ImLikeSoConfused

Well I read the first 10 pages or so. Lots of arguing but not much substance or answering to the question how someone can unintentionally fake speaking in tongues. But from reading your posts in that thread you admit to faking it but say something to the tune of I was genuine in my fake tongues. Raf on the other hand seems to take it a step further and seems to believe speaking in tongues is impossible because of his subjective experience. His claim is that because he faked tongues everyone else who spoke in tongues or still speaks in tongues is faking and in a delusion about it. Also he points to acts and says because when we speak in tongues we aren't speaking in a historical language or known language with the structure of language as we know it today. While I can't explain why that is the case if it is the case, I will say that he needs to just speak for himself and say something like I faked speaking in tongues anyone else? Instead of jumping to the conclusion since he was faking everyone else was and its all hogwash. Are the tongues I speak in any way a known language? probably not, do they help witness to others? no. But I really don't think that because people in acts spoke in tongues and others understood it that when paul says he speaks in tongues in the epistles(I can't remember if it was him or weirwille who said tongues is for private prayer life) that others had to understood it. Mainly because he claimed to have spoke in tongues an incredible amount yet theres no evidence of paul ever saying he spoke in tongues to witness to others or convert them etc. It seems he spoke in tongues personally to God. Which would refute the claim that unless the tongues you speak in are understandable by some other person that they aren't real tongues. Does that mean there are 2 types of tongues I don't know but no one taught me how to speak in tongues. I was never instructed by anyone to do it. I just remember praying to God and did it but others around me thought I was just crazy so I stopped then a year or so later in private I did it and doubted it as first. But over time with experience the doubts went away and I no longer doubt that I am speaking in tongues. Tongues wasn't forced on me I was under no pressure to do it like those in the way. No one taught it to me. I personally believe God taught me to do it. Because all of those around me believed speaking in tongues was something you got as a gift but not something you can learn. I believe I could teach others to do it as I taught my sister recently. The problem is overcoming the doubt that comes when you first start speaking in tongues that it is anything but gibberish. It certainly doesn't sound like any language I have heard of but that doesn't mean its fake or I'm faking it. I personally have 0 incentive to come here and fake like I can speak in tongues and am under no obligation or pressure to do it and gain nothing by sharing it. But this goes back to my post in the"can i share weirwille books" thread where I said you shouldn't just discard everything you learned from the way if that thing you are discarding is true. If people in the way weren't having authentic SIT experiences then I can see why you would believe its not possible. But thats just one persons experience. What reason do we have to believe paul spoke in tongues to witness to others or thats the purpose of speaking in tongues? I don't see how speaking in syllables you or other people don't understand would be a good witnessing tool. I do however see the benefits if it is perfect prayer that you don't understand, or if it is a private thing between you and God and it is something that recharges your spirit. I use SIT a lot when I feel worn out or down in spirits and it does recharge me and lift me up. One could say thats just a placebo effect or baloney but its one hell of a placebo is all I can say. I sometimes feel chills when doing it and refreshed. Perhaps thats not what others here experienced and if not then I can see why you would doubt it. I don't make any special claims here of being this special gifted person but will say that I do wish others could experience what I experience with God and tongues on a daily basis as I do. Perhaps then these people would see the light and not doubt like they do.

That link has over 2100 posts. Can't you just tell me the important parts of that thread in your own words?

Can you give me an example of how someone can fake SIT while not doing it intentionally. Unless I'm missing something how do you do something and not know what you are doing is fake? So people in the way were faking SIT thinking it was real, doesn't make any sense.

Interesting read.

I find this quite amazing that you spent so much time faking speaking in tongues. I think if you actually spoke in tongues you probably would still be a christian today. Of course there are plenty of people who speak in tongues who are no longer christians and probably dont do it anymore. But the mere fact that you were faking it is hilarious and sad at the same time. I also am not going to say your faith was weak because you couldn't speak in tongues but I will say faith clearly just isn't a gift you have. I definitely believe speaking in tongues is real but I also believe that if you can't speak in tongues then you can't understand it. The mere fact that you were faking it obviously brings into question your character and any faith you may have thought you had couldve been fake as well. I just don't think any sincere person seeking God would fake tongues and then go out and assume everyone is because he is. Thats definitely a fallacy to assume because you can't do something that no one else is or can. But besides that point at least you were being honest that speaking in tongues and faith in god just never clicked or stopped clicking. I don't think you are the only person who claimed to be a christian to please people or because they thought they had no choice or it was what they were suppose to do. I still personally wouldn't waste my time faking tongues or believing in something I thought was not true but to each its own.

