socks

diazbro, I think you've hit on an excellent description of the "absent Christ" doctrine as it's effected so many people. Even using the word "absent" puts that in people's heads. It says "He's not here". Digging into Way teaching, the "present" Christ was in each one of us, the pneuma hagion, the "Christ in you". The body of Christ, a collective pressence. That presence would then be lived as each person takes their "place" in the body, as described in Ephesians. Something very much like this is taught in the church I go to sometimes, but it's different in some key areas. One, that the presence of Christ Himself, in each person's life, is a personal expression of a "living" and "present" Christ. For want of a better word to describe it He has an "identity" that's immediate and knowable. Christ is looked to directly as redeemer, mediator, savior, and head. We ourselves live and function with our own place. There's less of a mystical muddle about who Jesus Christ is when looked at that way I think. While it's difficult to picture exactly who, where and what He is now, it's a part of the Christian life for that to be opened up to each individual through their prayer life, study and guidance within the fellowship of others. It's a task of the spirit to open up God to us and Christ is our shepherd. We need an immediate and personal relationship developing or we lose that pastoring we need from Him. I think Way teaching led many people to understand the presence of Christ as their own presence....in a sense that "the mind of Christ" is primarily manifested in their own. Christ as a risen, living individual, while "spriit", is subjugated to my own actions and "believing" then. Christ only lives when I let Him live, in other words. To use terms we're familiar with, that makes sense to the 5 senses man, but it subverts the spriitual man and again, the use of the word absent speaks loudly. Paul taught that while many in his time had known Jesus as a man, they no longer knew Him that way, for obvious reasons. Knowing Him was still possible, but as Paul teaches, different than knowing the guy they had been with "in the flesh".

Well, if nothing else this seems to have scared CK off - where ya at? No wingnut, speaking for myself, again, that wasn't the point. Not to worry, If VPW is getting off the hook it won't be for long. My personal point was that if a person takes a picture of someone, say Daffy Duck, or George Bush, or let's say even me cause God knows I myself suffer deeply everyday in ways that only I know and if everyone else did I'd be given the Mother Teresa pin for good behavior for sure, and put it on the body of Jesus on the cross, it would be weird, to me. I would always respond the same way. That's all. If the point was to say "Daffy Duck set himself up to replace Jesus Christ", I'd think hmmm. OKay. But the use of Jesus's crucifixion to prove that point, while an important one, would be weird to me. But that's me. I guess I'm a stick-in-the-spud. So be it. This is America, the good old USA and it's the constitutional right of ever citizen to pi$$ and moan about anything they see fit to, when and where they want to and in whatever way they want to and to the extent that if there's any justice they'll get a government grant to fund it. While I can't honestly use tax dollars to fund my personal peeves, I'm serious, some countries I'd be picking fleas out of my cell mates hair for complaining so much sometimes. I proudly exercise my right to express my inestimable opinion. I'm a good citizen. I highly encourage everyone to do likewise.

No straw in these ears Garth, but the South Park thing is escaping me, sorry. I really don't see the validity of that statement, and there's no need to apologize for it, because I don't "get it". If you mean - think this is bad? Go watch some South Park - it's really bad too! Then I would respond - why would I want to watch something - else - that's really bad in YOUR opinion of comparison and indeed - why does the fact that (you say) South Park's existence somehow validates - doing more of the same kind of thing here? See, I just don't get it. I do watch South Park and when they do some of the stuff they do, I switch channels. What's the big deal with South Park, for Chri....oh, wait a minute, uh, well, you know what I mean. By the by - this may baffle anyone who can't read english, but myself - I never asked for the image to be taken off the site. Not sure who started that, but it wasn't me. I disliked it, voiced my opinion and stated why. Whoo hoo, right? I didn't ask for it to be taken down. I say leave it up - Mark stood by his post, there's no winner or loser here (other than I now know the limits of bad taste Mark is capable of...IMO) it's just a discussion board as Mark said. A good place to read and learn and share. I did a bunch of each on this thread. All this get tuff with a 2 x 4 stuff is weak, to my mind. Get heavy, pushy, shocking, put some strong in your wong. Come on. Again, I don't care what point you make or don't about VPW, but if you're going to get heavy about it, continue to use your intelligence, wit and heart Mark. You're a smart guy. Why bend over to show you can?

