laleo

Vickles, my apologies. I stand corrected. PT is the way to go.

I don't think I know what a "little jimmy" is, Lindy. But I can imagine. Good, huh? Krys: I like that chocolate peanut butter combination, too, but my real weakness is Edy's French Silk. I know better than to buy it, although I occasionally break down, like I'll have to do this month in deference to Reagan and patriotism and all. Cowgirl: I wonder what it is about Omaha that brings out the ice cream in all of us. I visited there, once, but don't remember a proliferation of ice cream parlors. Had I known, I would have kept an eye out. Cindy: I'm not sure where the nearest Baskin Robbins is, but I'll be with you in spirit. Around here, there's still tons of tiny, family-owned ice-cream parlors. I've tried all of them. Belle and reikilady: If you ever make it to Vermont, the Ben & Jerry's factory is worth a visit. Lots of hype, but lots of samples, too.

My daughter and I saw this last night. It's a documentary, along the lines of Spellbound, but instead of spelling bees, this one is about a program in the NYC public schools that teaches kids -- aged 10 or 11 or so -- how to ballroom dance. Then the most talented kids are paired up to compete in a city wide contest, each school represented by a team, with teams being disqualified with each level of competition. I liked the editing a little better in Spellbound. That movie had an wry edge to it that is missing in Ballroom, but this movie was still fun, capturing quite a few very human moments as these kids learned to interact on the dance floor. Anyone who was ever ten will probably be able to identify with at least one of the characters, if not all of them in their awkwardness, hesitancy, and innocence. It's part coming of age, part slice of life, part urban reality.

Courtesy of Ronald Reagan, July is now recognized as National Ice Cream Month. Any plans to celebrate?

Good to know. Thanks, Linda. And make sure to tell him not to try that stunt again. Next time, we want plenty of notice that he's leaving. ;)-->

Yes, you understood (and answered) the question. Which, to me, sounds similar to Aristotle's (or is it Plato's?) theory about goodness drawing people to itself. I think all sorts of doctrines, systems, theories have arisen to explain what many know but don't know about the experience of grace. Aristotle spent a lot of time coming up with an explanation for why some people flourish and others don't, why the "magic" follows some and not others. I think I like his conclusion, as far as these things go. Do good, and (hopefully) you'll find goodness. Unfortunately, where things seem to fall apart is in replicating the experience of grace, which I guess is the best answer I have to your original question: Whose fault is if you don't flourish, don't prosper, don't find those moments of grace? I don't know the answer. Do you? Also, I wonder where those occasional moments of sadness come from when they don't follow a specific event or loss. Like, is despair also spiritual? Is it part of some universal experience? More importantly, now that you brought it up, where did "gig" come from? Glad you enjoying your gig, whatever its source, and whatever it means.

Together, what do they accomplish? Looking back now, I don't know what to make of those moments of healing; those moments when I thought I knew something or understood something beyond what I could have known or understood -- what was real and what was imagined. Also, I wonder how you're defining "power." Miracles? Or something more human? If you feel like explaining, I'd like to hear about the experience you once had (or had many times, for all I know) that has you now putting it into a spiritual context.

Hmmm. Well, the email I sent him bounced back. Must be an old address. Let me know if you track him down. Now I'm wondering, too.

Linda, Have you heard anything? I've wondered about him, too.

But I thought the daughter DID know what was in the box. By the time the movie was done, the thing I wanted to reconstruct was the car accident that opened the movie. Who was in it? Everybody? I almost want to see the movie again just for the first ten minutes.

I didn't expect to like this. It got lukewarm reviews where I live; in fact, it was in and out of the theaters in a week. But it was playing down here, so we saw it. I really liked it, if I didn't say that already. Funny, but I live in a very homogenous area, and the reviewers thought this movie was superficial, and offensively stereotypical. "Real" people aren't like that, they said. I wonder if you have to live in a more "diverse" area to understand how true (and false) the stereotypes are. Anyway, I'm not sure what the plot twist is. It was over my head. Now that it's practically out of the theaters, anyone care to elaborate on the plot? Nothing shocked me, although each story was as triumphant as it was tragic.

Honestly, I think that's unique to Wierwillianism, and whoever influenced his theology. Most of Christianity accepts suffering; some sects even welcome it. The gospels, and even the epistles (if memory serves), indicate the promise of power will be fulfilled in the future, not in the present. I don't pray. Haven't for a long, long time. So I'm not seeking the "power" that I once thought was my "sonship right." I like Christianity, always have, but I don't take it literally anymore. You asked about faith earlier. I'm willing to accept the definition in Hebrews that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." How that translates to me (Invisible Dan, you'll like my "modern" version, totally unscriptural, I'm sure, but it works for me) is that all the unsee-able things -- like kindness, hope, peace, trust -- exist for the person with faith, the person who continues to reach for all that is good, even while living in a world that undermines goodness. I'm not looking to change the course of the planets, or to speak for God, or to exhibit supernatural powers. God can be God. It's enough for me to be me. I'm not looking for more. Anyway, maybe I'll take some more time to think about it this week while I'm sittin' at the dock of the bay, wastin' time . . . under my beach umbrella, with a stack of novels on one side of me, and the ocean breeze on the other, with nothing pressing to do than to be . . . watchin' the tide roll away. InvisibleDan, Thanks for your post.

