Seth R.

VP Wierwille died......age 68

Ermal Owens died.......age 69

Harry Wierwille died....age 70

Gee, what the heck was wrong with "their believing"...???

Three of my four grandparents LIVED INTO THEIR 90s.

<_<

.

Believing one could live for ever and then drinking booze and smoking kools like it was going out of style not so smart.

I don't remember if it was in a class or publication or what, but, there was a concept that circulated around The Way regarding longevity. It seems, according to Way theology, that one controlled one's own lifespan by virtue of the so-called "law of believing. In other words, you could theoretically live forever, as long as your believing held out.

This is but another example of the kind of bad science that found a home in Wayworld.

According to scientific studies (specifically those involving the Hayflick Limit) human cells have a finite number of times they can replicate. It's built into the DNA. If you can manage to stay out of the way of runaway dump trucks and steer clear of neighborhoods known for drive-by shootings, the cells in your body will eventually reach a predetermined point at which they can no longer replicate. At that point, they die. Sort of a built in clock. Not even the much heralded "law of believing" can persuade them to do otherwise.

Hayflick Limit

Telomeres are the key, support your telomeres and sirtuin proteins and you can extend your health span, meaning how long you will live a healthy life. Anyone who wants more information can email me about it. seth.i.rosen@gmail.com

;)

Seth

My opinion, after all these years I know why I have PTSD.

Seriously in some senses we were encouraged to take risks and push the envelope, unless you were helping a branch coordinator put a new shingle roof on, then all safety precautions will be adhered to.

Seth

Not much has changed since 29 September 2010 my last post.

Oh now don't get all excited I'm not "back" it's just that I'm coming up on 20 years since going WOW to Fort Meyers Fla. I got to remembering all you folks from Way Dale and those crazy days of real drunken madness online so angry so victimized.

I figured I'd visit and see what is going on, I want to thank you all for talking me through it, I'm not that guy anymore, and I'm happy.

I'm still an atheist, still loving atheism.

Anyone want to catch up with me I'm on facebook seth.i.rosen don't add me to any groups, I don't care about rehashing the TWI days I've moved on to doing all the stuff TWI told us not to do, and it's F'ing sweet.

Seth

My Mom went that year, St. Mary's California I think.

Seth

As a newcomer to the bible, I tend to agree with you but not completely. For me, the interesting part of reading the bible is trying to figure out what the underlying message is, or was intended to be. Maybe sometimes there isn't one, and maybe sometimes the message is of little use to modern man, but I find it all interesting just the same.

Unlike what some may believe, I think many stories in the bible can be interpreted in various ways. And if nothing else, the dark poetry in Lamentations, the love songs of Solomon, the prayers in Psalms and the (sometimes hidden) lessons in Proverbs are just plain fun to read.

But wait this is the canon of scripture, are you allowed to love some and ignore others? Wouldn't that cast doubt on you as a true believer? You can't just accept parts of the bible and reject others and call yourself a christian. Yet that's what people do, they say in public one thing but in private wish for the vengeful god to come back as in days of old and execute swift judgment on infidels like me. I say, bring it! Let's see what gods or devils can do, I'm calling them out right now in public on the world wide platform come and get me. See nothing. Nadda, zip, zilch,oh wait I feel a pinch in my stomach, oh, no it was gas.

Seth

From a scientific standpoint there are literally dozens of problems with Genesis. I do love reading it, though. If one can accept it as an allegory, or (gasp!) admit that there may be some factual errors in the story, then there are many lessons a reader can take way from it. The story of Cain and Abel, for example, with its themes of jealousy and sibling rivalry is a story for the ages that has played itself out countless times. Almost everyone knows a family where two brothers are estranged because of their differences.

The things that bother me about Genesis don't seem to bother other people as much. For example, Adam and Even lived for 900+ years, if I'm not mistaken. If there were a pre-diluvian race of individuals whose life span was nearly a thousand years, wouldn't there be some archeological evidence of it, flood or no flood?

