and is "written for our learning": all is FOR us. But not all is addressed or applies TO us. We must not apply what was true of one Dispensation to upset what is true of another Dispensation. In order to keep this Dispensational truth and teaching rightly divided? 1. We must not take Truth belonging to ONE PART of a PAST Dispensation and read it into ANOTHER PART of the PAST. The whole of the four Gospels belongs to the Old Dispensation; to the special period of Time during which the Kingdom was proclaimed and afterward rejected. Truth pertaining to the proclamation period is not truth for the rejection period. (a) For example, in Matthew 10:5, 6, we find the command, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." If the Word is not to be divided at all, rightly or wrongly, as some who oppose our teaching assert, then this command must be still binding on all the Lord's servants. If it belongs to all persons, for all time, and for all times, then it is of universal interpretation. According to this, there ought to be no Missionary Societies for work among the Gentiles; but every Missionary Society should be only for the Jews. But this is not quite the principle which pertains to and governs modern missionary operations. Then there must be something wrong somewhere. Either this command remains in force and modern Missions set it at naught, and are carried on in defiance of it; or, there must be some explanation which shall exonerate such contumacy. If it be said, in defence, that there are later commands, such as "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15); then this is to argue (1) that the Word of God either flatly contradicts itself as to the fundamental principle of the missionary work; or (2) that some division must be made between the two commands. But this latter is all that we are contending for. Only, the division which we would make does not ignore either command, but gives each its own due and proper place, significance, and importance. It does not exalt one at the expense of the other, but assigns to each its own appropriate sphere. The former command, "Go not," etc., was given in connection with the proclamation of the King and the kingdom: but, when both had been rejected, and the King was about to be crucified, then this command was no longer appropriate to the changed circumstances. Another command could then be given, "Go ye," instead of "Go not." Both were equally true. The one was true as to its special reference to the lost sheep of the house of Israel; the other is true as to its general reference to all. But both commands were given in the past Dispensation. http://philologos.org/__eb-htetb/134.htm Bullinger was after the First century so was Leonard and others. All the VPW proclaimations are lies. The cool info he spoke is only cool because it came from OTHER PEOPLE. From Evan: Dot, as regards where Wierwille got the novel idea to have his own unique revelation, you nailed it. To Evan from Dot: Funny, I could not sleep last night. So, for about 6/7 hours I pulled up stuff on cults and the anti-cults(good people).In just the little descriptions offered about Mr. Leonard's books there was a strong thread to the PFAL class we took. Then, the E W Bullinger thing was nearly exactly what was covered in the class... A few different words to protect him from a lawsuit --Look at this Bullinger quote in the light of VPW teaching us about the administrations of time:quote: But it is obvious VPW did not get this stuff from God as the first guy to get it since the First century which is implied in the promise that "it would be taught as it had not been taught since the First Century."And being as BG Leonard started his Holy Spirit Class with his promise from God it falls in line with VP having the need to also have a promise. And what about VP having forgot more about the Holy Spirit Field than you will ever know (I think was the quote after my 33 times in the PFAL class). That is so arrogant as his Holy Spirit work consisted of "borrowing" all of BG Leonard's hard work, shuffling it around and inventing a few miracles to sell it....I know I, and others, have said "well, I am glad I at least took the class as I probably would not have taken it if it was not presented to me via VPW marketing skills." (The lemon to lemonade thinking)I dunno, I am STILL glad I did take the class. Also, for die hard VP fans -- Look, if VPW kept it in his pants, and merely had said something like the following, I would still be in TWI enjoying ROA's each summer and also be a fan. He could have began his class: "Welcome. I am VPW and I have been searching for answers a long time. I was able to compile the following information from reading wonderful writings of a variety of God loving researchers and am humbled to bring you the information..." But we all know what happened instead. From Evan to Dot: ...I say this with the utmost respect for BG's memory, but BG's class was never destined to be offered on a large scale. Leonard was, and I say this affectionately, a bit of a crank. A humble man, a real servant, desiring no creature comforts, no recognition. He was on a mission and was bent on fulfilling it. He was not oriented to disseminating his teachings on a wider basis, wouldn't know how if he wanted. but he was a magnificent teacher with amazing knowledge all over the map. A real rennaisence man. But BG's real problem was Wierwille. You see, BG let Wierwille teach his class, which Wierwille did under the auspices of Leonard's ministry. I even saw the pictures of those 2 classes in some of Leonard's 50's publications...pictures always represented to us as the first two "PFAL classes". This affected BG in an unfortunate way. He became overprotective of his works. He was darned if he's be ripped off again. Pity. I think it could have been revelatory had he simply let go and cast his body of work "on the waters" so to speak. ...All of this adds up for me. His snow job, his wholesale plaigarism, the whole sordid mess, casts such a pall over anything he did I fail to see the value in listening to one word of it. It's hopelessly tainted. PFAL is such an adulterated piece of crap compared to BG's work I think it's hopeless. It has the effect of making the true things VP said in his class untrue, so clouded is every truth with so many falsehoods... [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 12, 2003 at 13:24.]