Hey there! dmiller~ I haven't, what do they run! and sound like? Is it electric or...?

At the expense of sounding petty and shallow I'll leave it to the orginator of the idea, Mark, to do whatever he wants to do. I'll say it again, fI don't care what point you want to make about VPW. I think there's limits to what means justify the end. If it's that important to you to demonstrate your convicton that "some" people place VPW above Christ, fine. Go for it. But to use the image of Christ on the cross to do it is off limits - for me. Frankly it's not my mission in life to hit people over the head - for their own good of course - to see things my way. And it's definitely not to figure out some more suitable icon to do that so we can all be in agreement on the politcally correct and acceptable imagery. You know how I feel. We disagreed. What's even weirder to me though is all this tough-talk about 2X4 methods. Is that what you really want to do?

That dog don't bark, that pony can't dance. What's that mean, Garth? " Touche' " ? I stand by my post, no deletion or alterations necessary ( ) If you're trying to say I have no right to say what I said, I say...you're wrong. It's not shocking, it's insulting. To me. It's not "some", it's me. I speak for me. Moi. Le Soques. I registered my complaint, that's that. What else you got? I have over a 1,000 hours easily on Photoshop since the turn of the millenium, and a number of other digitally enhanced enhancers. I've got 5 minutes. Who's head goes where?

What's up widdat image???? What can be tackier than taking an image that millions hold to be sacred - the crucifixion of Christ - and use it in such a way to make a point, a point that's marginal at best in the context of a discussion on "persecution"? It's a perfect example of how a person will stretch the boundaries of decency and respect when it somes to - VPW or the Way or anything to do with any of it. Right outta the gate, all bets are off. Nothing's too low or too nasty if it denigrates any or all of that. Is that it? Time for a heart check. Still ticking. That's a relief. Sorry Mark. It's a free country though. I'm surprised. I don't consider myself to be superstitious, despite what others might consider my Christian faith, but on the other hand I don't spit in the wind either, if I can help it. Has nothing to do with VPW, a lot to do with Jesus Christ. Don't be insulted, but I'm going to stand over.........here. I'm bummed. But it'll pass.

ck, it's' just difficult to understand where you're coming from, because what you say changes from post to post. Maybe not what you mean, but what you write. Here's an example - At one point you wrote: Why do you think it is important to read Revelations?? When A few books back you look in Thessanlonians 1st it says We are saved from the wrath to come,(I Thess 1:10) then in the same book it says Jesus will descend from heaven to get us( I Thess 4:16,17). So then what more is for me to learn in Revelations... Then at another point you wrote: I have also learned that Revelations is not important to us. Then another place you wrote: The book of Revelation has alot of things about how the world is going to end but I guess you just erased it. Though it is nice to disregard those sections that is the wrong thinking. The bible is here to show some things of the past, some of the things that we need to live a more abundant life, and things to come. There are sections in Revelation where God has no mercy on non believers. That whole part about being cast in the lake of fire comes to mind. Please don't get confused by my use of the references to Revelations as having some hidden agenda or meaning that I really want you or anyone else to read Revelations and that's why I'm posting this. That's not my point. It's just an example of how you picked out a mention of it and have referred to it several times, in opposing ways. You state it's not important, then say it it wrong to disregard sections and point out sections that you think are important, apparently only to make a point you want to make. I'm just pointing this out, but I'm not going to get into it with you back and forth because I don't see it being worthwhile. You're studying the bible and pursuing it as you see fit is a good thing and I'd encourage it. Discussing it like this is kind of a vanity thing I think on your part more than anything. At least that's the way it appears. Best wishes.

Ditto, SafariVista. They can start on their acoustic guitars with the lessons. Basic stuff they'll learn in the first few months, it won't matter. That's great you're encouraging them! :)

Well, I do declare! 'S Belle! "But you didn't stop there....did you....?" Nice stuff. I've been teased, now I need to be pleased! when's the whole biscuit coming??