I was doing some thinking on the story of Cain and Able, I have several problems with it from a moral and mental health perspective. I will try to break it down as sibling competition, dysfunctional family values, immature passive aggressive father figure.

The idea that god accepted Able's sacrifice because it was a lamb and didn't accept Cains because it was grain is mean, tyrannical. The idea that god didn't give an out for Cain by telling him just give Able your sacrifice for a lamb and I will accept that, a win win win situation, god wins because he gets a worthy sacrifice and avoids the murder of Able, Able wins because he gets some quality grain and keeps his life, and Cain wins because he remains worthy in gods eyes and doesn't become a murderer.

The stories in the bible are twisted and mentally unsound, they promote unhealthy relationships and foster division.

Seth

Dude I'm not looking for answers, I'm trying to get people to actually think about what they are reading. You did not answer my questions. You used no science.

The Koala's and kangaroos swam from Australia to Africa and walked all the way to the ark?

Seth

Seth: It is nice of you to keep trying to understand, and wise to concede certain points when they make sense to you. And thank you for the fine link. There was lots of interesting things there.

As far as Noah having to travel to China and Austrailia, we are mindful that Noah did not have to gather the animals himself. They were "inspired" by some sort of "instinct" to come to the ark and go inside. Just how God did this is not explained.

If you have read the account of how Daniel survived in the lion's den, you can also understand why there was no need to fear any dangerous species which were aboard the ark. God made sure they were all safe.

As far as "taking care" of the animals...perhaps there was an "onboard ecology" whereby nature worked in similar ways with that of today. Species which ate flesh did not starve...there was plenty for them to eat for a few months.

Most animals in nature do not require human intervention to survive in the wild. Perhaps it was like that on the ark to a certain degree.

The more you look at the details, the more will "add up". There is no reason to quit. If you want answers, keep asking and searching. You will find.

SPEC

:)

What Flood? You keep referring to a flood that was I'm guessing worldwide? Is that even possible? It is not according to the scientific evidence. So strike one, no flood no need for Noah.

Ok I concede the fact that a significant number of the 3 to 30 million species are aquatic and in some other form immune to death by flood.

Alright then, how many species could fit in this Ark, with enough food to make the voyage for a couple months? The figures I have are from http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/sizeark.html ark displacement 22,000 tons, gross tonnage 15,000, volume 1.5 million cubic feet, equal to 569 railroad stock cars. Now to satisfy the biblical requirement Noah may only have needed between 2,000 and around 35,000 animals, an ark of this size would easily fit 40,000 animals leaving 70% of it free for food and living quarters.

OK fine, but this is what get's me. There are a high number of species that are unique to certain geographical locations. Australia has Kangaroo's, Wallabies and Koalas along with a dozen or so others I can't remember, did Noah go all the way to Australia to get them? What about the giant Panda and lesser Pandas from China, did he go to China for those? OK let's assume he did, now after the flood did he go back to Australia to return the indigenous species, and did he do the same for China?

Your question of knowing how many were extinct is a loaded question because it would fail to explain the huge diversity in species of dog horse cat and other animals within the relatively short time of 4,000 to 5,000 years.

The other thing that also get's me is that there would have to be a significant hazard from all the dangerous predators and venomous animals, every venomous snake would need to be onboard. I mean you'd have hungry lions and tigers, and bears, oh my!

8 people took care of all these things? I just don't know. The more I think about it, it just doesn't add up.

Seth

That is interesting Seth. 20 cruise ships, huh? I would like to see a breakdown of these species. I wonder just how many of these 60 million were aquatic, not being affected by a flood. I wonder how many were birds like ducks and such, who could float and eat fish. Your remark needs much further delineation to be a valid argument, if you care to show us all the breakdown.

And in your list, please don't forget to account for the "mass distinctions" which happened prior to the flood in Noah's time, according to what paleontologists (among the many other disciplines within the science community) have proven as historically factual. That should further limit your "original list" quite substantially.