I've scanned through this forum but couldn't find a link to your story on why you decided to give up your christian faith. It would be an interesting read given all that you have contributed here regarding the christian faith as from a perspective of one who believes in god. A bit surprised to hear you eventually lost your faith. Theres clearly no need for shame if you don't really believe the bible or in God, I'd just like to hear what happened to make this drastic change and why.

That link definitely clears up some potential dangerous thinking that that book could give a person. And does a good job of saying what is good about it and the things that are clearly incorrect. Definitely will bookmark that link for future reference. Definitely an example of keeping the good and getting rid of the bad that I was trying to convey with earlier posts. I also find it interesting the person who made that critique of the blue book became an atheist. Because he clearly knows the word pretty good, if anyone has a link to him going in depth about his reasoning for becoming an atheist I would like to see it. But I definitely think he cleared up the good and bad with the book pretty well. Even if he eventually lost his faith somehow.

I agree with what you are saying and can understand why those who were in it would reject anything related to him. Its the only natural response. But at the same time I wouldn't want to not believe something that is true because the author stole it from some source or is a corrupt individual. Even the devil tells some truth. Obviously its a slippery slope because it does make sense not to trust anything someone says if they are corrupt, but it just goes back to what I was saying with the parable of the tares, if you remove the bad theres some good you are losing out on as well. For most people the rage he caused is so significant that rejecting everything he said is the simplest choice. But in doing so theres some true things that you are by default rejecting.

Raf although I did not read this whole thread I can't help but think atheism itself is a cult of its own. I don't mean that in an offensive way what I mean is that like those in the way who had all these go to lines, phrases, standard responses like your valhalla comment when talking about what you would say to jesus at the bema it doesn't seem to me that atheists think for themselves. It is clearly true many christians spout out lines as ridiculous as what you said about what you would say to jesus, but my goodness come up with your own material and belief about the nature of reality and God. Spewing out what the christopher hitchens,sam harris, richard dawkins, etc say doesn't really make what you say very convincing. We hear the type of things you say in this thread all the time from atheists, my question is why do we? And is it not just the result of following the same pattern those who were in the way did? Spewing out lines that aren't your own but things you were fed and something you ended up believing to be true. I just find that comment about what you would say to Jesus not only unoriginal but it seems unauthentic as if there are a cult of atheists being taught these things and just instantly going to them without really thinking about the reasonableness of what they are actually saying. The more and more I listen to atheists speak about why they don't believe the more and more convinced I am God exists. The alternative to believing in God isn't very convincing. I am not going to knock what you believe, but the logic behind it is mind boggling to me. I've been guilty of just lazily quoting other christian leaders or sayings but the fact is you will not win an argument that way and it is better to come up with a more original response from the heart than some rote response of I would say the same thing to thor? I just find that response if you really would give that response comical. Although I don't believe in hell if it did exist I think such a response is so funny God would be like yo this dude is too funny to give the second death lets keep him around a little longer. It just can't be real for one to believe when they are asked what they would say to jesus thats the first thing that comes to mind? I get it, thinking for ourselves and coming up with our own reasoning is difficult. But I think we are better off saying nothing than to say something like that in response to a reasonable question. This is why I can't really take atheists serious because they reply things like that. Instead of responding what you did why not give an answer that can't be found in popular atheist books and instead give an answer from your heart. You do still have a heart right? I think I have gone on long enough about your response but I hope you would think deeper next time if you really were in that situation. Instead of repeating common atheist jargon that does not help people really understand what you think and why you think it. Instead of replying what you did why not say I would tell jesus if he existed I made a mistake etc or something like that. Thats not only more real but is something we can work with and have a discussion about. But just constantly repeating atheist jargon does nothing to further the discussion. Theres no discussion to be had when someone is just repeating what they read from the God delusion or whatever book is popular now.