WOW 88 M.V. turned into a b. i. t.c. h. Dot Matrix

I love this! Dot Matrix

Wow, you handled that call wonderfully! Proud of you! Dot Matrix

Happy B-day! Dot Matrix

THE DIET SUCKS!!!! I did not loose anything and think it is the medication I am on. So, I am NOt a happy camper but thanks for asking Acts2! Congrats to all you people actually loosing weight! Dot Matrix

Al Baby, where ya been? Dot Matrix

Wow Abigail I never thought of that but it could be a possibility. Act2 - You are awfully sweet! Thanks Song remains! Dot Matrix

Hopeful- You get it.... What Ex was saying when she called what VPW did "soul stealing? At first, I did not think what I had to say would add to the picture because not all things ended in rape. But when I considered Ex's title "soul stealing" I thought my God, she is right! I have a lot of examples of that. My last one, I told you all about with the 18 year old he got drunk and "banged". That poor little girl thought he loved her and they were in a "special" relationship. Well, what would you think as a teen? Not yet old enough to vote or drink legally, how could they possibly be able to emotionally or psychologically ever stand up to an OLD man that taught you that Jesus loves you -- merely using you as a faceless vagina. She had to imagine he "loved her." Isn't that sad? When I was on staff at limb we had a college in the state. It was B______g. The girls there were known as Dr.?s B___________g girls. He spoke of them regularly. If anyone is out there or has a friend that is/was one, they can tell you some stories. Here these kids go to college?. Mom and Dad scrape the money together to get them a good education. Maybe they just opened their first checking account, they may still call home to ask Mom in what temperature do you wash white clothes? They may be taking different course to decide ?what they want to be when they grow up.? There are drugs on campus but they don?t really want that lifestyle although they did take a toke off a joint once at a PJ party. They are told about a fellowship where they can learn about the love of God. Some of the kids have gone to church their whole lives and miss the Sunday school days with the family. Others have sought their whole lives to find something concrete and did not find it in church. They go to fellowship and afterwards, VPW and his old man friends invite them to a booze party, get them drunk, and take advantage of them. The next day, some of the girls are in such condemnation they cannot even speak. Others are in a kinda shock as they cannot imagine their minister at home drinking with them and touching them inappropriately, others are thankful for the attention and although they were confused by the God preaching drunk, they can belong to something while away from home. After all, feeling dirty is easier than being scared to death at 18 on a campus away from your family and friends. It is not rape. But it is Soul Stealing. Some of those girls, nearly 25 years later are still plagued by the haunts of the parties. They still picture that drunk old man preaching ?God loves you? as he removed their panties, gave them another drink and told them he would ?meet their needs.? Yeah, everyone needs a pig lying old drunk guy to tell them about Jesus then give them booze (and more) and use them as a faceless vagina. Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 04, 2003 at 17:02.]

They were in ATL - might still be. He was still in TWI in circa 1997 when I ran into him Dot Matrix

Raf You said You are about the most considerate poster I have ever seen! You are really trying to be sensitive to all parties. And you go "all out" if you think you have stepped on any toes. You are a very nice person. Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 04, 2003 at 14:34.]

Ex That was a long article! What do you think about it? While I was reading it, I thought how obvious they were in a cult. Do you think it was that obvious to those we could not get to sign the green card that we were in a cult? Was it that obvious to the outsider? Abi - great post Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 04, 2003 at 14:17.]