And somewhere you also need to somehow prove precisely how much time had passed since those extinctions until the flood, so we may properly account for any possible further evolution of the remaining species. However, not believing the scriptures are valid, I doubt you could even get started with some reasonably believable timeline.

I know this is quite a task to undertake, but if you are willing to try, there are many who may consider your remarks as worthy of further investigation.

SPEC

:)

Charlene, Beautiful article one of the best I've read here thank you for publishing it.

To equate a book of literature with a book of mathmatical formulas is not an axiom

[Who] would ask to have proof for the non-existence of something[?] Atheists like me believe in the non-existence of god, not because there *is* proof of the non-existence of god, but that there *isn't* proof of the existence of god.

A scientist always starts with I don't know, not I believe, so in research you can't start with an assumption and treat it as evidence for the types of experiments you will and will not do. Saying the in-errancy of the bible in an axiom precludes real serious study because you aren't a skeptic, you are a true believer the true researcher is skeptical even of their own findings that's why there are so many peer review journals in science. Where are the peer review journals in TWI or religion at large?

The assumption that what the bible says about itself is in any way reliable with out being tested is crazy, go back and read the first two chapters of Genesis and really try to have no preconceived notions about it. Does it make sense? Truly? Does it contain no contradictions? Really? The first two chapters of Genesis is so incomprehensible I can't believe it isn't filed under fiction 200 years ago or at least poetry. Then the story of Noah, pure bunk! Every animal by two? Check out how many animals species there are including insects, between 3 and 30 million! So collect 6 to 60 million animals insects included, house them and feed them for a couple months? The Ark would have to be size of 20 cruise ships unless you are Dr. Who and have a TARDIS, and this was all to be done by 8 people? Come on! get a freaking clue!

Seth

First, I have to wonder if Garth thinks he lives in a world without axioms, where somehow everything can be proven.

Garth, do you believe that X=X? Prove it!

Do you believe that X+Y=Y+X? Prove it!

These are just basic mathematical axioms which most high-schoolers know. (And, at least when I was in school, they were taught AS AXIOMS.)

Do you believe that God exists? Prove it!

Do you believe that God does not exist? Prove it!

Again, either of these statements, if accepted (and since they are mutually exclusive, one or the other must be true), is an axiom.

From a set of axioms, logical conclusions can be drawn; but there are no "first principles" which are not axioms.

For me, it is axiomatic that if the Bible is God's Word, then it is inerrant. (I suppose the actual axiom is that God is inerrant.) A conclusion from this axiom is that if I accept the Biblical assertion of Jesus Christ as God's Son, I must also accept that Moses parted the Red Sea. Others may pick and choose what particular parts of the Bible they wish to believe, but there are axioms underlying any such choices.

So, perhaps I should re-state my thesis: ASSUMING the axiom of an inerrant Bible, the fundamentalist methods used to interpret it (as per Bullinger and many others) are logical. Feel free to disagree with my axiom, but don't pretend that you don't have others.

George

I suppose I wouldnt mind having a beer....

the next step is already happening...

Remember the time Jesus body slammed that downtrodden leper who was just looking for a cool drink of water?

Harvest Church in Winterville Georgia has taken up providing "Ultimate Christian Wrestling" in its church

Story LINK.

Jesus may have died for you but he could have put you in a headlock and hit you with a folding chair if he hadn't.

each to his own but this is a little much for me..

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What's next NASCAR church? Here comes the pastor around turn four, OH! He just wiped out the back pew, the choir director raises the yellow flag, and the pastor driving for team Jesus limps back to the pulpit where he'll have to finish his sermon.

I think '79 is way to early for the "Twig Hopper" as it was a Gift to VP unveiled during the 40th anniversary gala crap which places it circa 1982, that's if my memory serves me.

As far as where is it? I'm sure they have it stored away somewhere waiting for the 75th anniversary in 2017, when they can roll out all the stuff and bask in the glory of the good old days.

Seth

Very awesome post Twinky.

