Grace Valerie Claire

1 hour ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

Maybe it should read VPW and Loy boy in Toyland

OMG!!  I am laughing so hard!!! 

It always amazes how there are so many witty, and funny writers at the GSC.  But Twinky, Outandabout, TLB, you guys have nailed it!!! Seriously, I felt like I had been slapped in the face when LCM gave that former football player a WOW pin!!!  I did not know the man, but it really ticked me off that he got a pin for something he did not do;  my WOW year was really hard.  When I received it at the ROA in 1979, it meant a great deal to me!!  Years later, the Way Mag(Rag?) made a big deal of how Tony Collins, and perhaps another player(?) got special WOW pins from Craig when neither player deserved them.  A few years later, I think Mr. Collins had a drug problem while he was in the NFL.  I can not remember what happened to him after that.  But I do remember that the Way Mag kept quiet about the incident.  Oh yes, TWI was a respecter of persons, very much so!!  Nitwits!!
 
 
1
GreaseSpot Cafe
  
Announcements

Log in changes   08/07/2016
With the upgrade there is no longer separate login ids and display...

Document Section   08/11/2016
With the upgrade to the new server, we ran into problems with the...
Getting Daughter/Son Out of the Way
Started by Brainstormer, September 11
85 posts in this topic
PREV
1
NEXT
Page 1 of 4  
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hello,

I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.

We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!
  1
 Quote
 
Galen     14

Members
2,278 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Welcome

In my humble opinion; never cut ties with your children.  It is good to be able to have open conversation with your child and reassure them that they are loved. If you chastise this, it may drive them away from you. Which would be a mistake.  With how things are evolving in The Way, I suspect that your child will leave on their own in less than 10 years.  You can only whitewash over corrupt leadership for so long until everyone is left openly admitting that it is all corrupt. At that stage, the fact that they can freely return to your open arms, will be a huge relief.

Galen

 
  2
 Quote
penworks     58

Members
749 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hi,

I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.

I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.

But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.

If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com

I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.

Cheers,

Charlene Edge

 
  2
 Quote
waysider     316

Members
16,042 posts
Posted September 11 (edited) · 
I was involved with The Way for several years and I've been out for several years now. Looking back, I think that discussions regarding doctrinal differences between Way beliefs and mainstream beliefs did more to strengthen my resolve than dissuade me. But, everyone's experience is unique so there's no absolute method I know of. 

I, too, was in a program that involved living with other Way people who had a similar level of commitment. Our main focus was to live a Way-prescribed lifestyle, recruit new members and support our efforts by working at secular jobs. In essence, it was what most people would call a commune. It was a religious commune,not the hippie, drug centered kind that's been portrayed by Hollywood movies and such.

One of the key methods that was used was isolation/insulation from outside influences, including family and non-Way friends. This was much easier to do back in the 1970's when I was involved. Other than time spent at our secular jobs, we had very limited contact with outside sources. We had no T.V.s, no phones, no newspapers. To be honest, there was not much free, personal time that could have been given to such things anyway. (Our sleep allowances were limited to about 5 hours a night.) The world has changed dramatically since then. People on the other side of the globe know instantly when you put mustard on your hot dog instead of ketchup. Well, maybe not that extreme but, the internet has certainly made it much, much harder to keep followers in darkness.

As others have said, keep the lines of communication open, let them know you care, and be patient. Everyone leaves when they're ready to leave, sometimes even sooner if they toss you out on your ear in the middle of the night. I hope we can answer any questions you may have. We will certainly try.

edit: spelling

Edited September 11 by waysider
  1
 Quote
krys     47

Members
4,519 posts
Posted September 11 (edited) · 
s others have already said, I, too, have been intensely involved for many years. I don't think there was much that someone could have said that would have made me leave. If you try to argue or discuss doctrinal matters, it's not likely you'll win. After all, various denominations also have different viewpoints. Also, Way believers are carefully schooled on them so they may have firmer beliefs than you do (not to insult, but to explain the level of indoctrination). I think you may have better luck appealing to her own intellect and thought processes.

If you can get her to see how special she is to God in her own right as she is with her education and in her job, for example, it may be possible to get her to stop  thinking about quitting her job now.  The Way tries to get its followers to follow blindly; at least they did when I was involved. Try to get her to think for herself. Try to point out the negative difficulties they've had. That should be easy now that we have the internet. Google around yourself and  look around some more on this web site to find some really pertinent examples of that. If she wants to "give the glory to God", she would do better to stay away from that organization.  Suggest that she not take your word for it, but check it out herself. If she gets some understanding herself, that's much better than being told what to do by your parents.

Being separated by distance is never easy. As much as possible try not to harp on this. Of course you need to discuss it; but harping on it is another thing.

Edited September 11 by krys 
correct spelling
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 11 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
(SNIP)...We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!

Hi Brainstormer and welcome to Grease Spot!

I agree with the others that keeping the communication lines open is so important ....and loving them ......and never turning your back on them.

parenting is such a challenging and often thankless job - and i think it's not until kids get to be mature adults that it begins to dawn on them how wise mom & dad really are.

as for answering your primary question ( Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?) - - with me it was finding out what a fraud the founding president was (Victor Paul Wierwille) - this i found out on my own....long story short: i was in the ministry for 12 years and going thru their leadership training program at the time (the way corps) when VPW passed away - after which some at the top began vying for power - that made me question a lot of things; but not questioning any of their doctrines so much as i started having doubts about VPW's qualifications; which led me to look into some of the claims he made - i even called the registrar's office of the Moody Bible Institute Correspondence Courses and discovered they have no record of him completing a single course - contrary to his claim that he took all they could offer on Greek or whatever....that in turn spurred me on to look into assorted systematic theologies by reputable scholars and only after that did i get into analyzing the way's doctrine and practices with at least a working knowledge of basic Christian theology.

my pet theory on how people get into or get out of questionable organizations boils down to the things in one's own head that can trigger a change of mind. Howard Gardner wrote an interesting book Changing Minds - after reading it i sort of adopted the philosophy of the SNL character Stewart Smalley mocking those self help gurus "only you can help you." i think there is some truth in that.

Changing Minds by Gardner

if i would offer any advice: don't get so hung up on doctrinal debates - instead maybe try to get the person to question or doubt what makes the teacher of those doctrines qualified to say such things....if you can get someone's critical thinking activated - - they just might see thru some of the BS themselves.
  0
 Quote
Quote this
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. The good news is that our lines of communications are open. And I believe we have shown our love and support and will continue to do so. I will look into the books also. And I've been reading as much as possible to be better informed. We will stop talking about doctrinal differences. Interestingly, my husband did bring up the credentials of Dr. Wierville. Jessie was a bit taken aback by that I believe. And we mentioned the issues of leaving a good job. So I guess we may have had some of the same ideas as all of you.
  0
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hi Brainstormer,

Great insights shared by others already. I'll echo and emphasize a point made by Waysider. Challenging doctrinal issues is almost certain to be counterproductive.

The Way built it's cult(ure) on classes intended to emotionally establish in the student's mind that all of Christianity was wrong except for how Wierwille and those who came subsequently presented it.

Keeping your relationship open with your child is crucial. Let him (or her) know you trust and believe in her (or him).

Ask your child questions that enables the person to come to the correct answer and think he/she came up with it on their own.

This is often how people who write letters to editors of newspapers succeed in getting readers to look at issues differently than they did originally.

If you can provide information from neutral sources that shows how to recognize spiritual abuse, that can be helpful. More on spiritual abuse and leaving a bad church.

I was involved with The Way for 12 years as a young adult. When your child is ready, one key will be having a good social support system available so it won't feel like walking away from Jessie's own entire network of friends.

I wish you and Jessie the best. <3

 
  0
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 11 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 7:41 PM, penworks said:
Hi,

I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.

I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.

But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.

If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com

I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.

Cheers,

Charlene Edge

Inserted links for Karl and Kristen.
  0
 Quote
WordWolf     207

Members
14,123 posts
Posted September 12 · 
God bless you. 

Here's some things you may want to know.

1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists,  Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't empathize with us much.   I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.

2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what.  Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.

3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.)   When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit.  A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored.  So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)

4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:

I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources.   I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.

Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads.  "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline.   vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi.  He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else.  After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said.  "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book.  I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline."   I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :)   Ok, links to the other threads.

Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi. 
  1
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 12 · 
  On September 12, 2016 at 1:13 AM, WordWolf said:
God bless you. 

Here's some things you may want to know.

1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists,  Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't [might not] empathize with us much.   I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.

2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what.  Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.

3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.)   When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit.  A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored.  So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)

4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:

I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources.   I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.

Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads.  "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline.   vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi.  He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else.  After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said.  "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book.  I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline."   I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :)   Ok, links to the other threads.

Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi. 

My apologies WordWolf, for the edit I made to one brief section of your comment above.
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 12 · 
Hi Brainstormer, and welcome to the Cafe.  Plenty of people here with very diverse views.  All linked by the one connection: TWI.

It would be fair to say that most, if not all, of us got involved by hearing Bible teaching of an apparent standard that we hadn't heard before.  And in its initial levels, the Bible taught is quite good.  That's because it was pinched from quite a number of people who had studied it, and were able to teach it.  The plagiarized version presented to TWI beginners was never and still is not as good.  But it may depend, from your child's point of view, on how well taught she was by other churches.  Also, at initial levels, there is a great feeling of cameraderie and fellowship with other believers.  Who, mostly, are pretty great people.

The problem arises as one gets sucked deeper and deeper in.  Way-based activities tend to displace time for non-Way related activities and spending time with friends and family.  It's slow, and subtle, and deadly.  Gentle nudges in a direction different from where she might otherwise have been going.  It's likely that Jessie will be being taught overtly or by example, that family and old friends are dangerous to her walk with God: that they will either pleasure her or pressure her from "the truth;" therefore, the more you challenge her beliefs, the more it will be seen that you are working to distract her in her walk with God, and you may even be working against God.

  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God"

I am sorry to say that that is what many of us wanted too.  The desire to know God and give glory to him is in fact the vulnerability! 

Some of us had previous good jobs and high-level professional qualifications.

I would suggest that you don't challenge doctrinal issues (which you will also find between most denominations) but the outcome of those issues and the practicalities of Way life.  Like: cutting oneself off from friends and family; not being around for family events; dropping her Christian friends (of course, they may drop her!); and, of course, not fulfilling her God-given skills and abilities by pursuing her career ambitions. 

Remind her (very gently) that Jesus hung around with all sort of disreputable people (the religious high-ups of the day condemned him for hanging out with thieves and prostitutes) - Jesus clearly "mucked in" with them - wasn't preachy and strident but drew people to him by his genuine kindness and compassion.  Jesus was only strident with hypocrites of the religious classes - not with ordinary people or his own followers.  How does Way leadership treat her?  Treat other people? How are people who don't spend a lot of time with the group treated? Or are they shunned?

The comments from people here are from a long period of time, decades; they are from people who may never have met each other to "compare notes" but who have the same sort of stories to tell; some of us were "in" for a long period. 

As others have said - be kind to her, keep the door open. 

You might want to show some interest in what she is being taught, so that you can either point out that that is what she has already learned (from the local community of Christians), or how it differs from what is taught elsewhere in the Bible.  She will probably be very hot on what it says in the epistles and maybe Acts; not so hot on and dismissive of the gospel and OT, so gently draw any points of difference from the epistles, if you can.