Olds I concur, What a thread! (thanks Ex!) Dot Matrix

Laleo wrote to Olds: I am crying my eyes out! I know those believers and they were my good times and the things I miss about TWI 1. Gawd Olds, if that is the guy you were, I miss you people so much. When all the corruption came down and I looked for sanity -- the sweet believer with a heart of Gold is what I longed for, part of the reason I stayed to try and fix TWI and what I wish I saw in people today. I missed you Olds, forgive me for not getting where you were coming from, if you are the Bible sharing, coffee getting, car loaning, love bug I grew to count on in my twigs, or branch etc. I have missed you and I understand how hard this is for you. It is difficult because you are an innocent person who could not "dream up" some of the things VPW did to people in real life. Laleo - thanks! Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 04, 2003 at 7:44.]

I think Charlie is saying some raped women could turn to their church. VPW's victims could not even go to their minister as HE was the offending party. do I have it Charlie? Dot Matrix

Thanks Alfacat - yeah butt... thanks Thanks Laleo. My posts are true if they are powerful that makes it worth any rebutal. Thanks Raf- your support has been wonderful. Ex- I know none of this was your fault with that dumba ss Weirwille! Long Gone - Great posts Olds - I am glad you are listening Lindy - thanks! Abagail -thanks to you too! Orange Cat - Bless your little orange self! QQ - great posts Great insight -- everyone! ____________________________ Olds: Another story. A young girl, early corps, I believe she was 18 years old at the time... VPW got her drinking and had sex with her. She thought they had a beautiful special relationship. They had a special place where they would meet and have sex. She convinced herself that he loved her even though he got her drunk to "get her" the first time. (I guess it was the only way she could handle it) One day, she went to their meeting place thinking the MOG of the world LOVED her and there she saw him having sex with her best friend another 18 year old girl. There were glasses and empty booze bottles laying around. She froze in the door and then realized he was not in love with her as her little mind had reconciled VPW's actions. He got her drunk and used her, then he played with her emotions to continue to have sex with an 18 year old little girl. It can be argued that she wanted it as she went back. But who at 18 years old thinks their old man minister is going to get them drunk and sleep with them? So, she thought he loved her. She was 18 years old. She was a stupid kid. That may not be conventional rape but it was certainly soul stealing. This girl became my Branch Leader and told me this one night.... So many of us had stories. I need a nap! --> This stuff can wear ya out! Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 16:00.]

Okay olds I just may do that, I am still looking for that dam n letter he sent me. Everyone else thanks for the support. Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 13:20.]

You know what else is sick? Some of the parties these girls, not yet at the drinking age of 21, went to.... Well, there was Howard and other old guys and they had booze. They got these kids drinking and then these old guys started kissing on them with an overall orgy flavor to the event. Now, suppose one of your kids said, "Mom and Dad, I went to this lecture of Jesus. It was great! But then I was asked to a party and the old minister and other old male church people gave us drinks and were pulling us on top of them touching us! Mom and Dad, I was so drunk one of the old men placed his hand under my panties!" We would all be outraged and go do some .... kicking. Yet, here some of us sit and discuss if maybe VPW was a little horny or the 70's were a free sex period... I grew up in the 70's and I was not into free sex and the idiot Weirwille tried to get me. The poor little friend of mine who went in the coach and was asked to give him a back rub had never even seen a penis before and that was in the 70's! He was a criminal and he used GOD to do his crimes! And if you still like PFAL -- Great! I consider it a great book written by BG Leonard. Just call a spade a spade; although very interesting, we should not have to generate 5 pages of dialogue to convince someone VPW was messed up. If we look at the accounts it does not need commentary. I guess that is why sometimes I tire of all this. Olds think what you want. Your questions were answered. You have the right to ask, but if you dig your heels in and continue to defend VPW then that is your choice and your problem. I told you a lot of what I know. I have more accounts I know of, but I don?t think you can hear all of it at once. It?s okay to have your own opinion and I do not take that from you. But I do not want to rehash this 400 ways and have the same resolve. My goal is to be honest not to make you a VP hater. I just want you to know who you are defending. And if you choose to do so, that is okay. I just weary of these ardent loyals to a con-artist. Forgive me, you have the right to handle things at your own pace... You can think what you want. Olds, I do need to leave this thread for awhile. Good luck in digesting all of this. Everyone -- love to you!! Interesting points and stories. I hope some folks still in TWI leave as a result -- If that happens then the 5 pages of commentary were worth the slight headahche.... :D--> Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 12:36.]