Seth

You sign up for a program that asks you to leave your job and home for a year, bring $600 in travelers checks, get sent to a town you never lived, with people you never met to work 20 hrs a week to pay rent and give 10%. To knock on doors 40 hours a week to play a 36 hour 12 session class several times that year, we did 7 or 8 I can't remember it was 17 years ago.

They call it WOW, and said you'll grow 10 years spiritually in 1. All I got was a serious case of suicidal ideation.

Seth

She might LOOK ugly but she FEELS pretty!

10 year testicular cancer survivor here, did surgery's and chemo. Early detection is key with anything especially cancer. The earlier it's detected the less radical stuff you need to do, like I had 2 rounds of chemo versus the normal 4 for those who had it spread.

One thing is for sure I don't fear cancer like I did when I was in TWI. You know dogma about cancer being devil spirits and such.

Cancer cells are just like college students on spring break, cell gone wild. LOL All kidding aside if you think you have something don't wait get it looked at, it may be nothing but it's better check and it be nothing.

Seth

Very Sad news.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Majel_Barrett

Barrett died at her home in Bel Air, California, at 12:27AM on 18 December 2008 following a short battle with leukemia. She was 76 years old.

Seth

Hi Miketheorgasmist, wel-come to the G-Spot. LOL!

I'm Seth, I'm an Atheist! Wheeee!

I had 2 copies of the book. One I bought at the ROA it was released at and another was one I bought specifically so LCM could sign it. They both have lng since been turned to electricity in the local trash to stem plant.

Seth

This is pretty much off the cuff. My mission in life right now is to be a messenger of the coming paradigm shift from a global to a planetary society. What that means is that this new world order people are talking about and fearing is only going to be a flash in the pan that ignites the transition to a planetary society that values human effort above all material things. The time is coming when we will no longer need to work to make a living or work to live, but we will live to work. The HPP or Human Planetary Product like the Gross National Product will be reflected in how many human minutes are required to supply the planet with the 3 necessities of life, food, clothing, shelter. As we advance the time it takes for humans to fill the basic needs quota will be less and less.

I'm inspired by Jacques Fresco and his work on the Venus Project, and Future by Design, and his ideas about the monetary system and the resource based economy.

I started thinking how do we get the neigh sayers to get in line for this new paradigm? They say no money? Where's the incentive? So I have a plan for a system that will generate incentive, and the best kind, satisfaction. There is no greater incentive then the feeling of satisfaction of a job well done, otherwise this world would crumble because there are thankless jobs that people do because it gives them pleasure that they are helping people.

So here is the plan.

First we have to agree that everyone world wide, EVERYONE, gets paid the same, zero, zip, zilch. But everyone is provided food, clothing and shelter. All debts are forgiven, all current assets people own will stay theirs unless they want to share. Money will not be needed everything will be free, so if a trucker needs to deliver a load he doesn't need to pay for fuel, anything he needs along the way no charge, hotels, food whatever. The factories need raw materials to build the cars and trucks and anything that's needed they don't pay for materials. The power needed is free, farmers get all they need to farm, their laborers are taken care of with homes and food and all the necessities of life.

As this is happening the scientists and engineers are working with unlimited resources and facilites to develop automated systems that take the place of laborers. Medical research is unfettered by profit motive and breakthroughs are available to everyone. All patents are opened to every company, no longer is there wasted human effort in reverse engineering inventions to avoid patent infringement. All engineers are free to design smart roads that stay warm in the winter to melt snow and ice, illuminate at night so everything on the road is seen.

People who want to live in the country can and not need to be hooked up to any municipal water sewage electricity system. We have the technology to build fully integrated houses that generate their own energy, and process the sewage, collect and filter water. Even build "roaming" homes that move slowly over a landscape based on weather conditions or need for resources. Let's say we have a smart roaming home that uses organic matter to power it's systems, so it's a giant lawnmower in the summer, in the fall it's a leaf collector.