Bible tells me so I must admit was a good read. Whether or not some of it is a fib of course must be considered. And yes its true that he as a person hurt hundreds or even thousands of people. Not going to deny that. I also know some people or well a person who was taught by a person taught by weirwille who had their life changed for the better. They were down and out and hopeless and the instruction this person received from one of weirwilles students helped change this mans life for the better. Of course this may be an exception to what most have experienced. But lets think for a minute about how we felt and how our lives were when we believed weirwille was a decent or good person. Finding out he is a manipulating liar may make us not trust him but I don't think it should remove any good that came from his efforts and work. Even if some or all of those works werent his originally. Lets do a thought experiment for a second here and imagine weirwille was who he presented himself to be. And think about any possible positives he gave us then now lets think about how we feel after finding out hes a horrible person. Why should weirwilles behavior and poor character remove the good we received from him. I definitely understand that a lot of people were hurt from him but we can't let our emotions override our logic. And is it logical to just throw away all the good we received because we find out the source wasn't the original source or the source was a terrible person? It seems a terrible person helped a lot of people myself included get to know God better. I would be lying if I said I think I would be as close to God if I hadn't read "his" book bible tells me so and all the others. Sure the law of believing isn't what he claimed it to be but it did increase my faith and helped me grow more spiritually to God. Theres certainly some fibs in his work I highly doubt he really healed a person with a lame arm or that it snowed at an impossible time. I don't think those things happened, I did before I found out what kind of person he was. But such things not being true aren't really important. Whats important is what did I gain from my experience reading his books? What did I lose? Sure I had some negatives that I discussed early in this thread, but I personally am better off now than I wouldve been had I not read his books, I would be dishonest if I said otherwise. Now for those who have personal experience with the wretched man I can see how it is easy to just want to remove everything you ever knew or learned from him because what you learned was from a tainted source and its hard to separate the good he taught from the bad experiences he gave you. Not to disregard the terrible pain he caused many people but it is still important to forgive the evil done and keep the good that came out of the experience from him. It is much easier to go through life with an all or nothing approach, by saying okay such and such is just a rotten terrible evil person, hence it follows everything they did or do is rotten terrible and evil, and to be repulsed by anything associated with such a person. I completely understand where people are coming from with these feelings. I can't imagine the pain he caused. Heck I suffered some from going all in on his law of believing, but some good did result. I learned to speak in tongues, I experience God in my life daily now which is something I never did before. In one of his books he talks about fellowship with God being the key, now while I'm not sure if there is a key to life, but I found that statement stuck. I personally don't think there are any keys to life because there is nothing that can stop us from failing or experiencing pain or negativity. So in that sense there is no key. But having a personal relationship with God is vital in my opinion. Having great faith in the bible is vital and changes you for the better. Faith is a very big and important virtue. It is something I lacked before reading his material. A relationship with God and experiencing God on a daily basis and receiving guidance from God on a daily basis and just having a personal relationship with God was something I didn't have before reading his books. I can't really stress enough that there was good that came from a very evil and rotten person. No one wants to admit good can come from someone so evil. But some good did come from him for me. Maybe thats not the case for most here. And I completely understand if people want nothing to do with his teachings or the bible or God or anything to do with anything that brings up even the slightest memory of him. I'm sure I would feel betrayed and hurt like most here feel when it comes to him. If I had known the man or been apart of the way I would probably disassociate myself with any connection to anything involving him and would definitely question my faith and question God for allowing me to experience such evil. I couldn't imagine what it is like to be a part of an actual cult. It would have to mess with your mind for years before you recovered I'm sure. Healing from that can't be easy. So I'm definitely not excusing any of his behavior but what I would like to say is as hard as it may be, if we could just cut out the evil that came from him and only focus on the positive received perhaps we would all be better off. Such a thing is difficult to do though because of the hate or anger or other negative emotions such a person triggers. And I don't think I'm in any position to tell anyone here to forgive him. I however hope that we can all move on from the bad and maintain any of the good that resulted. It's like that parable of the tares. If you uproot everything you are taking the bad away sure but you are also removing any good in there as well.

Just bookmarked that book thanks for the recommendation.