RAF: I read everything and you asked me back to the thread. So, I would like to address something. OLDS: Folks are picking at the "signs" that a girl gives when she means no. Personally, I find that ambiguous. And truly in a court of law it would not be very concrete. But again, it is not the issue. The issue is not did the girls give little signs?. It is WHAT BIG SCAREY THINGS did VPW do to rape/sexually use these little girls? IF you have ever watched a show like Court TV or Unsolved Mysteries you have seen how a pedophile or sexual predator works. A man may befriend himself to the single mom. (After, he stalks and compiles information that THIS family can be set up ? single mom, lonely child, financial trouble in keeping babysitters) So, he befriends Mommy. Then, he offers to baby-sit. He starts by playing games like checkers or hide and seek. Then, he introduces a NEW game called ?touch? and another called ?ride the pony? Then, he tears the child from the Mother by building lack of trust in the parent and rebuilding trust in HIM. This insures that the kid will not tell. Okay, so enter TWI. Most of these kids were 16- 19 years old and taking PFAL. Some were doing drugs all were seeking something more than they got at home. They were seeking something noble ? they sought GOD. VPW worked several ways. We were pulled away from our family as they were unbelievers. For instance, on the WOW field you could not go home. Example: The first time he saw this young girl (one of the posters) she was a newbie at twig. VPW was naked in the bathroom and he left the door open even after he saw she was startled by his presence. (A weird thing for a minister to do. A weird thing for a father and husband to do to a 17 year old kid). Then, he parties with them offering them ?grown up? things like beer and Drambuie. He offers to take the girl to Indiana Campus if she is able to go. He gets his alone time and makes her feel special. Then, once on the coach out comes the booze?.. LET US ALL LOOK AT THE THINGS HE DID AND FORGET THE SIGNS THESE YOUNG GIRLS DID OR DID NOT DO. Who cares? I do not give a dam n if she was unable to speak from fright or if she just sat passively. What was this old fat guy doing to get these girls into this situation? Here is another friend of mine. She was 16/17 years old at the Advanced class. She was so excited! And as she walked by the coach Chris asked her to come in the coach and meet VPW. She enters, overjoyed to meet the MOG! But he was naked! He asked her to give him a back rub. Chris told her ?VPW asked me to bring in the first pretty girl I saw.? Then, he rolled for a front rub and she turned beat red and got out of there. Another girl was tormented by sexual misconduct in her own family. She goes into the corps and had to write a paper called From Birth to the Corps. She outlines the abuse! VPW sends for her and says something like, ?Ah honey, I read your paper! That is awful. You deserve to be loved not used.? She relaxes and sits down. He hugs her and then begins to feel her up!!!!!! I do not care if she was too shocked to say NO or to run or give a signal. She was set up by an old evil man. A serial sexual predator.. If you do not like the term rape - OLDS ? then let us find something you are comfortable with. How about a serial sexual deviant? How about a sick-sick man? What you concede he was ?evil?? How about a sinner? You can pick whatever name you feel comfortable with. BUT PLEASE do not say that these girls (my friends) were looking for sex with this scanky old fart. Please do not insist these kids should have been able to handle a situation that was way beyond their abilities to handle. Did you have a sister you can recall being 17? Olds, do you have kids? Are they or have they been 17 years old? If someone invited them to church and then took an interest in them you might not suspect anything. Now, suppose YOUR kid came home and said that the minister gave her 3 beers and then felt her up? Or he took a shower and exposed himself to her? Or took off his clothes and asked for a back rub? Would you say, ?Well, honey you should have said no? If you did not say no then that was your fault!? Or would you go kick his fooking ....? You can figure all this out on your own but at least give these kids, these little girls the same kindness and awareness you would give your own daughter. Just do that and if you still want to like VPW then go ahead. Just do not keep suggesting these ?kids? ?your daughter? or ?your son? would want an old minister to touch them. See, you are thinking of Ex and me and Watered Garden and others as adults because we are now! We were not then. I tell you, if I had a daughter and she was 17/18 years old and some old minister acted like VPW did, I think I would have visited him with a gun or a police officer. BTW, I am looking for a letter VPW wrote me. I complained about my corps assignment. He wrote to me something like "I wish your boobs secreted as much as your eyes do." How appropriate is that? I kept it incase I needed to proove he was an idiot. I will look for it and post the thing when I find it. Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 11:31.]

Gosh Long Gone Seeing it all laid out like that I guess I am not so understanding of Olds. He seems to change the words people say and then gripe about them and it is not what is being said. Thanks Long Gone Olds -- Shame on you! Tssk Tssk! Are you just trying to cause trouble? Cause laid out like it is above sure does make you seem caustic. Enough of all this, I am off this thread. God Bless. Ex thanks for having the courage to start this thread, Hope thanks for your bringing up Marsha, Water Garden glad you could finally unload, to all those that stand up for those of us that lived through the VP nightmare -- Thank you so much. For those that do not get it -- I hope someday you do. For those that just want to hurt people for telling the truth -- nothing we can say will help you. Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 02, 2003 at 17:03.]