The incentive comes as we progress on a planetary scale in automation and health and sustainability that the value of the Human Planetary Product starts going up. This is reflected in how many human minutes it takes in a year to fill the Basic Needs Quota or the BNQ. Let's say right now it takes 18,000,000,000,000 Human Minutes per Year or HMY to sustain the status quo. In order to raise the value of the HPP we need to lower the HMY it takes to fill the BNQ. So we shift to the resource based economy and say Human Minutes are the highest thing we value.

We look at the worlds 6 billion plus people and we say that every one of their minutes wasted doing menial labor and mind numbingly repetitive work when those jobs can and should be automated is devaluing the HPP.

So how do we tackle these problems?

Look at the video game craze, it's not a fad, people like doing challenging mind twisting things, simulating danger or risk. Massively Multi Player Online Games bring people together to adventure and team up and solve puzzles. What if we cybernated manufacturing and delivery using game like interfaces, we can have a massively redundant system that people log into and let's say remotely assemble a car, but what they are really doing is quality control, because the over all system will not allow the operator to go beyond the parameters of the default settings, however if the human operators do a better faster more accurate job they get rewarded and the program controlling the assembly is enhanced. Passenger aircraft can benefit from a few extra eyes to help fly the plane and make safe landings even if the pilots aren't able. Also these cybernated systems having the benefit of regular human interaction fine tunes the systems, and enables a tighter manufacturing process or a safer transportation system or a more accurate shipping system.

As things advance and the value of the HPP goes up instead of spending 8 hours on the job, we only need 6. Then more advances happen and we only need 4 hour work days, and all the way down to 1 hour work days. Eventually everything will be so automated and cybernated that just living your daily life will supply the work necessary to keep things going. I don't know how all this is going to happen, but I'm sure it will, and not to far in the future.

The day will come when one Human Minute will be so valuable that a ton of Gold couldn't buy it, because theres a whole world in a minute, and this is what people have lost. We have lost the value of our own time and the time of others, and life has become so cheap that we don't have the means necessary to prevent deaths from floods, tornadoes, drought, earthquakes. Famine? We should be ashamed that famine is even possible in this world, because the abundance is there, the technology is there, what stops it is politics and money, two evils that need to be eradicated. We need to wake up and wake others up to the wholesale fraud of the monetary system, and the political system and the religious system (abrahamic monotheism) and every system that has a ruling class.

I hope to live to see the day when everyone has a home and food and clothing without money or fear of loosing what they have.

View Karen's outstanding talk on the TED web site:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/karen_a...compassion.html

Penworks! Another TEDster, I love TED. Karen Armstrong is now on my list of most beautiful people in the world, she definitely is Buddha, and makes complete sense to this Atheist.

The current state of "religion" is political, shallow, and dilute of meaning. All the 3 Abrahamic religions are merely poorly repeating the Mystery Schools. Infinite compassion, infinite love, infinite joy, that is our birthright and what we can live now, waiting for another life is futile, and wasteful.

Stop being consumers and start being Creators. You have it in your power to create the world you desire, to deny that is the greatest evil man can do.

Seth

Aren't Jesuits part of the Roman Catholic Church?

would seem a rather large "adversary" for der vey's legal team to take on..

and considering they are doing "business" in Britain.. seems if da waymeisters lost, they'd end up paying ALL legal fees, for both parties.. air fare, exotic meals, miscellaneous expenses..

Yeah I wouldn't mess with those Jesuits, they should read Dune before making any moves against them.

Who?

Me, I favor education and correcting misinformation. Cowering from

legends and fairy tails should have been ended back when they ended

the witch hunts.

They ended the witch hunts? They just renamed witches, the current name is terrorists.

I agree though, closed mindedness breeds closed societies, and in a closed society the potential for cult mind control is overwhelming.

People should be educating them selves on "The Great Transition" what most christians fear the most, one world globalization. Not one world government, or one world bank or one world army, or an emperor, just a global community, built on a resource based economy. http://www.tellus.org/

Seth

Thanks WW for that insightful post. My Mom always told me that one of the guys who started D&D was a cop out, and that the game started out as a Way Corps training tool, but I never believed that. I might just get into it now it sounds like a really fun social setting.

Seth