Aaaah, I think CK has a personal gripe against the Pope, dmiller. Weird. I don't get it. Why would anyone with a personal gripe, post it on this board??? :) Y'know?

Well speaking of wolves, I wasn't referring specifically to VPW or anyone in particular CK. Here's the section in Acts I was thinking of. Following it, my scintillating comments: 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brothers, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yes, you yourselves know, that these hands have ministered to my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring you ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. 36 ¶ And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all. 37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him, 38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship. Step into that record for a second and listen to what Paul's saying. Now, gently, so I don't give Sirguessalot the impression we're getting weird here...I'm not interested in hammering on VPW or anyone in particular when I mention "wolves". What I meant was, it's an important function of the church, and what you'd probably consider the quality of "leadership", to watch out for, help and warn others in the church when you believe it's going to help. Paul did that. It's a good example of being honest with people here, in a caring way. Paul was living the love he taught about. He could have just said hey folks, it's been a blast. Thanks! I'll be passing the hat around, so if you've been blessed don't be stingy! But he didn't. He really cared about these people and so he left them with the best he had to offer them. He reminds them of how honest he's been with them in other things too. He worked for a living, supported himself and others, and did so that he wouldn't be grifting off of them to do what he believed he was called to do. And so that he'd have to help others himself. Paul did what he says Jesus taught. Not that many ministers do that, VPW included. Many feel they're called to do "the Lord's Work" and want everyone else to pay their way to do it. That's not honoring the God who made the call, IMO. I haven't always felt that way, but that's the way I feel today. That's just one point, not to be harping on it, but it's a point worth considering when we talk about "wolves". Most of the religious world is in the business of building successful Christian businesses, AKA "churches". It's a personal peeve of mine. Has nothing to do with VPW, the Way, the Roman Catholic church, or anyone specifically. I feel the basic message of the LIFE of a minister is often lost in the pursuit of a ministerial career. Big whoopdee doo. But - as an example - it's one of the things I do post on this board from time to time, if possibly to remind, "warn" people looking into churches like the Way, that we've got some simple clear examples of honest pastoriing and ministering in the bible to look at - certainly Jesus Christ Himself. Paul, many others. To me, that's a part of being loving. Doesn't mean you or anyone else has to or needs to go along with it. I put it out here, as I do in other ways and places, for consideration.

Lesseee, there's been The Sower and the Contender. Without much thinking I assumed the Sower was to sow some seeds and generate interest in newbies and the Contender was for the more serious CES bibliophile who felt contention was their cup of tea. I got the Sower for awhile, without asking for it which was kind of nice as it meant that I had a secret buddy out there somewhere who put me on the list, or maybe it was for the benefit of my lovely wife who is always remembered fondly as she has historically had the good grace to pass up opportunities to needlessly tell people what she really thinks of them. Either way, it came like clockwork for awhile. Then - a year ago? - a letter came that talked about how it wasn't going to be sent to people that never responded back with any interest, which I guess means never wrote back a thank you, or sent money or bought something. I guess. Which made sense, sort of. Since I'd never asked for it to be sent, I had no interest in it really. Nothing caught my eye in it, which may be a giveaway of some kind that I'm too much of a deadbeat to benefit from it anyway. Don't know for sure. After a bit it stopped coming and hasn't come since then, that I know of. But we get a lot of mail from businesses that we didn't ask for, so I could be wrong. And in a way, it's kind of nice getting all that unsolicited mail even though I complian often and loudly about it. That mailbox is always full. Mailers, fliers, offers, serious opportunities for me to buy, sell, borrow, from friends who only have my best interests at heart, they say. It's nice. It's definitely better than an empty mailbox. Empty mailboxes seem so - depressing. Hey! I'm here! Doesn't anyone want to send something? In this world we live in, it's almost suspect. No mail. What's your problem, bud? It costs money to do stuff like this so I think it makes good business sense for anyone in the higly profitable and fast-money-streaming business of Christian-ware and Religious Gee-Gaws to balance the books now and then and see who's really being helped and responding iwth some hard cash, and who's just suckin' the straw for free. Or like me, taking valuable resources by mistake and ulitmately by false pretense as I'm too lazy to tell anyone to correct the mailing list. I like free stuff. It's cheaper than the stuff that costs money, no question about it. If it's free, and I could use it, I'm there. But personally, getting another e-version of something I didn't want to begin with would be a waste of cyber-resources that could be put to better use sending penis enlargement ads and ways to Make Money Fast! notifications. So frankly I welcome this opportunity to avoid clogging the info-money highway. Not doing something is actually a way of doing some good. For some reason, that appeals to me.