 
  0
 Quote
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 12 · 
Just to clarify a few things. I only mentioned that we (Jessie's parents) are Christians for context - so you'd know where we're coming from. I realize the folks here are of different faiths or no faith and we respect all of you (and value your opinion). We have friends that do not follow any religion as well as friends from about every mainstream religious group out there (and some not too mainstream). I would never judge any of them or any of you. But I think we all agree that The Way is a destructive group even though it may be filled with a lot of good people. And maybe these posts can help others as well as our family.
  1
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 13 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
Hello,

I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.

We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!

Gents

I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.

See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe

http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html

Below the webpage regarding 

Ex- The Way International

http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html

I still have others resources.
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 13 (edited) · 
Welcome, Bapsy.  Glad you got out. It's good to give; but tithing is one of many things TWI got wrong.  2002 - you have "stickability" if you've been with them since then.  And you have common sense, to have escaped now and be thinking things through for yourself.  Well done. Be cautious, though, in utilising ex-Way splinter group resources; acknowledge their provenance.  Some are more worthy than others; some are just a re-hash of old material.

Let's hope Jessie makes it through too - but in less time.

Edited September 13 by Twinky 
Ref to suggested OP's website link
  0
 Quote
chockfull     107

Members
2,356 posts
Posted September 13 · 
To me many of the vulnerabilities that a cult exploits is just youth.  A young mind is maturing at least until age 25.  Humans in their 20's also are known to be very ideal based, hopeful, looking forward to their life and changing the world, looking for a cause, looking for a circle of reliable friends, looking for support systems, looking for a deeper meaning to life.

There wasn't a whole lot that would have talked me out of a decision like the one Jessie made when I was young like that.  And you have local leaders love-bombing them and challenging logic saying "just go see for yourself and prove God in your life".  

I'm so thankful my parents stayed in contact and remained as loving as they did throughout the many years filled with moving around the country, prioritizing everything else in life over them due to my 'spirituality', throwing away opportunity after opportunity, and being very hypocritical and unloving to them.  Since I've left TWI we have a much better relationship, probably mostly due to me apologizing for being an @$$.  

If Jessie would do some research on this site, after time she would probably come to a different conclusion than the one she holds to now.  However, realistically she probably won't.  The leaders will tell her we are all possessed and disgruntled, and you don't need that negativity in your life, any lie to keep people from being freed from their grasp.  TWI is so desperate for people right now that Jessie is being used by local leadership to prove to their overseers Christian growth in their area.  They have this vision and direction quota system and all.

Unfortunately, speaking from experience, the young adult mind has a real hard time believing sincere people will lie to them and use them.  And some of these leaders are so deluded that they just push all the cult evidence to the side even though they know it and they make up more lies, like "the ministry used to be like that, but it's kinder and gentler now".   Jesus said you can't put old wine into new wineskins.  You can't force a ministry based on practices of adultery and plagiarism into morality by whitewashing the outside and "Pollyanna" ing it.

 
  0
 Quote
chockfull     107

Members
2,356 posts
Posted September 13 · 
the woman in charge of TWI - rfr - is someone who was a schoolteacher, divorced, has abandoned/ turned over her own children to Satan with no further communication with them, was known to participate in the adultery and free sex behavior in training, has hidden a same-sex adulterous relationship with the 2nd president's wife with which she ascended the presidency by including disposing of the former president, and is known to be an absolute OCD control freak.   

Whatever someone's beliefs in the Bible are and/or need for a church family are, associating with this woman in any way shape or form is probably not a good idea.

 
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 13 · 
  On September 13, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Bapsy said:
Gents

I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.

See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe

http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html

Below the webpage regarding 

Ex- The Way International

http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html

I still have others resources.

welcome to Grease Spot, Bapsy! and thanks for the links.

speaking of the tithe - i read an interesting book Decision Making and the Will of God a few years ago and it has a chapter devoted to that....it also has several other chapters that might be interesting to ex-way folks (on guidance, choosing a job, choosing a mate, etc.)

Decision Making and the Will of God on Amazon

 
  0
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.

I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.

I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.

Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?

 
  0
 Quote
Bolshevik     190

Members
4,529 posts
Posted September 13 · 
I grew up in TWI.  I was argued with for and agaisnt TWI since I learned to talk.  Doctrinal discussions and attacking leadership is a waste of time.  Usually the people a person is connected with keep them involved.  Unless someone is a nut job, which TWI has a lot of. 

Chances are someone young and with a degree will leave within a handful of years.  Twi has no depth and most folks involved are not that interesting.  I find it hard to believe anyone is involved to "learn the bible".

 
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 13 (edited) · 
  On September 13, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Bapsy said:
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.

I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.

I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.

Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?

Bapsy, I too was raised in the Roman Catholic Church – and education-wise went to Catholic grammar school, high school, and university; however, in all that I had very little education on the Bible….I read a quote in one of those books on cults – that stated cults are the unpaid bills of the church – from my personal experience before TWI - I would agree with that statement....I definitely was on a spiritual quest about the time someone with the way witnessed to me and without any basic knowledge of the Bible i was easily impressed with their rhetoric....one thing i did get out of the PFAL class was a love for reading the Bible...i'm sorry to report that within my first year of taking PFAL my twig leader was so annoyed with me asking questions about things in the old and new testament that he would "encourage" me to just review the PFAL material.....boring 

Concerning the Trinity vs Jesus Christ is not God – and your question Is there any clear resource regarding the subject? – in my humble opinion, I would say no for a number of reasons – most notably being that of all the biblical topics there is nothing more complex, deep, and perhaps unfathomable than the nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You might want to check out the doctrinal forum – there have been numerous discussions on this – and I’m sure you’ll glean some interesting ideas from both sides about the issues.  

That being said – I would also like to add a couple of things: since I left TWI I’ve resumed my belief in the Trinity – especially after devoting a lot of study and meditation to the gospel of John especially chapter 1 as you noted….also in considering the validity of any doctrine I like to look at the practical consequences of the doctrine (or the real life impact of following that doctrine). In that regard I’m not sure of the practical consequences of believing in the Trinity versus believing Jesus Christ is not God – other than it seems to me it sometimes can result in one side damning the other side to hell….But I could be wrong on that….in that case I’m going to hell in an Easter Basket. 

...also wanted to add - it's no big deal to me if folks are Trinitarian or not - as far as Christianity goes if they serve the Lord Jesus Christ they're ok in my book.

Edited September 13 by T-Bone 
wanted to add my wishy washy statement at the end
  0
 Quote
JayDee     8

Members
23 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Bapsy you can Google Biblical Unitarian and find some info regarding The Trinity. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it's a non-redemptive, non-salvific subject. 
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Perhaps it would be time to split off the last dozen or so posts  they really don't seem relevant to the question that Brainstormer posed. 

And Bapsy might benefit from his/her own questions being answered on a separate thread.
  0
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 15 · 
T-Bone - thanks for your comments and sharing your point of view regarding the subject and of course i found that helpful.

JayDee - I will definitely google  Biblical Unitarian and learn more about trinity, thanks for sharing.

Twinky-  Of course i will not be the only to benefit from my question or doubt regarding the TWI teachings and  doctrine,  Brainstormer  as well, because she will know for fact what kind of teaching and doctrine  her daughter is learning. We can't tell her to force Jessie to leave TWI, but with time she will understand what we experienced in there and why we left.

Talking about leaving, just 2 hrs ago, I met with two members of the TWI and they are leaving the as well because of leadership behavior is not blessing them anymore   

Well I hope Jessie to find her way out before is too late.

 
  0
 Quote
WordWolf     207

Members
14,123 posts
Posted September 16 · 
Just a casual reminder that checking the  "Biblical Unitarian" site is not exactly checking a non-twi source. That site's run by an ex-twi splinter group. So, don't be surprised if it doesn't feel the same-complete with the casual arrogance that only THEY have The Truth.  There's been some criticisms of some of their errors here, including that Momentus debacle they've nether acknowledged, repented from, nor stopped recruiting for under-the-table.  That's no guarantee anything there will automatically be error, but I recommend approaching with caution because some of their stuff IS error.

BTW, I agree that the Trinity is a non-critical subject, in that I've seen excellent and horrible examples of Christians of either side of that dividing line.
  0
 Quote
PREV
1
NEXT
Page 1 of 4  
 Reply to this topic...
Follow    4
GO TO TOPIC LISTING
About The Way
NEXT UNREAD TOPIC
Where's the EXIT?
       
Contact Us
Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.

about his drug problem.  I have no idea where Mr. Collins and the other player are today; I wish both of them well.  I have often wondered if the two players had been non- professionals, if Craig would have made such a big deal over them.  I think not.

1 hour ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

Maybe it should read VPW and Loy boy in Toyland

OMG!!  I am laughing so hard!!! 

It always amazes how there are so many witty, and funny writers at the GSC.  But Twinky, Outandabout, TLB, you guys have nailed it!!! Seriously, I felt like I had been slapped in the face when LCM gave that former football player a WOW pin!!!  I did not know the man, but it really ticked me off that he got a pin for something he did not do;  my WOW year was really hard.  When I received it at the ROA in 1979, it meant a great deal to me!!  Years later, the Way Mag(Rag?) made a big deal of how Tony Collins, and perhaps another player(?) got special WOW pins from Craig when neither player deserved them.  A few years later, I think Mr. Collins had a drug problem while he was in the NFL.  I can not remember what happened to him after that.  But I do remember that the Way Mag kept quiet about the incident.  Oh yes, TWI was a respecter of persons, very much so!!  Nitwits!!
 
 
1
GreaseSpot Cafe
  
Announcements

Log in changes   08/07/2016
With the upgrade there is no longer separate login ids and display...

Document Section   08/11/2016
With the upgrade to the new server, we ran into problems with the...
Getting Daughter/Son Out of the Way
Started by Brainstormer, September 11
85 posts in this topic
PREV
1
NEXT
Page 1 of 4  
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hello,

I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.

We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!
  1
 Quote
 
Galen     14

Members
2,278 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Welcome

In my humble opinion; never cut ties with your children.  It is good to be able to have open conversation with your child and reassure them that they are loved. If you chastise this, it may drive them away from you. Which would be a mistake.  With how things are evolving in The Way, I suspect that your child will leave on their own in less than 10 years.  You can only whitewash over corrupt leadership for so long until everyone is left openly admitting that it is all corrupt. At that stage, the fact that they can freely return to your open arms, will be a huge relief.

Galen

 
  2
 Quote
penworks     58

Members
749 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hi,

I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.

I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.

But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.

If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com

I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.

Cheers,

Charlene Edge

 
  2
 Quote
waysider     316

Members
16,042 posts
Posted September 11 (edited) · 
I was involved with The Way for several years and I've been out for several years now. Looking back, I think that discussions regarding doctrinal differences between Way beliefs and mainstream beliefs did more to strengthen my resolve than dissuade me. But, everyone's experience is unique so there's no absolute method I know of. 

I, too, was in a program that involved living with other Way people who had a similar level of commitment. Our main focus was to live a Way-prescribed lifestyle, recruit new members and support our efforts by working at secular jobs. In essence, it was what most people would call a commune. It was a religious commune,not the hippie, drug centered kind that's been portrayed by Hollywood movies and such.