Don't get me started. Oh, you mean about the thread topic? Not too much. It brought to mind John 3:8: Other than that, if I say anything else, I'll end up breaking all your rules about brevity, metaphysical musings, and paradox. Oh, hell, might as well live dangerously, right? Actually, my problem with the initial post (now that I can get beyond the title) is that it leaves out metaphor, specifically illness as metaphor. Before science, before medicine, before cure, illness meant something about the person experiencing it, and some of the character attachments seem random, in hindsight. People who were in asylums for tuberculosis, for instance, were romanticized. It was an affliction of the elite, of the passionately creative. Syphilis had other, more negative, associations. And on and on with the different illnesses. Even today, among self-help gurus, and metaphysical types, heart sufferers are thought to be "Type A" personalities, cancer sufferers, something else. Depression is often thought of as some type of divine suffering. But for the most part, medicine has taken the metaphor out of illness. Now, people with tuberculosis are cured so quickly, they don't have time to be stigmatized, to reflect on how they got themselves into their predicament, if they even did. In some places, the Bible uses illness as a metaphor for sin, a reminder that we are fallen. Other things are used as metaphor, too. Material wealth, large armies, lots of cows and kids are metaphors for God's blessings. So, anyway, I'm not really sure where cause and effect (or just effect and effect) fits into this. Germs cause illness. Penicillin kills the germs which cause the illness. Some illnesses don't have a cure, yet. Does that mean the metaphor is now irrelevant? I sure don't know.

Hey, satori, I said something about the thread title earlier, then I changed my mind and deleted it because I thought I was being too nitpicky (even for me). But that dang "who's" is getting me out of fellowship. What are the chances of changing it to "Whose"?

Not so much anymore, since they're older now, but that's how my kids earned money in the summer -- by reading. I didn't give them much, maybe a few cents a page, but it sure added up. Kept them reading, too. Anyway, I kept a book list for each one, and they got through dozens of books in a few months. My only requirement was that the books had to be written at their grade level or higher. With only having one daughter, I would imagine that the intensity of the relationship is a lot greater than if you had a houseful, which probably puts a lot of pressure on both of you to do everything "right." Don't know if this would apply to you or not, but when I don't know where my kids are, I start calling all their friends, past and present, to track them down (which is what I did yesterday). This is embarrassing enough that they (usually) remember to tell me exactly where they are and who they're with. Yesterday, it only took a few minutes to find her, because other parents were making phone calls, too. Turned out she told her sister, who forgot. Last summer, my youngest went through a period of hanging around downtown with kids I didn't particularly like, but who she thought were good kids, just misunderstood (yeah, right). Anyway, she kept trying to turn it into a trust issue, like it was her I didn't trust, instead of them. It was a rough couple of months that she spent with that crowd, then I finally had enough and told her the party was over. Thankfully, she listened. Maybe she was starting to see through them herself. Anyway, let us know how the job search thing turns out. Good luck.

Okay, I'm leaning towards Barnes & Noble, or Starbucks. With their clientele, you might get some referrals for your part-time work, but you'd also have the security of company benefits. You'd have evening hours, too, though, but I say go for the security of a larger company, rather than the intimacy of a small business, mostly because of the insurance benefits (life, health), and the possibility of investing in the company, depending on how they're set up. What about clothing stores or department stores? Anything like that appeal to you? My sister worked for years at The Limited, first as a store manager, then as a buyer. When she quit working there fourteen years ago, she had quite a bit of company stock to hold her over for a long, long time. Hey, can't complain about a thirteen-year-old who wants to be at the library. Mine (14) had her 8th grade graduation today -- we walked into a very hot, very stuffy, very crowded auditorium and were greeted by the middle school jazz band thundering Smoke on the Water. It was way too early in the morning to appreciate the "talent." It was fun, though. The usual celebration as they gave out awards. I don't think anyone left without one. Anyway, at least you know where your kid is. Mine is off at godknowswhere with her friends.