I don't think there is a teacher out there who doesn't have something wrong with his theology. It may be impossible to be 100% correct on everything you teach in the bible because quite frankly no one knows everything about the bible. I just find traditional theology not very compelling. This of course does not make it wrong but I don't think I can just read a book on systematic theology and come away thinking everything I read is actually true. So the toughest question is who can we trust to teach us the word? Obviously it would be best if we all had the time to learn greek and hebrew and read the earliest texts but many have already done that for us. And there seems to be differing opinions even among those who have done that. The bible is a very complex and difficult subject to grasp because no matter what route you take in approaching learning it, every route will lead to a different path and all clearly can't be correct. So what does one do here? The best any of us can do is go with what we believe makes sense and believe is true. If something doesn't make sense then we need to dig deeper till be find a satisfactory answer. But I agree with many on here that the biggest mistake one could make when approaching the bible or learning from someone about the bible is that someone has the absolute truth. I think only God has the absolute truth. We can only get pieces of it here or there with no absolute certainty. Any thought of having the absolute truth is a mere illusion as we saw with the way. When I was reading weirwilles books him and the person who introduced me to the material(who btw still believes he has the absolute truth, which is a good feeling I admit but just a fantasy at best) seem to teach or think they have the absolute truth. Which is a dicey situation to be in if you are wrong which they both were. So while I like js as you guys call him here and his work, I no longer approach it with the view that this is just absolutely the truth. I approach it like I do anything else that could contain error, with caution and without thinking I know more than I know or that is knowable. The way seems to have taught they had the truth and everyone else was wrong and that isn't the right mindset to have. No one has the truth but God is my belief. Even if you read the bible and know all the knowledge the world has on the bible you would perhaps have the absolute truth but also have so many contradictions that knowing the absolute truth from whats false would be impossible to differentiate.

To be accused multiple times on here of being a troll or making 2 accounts to troll is very ridiculous and unwelcoming for new members. Why do former the way members feel so special that I would personally waste my time to troll. Seems like everyone on here is paranoid from their experience with the way and take it out on new members. No I am not a troll and no I don't have multiple accounts on here to troll former damaged the way members. So drop the paranoia. I only created this thread to learn more about what I learned from vp wierwilles books and how am i even suppose to trust what some of you guys say here if you come off as paranoid and distrusting to any new member who comes here with genuine intentions and questions. There is some clear bitterness from members here in regards to the way and I would think after some 20 odd years you would let that go. Instead some here hold hate in their heart for vp wierwille and for others from the way like john schoenheit who btw as rocky state has a good heart and good intentions. What more could one ask from someone than to have a good heart with good intentions unlike wierwille. Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there, who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille? makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple. Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.

I don't know if there is any solution to the rise of millenials not going to church but I think its just part of the falling away talked about in the bible. People my age don't want God but things. I'll be a jesus freak to the day I die regardless of what others around me my age or not are doing. When thinking of the way I think is it okay for good to result from evil? And clearly an answer is not so easy to come by because evil harms people. I have been hurt by weirwille indirectly from his books but also i gained in some ways. The hurt came from what he said wasn't true but the gain came from the things in his message that was true. Although I know a lot of the stuff he said about the law of believing isn't true. You can't control others with your mind but I believe to a much lower extent that faith and believing are core christian principles and very important in our day to day life. We can't do just like Jesus and heal the lame or blind no matter how much we truly believe but if we believe in the correct things and have faith things will work out whether in this life or the next we can stand to benefit more than someone who is fearful. Not to say like in his example that fear can lead to the death of someones son but i believe fear is bad because it does bind you and make you trapped by it. So like I said I don't know what part of his books he wrote or didn't but I no longer care. All I can do is focus on what I learned from my experience applying his principles and what didn't work I throw out. What did work I keep. I don't want to just throw everything out because there was some benefit and truth to what some of he said. But you could say the same thing about what satan told adam and eve. Half truths are definitely from the enemy. So while I won't recommend anyone read his material I'd like to write a free book combining everything I learned not just from his material but from my experiences with it, with what works and what doesn't and to what extent these things work to have something to read that is all good and all biblical. None of the half truths but give people the whole truth not just wishful thinking.

Well I'll have to pray for john if hes still suffering from twi syndrome. You can tell he really believes what he says so its a shame if he really believes something incorrect. He seems like a really good guy but like rocky said its not just about niceness or goodness but correctness. I'd just like to ask you two above me if after getting out of the way and that mindset if your faith withered? If it did to what point does it remain? I know what you guys are saying about just smell the roses of life and not worry about the bible so much, I get that. I try to maintain a balance. But if God isn't the most important part of our life then whats the point right? Perhaps I never will find the absolute truth besides what I understand from the bible, and no teacher is the answer. Perhaps the pursuit isn't worth it anymore I don't know, I'm personally tired of looking for the answers. I thought I had found it with weirwilles stuff, then stfs stuff, but it was just an illusion. So I will have to go on in life without that security blanket of thinking I know the truth and just accept I know very little about the absolute truth. I guess I can do that. God bless.