One of the key methods that was used was isolation/insulation from outside influences, including family and non-Way friends. This was much easier to do back in the 1970's when I was involved. Other than time spent at our secular jobs, we had very limited contact with outside sources. We had no T.V.s, no phones, no newspapers. To be honest, there was not much free, personal time that could have been given to such things anyway. (Our sleep allowances were limited to about 5 hours a night.) The world has changed dramatically since then. People on the other side of the globe know instantly when you put mustard on your hot dog instead of ketchup. Well, maybe not that extreme but, the internet has certainly made it much, much harder to keep followers in darkness.

As others have said, keep the lines of communication open, let them know you care, and be patient. Everyone leaves when they're ready to leave, sometimes even sooner if they toss you out on your ear in the middle of the night. I hope we can answer any questions you may have. We will certainly try.

edit: spelling

Edited September 11 by waysider
  1
 Quote
krys     47

Members
4,519 posts
Posted September 11 (edited) · 
s others have already said, I, too, have been intensely involved for many years. I don't think there was much that someone could have said that would have made me leave. If you try to argue or discuss doctrinal matters, it's not likely you'll win. After all, various denominations also have different viewpoints. Also, Way believers are carefully schooled on them so they may have firmer beliefs than you do (not to insult, but to explain the level of indoctrination). I think you may have better luck appealing to her own intellect and thought processes.

If you can get her to see how special she is to God in her own right as she is with her education and in her job, for example, it may be possible to get her to stop  thinking about quitting her job now.  The Way tries to get its followers to follow blindly; at least they did when I was involved. Try to get her to think for herself. Try to point out the negative difficulties they've had. That should be easy now that we have the internet. Google around yourself and  look around some more on this web site to find some really pertinent examples of that. If she wants to "give the glory to God", she would do better to stay away from that organization.  Suggest that she not take your word for it, but check it out herself. If she gets some understanding herself, that's much better than being told what to do by your parents.

Being separated by distance is never easy. As much as possible try not to harp on this. Of course you need to discuss it; but harping on it is another thing.

Edited September 11 by krys 
correct spelling
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 11 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
(SNIP)...We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!

Hi Brainstormer and welcome to Grease Spot!

I agree with the others that keeping the communication lines open is so important ....and loving them ......and never turning your back on them.

parenting is such a challenging and often thankless job - and i think it's not until kids get to be mature adults that it begins to dawn on them how wise mom & dad really are.

as for answering your primary question ( Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?) - - with me it was finding out what a fraud the founding president was (Victor Paul Wierwille) - this i found out on my own....long story short: i was in the ministry for 12 years and going thru their leadership training program at the time (the way corps) when VPW passed away - after which some at the top began vying for power - that made me question a lot of things; but not questioning any of their doctrines so much as i started having doubts about VPW's qualifications; which led me to look into some of the claims he made - i even called the registrar's office of the Moody Bible Institute Correspondence Courses and discovered they have no record of him completing a single course - contrary to his claim that he took all they could offer on Greek or whatever....that in turn spurred me on to look into assorted systematic theologies by reputable scholars and only after that did i get into analyzing the way's doctrine and practices with at least a working knowledge of basic Christian theology.

my pet theory on how people get into or get out of questionable organizations boils down to the things in one's own head that can trigger a change of mind. Howard Gardner wrote an interesting book Changing Minds - after reading it i sort of adopted the philosophy of the SNL character Stewart Smalley mocking those self help gurus "only you can help you." i think there is some truth in that.

Changing Minds by Gardner

if i would offer any advice: don't get so hung up on doctrinal debates - instead maybe try to get the person to question or doubt what makes the teacher of those doctrines qualified to say such things....if you can get someone's critical thinking activated - - they just might see thru some of the BS themselves.
  0
 Quote
Quote this
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. The good news is that our lines of communications are open. And I believe we have shown our love and support and will continue to do so. I will look into the books also. And I've been reading as much as possible to be better informed. We will stop talking about doctrinal differences. Interestingly, my husband did bring up the credentials of Dr. Wierville. Jessie was a bit taken aback by that I believe. And we mentioned the issues of leaving a good job. So I guess we may have had some of the same ideas as all of you.
  0
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hi Brainstormer,

Great insights shared by others already. I'll echo and emphasize a point made by Waysider. Challenging doctrinal issues is almost certain to be counterproductive.

The Way built it's cult(ure) on classes intended to emotionally establish in the student's mind that all of Christianity was wrong except for how Wierwille and those who came subsequently presented it.

Keeping your relationship open with your child is crucial. Let him (or her) know you trust and believe in her (or him).

Ask your child questions that enables the person to come to the correct answer and think he/she came up with it on their own.

This is often how people who write letters to editors of newspapers succeed in getting readers to look at issues differently than they did originally.

If you can provide information from neutral sources that shows how to recognize spiritual abuse, that can be helpful. More on spiritual abuse and leaving a bad church.

I was involved with The Way for 12 years as a young adult. When your child is ready, one key will be having a good social support system available so it won't feel like walking away from Jessie's own entire network of friends.

I wish you and Jessie the best. <3

 
  0
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 11 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 7:41 PM, penworks said:
Hi,

I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.

I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.

But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.

If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com

I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.

Cheers,

Charlene Edge

Inserted links for Karl and Kristen.
  0
 Quote
WordWolf     207

Members
14,123 posts
Posted September 12 · 
God bless you. 

Here's some things you may want to know.

1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists,  Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't empathize with us much.   I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.

2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what.  Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.

3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.)   When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit.  A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored.  So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)

4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:

I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources.   I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.

Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads.  "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline.   vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi.  He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else.  After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said.  "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book.  I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline."   I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :)   Ok, links to the other threads.

Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi. 
  1
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 12 · 
  On September 12, 2016 at 1:13 AM, WordWolf said:
God bless you. 

Here's some things you may want to know.

1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists,  Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't [might not] empathize with us much.   I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.

2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what.  Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.

3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.)   When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit.  A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored.  So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)

4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:

I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources.   I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.

Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads.  "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline.   vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi.  He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else.  After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said.  "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book.  I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline."   I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :)   Ok, links to the other threads.

Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi. 

My apologies WordWolf, for the edit I made to one brief section of your comment above.
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 12 · 
Hi Brainstormer, and welcome to the Cafe.  Plenty of people here with very diverse views.  All linked by the one connection: TWI.

It would be fair to say that most, if not all, of us got involved by hearing Bible teaching of an apparent standard that we hadn't heard before.  And in its initial levels, the Bible taught is quite good.  That's because it was pinched from quite a number of people who had studied it, and were able to teach it.  The plagiarized version presented to TWI beginners was never and still is not as good.  But it may depend, from your child's point of view, on how well taught she was by other churches.  Also, at initial levels, there is a great feeling of cameraderie and fellowship with other believers.  Who, mostly, are pretty great people.

The problem arises as one gets sucked deeper and deeper in.  Way-based activities tend to displace time for non-Way related activities and spending time with friends and family.  It's slow, and subtle, and deadly.  Gentle nudges in a direction different from where she might otherwise have been going.  It's likely that Jessie will be being taught overtly or by example, that family and old friends are dangerous to her walk with God: that they will either pleasure her or pressure her from "the truth;" therefore, the more you challenge her beliefs, the more it will be seen that you are working to distract her in her walk with God, and you may even be working against God.

  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God"

I am sorry to say that that is what many of us wanted too.  The desire to know God and give glory to him is in fact the vulnerability! 

Some of us had previous good jobs and high-level professional qualifications.

I would suggest that you don't challenge doctrinal issues (which you will also find between most denominations) but the outcome of those issues and the practicalities of Way life.  Like: cutting oneself off from friends and family; not being around for family events; dropping her Christian friends (of course, they may drop her!); and, of course, not fulfilling her God-given skills and abilities by pursuing her career ambitions. 

Remind her (very gently) that Jesus hung around with all sort of disreputable people (the religious high-ups of the day condemned him for hanging out with thieves and prostitutes) - Jesus clearly "mucked in" with them - wasn't preachy and strident but drew people to him by his genuine kindness and compassion.  Jesus was only strident with hypocrites of the religious classes - not with ordinary people or his own followers.  How does Way leadership treat her?  Treat other people? How are people who don't spend a lot of time with the group treated? Or are they shunned?

The comments from people here are from a long period of time, decades; they are from people who may never have met each other to "compare notes" but who have the same sort of stories to tell; some of us were "in" for a long period. 

As others have said - be kind to her, keep the door open. 

You might want to show some interest in what she is being taught, so that you can either point out that that is what she has already learned (from the local community of Christians), or how it differs from what is taught elsewhere in the Bible.  She will probably be very hot on what it says in the epistles and maybe Acts; not so hot on and dismissive of the gospel and OT, so gently draw any points of difference from the epistles, if you can.

 
  0
 Quote
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 12 · 
Just to clarify a few things. I only mentioned that we (Jessie's parents) are Christians for context - so you'd know where we're coming from. I realize the folks here are of different faiths or no faith and we respect all of you (and value your opinion). We have friends that do not follow any religion as well as friends from about every mainstream religious group out there (and some not too mainstream). I would never judge any of them or any of you. But I think we all agree that The Way is a destructive group even though it may be filled with a lot of good people. And maybe these posts can help others as well as our family.
  1
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 13 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
Hello,

I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.

We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!

Gents

I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.

See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe

http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html

Below the webpage regarding 

Ex- The Way International

http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html

I still have others resources.
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 13 (edited) · 
Welcome, Bapsy.  Glad you got out. It's good to give; but tithing is one of many things TWI got wrong.  2002 - you have "stickability" if you've been with them since then.  And you have common sense, to have escaped now and be thinking things through for yourself.  Well done. Be cautious, though, in utilising ex-Way splinter group resources; acknowledge their provenance.  Some are more worthy than others; some are just a re-hash of old material.

Let's hope Jessie makes it through too - but in less time.

Edited September 13 by Twinky 
Ref to suggested OP's website link
  0
 Quote
chockfull     107

Members
2,356 posts
Posted September 13 · 
To me many of the vulnerabilities that a cult exploits is just youth.  A young mind is maturing at least until age 25.  Humans in their 20's also are known to be very ideal based, hopeful, looking forward to their life and changing the world, looking for a cause, looking for a circle of reliable friends, looking for support systems, looking for a deeper meaning to life.

There wasn't a whole lot that would have talked me out of a decision like the one Jessie made when I was young like that.  And you have local leaders love-bombing them and challenging logic saying "just go see for yourself and prove God in your life".  

I'm so thankful my parents stayed in contact and remained as loving as they did throughout the many years filled with moving around the country, prioritizing everything else in life over them due to my 'spirituality', throwing away opportunity after opportunity, and being very hypocritical and unloving to them.  Since I've left TWI we have a much better relationship, probably mostly due to me apologizing for being an @$$.  

If Jessie would do some research on this site, after time she would probably come to a different conclusion than the one she holds to now.  However, realistically she probably won't.  The leaders will tell her we are all possessed and disgruntled, and you don't need that negativity in your life, any lie to keep people from being freed from their grasp.  TWI is so desperate for people right now that Jessie is being used by local leadership to prove to their overseers Christian growth in their area.  They have this vision and direction quota system and all.

Unfortunately, speaking from experience, the young adult mind has a real hard time believing sincere people will lie to them and use them.  And some of these leaders are so deluded that they just push all the cult evidence to the side even though they know it and they make up more lies, like "the ministry used to be like that, but it's kinder and gentler now".   Jesus said you can't put old wine into new wineskins.  You can't force a ministry based on practices of adultery and plagiarism into morality by whitewashing the outside and "Pollyanna" ing it.