Well that settles that. Paul followed the same pattern of leadership as the verses that Goey posted. He very clearly spends quite a bit of time discussing the inappropriate and unloving behavior of the Corinthians. Without pointing out what was wrong he couldn't clearly direct them to what was right. Paul makes no bones about saying who he thinks the people in the church should be wary of either, in other places. He names names. Also tells his protege Timothy to watch out for certain kinds of people. He tells us all to beware of wolves getting into the flock, posing as good guys. Paul knew as well as anyone what it meant to be a bad guy, by the standards of his new faith. He judged himself least worthy of all on the one hand, and on the other clearly aspired to the higher vision and standards of his new faith. "Love thinks no evil". It begs the question "what is evil?"

Two - two! Two meetings in one! That explains it. The first reference I read to it online was the "November" meeting, which was held in the BRC and that Randy A walked out of in the middle, etc. That meeting, me go. No see gun. Maybe gun, maybe no gun, but me no see gun. But there was another meeting, me no go, and there were guns. Or a gun. Pistoleros. Hardware. Blue steel. One eyed Jacks. Colts. Shorties. Sleevers. Serious protection for the seriously deranged. I can see that. Guns? For or against what, I'm not sure. Don Weirwille couldn't have taken 10 quick steps without hacking up the remains of his first shortie Kool of the day. What's Craig going to do? Dance? Badly enough to scare people? Howard's another case. That wiry frame, beady eyes. He might have been worth watching. Maybe they weren't to keep people out, but to keep people in. As another hour of Geer's relentless posturing and snorting would have led any sane person to have at least feigned a bathroom break. Hopefully, no new ones will be ripped due to this post, as it would be a waste today, really. Other days, of possible benefit. Maybe I can take a Rip Credit, as some days it would be a help. Put me down for one. I'll be back.

Danny, on the Ventura guitars, I found this link to a site that has some information on them. I've played one or two in the past - different models though. Is this one like yours? HERE. The site research said they were made in the same factories at one time where Aria's were made. There's a couple Aria semi-holllow body electrics that are really nice. I like their FA series, HERE's SOME NICE PHOTOS ON THE ARIA SITE. The FA 71 almond is a nice guitar, as is the FA50E.

Nope, ain't just you, or us Chas! My wife keeps commenting on the song keys, they sound too low sometimes for the singers to navigate. Some of the stuff - Like Stevie Wonder's tunes - shows just how great a sound Wonder has in his voice. But it's tough to go from low to high in one verse or chorus and while I assume that the keys are selected carefully they seem like a half step up in some cases would help. It just doesn't always sound like the band is "there" all the time, dunno. Arrangements - one of the toughtest but most rewarding things to do I think is take a song that's very established and work with that arrangement to add your own mark to it. It can be tough. Some of the stuff the house band on the INXS show did was really good I thought. The guitarists had parts to play that were expected, and they had to hit the mark for the singers and be there, and they did a great job at it. There was a version of Bohemian Rhapsody they did and they nailed it, with energy and without sounding like karaoke. Seeing INXS up close must have been great! I always liked them, they've got the Big Riff sound down. I haven't really followed the new singer and the stuff they've recorded for release. If you can, post a pic! That would be cool. Well, this weekend I'm trying to get out with the Girl and look around for a used acoustic guitar, maybe a nylon string. :) If all goes well....might have one soon!