Happy b-day! Dot Matrix

You'all I personally, shared what happened to me because Water Garden asked why nobody confronted VP and I knew I did. I knew some people would not believe me. It is okay. I am sure Ex and Hope and now Water Garden know not everyone will/is going to believe them. It is okay. Olds can not handle all of this right now. I accept that. To those of you who needed to hear what we had to say GREAT! I am glad we said it. I do not think the other girls are hurt by a few folks that still have a hard time with all of this. Now if Olds said we enticed VP then I'd go a few 'rounds. He is just struggling with VPW. Heck, VPW and his class probably did marvelous things for OLDS. It did for me. I saw the idiot naked and it still was hard for me to seperate "this is the guy who taught PFAL" from "this is the naked weirdo in the coach." Olds, ask God to show you and he will unfold things to you as you can receive them. I am not offended by your questions. I do know at least one woman that did like VPW. She was an early corps person an Anna Nicole type whose vagina saw more action then the Gulf war. She told me she thought VPW was attractive and she was with him often until he passed her along to Howard. But as QQ (I think) said even if there was one that wanted it, it does not excuse the 100 or so that did not. So Olds. good luck figuring it all out. I will not try to convince you of any thing. But if I post around your unbelief please do not take offense, I just think your questions have already been answered. Love to all those that have been through this, believe us who have - when you have not, and those that are just now realizing something in TWI was wrong for a very long time. Peace Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 02, 2003 at 15:14.]

oops something weird happened on my edit

Olds: I wrote:Olds- Really, Are you okay? It is begining to look like Hmmmmm. (as GT said.) Were you a Rev? Did you fall into the weird doctrine? Have you been in a personal battle over some of your conduct perhaps? Look, if VP taught you the doctrine of devils and you were caught up in it then you are also a victum. Are you alright? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you answered: Dot Matrix, Yes I'm fine. But I thought it was interesting you said if I was "caught up in it then I am also a victim". Thank you for trying to comfort me in that you say I was also a victim. But consider this too: if I was caught up in the doctrine of devils, then can't you apply that same logic to VPW? He ALSO was caught up in this doctrine of devils, no? He (VPW) was a victim of the devil too then, wasn't he? Now this is my response: Olds I did apply the logic that VPW was caught up in the doctrine of devils. I went to him personally to show him he was deceived, and I sent him a letter in the letter I told him I believed he was being led/attacked by deceiving spirits, etc. The difference is HE WAS CONFRONTED and did not stop. He always said it was a Biblical Research and teaching ministry and if you showed him from the word he would change his opinion. He did not. Other ministers Rev.'s DId stop/change when they saw it from the word and left the illogic of VPW's teachings. A Kansas Rev who got into TWI was then broken into the "free sex" stuff. When he SAW it was wrong he sent an apology letter out to all the women he had hurt! The Bible still meant something to him! VPW did not elevate the Bible, IMO, above his own narcissistic view of his sexual desires. So, yes at first I thought he needed reproof. When I did it and Ralph and others and he WOULD NOT listen, then I no longer saw him as a victim of devilish doctrines but one who aliened himself with those doctrines despite the Biblical evidence that they were incorrect. I no longer saw it as a trick but a decision made as he taught Adam knowingly and willfully disobeyed God and followed Eve. He KNEW and he choose his evil ways over goodness. Your kindness toward VPW maybe because you are a better person than I am. Truly, if the Apostle Paul killed a bunch of people in the church today, then repented, I do not have what it takes to forgive him. Maybe over time. Maybe. But VPW, to my knowledge, NEVER said he was wrong or sorry. If he said he was sorry and meant it, this thread maybe different. If I were a kid, I would rather you be my parent then I. You would stay in their corner. Not an altogether bad quality. I would be the parent who would turn their kid in, I would be Ted Kivinsky's brother.... Who is to say I am wrong or you are wrong? I beleive VPW was willfully a monster. You do not. It is okay. I just thought maybe you were a Rev. and had gotten into that "sex" stuff and were having a hard time with this thread. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 02, 2003 at 12:12.]

Geez! Dot Matrix