 
  0
 Quote
chockfull     107

Members
2,356 posts
Posted September 13 · 
the woman in charge of TWI - rfr - is someone who was a schoolteacher, divorced, has abandoned/ turned over her own children to Satan with no further communication with them, was known to participate in the adultery and free sex behavior in training, has hidden a same-sex adulterous relationship with the 2nd president's wife with which she ascended the presidency by including disposing of the former president, and is known to be an absolute OCD control freak.   

Whatever someone's beliefs in the Bible are and/or need for a church family are, associating with this woman in any way shape or form is probably not a good idea.

 
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 13 · 
  On September 13, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Bapsy said:
Gents

I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.

See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe

http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html

Below the webpage regarding 

Ex- The Way International

http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html

I still have others resources.

welcome to Grease Spot, Bapsy! and thanks for the links.

speaking of the tithe - i read an interesting book Decision Making and the Will of God a few years ago and it has a chapter devoted to that....it also has several other chapters that might be interesting to ex-way folks (on guidance, choosing a job, choosing a mate, etc.)

Decision Making and the Will of God on Amazon

 
  0
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.

I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.

I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.

Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?

 
  0
 Quote
Bolshevik     190

Members
4,529 posts
Posted September 13 · 
I grew up in TWI.  I was argued with for and agaisnt TWI since I learned to talk.  Doctrinal discussions and attacking leadership is a waste of time.  Usually the people a person is connected with keep them involved.  Unless someone is a nut job, which TWI has a lot of. 

Chances are someone young and with a degree will leave within a handful of years.  Twi has no depth and most folks involved are not that interesting.  I find it hard to believe anyone is involved to "learn the bible".

 
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 13 (edited) · 
  On September 13, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Bapsy said:
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.

I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.

I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.

Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?

Bapsy, I too was raised in the Roman Catholic Church – and education-wise went to Catholic grammar school, high school, and university; however, in all that I had very little education on the Bible….I read a quote in one of those books on cults – that stated cults are the unpaid bills of the church – from my personal experience before TWI - I would agree with that statement....I definitely was on a spiritual quest about the time someone with the way witnessed to me and without any basic knowledge of the Bible i was easily impressed with their rhetoric....one thing i did get out of the PFAL class was a love for reading the Bible...i'm sorry to report that within my first year of taking PFAL my twig leader was so annoyed with me asking questions about things in the old and new testament that he would "encourage" me to just review the PFAL material.....boring 

Concerning the Trinity vs Jesus Christ is not God – and your question Is there any clear resource regarding the subject? – in my humble opinion, I would say no for a number of reasons – most notably being that of all the biblical topics there is nothing more complex, deep, and perhaps unfathomable than the nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You might want to check out the doctrinal forum – there have been numerous discussions on this – and I’m sure you’ll glean some interesting ideas from both sides about the issues.  

That being said – I would also like to add a couple of things: since I left TWI I’ve resumed my belief in the Trinity – especially after devoting a lot of study and meditation to the gospel of John especially chapter 1 as you noted….also in considering the validity of any doctrine I like to look at the practical consequences of the doctrine (or the real life impact of following that doctrine). In that regard I’m not sure of the practical consequences of believing in the Trinity versus believing Jesus Christ is not God – other than it seems to me it sometimes can result in one side damning the other side to hell….But I could be wrong on that….in that case I’m going to hell in an Easter Basket. 

...also wanted to add - it's no big deal to me if folks are Trinitarian or not - as far as Christianity goes if they serve the Lord Jesus Christ they're ok in my book.

Edited September 13 by T-Bone 
wanted to add my wishy washy statement at the end
  0
 Quote
JayDee     8

Members
23 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Bapsy you can Google Biblical Unitarian and find some info regarding The Trinity. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it's a non-redemptive, non-salvific subject. 
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Perhaps it would be time to split off the last dozen or so posts  they really don't seem relevant to the question that Brainstormer posed. 

And Bapsy might benefit from his/her own questions being answered on a separate thread.
  0
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 15 · 
T-Bone - thanks for your comments and sharing your point of view regarding the subject and of course i found that helpful.

JayDee - I will definitely google  Biblical Unitarian and learn more about trinity, thanks for sharing.

Twinky-  Of course i will not be the only to benefit from my question or doubt regarding the TWI teachings and  doctrine,  Brainstormer  as well, because she will know for fact what kind of teaching and doctrine  her daughter is learning. We can't tell her to force Jessie to leave TWI, but with time she will understand what we experienced in there and why we left.

Talking about leaving, just 2 hrs ago, I met with two members of the TWI and they are leaving the as well because of leadership behavior is not blessing them anymore   

Well I hope Jessie to find her way out before is too late.

 
  0
 Quote
WordWolf     207

Members
14,123 posts
Posted September 16 · 
Just a casual reminder that checking the  "Biblical Unitarian" site is not exactly checking a non-twi source. That site's run by an ex-twi splinter group. So, don't be surprised if it doesn't feel the same-complete with the casual arrogance that only THEY have The Truth.  There's been some criticisms of some of their errors here, including that Momentus debacle they've nether acknowledged, repented from, nor stopped recruiting for under-the-table.  That's no guarantee anything there will automatically be error, but I recommend approaching with caution because some of their stuff IS error.

BTW, I agree that the Trinity is a non-critical subject, in that I've seen excellent and horrible examples of Christians of either side of that dividing line.
  0
 Quote
PREV
1
NEXT
Page 1 of 4  
 Reply to this topic...
Follow    4
GO TO TOPIC LISTING
About The Way
NEXT UNREAD TOPIC
Where's the EXIT?
       
Contact Us
Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.

about his drug problem.  I have no idea where Mr. Collins and the other player are today; I wish both of them well.  I have often wondered if the two players had been non- professionals, if Craig would have made such a big deal over them.  I think not.

1 hour ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

Maybe it should read VPW and Loy boy in Toyland

OMG!!  I am laughing so hard!!! 

It always amazes how there are so many witty, and funny writers at the GSC.  But Twinky, Outandabout, TLB, you guys have nailed it!!! Seriously, I felt like I had been slapped in the face when LCM gave that former football player a WOW pin!!!  I did not know the man, but it really ticked me off that he got a pin for something he did not do;  my WOW year was really hard.  When I received it at the ROA in 1979, it meant a great deal to me!!  Years later, the Way Mag(Rag?) made a big deal of how Tony Collins, and perhaps another player(?) got special WOW pins from Craig when neither player deserved them.  A few years later, I think Mr. Collins had a drug problem while he was in the NFL.  I can not remember what happened to him after that.  But I do remember that the Way Mag kept quiet about the incident.  Oh yes, TWI was a respecter of persons, very much so!!  Nitwits!!
 
 
1
GreaseSpot Cafe
  
Announcements

Log in changes   08/07/2016
With the upgrade there is no longer separate login ids and display...

Document Section   08/11/2016
Wi

1 hour ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

Maybe it should read VPW and Loy boy in Toyland

OMG!!  I am laughing so hard!!! 

It always amazes how there are so many witty, and funny writers at the GSC.  But Twinky, Outandabout, TLB, you guys have nailed it!!! Seriously, I felt like I had been slapped in the face when LCM gave that former football player a WOW pin!!!  I did not know the man, but it really ticked me off that he got a pin for something he did not do;  my WOW year was really hard.  When I received it at the ROA in 1979, it meant a great deal to me!!  Years later, the Way Mag(Rag?) made a big deal of how Tony Collins, and perhaps another player(?) got special WOW pins from Craig when neither player deserved them.  A few years later, I think Mr. Collins had a drug problem while he was in the NFL.  I can not remember what happened to him after that.  But I do remember that the Way Mag kept quiet about the incident.  Oh yes, TWI was a respecter of persons, very much so!!  Nitwits!!
 
 
1
GreaseSpot Cafe
  
Announcements

Log in changes   08/07/2016
With the upgrade there is no longer separate login ids and display...

Document Section   08/11/2016
With the upgrade to the new server, we ran into problems with the...
Getting Daughter/Son Out of the Way
Started by Brainstormer, September 11
85 posts in this topic
PREV
1
NEXT
Page 1 of 4  
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hello,

I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.

We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!
  1
 Quote
 
Galen     14

Members
2,278 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Welcome

In my humble opinion; never cut ties with your children.  It is good to be able to have open conversation with your child and reassure them that they are loved. If you chastise this, it may drive them away from you. Which would be a mistake.  With how things are evolving in The Way, I suspect that your child will leave on their own in less than 10 years.  You can only whitewash over corrupt leadership for so long until everyone is left openly admitting that it is all corrupt. At that stage, the fact that they can freely return to your open arms, will be a huge relief.

Galen

 
  2
 Quote
penworks     58

Members
749 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hi,

I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.

I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.

But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.

If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com

I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.

Cheers,

Charlene Edge

 
  2
 Quote
waysider     316

Members
16,042 posts
Posted September 11 (edited) · 
I was involved with The Way for several years and I've been out for several years now. Looking back, I think that discussions regarding doctrinal differences between Way beliefs and mainstream beliefs did more to strengthen my resolve than dissuade me. But, everyone's experience is unique so there's no absolute method I know of. 

I, too, was in a program that involved living with other Way people who had a similar level of commitment. Our main focus was to live a Way-prescribed lifestyle, recruit new members and support our efforts by working at secular jobs. In essence, it was what most people would call a commune. It was a religious commune,not the hippie, drug centered kind that's been portrayed by Hollywood movies and such.

One of the key methods that was used was isolation/insulation from outside influences, including family and non-Way friends. This was much easier to do back in the 1970's when I was involved. Other than time spent at our secular jobs, we had very limited contact with outside sources. We had no T.V.s, no phones, no newspapers. To be honest, there was not much free, personal time that could have been given to such things anyway. (Our sleep allowances were limited to about 5 hours a night.) The world has changed dramatically since then. People on the other side of the globe know instantly when you put mustard on your hot dog instead of ketchup. Well, maybe not that extreme but, the internet has certainly made it much, much harder to keep followers in darkness.

As others have said, keep the lines of communication open, let them know you care, and be patient. Everyone leaves when they're ready to leave, sometimes even sooner if they toss you out on your ear in the middle of the night. I hope we can answer any questions you may have. We will certainly try.

edit: spelling

Edited September 11 by waysider
  1
 Quote
krys     47

Members
4,519 posts
Posted September 11 (edited) · 
s others have already said, I, too, have been intensely involved for many years. I don't think there was much that someone could have said that would have made me leave. If you try to argue or discuss doctrinal matters, it's not likely you'll win. After all, various denominations also have different viewpoints. Also, Way believers are carefully schooled on them so they may have firmer beliefs than you do (not to insult, but to explain the level of indoctrination). I think you may have better luck appealing to her own intellect and thought processes.

If you can get her to see how special she is to God in her own right as she is with her education and in her job, for example, it may be possible to get her to stop  thinking about quitting her job now.  The Way tries to get its followers to follow blindly; at least they did when I was involved. Try to get her to think for herself. Try to point out the negative difficulties they've had. That should be easy now that we have the internet. Google around yourself and  look around some more on this web site to find some really pertinent examples of that. If she wants to "give the glory to God", she would do better to stay away from that organization.  Suggest that she not take your word for it, but check it out herself. If she gets some understanding herself, that's much better than being told what to do by your parents.