By legit I meant just what you spoke about, as far as believing his teachings. I am at least happy to hear that you believe he is sincere but considering all the material i bought from stf I was hoping you would recommend his teachings. Anything particular about his teachings that you don't like or that I should be aware about? I read this http://www.christianeducational.org/25diffTWI.htm Which talks about how stf differs from the way so he at least doesn't teach the law of believing;) Do you think john is still living the delusional "the way" mindset? and is in too deep to ever get out or is this not that serious as I think? I wish all well and I really don't know where to turn anymore for good biblical teaching. I didn't really see anything wrong with his teaching so if you could set the record straight for me in case I missed something or don't know something about stf that would be great. It seems that most here believe that it is best to steer clear of anything and anyone associated with the way. Which I'm learning more and more about. I just hope people don't like john's teachings because he was taught by wierwille instead of the fact that his teachings are unbiblical or incorrect.

Or is his nice personality on his videos just a show? I read somewhere on here that someone said they questioned his scholarly ability and his facial expression changed and he was really offended. So for those that know him or know some things about him is he the real deal as he portrays? I enjoy his videos but if hes a fraud too then maybe I shouldn't watch his videos. Heres his recent video which seems okay but he might not be really this nice in real life and putting on a show like wierwille. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdAJ-tMBLz4

Yeah i'm 27 not sure if thats young anymore lol. I will definitely give that a read. Also what do you think about the book "The cult that snapped".https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/35199 I was thinking about getting that as well.

Yeah I'm sure he really believes what he told me and i honestly don't know how weirwille was such a good con artist. I see other cults and think wow how could someone be so stupid to fall for that, then it seems I fell for one myself. It is mainly because we all want something in this life and the cults offer it to us and make it seem easy.

Yeah thank God i'm fully recovered. The law of believing that he teaches is just probably the most harmful teaching in my experience that he preached.

I just started today so if I sound ignorant on something its because I actually don't know. And I was talking in particular about schoenheit and my friend who was taught by a guy who was personally taught by weirwille. And these people say things like weirwille wasnt perfect but who is and they just excuse his behavior. Thats just what I currently know. I know not all think highly of weirwille as seen in this forum but i don't know who here actually knew the guy. So i'm still learning and trying to sort this situation out. I listened to johns tape new lift in christ and he talks about how a "great man" taught him and obv thats weirwille but everyone here is saying weirwille was not a great man so why does john think so?

I downloaded a torrent which contained the following books. Christians should be prosperous,Gods magnified word, Jesus Christ is not God, Jesus Christ our passover, Jesus Christ our promised seed,order my steps in thy word, pfal, receiving the holy spirit today, the bible tells me so, the new dynamic church, the words way, and are the dead alive now. All of which I have read. If I sound like a troll it is because I don't know much about twi and actually thought they were good when it turns out they were worse than i couldve imagined. I am just a noob when it comes to knowing the way because my friend sort of scammed me into thinking the way and weirwille and his material were all legit. I believe he truly believes it and meant good but it screwed me because i went full out in the law of believing stuff.

Thats a tougher question than the obvious no that seems to come to mind. Part of me feels like it was worth the pain I suffered because I do feel closer to God and I do speak in tongues but on the other hand surely there has to be a better way to come closer to God and to speak in tongues than the pain that comes along with false teaching. I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone suffering because they read the wrong thing so its clear the answer is no I can't recommend his stuff. Considering it led to me having a mental breakdown and such:/

Alright I'm going to spend some time digging deep into this forum especially in the doctrinal forum. I appreciate all the responses from everyone. It seems I sort of overreacted but I'm just going to try and forget everything I learned from weirwille and stf until I look at all the evidence on this forum.

So is there anyone credible in your opinion? What is your view on say the trinity for instance? Most of what I believe doctrine wise is from wierwilles and stfs books so i'm finding all of this stuff kind of shocking to say the least. All I want is the truth and I thought I found the truth with weirwille and stfs material but since they aren't credible i really don't know what I believe anymore.