Sid! I cringe at the thought too Chas! Hopefully the Guild is one piece still. American Idol - speaking of guitars, the band and the broadcast mix - anyone else following the show and think the band is so-so? I've been disappointed with the sound - the drums are lost, and the overall rhythm section is hard to hear. I wonder if the monitor mix the singers hear is any better. It sounds pretty weak to me, and the electric guitar(s) are pretty muddy every song. Few weeks ago the acoustics on a song sounded out of tune. Is it just me? :blink: I like all the singers, would like to hear more from all of them, rather than just a tune each week. It's kind of a drag knowing that someone's always going to be lowest and off each week. Mandisa tonight - way too early! I thought she'd be in the final group. The INXS show that ran last year had a hot band, I thought they really were good and made the singers sound better. The concept was kind of cheesey, although I've always liked INXS and David Navarro managing to look and act normal was interesting to watch. But the guitarists in that band were both very good and adjusted to each song they worked up. Much better as a basic rhythm section too.

Greets! Good to sEe everyone! Lots of stuff to catch up on, so I'm reading back a few pages. :) JL, quickie on the wah-wahs-Vox is a good wah. Morley makes a couple. Their basic wah is a good size and floor shape but not too strong a "wah" effect so if he wants to really wrangle some guts out of it the price is right but the wah is a tad weak. Works though. I'd recommend a Vox or the Dunlop "Cry Baby" wah. But The Boss unit Bluzeman's got might be just the ticket, actually. :) There's a lot of effect pedals and manufacturers, and they can be hard to choose from. A pedal board would give him a lot of FX and a chance to learn them. Couple of the coolest and most used effects are vibrato and tremelo. This page had a good description of both. With a little amp reverb, they can add some cool sounds. Listen to the opening of "Gimme Shelter" and it's got that sound. "My Father's Eyes" by Clapton has a nice use of vibrato and reverb on the solo lines.

Moderately Greets! ChattyKathy, the 'inventor' of the guitar - this guy's probably the closest to the title, Antonio de Torres Jurado. He put together most of the features we'd recognize as a modern "acoustic nylon" string guitar in the early part of the 1900's. Neck length, top strut support, scale length, fret placement, bridge setup, all of that stuff. Prior to that the guitar was being developed over a few hundred years by a lot of different cultures. I may be mixing them up but I think there's two lines of thought, maybe more, on how we ended up with the guitar and one goes back to middle eastern roots and the other looks to the Greeks. Overall stringed instruments go way back 5,000 years to ancient Egypti-era pickers. There's been all kinds, 4, 5,, 6, 8, 12 stringed instruments in all kinds of shapes too. What came out of the the middle-Eastern instruments was more like a sitar-type instrument. I don't know that I'd call it a "guitar", although it had frets. But the use of the fretboard with imbedded frets and the string pressing into the fretboard against the fret, and set to a scale length for 6 strings that would reliably and consistently produce tuned notes is "generally" attributed to Jurado for being the one who put it together. Was he a Muslim? I don't know to be honest, I've never read he was. Not sure what difference it would make. Not to say by that that Muslim culture didn't make a contribution but it's a little overblown for anyone to say they "invented" what we today would call a guitar. It's really a culmination of a lot of stringed instrument designs over centuries of time.

Beautiful, ChattyKathy! Love it. I'm going to be out of town for about a week and may not be able to be online here with the thread for several days. I'll look forward to catching up with everyone later! Please carry on, with grace and charm! And guitars!! Love ya'all. :)

Michael Hedges - great stuff. One of his older tunes I love is "Woman of the World". It just floats along so nicely with long gaps of strumming that are just beautiful. I think you may have the lowdown on that Les Paul Chas. I visitied that Ibanez board, and took a look at mine, an older Japanese made RG 560. It seems to follow most of the comparisons they show between the real and the fakes. I don't play it much but it's a nice guitar. That Les Paul may be a "real" fake, which I've never seen before. Very interesting.

Thanks Mr. Heller. :) Tom, I think we're saying the same thing, maybe or pret' near? Linda Z, I agree too, that a teacher has an agenda, always. Bottom line, communicate information and develop understanding. Perhaps even to encourage further development.

Double whoa Bluzeman! It says Gibson on the headstock. That's a very good price. I'm really curious now. It would be a great deal at that price,

Whoa! Does it play itself!? We have two cats and yeah, I've noticed they love that plush lining!