Being separated by distance is never easy. As much as possible try not to harp on this. Of course you need to discuss it; but harping on it is another thing.

Edited September 11 by krys 
correct spelling
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 11 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
(SNIP)...We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!

Hi Brainstormer and welcome to Grease Spot!

I agree with the others that keeping the communication lines open is so important ....and loving them ......and never turning your back on them.

parenting is such a challenging and often thankless job - and i think it's not until kids get to be mature adults that it begins to dawn on them how wise mom & dad really are.

as for answering your primary question ( Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?) - - with me it was finding out what a fraud the founding president was (Victor Paul Wierwille) - this i found out on my own....long story short: i was in the ministry for 12 years and going thru their leadership training program at the time (the way corps) when VPW passed away - after which some at the top began vying for power - that made me question a lot of things; but not questioning any of their doctrines so much as i started having doubts about VPW's qualifications; which led me to look into some of the claims he made - i even called the registrar's office of the Moody Bible Institute Correspondence Courses and discovered they have no record of him completing a single course - contrary to his claim that he took all they could offer on Greek or whatever....that in turn spurred me on to look into assorted systematic theologies by reputable scholars and only after that did i get into analyzing the way's doctrine and practices with at least a working knowledge of basic Christian theology.

my pet theory on how people get into or get out of questionable organizations boils down to the things in one's own head that can trigger a change of mind. Howard Gardner wrote an interesting book Changing Minds - after reading it i sort of adopted the philosophy of the SNL character Stewart Smalley mocking those self help gurus "only you can help you." i think there is some truth in that.

Changing Minds by Gardner

if i would offer any advice: don't get so hung up on doctrinal debates - instead maybe try to get the person to question or doubt what makes the teacher of those doctrines qualified to say such things....if you can get someone's critical thinking activated - - they just might see thru some of the BS themselves.
  0
 Quote
Quote this
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. The good news is that our lines of communications are open. And I believe we have shown our love and support and will continue to do so. I will look into the books also. And I've been reading as much as possible to be better informed. We will stop talking about doctrinal differences. Interestingly, my husband did bring up the credentials of Dr. Wierville. Jessie was a bit taken aback by that I believe. And we mentioned the issues of leaving a good job. So I guess we may have had some of the same ideas as all of you.
  0
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 11 · 
Hi Brainstormer,

Great insights shared by others already. I'll echo and emphasize a point made by Waysider. Challenging doctrinal issues is almost certain to be counterproductive.

The Way built it's cult(ure) on classes intended to emotionally establish in the student's mind that all of Christianity was wrong except for how Wierwille and those who came subsequently presented it.

Keeping your relationship open with your child is crucial. Let him (or her) know you trust and believe in her (or him).

Ask your child questions that enables the person to come to the correct answer and think he/she came up with it on their own.

This is often how people who write letters to editors of newspapers succeed in getting readers to look at issues differently than they did originally.

If you can provide information from neutral sources that shows how to recognize spiritual abuse, that can be helpful. More on spiritual abuse and leaving a bad church.

I was involved with The Way for 12 years as a young adult. When your child is ready, one key will be having a good social support system available so it won't feel like walking away from Jessie's own entire network of friends.

I wish you and Jessie the best. <3

 
  0
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 11 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 7:41 PM, penworks said:
Hi,

I am a survivor of seventeen years with The Way (1970 - 1987). I agree with Galen's advice about keeping yourself available to your grown child. If you are interested in getting more help besides from posters here, there is a source I would like to recommend: The International Cultic Studies Association's website. There are many articles on that site that you might find helpful. Check it out. I have been published in their magazine, ICSA Today, and I've met the Executive Director who is a counselor and very caring person. It's a good place to pay attention to.

I was in The Way for seventeen years and have a book coming out about my experiences, especially with The Way's biblical research, titled, My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Other books already published about The Way by former members include two by authors Karl Kahler and Kristen Skedgell. You can find them on Amazon. Those books may be helpful to you as background knowledge about The Way.

But the main thing is to keep the channel of communication open with your son. No matter what happens. Love is powerful.

If you want to, you can email me through the Contact page on my website: http://charleneedge.com

I send you all best wishes for peace and love and for getting the help you need.

Cheers,

Charlene Edge

Inserted links for Karl and Kristen.
  0
 Quote
WordWolf     207

Members
14,123 posts
Posted September 12 · 
God bless you. 

Here's some things you may want to know.

1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists,  Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't empathize with us much.   I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.

2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what.  Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.

3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.)   When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit.  A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored.  So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)

4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:

I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources.   I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.

Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads.  "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline.   vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi.  He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else.  After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said.  "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book.  I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline."   I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :)   Ok, links to the other threads.

Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi. 
  1
 Quote
Rocky     520

Members
10,108 posts
Posted September 12 · 
  On September 12, 2016 at 1:13 AM, WordWolf said:
God bless you. 

Here's some things you may want to know.

1) This messageboard has Christians of a variety of beliefs, as well as non-Christians and atheists,  Almost all will agree that getting someone out of twi is something they'd like to help if possible-or at least agree with. If you can only relate to Christians with your exact self-same beliefs, you won't [might not] empathize with us much.   I suspect you can at least get useful information from those of us you'd be comfortable labeling as errant Christians of one form or another, so I'll offer what advice and information I can.

2) Last we heard, twi has an employee read all the posts here, so assume they're reading this thread and trying to figure out who and what.  Some of us (like me) will be willing to communicate with you by private messages here (pm's) in order to keep "the WayGB" (our nickname for their thought police) from reading everything.

3) Lots of people reported that they were recommended to cut all ties with all family who didn't join-and only contact them to invite them to events or try to get them to pay for things. (No, I'm not making that up. They recommend no savings for college/a house/retirement, and suggest begging "unbeliever" family members for money for college as well as discouraging college.)   When many of us woke up, having cut all ties with our family and friends made it harder to leave twi, so keeping avenues of communication open-and pathos- will assist when she decides to exit.  A lot of this was harder before the internet, but lines of communication can remain open so long as she doesn't live "on-grounds" at their headquarters, where communication is crippled AND monitored.  So, yes, stay in touch and consistent that you can be contacted no matter what. (Remember the "Prodigal Son"/"Forgiving Father" if you need a motivation,)

4) twi, like all thought-control groups, has its own little vocabulary, some of which changes over the decades. Some of it is documented here:

I'd recommend lots of reading-up. We have lots of resources.   I personally recommend some threads meant specifically for new arrivals. (I'm also partial to them because I started them-but I started them because I thought new arrivals could really, really use them.

Besides the thread above, I recommend the "Wonderland" threads.  "The Way-Living in Wonderland" took a look at twi's own promotional book, "The Way-Living in Love", with lots of commentary and corrections, and ended with attempts at a twi timeline.   vpw/ victor paul wierwille was the man who founded twi.  He chose his successor, lcm/loy craig martindale- as much for his willingness to follow commands to jump off a cliff as anything else.  After lcm took over, he released his own book, "VP and Me." It contained a lot of details of vpw's life when the cameras were off-accidentally exposing some of the asinine things he's said.  "VP and Me in Wonderland" discussed that book.  I also separated out the vpw timeline as a separate thread for easy reading, in "A VPW HIstorical Timeline."   I think you'll have even more questions after reading through those threads, but they'll be better questions. :)   Ok, links to the other threads.

Feel free to contact me by pm's with questions of every kind even vaguely related to twi. 

My apologies WordWolf, for the edit I made to one brief section of your comment above.
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 12 · 
Hi Brainstormer, and welcome to the Cafe.  Plenty of people here with very diverse views.  All linked by the one connection: TWI.

It would be fair to say that most, if not all, of us got involved by hearing Bible teaching of an apparent standard that we hadn't heard before.  And in its initial levels, the Bible taught is quite good.  That's because it was pinched from quite a number of people who had studied it, and were able to teach it.  The plagiarized version presented to TWI beginners was never and still is not as good.  But it may depend, from your child's point of view, on how well taught she was by other churches.  Also, at initial levels, there is a great feeling of cameraderie and fellowship with other believers.  Who, mostly, are pretty great people.

The problem arises as one gets sucked deeper and deeper in.  Way-based activities tend to displace time for non-Way related activities and spending time with friends and family.  It's slow, and subtle, and deadly.  Gentle nudges in a direction different from where she might otherwise have been going.  It's likely that Jessie will be being taught overtly or by example, that family and old friends are dangerous to her walk with God: that they will either pleasure her or pressure her from "the truth;" therefore, the more you challenge her beliefs, the more it will be seen that you are working to distract her in her walk with God, and you may even be working against God.

  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God"

I am sorry to say that that is what many of us wanted too.  The desire to know God and give glory to him is in fact the vulnerability! 

Some of us had previous good jobs and high-level professional qualifications.

I would suggest that you don't challenge doctrinal issues (which you will also find between most denominations) but the outcome of those issues and the practicalities of Way life.  Like: cutting oneself off from friends and family; not being around for family events; dropping her Christian friends (of course, they may drop her!); and, of course, not fulfilling her God-given skills and abilities by pursuing her career ambitions. 

Remind her (very gently) that Jesus hung around with all sort of disreputable people (the religious high-ups of the day condemned him for hanging out with thieves and prostitutes) - Jesus clearly "mucked in" with them - wasn't preachy and strident but drew people to him by his genuine kindness and compassion.  Jesus was only strident with hypocrites of the religious classes - not with ordinary people or his own followers.  How does Way leadership treat her?  Treat other people? How are people who don't spend a lot of time with the group treated? Or are they shunned?

The comments from people here are from a long period of time, decades; they are from people who may never have met each other to "compare notes" but who have the same sort of stories to tell; some of us were "in" for a long period. 

As others have said - be kind to her, keep the door open. 

You might want to show some interest in what she is being taught, so that you can either point out that that is what she has already learned (from the local community of Christians), or how it differs from what is taught elsewhere in the Bible.  She will probably be very hot on what it says in the epistles and maybe Acts; not so hot on and dismissive of the gospel and OT, so gently draw any points of difference from the epistles, if you can.

 
  0
 Quote
Brainstormer     6

Members
11 posts
Posted September 12 · 
Just to clarify a few things. I only mentioned that we (Jessie's parents) are Christians for context - so you'd know where we're coming from. I realize the folks here are of different faiths or no faith and we respect all of you (and value your opinion). We have friends that do not follow any religion as well as friends from about every mainstream religious group out there (and some not too mainstream). I would never judge any of them or any of you. But I think we all agree that The Way is a destructive group even though it may be filled with a lot of good people. And maybe these posts can help others as well as our family.
  1
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 13 · 
  On September 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Brainstormer said:
Hello,

I recently found this site and I am hoping that there are some people who can help me. I will attempt to keep this as anonymous as possible by saying that I have a young adult child (who I will refer to as Jessie) who is involved in The Way. Jessie met a friend whose parents are somewhere in the leadership and that's how it started. Jessie really liked learning more about the bible and took some classes. My husband and I are Christians and we thought that Jessie was attending a bible study group. Not until we did more research did we realize that the Way is a cult. Jessie has never been in trouble. Nor would Jessie have any of the vulnerabilities of joining a cult.  Jessie really wants to just "give glory to God" and does not realize that this group is destructive and incorrect about important theology. Jessie has not shut us out; we have a very close family relationship. But we are concerned about Jessie getting more entrenched. Jessie wants to go on an outreach program (forgive me that I don't know all the appropriate terminology) where you live in a group somewhere and work a part time job and then do Way things the remaining time. Jessie has a college degree and a good job that Jessie would be leaving. Not a good move from our vantage point.