Actually, Susie, with your education and previous skills, you sound like you might be more suited for retail than office work. Have you looked into bookstores, coffee shops, music stores, and the like, especially something with a metaphysical influence? You're qualified for management. A lot of hours, maybe, but it seems like something you'd enjoy. And congratulations on your graduation. Oh, and that must have been Oakspear insisting on the bathroom. He'll put your daughter to shame for the time he spends primping. :)--> Sung to the tune of Brother John: You were primping, You were primping, Now you're late. Now you're late. Start a little earlier. Start a little earlier. We won't wait. We won't wait. Oakspear's favorite church used to sing that tune to him on occasion. Hey, I hear Oak is having computer problems. Maybe I should let you in on a few things, since he's not here to defend himself.

Marry someone with money. ;)-->

You're right, a price was paid, definitely in income, and status, and in other areas, too, depending on people's experience.

There were things I liked and didn't like about The Way; things I miss and things I never hope to experience again. I think the doctrine itself was silly, and often harmful, which is probably why I'm not sitting in a fellowship now. I just wouldn't be able to buy into the "teachings," or even sit politely through one. Having said that, looking back, I can't say that I regret my involvement, not completely, or feel like my youth was a total waste. In a way that's hard to define, I think I was "saved," even though I'm not even sure why I needed salvation. It was no gift, though. It came at a cost. "It" was there, and I was there, and then "it" left, and that's that, and life goes on. If I walked back into the same atmosphere, if ROA '74 was ROA '05, I don't think I'd see "it" as so real, and so genuine, and so authentic, anymore.

Not sure what you mean, satori. It (whatever "it" is) must have meant something to you at one time, didn't it? ex10: I only knew him from a distance. It wasn't his kindness that I saw or felt. In fact, I thought he was a little intimidating. Not sure what went wrong when, or if it was ever even "right." There was a community there, though, and it seemed genuine to me, at least at one time.

ROA '74. There was a high level of love and acceptance. You're sure right about that. I was a teenager then, still young, not even working yet, and was forbidden to go. I went anyway, with a carload of college kids who were traveling through on their way west. I don't even remember who arranged that ride, or who paid my admission, or who gave me money for food, but I do remember I didn't have a dime to bring with me, but didn't feel the lack. And after four days there, I took home with me that feeling of utter relief in finally finding some goodness in the world. Then, eventually, I spent a lot of years, too many years, trying to recapture that feeling. Sometimes late at night, if I'm out for a walk, and the night is clear, I'll watch as a random plane thunders across the sky, and wonder who the passengers are, if they are heading back home, or heading for a new life; whether they're visiting children, or lovers, or trying to put a marriage back together, or on a business trip, or just going some place new, or revisiting some place familiar. It's that moment of being en route, suspended in air, in forward motion, knowing, but not knowing, what's ahead. That's what The Way was for me. I don't know where the momentum came from, or how I got caught up in it all, or what role Wierwille played in it, whether the energy came from him, or if he was as swept away as we were. Love is such a subjective thing, Too Gray. It's hard to know where it comes from or why it leaves. But it did seem to be in New Knoxville, if only briefly. How it got there, why it left, and why some found solutions, and others heartache, I don't know. Anyway, another time, another thread, we'll reminisce about this stuff. But, yeah, just wanted to let you know I know what you mean.

I don't mean to answer for TGN (I'm sure he'll add his own insight and experience) but did you, honestly, ever think it was a "good Christian group"? I mean, it wasn't an organization that appealed to the goody-two-shoes among us, did it? As I remember it, inherent in the teachings was the understanding that we could be imperfect, and remain imperfect, perpetually and unrepentently imperfect, and still know and understand God. Wishful thinking, for sure. At least at the beginning, when Wierwille had the most direct influence, before he "trained up" others to take his place, The Way was a sort of a refuge from societal expectations of responsibility and obligation (aka "adulthood"). As far as the "shenanigans," I don't think it was a big secret that people were having sex. Rules have changed since way back then. Not too many of us had any concept of sexual abuse, harassment, intimidation, except in the most extreme cases. I mean, we could all recognize forcible rape, but most of what was going on "behind closed doors" was more subtle than that. Back then, it wasn't quite as clear who was wrong and who was right, and where and when the boundaries were crossed, and by whom. I'm not so sure it's all clear to me now, come to think of it.

The pork chops were a hit, as were the sweet potatoes, but I have a weakness for sweet potatoes, anyway, no matter how they're cooked. Salmon is next, although I'm not so sure about that ginger sauce. Did any of you ever go to Third Aid at the Rock or any of those other events? They'd give out some sort of cure-all ginger concoction that you'd have to choke down. If you were congested, it would clear you right up -- but only for about ten minutes or so, then it would be time for the next dose. Anyway, about the only thing it did for me was put me off to ginger. coolchef: Do you cook as a hobby, or do you have a restaurant somewhere?

Yup. He was wrong.