We are looking for any advice you can give us on how we can get Jessie out. We have had a couple of long discussions with Jessie focusing mainly on the Trinity, speaking in tongues, and salvation. Jessie didn't attack us or condemn us for asking these questions. But I know that we are a long way from where we want to be. So if anyone can offer suggestions / help / advice, we would greatly appreciate it. Primary question: Was there anything that anyone could have done or said to get you to leave?

Thank You!

Gents

I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.

See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe

http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html

Below the webpage regarding 

Ex- The Way International

http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html

I still have others resources.
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 13 (edited) · 
Welcome, Bapsy.  Glad you got out. It's good to give; but tithing is one of many things TWI got wrong.  2002 - you have "stickability" if you've been with them since then.  And you have common sense, to have escaped now and be thinking things through for yourself.  Well done. Be cautious, though, in utilising ex-Way splinter group resources; acknowledge their provenance.  Some are more worthy than others; some are just a re-hash of old material.

Let's hope Jessie makes it through too - but in less time.

Edited September 13 by Twinky 
Ref to suggested OP's website link
  0
 Quote
chockfull     107

Members
2,356 posts
Posted September 13 · 
To me many of the vulnerabilities that a cult exploits is just youth.  A young mind is maturing at least until age 25.  Humans in their 20's also are known to be very ideal based, hopeful, looking forward to their life and changing the world, looking for a cause, looking for a circle of reliable friends, looking for support systems, looking for a deeper meaning to life.

There wasn't a whole lot that would have talked me out of a decision like the one Jessie made when I was young like that.  And you have local leaders love-bombing them and challenging logic saying "just go see for yourself and prove God in your life".  

I'm so thankful my parents stayed in contact and remained as loving as they did throughout the many years filled with moving around the country, prioritizing everything else in life over them due to my 'spirituality', throwing away opportunity after opportunity, and being very hypocritical and unloving to them.  Since I've left TWI we have a much better relationship, probably mostly due to me apologizing for being an @$$.  

If Jessie would do some research on this site, after time she would probably come to a different conclusion than the one she holds to now.  However, realistically she probably won't.  The leaders will tell her we are all possessed and disgruntled, and you don't need that negativity in your life, any lie to keep people from being freed from their grasp.  TWI is so desperate for people right now that Jessie is being used by local leadership to prove to their overseers Christian growth in their area.  They have this vision and direction quota system and all.

Unfortunately, speaking from experience, the young adult mind has a real hard time believing sincere people will lie to them and use them.  And some of these leaders are so deluded that they just push all the cult evidence to the side even though they know it and they make up more lies, like "the ministry used to be like that, but it's kinder and gentler now".   Jesus said you can't put old wine into new wineskins.  You can't force a ministry based on practices of adultery and plagiarism into morality by whitewashing the outside and "Pollyanna" ing it.

 
  0
 Quote
chockfull     107

Members
2,356 posts
Posted September 13 · 
the woman in charge of TWI - rfr - is someone who was a schoolteacher, divorced, has abandoned/ turned over her own children to Satan with no further communication with them, was known to participate in the adultery and free sex behavior in training, has hidden a same-sex adulterous relationship with the 2nd president's wife with which she ascended the presidency by including disposing of the former president, and is known to be an absolute OCD control freak.   

Whatever someone's beliefs in the Bible are and/or need for a church family are, associating with this woman in any way shape or form is probably not a good idea.

 
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 13 · 
  On September 13, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Bapsy said:
Gents

I have been with TWI since 2002 and kind enjoy the biblical studies, but with time i experienced weird behaviors from members of TWI and Leadership. Now as of this year i decide to step out from religious, churches, denominations and etcs.

See the things is that people are make it hard and complicating the word of God on their own benefits. For me i'd say give sometime and she will fig out the truth and where to go. One of the things that I don't agree is that TITHE is mandatory from God. For me all the churches that demand tithe is FAKE because that's not true. I gone through research and bible verses regarding this Regarding the Tithe

http://www.freechristianministry.com/tithe.html

Below the webpage regarding 

Ex- The Way International

http://www.freechristianministry.com/TheWay.html

I still have others resources.

welcome to Grease Spot, Bapsy! and thanks for the links.

speaking of the tithe - i read an interesting book Decision Making and the Will of God a few years ago and it has a chapter devoted to that....it also has several other chapters that might be interesting to ex-way folks (on guidance, choosing a job, choosing a mate, etc.)

Decision Making and the Will of God on Amazon

 
  0
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.

I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.

I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.

Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?

 
  0
 Quote
Bolshevik     190

Members
4,529 posts
Posted September 13 · 
I grew up in TWI.  I was argued with for and agaisnt TWI since I learned to talk.  Doctrinal discussions and attacking leadership is a waste of time.  Usually the people a person is connected with keep them involved.  Unless someone is a nut job, which TWI has a lot of. 

Chances are someone young and with a degree will leave within a handful of years.  Twi has no depth and most folks involved are not that interesting.  I find it hard to believe anyone is involved to "learn the bible".

 
  0
 Quote
T-Bone     125

Members
3,110 posts
Posted September 13 (edited) · 
  On September 13, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Bapsy said:
Hi T-Bone! thanks for your few words and for sharing the link of the interesting book.

I needed to be on forums sites like this ''Grease Spot'' where I can share and consolidate my biblical knowledge with members. I have experienced a lot of things in TWI but also somehow they had good teaching as well that's why I'm not pointing the fingers, there are many others cult or church with unacceptable behavior and teachings and I encourage people just to seek the truth and God's will (John 8:32, Romans 12:2), that will set you free instead of pointing fingers.

I was born and raised on Catholic church and with time, suddenly I stop attending and join twi where I was attending household fellowship with way members. In Catholic I was taught about trinity ( Tri-gods - Father, son and Spirit) and TWI teaches one God and Jesus Christ is son of God, others religious teach that Jesus Christ is God and they often refer to I John 1:1-18.

Is there any clear resource regarding the subject?

Bapsy, I too was raised in the Roman Catholic Church – and education-wise went to Catholic grammar school, high school, and university; however, in all that I had very little education on the Bible….I read a quote in one of those books on cults – that stated cults are the unpaid bills of the church – from my personal experience before TWI - I would agree with that statement....I definitely was on a spiritual quest about the time someone with the way witnessed to me and without any basic knowledge of the Bible i was easily impressed with their rhetoric....one thing i did get out of the PFAL class was a love for reading the Bible...i'm sorry to report that within my first year of taking PFAL my twig leader was so annoyed with me asking questions about things in the old and new testament that he would "encourage" me to just review the PFAL material.....boring 

Concerning the Trinity vs Jesus Christ is not God – and your question Is there any clear resource regarding the subject? – in my humble opinion, I would say no for a number of reasons – most notably being that of all the biblical topics there is nothing more complex, deep, and perhaps unfathomable than the nature of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You might want to check out the doctrinal forum – there have been numerous discussions on this – and I’m sure you’ll glean some interesting ideas from both sides about the issues.  

That being said – I would also like to add a couple of things: since I left TWI I’ve resumed my belief in the Trinity – especially after devoting a lot of study and meditation to the gospel of John especially chapter 1 as you noted….also in considering the validity of any doctrine I like to look at the practical consequences of the doctrine (or the real life impact of following that doctrine). In that regard I’m not sure of the practical consequences of believing in the Trinity versus believing Jesus Christ is not God – other than it seems to me it sometimes can result in one side damning the other side to hell….But I could be wrong on that….in that case I’m going to hell in an Easter Basket. 

...also wanted to add - it's no big deal to me if folks are Trinitarian or not - as far as Christianity goes if they serve the Lord Jesus Christ they're ok in my book.

Edited September 13 by T-Bone 
wanted to add my wishy washy statement at the end
  0
 Quote
JayDee     8

Members
23 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Bapsy you can Google Biblical Unitarian and find some info regarding The Trinity. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it's a non-redemptive, non-salvific subject. 
  0
 Quote
Twinky     155

Members
3,807 posts
Posted September 13 · 
Perhaps it would be time to split off the last dozen or so posts  they really don't seem relevant to the question that Brainstormer posed. 

And Bapsy might benefit from his/her own questions being answered on a separate thread.
  0
 Quote
Bapsy     2

Members
9 posts
Posted September 15 · 
T-Bone - thanks for your comments and sharing your point of view regarding the subject and of course i found that helpful.

JayDee - I will definitely google  Biblical Unitarian and learn more about trinity, thanks for sharing.

Twinky-  Of course i will not be the only to benefit from my question or doubt regarding the TWI teachings and  doctrine,  Brainstormer  as well, because she will know for fact what kind of teaching and doctrine  her daughter is learning. We can't tell her to force Jessie to leave TWI, but with time she will understand what we experienced in there and why we left.

Talking about leaving, just 2 hrs ago, I met with two members of the TWI and they are leaving the as well because of leadership behavior is not blessing them anymore   

Well I hope Jessie to find her way out before is too late.

 
  0
 Quote
WordWolf     207

Members
14,123 posts
Posted September 16 · 
Just a casual reminder that checking the  "Biblical Unitarian" site is not exactly checking a non-twi source. That site's run by an ex-twi splinter group. So, don't be surprised if it doesn't feel the same-complete with the casual arrogance that only THEY have The Truth.  There's been some criticisms of some of their errors here, including that Momentus debacle they've nether acknowledged, repented from, nor stopped recruiting for under-the-table.  That's no guarantee anything there will automatically be error, but I recommend approaching with caution because some of their stuff IS error.

BTW, I agree that the Trinity is a non-critical subject, in that I've seen excellent and horrible examples of Christians of either side of that dividing line.
  0
 Quote
PREV
1
NEXT
Page 1 of 4  
 Reply to this topic...
Follow    4
GO TO TOPIC LISTING
About The Way
NEXT UNREAD TOPIC
Where's the EXIT?
       
Contact Us
Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.

about his drug problem.  I have no idea where Mr. Collins and the other player are today; I wish both of them well.  I have often wondered if the two players had been non- professionals, if Craig would have made such a big deal over them.  I think not.

23 hours ago, waysider said:

HeHe! I posted that in reference to a famous quote VPW made on his deathbed...."I wish I were the man I knew to be."

I know!!!  

Oh Lord, did VPW ever crack open a real book?  Did he ever do anything honest in his life?  I guess back when VPW was young, he could get away with having all those phony degrees.  But, I think if someone tried something like that today, people could get all types of information from the Internet.  

On August 4, 2016 at 9:19 PM, WordWolf said:

By chance, I came across a distinction between degrees.

A Doctorate of Divinity is a different degree than a Doctorate in Theology.

vpw, naturally, led people to believe he had a stack of degrees.

Does anyone have, at hand, an actual "official" listing of what his degrees were?

What was he, supposedly, a Doctor OF? Theology? Divinity? Something else?

A separate question, of course, will be how "official" Pike's Peak was as a

degree-granting institution.

Wow WW, I did not know that!  Is one better than the other, or are they equal?  I think VPW had an advanced degree in Cow Sheet!

On August 18, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Rocky said:

Excellent example. It's also the reason why John Grisham is one of my favorite authors.

Yeah!!  I too, am a big fan of John Grisham.  I can say this today, but years ago, I was aghast at what we were told in PFAL; put away your worldly books, and read nothing but PFAL books.  Or something along those lines.  Even back in 1978, when I first took the class, I thought that was garbage.  No way was I going to let anyone dictate to me what I did, or did not read.

On April 12, 2012 at 5:23 PM, skyrider said:

My, oh my......is someone trying to "mark and avoid" one's past?

Here this twice-divorced, alleged lesbian is now the president of wierwille's twi.....WOWSERS. Could wierwille have possibly imagined such a scenario? Here, his male-dominated corporation is NOW being run by Rosalie and Donna.....and Martindale, Geer, Cummxns, Townsend and others are long gone. Poetic justice ain't it?

Ms. Shumate doesn't go back to her maiden name. She lays claim to the name of the man she married out of high school. Why is that? Not sure I've ever heard of someone doing that.

So, the name Shumate and kids have been stricken from cognizance and conversation.....as if, they never existed. The English teacher takes pfal and starts a new life. Signs up for the Family Corps and life starts anew. No WOW year. No building years "in the Word." Nope. No time to waste. Need to separate from the past and climb the corporate ladder......fast. Go Corps. Go Staff. Never leave. Yeah......"teacher credentials" put her in the fast lane of twi.

Nothing in twi was what it seemed.

Wierwille was a plagarist.

Martindale was an arrogant jock.

Geer was a psycho opportunist.

Townsxnd was a leech.

Cummxns was a tool.

Rosalie is a sly fox.

How can Rosie and Donna go thru 

life knowing what evil they did to so many people?  But to get to the top of the mountain, they sold their souls to the Devil, as the new person in charge did; the man from Canada.  I will never, never understand this type of sick, warped-out behavior.  Are people who practice this type of evil, twisted as kids, or did they become this way due to what they learned from TWI?  For years, I thought that perhaps I needed to harden my heart to do The Word!! Finally, I am beginning to understand that God loves the pure in heart; I just wanted to know God, and to help others if I could.  To me, moving The Word meant increasing in my knowledge  of the the love God has for me; it seems like TWI, along with other religions, made something beautiful , into something wicked. 

The reason?  To make money for

worldly pleasures, IMO. 

3 hours ago, royal-gorge said:

My name is Randy George.  I am a 16th Corps grad and spent my interim year in 1986 on staff at Headquarters and later worked on staff from 1992 - 1999 in the MIS Department and sang in the Chorus Choir during that time.  I left The Way in 2001 and now live in Orlando Florida with my wife Cathy and our three boys, all now adults 21 years and up.   A number of years ago I posted links here of home videos I made during that time but the website I posted them to has since disappeared.  I have uploaded over two hours of video to YouTube of both the original content and other content that I previously had not posted anywhere.  The two videos are marked "unlisted" which means that the only way you will be able to find them is using these links.  I am posting the links here with the hope that some will find the content meaningful.  Anyone who has been in The Way will be able to appreciate the people and places that I have documented in these videos.  If you have any questions or suggestions please drop me an email at rag421@juno.com.  Enjoy!

 

Randy

 

Table of contents attached and also included in the description on YouTube.

 

Part 1: https://youtu.be/uqAtvQfhb0A

Part 2: https://youtu.be/bfmhDJQ567U

The Way Home Videos - Table of Contents parts 1 and 2.docx

Randy, the little kids in these movies are so cute; I wanted to hug, and kiss them!! But, at the same time, I felt sorry for them.  I wonder how their lives were affected by their time in TWI.  

On March 25, 2016 at 0:08 AM, CollateralDamage said:

<takes a seat and pulls out a menu>

Hello All-

There's quite a bit to unpack from 30 years. Bare with my rambling thoughts as they all get down.

A third-generation "legacy", I only knew TWI as truth absolute. A child of the 80's, I remember growing up and having The Way being the only way. I took each class in the entire class series the exact week I was eligible, and repeated every chance I could. I only knew LCM as the fount-head of all things godly, and worshipped with (at) him through the birth of the new class. I soldiered on through his fall and stood behind my identity as a chosen part of the faithful remnant throughout the early 2000's. I pursued a degree and lead fellowships, certain I held forth what I knew to be the epicenter of the spiritual world. Once I got close to graduation, the promise of getting a job became VERY real. In a market the began to shrivel, I went from interview to interview, each time putting in hours of deliberate, thoughtful prayer and reflection, certain that the God I knew dwelt in my fellowships and that I was told would never let any wrong befall would come through in the clutch. Each time, nothing. Each time, disappointment. Each time, words came from those more seasoned as "Renew Your Mind", "It's not the spiritually best for YOU!", "God's got something bigger for YOU!". This was the first time I needed to prove God had my back. Long story short, I cobbled together enough to get by, but nothing close to the Eph 3:20 I was told time and time again.

I got married, to an amazing and supportive spouse, who left her church to join up. She realized if she wanted tot be with me, she had to drink the Koolaid, and drink she did. She practically did a keg stand with that Hawaiian punch. Together, we weathered many situations that were far from the rosy scenes painted on STS tapes (or CDs or VHSs). Real life was hard as hell, and the God of the lectern and the magazine was not as quick to come through. There was always an explanation, mind you, but should not have to be this hard. "Maybe we're not studying enough. Maybe and hour daily is just a start.". "Are we giving enough? We're at 20%, but could we do more to prove our commitment to God and not our paycheck". We ABSed our meager earnings, lived in apartments, drove our terrible, leaky, beaten cars, and gladly taught others on how much God loved us and would provide. Any positive event in life was championed as proof of TWI's system. It began to seem like a lens that made all the bad not their fault and any positive thing their cause. Perspective.

Fast forward to a fourth generation being born. Numerous requests from insiders to go on Staff and change from within. By this time, my life had changed. The grind of finally getting (and keeping) a real job meant hard work. I began to feel like everything in the ministry was a motion. Same old collaterals. The articles in the magazine were SOOOO predictable, as were the overly scripted services. Title, personal anecdote, verses, three main points, conclusion, blanket "Let's continue to..." statement... repeat. I felt as if I wasn't learning anything. To challenge myself and scratch my own spiritual and intellectual itch, I started my own studies and digging. ANy time I would bring these up, I was chastised for going solo and delving into what was already researched. I should re-search what is already available. By this time, I could hear an introduction and immediately know which verses would come up. One STS, I wrote on my wife's notes five verses. Sure as dang, each one was ticked in the course of that scripted speech teaching. I stopped taking notes. I stopped putting time into my teachings at fellowships. I started coasting. I could see others going through the same motions. I used to talk about all of the interesting connections and parallels the moment a great teaching was done. Now I saw how quickly others began talking about their week, their boring lives, their.... anything but the bible. Truth was, it was the collaterals being taught again and again and again. LCM was disavowed, never to be mentioned. All that was safe was the collaterals. So that's were everything went, and still are.

Last flash is to the moment I realized how crumby the long-term TWI plan is for those out in the field. Find a menial job, work hard and don't rock the boat. Try to witness but we only need seats for the class- if it's just a connection, move it along. SELL SELL!!!! Find an apartment, move every few years, drive a 5 year+ model car (and keep that cardboard so you don't mess up the driveway). Long-term planning? You don't need that. God's got you. I woke up one day to realize my parents have no retirement and no equity of ANY kind. I didn't want that. I began looking at houses and tried every way to get one without getting a loan. Couldn't do it, so I tried to ask permission. Another post needs to explain this hot mess, but needless to say it was not on the menu. I forged ahead to the disapproval of many.

Kid number two arrives- I stop going to STS. Our last trip, I don't even open my bible. I hear and scrutinize the entire presentation better than I had every encapsulated with my notes. (Oh the notes, but I digress...). On our way home, my wife says "What an electrifying teaching!". I let the air clear for about 5 seconds and say "Was it?". Her face was as white as the audience at any given STS. We then discuss very openly our current role in the ministry and where we saw our spiritual lives. Needless to say, it was the beginning of the end.

We limped along for a few more years, mainly because of the sweet people that genuinely did care about others and the large family/friend connections. This is certainly a fact that cannot be overlooked, but we were killed with kindness and not won by spiritual truth. We eventually decide to skip fellowship for any convenient reason, attend other church services on Sunday mornings, and try on many religions/denominations. It came to a road that lead to us moving and telling our new coordinators we were out. I felt it necessary to go out on my terms, not middle-fingers a-blazing, but with a truthful talk.

We left about two years ago. There were some rough times, including much anger that has not fully gone away. I still struggle with what could have been or should have been, a fact that I can't completely let go of, but am getting closer. I burned my syllabi and collaterals, but still have their haunting memory (and .pdfs! that's a fun post as well!) in my mind. Religion is no longer something I value, and, current spiritual beliefs aside, I was able to emerge with clear and cogent truths I hold to, truthfulness and integrity being paramount.

I have spiritually sherpa'd a few others out of TWI, and gotten immense satisfaction for helping them think and process, not just bad-mouthing their religion. It's rewarding to truly help people, not blanket their needs in retemories or promises of a brighter day that never comes. It's rewarding to see them break the chain of mediocrity and a quiet life of apartments and ABSing to pay for staff cars (another post). I loved helping them and reassuring them the devil will not take them should they decide to take off the name tag.

My bourbon is getting low, as is my battery. Time to refill both. I have lots to say, and not sure how much/when to do it. I have many damning things, but not sure how it could help me or others. I don;t want to go back to the post-exit anger and rage that consumed my evenings (too late for that today! Oh well...), but I think a healthy processing and sharing for those who discover this site (like I did) will help clearer thoughts and heads prevail. I know TWI is not the epicenter of the spiritual world. I know TWI is pyramid of those working the ladder upward. I know TWI is a shell built on a few books and lock-step loyalty. I know that 30 years is far too much CollateralDamage.

Hi CD!!  Wow, where did you learn to write like that??!!  In MHO, you are a true Wordsmith!!  I too am new to posting at the GSC, but so much of you said, in your post is sadly true.  Since coming to the GSC, I have learned about the great number of longtime staff members that TWI has let go!!!  OMG!!!  These people probably had some idea that that if they worked for TWI in their Salad Days. they would be taken care of, in their Golden Years.  Instead, far too many found out during the eleventh hour, that TWI cruelly threw them away out, like a used diaper.  Every time I read this, I get seriously p----- off!!! Many of these people have no retirement plans, no pensions, no savings, no

SS; nothing!!!  TWI made promises to these people to take care of them when they entered their Senior Years, and now, TWI is defaulting on their promises when these staffers need them the most!!!  How ungodly. and inhumane can one organization be!   Yes, I am sure the people on the top rungs of TWI, have made plans concerning THEIR retirement.  What concerns me is how the rank-and- file will live when they leave TWI's payroll.  I am almost old enough to retire, and I have options.  Many of TWI's former staff, lack options.  TWI is sitting on piles of ABS; they are far from being bankrupt, yet the leaders will not share the wealth with most of the former staff members.  How evil, and uncaring TWI is!! 

On October 29, 2016 at 6:23 PM, T-Bone said:

Hi Grace !!!!

first off, thank you for your service to our country !!!!!!

and secondly, welcome.

thirdly, thanks for your posts-a-plenty - i love the input and it sure helps the bigger picture

fourthly...you have three first names (as if you didn't know)...though it took me awhile to realize that....observation is not my long suit, by the way.

Thanks!!  Yes, My names often confuse people.  I really, enjoy my time, at GSC!!  Years ago, I felt that TWI was not what it seemed; but I really felt  I had no one to voice my concerns with.  Maybe, I

didn't see the big picture, maybe I

was wrong, but I just felt that something was wrong with TWI, but in the Twigs I attended, everyone acted as if everything was wonderful in TWI land.  I really do think if most people in TWI, had known about the evil that existed in some of the Twigs, they would have left much sooner, than they did.  I know I would have; and taken my ABS with me.  I can not believe how long I stayed, not knowing the depth of evil that existed in it'd ranks!!  Most of the peons like me, just wanted to hear 

The Word, and fellowship in God's 

love, and mercy.  I think somehow some of it's leaders forgot about God, and succumbed to to various vices; drinking, lust, worldly riches.  Me, I kept my head on straight, and did not get caught up in any immorality.  After ten years, I left.  I know that I have nothing to be ashamed of concerning my time in TWI, but after coming to the GSC, I know this can not be said of some of it's leaders.  I left in 1988, and I know TWI had started to go to h--l before I left.  But I think one of the joys about the GSC, is that people 

understand my experiences with TWI, and help me process them.  I feel for the first time, free to question some of what I went thru.

i find it very liberating!!

Really, I had no idea of how some kids growing up in TWI had it!  Some of the posters at GSC have 

written what it was like growing up in TWI.  I had a very, very harsh childhood myself, but I have learned here at the Spot stunned me!!  Some kids around every few years, some kids stated that everyone was allowed to use a wooden spoon on them.  Some kids left, but their parents stayed.  I'm sure that caused quite a few heartbreaks for both parties.  I could go on and on, but I know that I had no idea of what some of The Way kids went through.  TGS has been a real eye opener for me; a lot of it has been ugly.  I think for decades, I and other people on the field were lied to over, and over again.  I know if I had known about all the sheet that went down behind the scenes, I would have left, much sooner. That might be the reason why a lot of things concerning TWI were glossed over; if people had known 

what went on, they would have left sooner, and taken their money with them.  God, even with Godly people, at times it really is about the money.

On April 12, 2012 at 5:49 PM, OldSkool said:

Sly, but not as smart as she thinks, and so out of touch she probably prefers candle light to light bulbs.

Hi!!  Does anyone have any idea where RR is going to live after her 

retirement??  I'm sure most people here at the Spot, don't care.  But, I think RR might not want to go back to her hometown

in NC.  I think she has really good political skills; how else could she have risen to the top in TWI.  I think of all the good that someone in her position could do, and it sickens me that she has done so many unholy things; again I should state that I do not know the woman.  All I know of her is what I 

have read about her here at the Spot.  But, if what I have read about her is true, than I feel for the people who worked for her.  So few people seem to like her; I wonder if her co-workers will be glad to get rid of her.

On January 21, 2011 at 7:58 PM, waysider said:

----but, instead, I think I'll start an MLM.

Well, the last time I checked, I was a woman who joined the Navy!!  I love this poster!!  Anyhow, to add my few pennies, I think VBW was  a sick man!!  A few years ago, a woman posted here at the Cafe, and she described in detail how she had been sexually abused, by a top leader in TWI.  OMG!!!  IIRC, I think the man who abused her was VPW!!!  I know she made me cry when she described in detail how this man( VPW?) had raped her!!  I know some people here at the Spot may live in a different than mine, but the way she described her experience was heartbreaking.  If she was making this up, shame on her; but I think it really happened to the poor woman!!!  I had, a hard, hard time reading about her experience.  It was so sad;  she broke my heart!

How could any man do that to a woman??!!  If a man did that to a young girl/ woman today, his azz would be in prison!!  And this was just one woman describing her experience with a powerful TWI leader.  It made me realize that several many, many people were abused by people in TWI; so many people who just wanted to love God, and help people were victimized by the leaders.  I know that someday God will deal with all the evil people in, and out of TWI, but I was furious that so many people were so hurt!  

On October 28, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Rocky said:

Welcome Grace!

Thanks!!  I love posting, and reading the posts here at the Greasespot!!  I must admit I did have some wonderful times in TWI.  But some of the things , never made sense.  For example, I thought the AC was a waste of time and money!!  And I knew .when I was Twig in RI, we were encouraged  to go three times, or more a week.  No way did I do that!  Also, everyone was encouraged to go Corps.  No way!!   People told me to go Corps, instead of enlisting in the Navy.  As it turned out, It was of God for me to join the military.  It was a lot is little things that years later made me realize that people in TWI sometimes had no idea what they were talking about!!  But when I come here, I start to understand my TWI experience, and can put in perspective.

On March 21, 2016 at 9:30 AM, skyrider said:

The monotony of twi was killing me....

Sitting in class after class, meeting after meeting.....no wonder Chair Stringing 101 is a prerequisite in corps training.

How long does this sufferance need to be tolerated? Who's running this butt-brigade anyways?

Two Categories: [A] HQ and Field:

Category A: HQ

Years ago, when I worked on staff.....it struck me that three groups emerged in this monotony

of whether one is obligated or not to have his butt firmly planted in a seat EVERY MEETING:

1) Top-tier.....mog-dom seniority, emeritus, inner-circle, connected, favored, loyal

2) Performers...green room, teacher, emcees, singers, musicians, bodyguards, receptionists, burger-flippers

3) Audience.....regular staffers at monthly staff mtgs, visitors (and staff) at sunday teachings

Heck, why did those burger-flippers have such a PASSION FOR THEIR JOB each sunday?

Because....it gave them a declared purpose and DUTY to not have their butt in a seat.

Add: a/v, security, bookstore personnel, refreshments, receptionists, green room assistants, etc.

Some of the "connected" staff could sit in their trailers and watch on closed-circuit monitors....

these were certain staffers that were given protected-status by top-tier from any confrontation.

Category B: Field

In the earlier years [1970-78]...twigs on the field were fairly loose. You could go, or not go,

every week and still be welcomed in. Or, you could hop from one twig to the next....on occasion.

If you were not faithful in weekly tithe/abs, it didn't cause major confrontation. Depending on

each state, area, and leadership......things started tightening up with each passing year.

It got to the point were.....1) Attending twig 3X a week was standard procedure, 2) If you missed twig

then you'd better have a good reason or expect confrontation, 3) Monitoring each person, attendance

for an upcoming Advanced Class Special was highly expected, of every adv class grad, 4) Having your

butt in the seat was as expected as what hq did.

Yep.....a total drag.

Skyrider, you are so right!!  I attended my first Twig in 1978 in Va Beach, Va.  People were always happy to see you, and you could go to any Twig you wanted. It was great.  You could go to Twig as often, or as little as you liked. Back then, your personal business was your's !!  I noticed  the longer I stayed in TWI, the more legalistic it became.  It seemed to me that everyone wanted to tell you how to run your life.  It seemed as if the love of God was missing.  Also, I agree with you about all the meetings.  

Boring, boring, boring!!!

What an evil, evil man VPW was!!

OMG!!!!  How on earth do people who work for TWI sleep at night??!!  I am so glad I got out years, and years ago!!  Have these people no shame, or guilt??!!

Wow!! And to think that at one time, I thought growing up in NK had it made!!  Wow!  I was so wrong!!

Wow!!  Great posts people!!  Oh, Penworks: Congs on your new book!  When can we read it?  I love your postings about your time in The Way!!

On 10/8/2016 at 11:36 AM, skyrider said:

 

I was the clergyman that officiated Jean-Yves's and Michelle's wedding.

Kinda amazing that he never stepped back to connect the dots -- especially during the lcm-purges and promulgations of twi-doctrine throughout the '80s.  The lies, the cover-ups, the damage control methods, and the character assassinations of any who dissented from mogville.  I guess a man sees what he WANTS to see.....and disregards the rest.

Someday......maybe I'll get around to posting more on GSC. 

Hello!!  My name is Grace Claire, and I am new

On 10/8/2016 at 11:36 AM, skyrider said:

 

I was the clergyman that officiated Jean-Yves's and Michelle's wedding.

Kinda amazing that he never stepped back to connect the dots -- especially during the lcm-purges and promulgations of twi-doctrine throughout the '80s.  The lies, the cover-ups, the damage control methods, and the character assassinations of any who dissented from mogville.  I guess a man sees what he WANTS to see.....and disregards the rest.

Someday......maybe I'll get around to posting more on GSC. 

to posting on the GSC.  I have never meet RR nor heard any of her teachings.  I notice that not one person has posted any nice about her.  I think that this speaks volumes about her style of leadership. Even LCM and VPW, had supporters.  However, I have yet to read anything that speaks of her kindness, thoughtfulness, or great leadership skills.  I am not judging her, but after all the years that she has been the head of TwI, 

I think that when no one has anything good to say about her, that she probably did not do a very good job as the head wannabe of the organization.  Just a thought!!

Thanks!!  Please forgive me for laughing my butt off, but that way that was written, made me laugh!  However, it was also true!!  If I was the new leader of TWI, I would leave at once!  However, because it has taken him years to get "the big chair" he probably will stay and be as corrupt as the other leaders have been.  How money/ power hungry can one man/ woman be?  I am so thankful for the GSC, to learn that I was not the corrupt person I thought I was; it was TWI that was sick!!

So if RR is leaving, is she taking Donna with her??  Does anyone know anything about her replacement, other than he is a male Canidian citizen?  I left TWI in 1988, and no nothing about her replacement.  

On August 19, 2006 at 11:53 AM, George Aar said:

Georgio,

Thanks for giving us the "kid's eye view" of WayWorld.

Gawd, I'm sorry for the crap that we put you through, I really am.

I don't think I know you but I had my own kids that we dragged all over the country in

pursuit of the Yellow Brick Road, or whatever it was we were after.

I do know Moneyhands, though - at least in passing. One would hope that Karma

catches up with that dip$%&t REAL soon.

Lordy, the needless hurt and deprivation that was handed out to you kids for absolutely nothing...

Hello everyone, I am a "Newbie" here at the GSC.  I was in TWI from 1978-1988.  George, I think you are right; a lot of the Way kids were jerked around a lot.  As for me, 1984 was an important year for me; I decided that I was going to take AC 1985, and after I finished I was going to join the Navy.  I took the AC in Rome City, IN in the summer of 1985.  OMG!! I expected to learn a lot of "hot Bible."  Instead, I damn near froze to death in RC.  For some reason, the AC was on full-blast all the time.  I guess we either had to sweat or freeze for the two weeks we were there; I can!t remember the reason.  It was so cold; I wore my coat, and a blanket to keep warm. Well, I kept warm; I slept thru most of the class.  When I was awake, I heard a lot of s--t. What a huge disappointment for me; I spent a lot of time and money on hearing a lot of right-wing nonsense.  I couldn't wait to get back to Albany, and get warm. I realized when I finished the AC, that it was time for me to join the Navy.  For those of you who have never been in the military, it was a huge shock for me to go from college, to boot camp.  I hated it, and could not wait to leave!!  I spent the next five years in the Navy, and got out in 1990.  As much as I hated the Navy, I know that it was of God for me to join.  Every month, I get disability money.  When I get sick, I go to the VA Hospital,  I know a lot of people wanted be to go Corps but I knew that was not what God wanted for me; He wanted me to join the Navy.  I know a lot of the people who worked for TWI for decades, were kicked out when it was time for them to retire.  What an ungodly thing to do to godly people.  I had some good times in TWI, in the 80's, but I think my Naval Experience was a lot better for me than going Corps would have been.