Waxit

4 minutes ago, Twinky said:

My comment to which you replied, Waxit, was very tongue-in-cheek.

You haven't bothered to reply to my comment on what YOU raised - about Noah.

Ok! I get it - you still think that sabbath is legalistic and that I am going to be 
wearing the jewish kippa on my head. LOL

Sorry about not recognising your tongue in cheek-n sarcasm - 

Dont think I an avoiding to answer or I havent bothered to answer you - It's just that I thought you had caught on- apparently not
and I was going to answer your noahide laws discovery

Are you referring to my reply that Sabbath was kept right from the start in the garden of eden
and was continued through Noah.
To which you came up with the Noahide laws that doesnt say anything about the sabbath?
and I didnt have any reply to this.
Am i on the right track?
Just want to make sure I get this correct before I answer you


 

4 hours ago, Twinky said:

A "day" Biblically is evening to evening.  It's Friday night to Saturday night.  So Mark, you'd be okay if you worked on Saturday evening, but not if you worked on Friday  evening.  

Not sure how time zones apply.  Would that be Friday eve to Sat eve in Jerusalem time?  In which case, it's GMT + 3 (ie it's now 10.30am Sunday, Jerusalem time, 7.30am GMT, or 8.30 British Summer Time; and 12.30 am (half past midnight) Sunday, Pacific Time.  Perhaps observing the Sabbath on Saturday on Jerusalem time would be going a bit too far, would be a bit "religious"? -- though for those on PT it would equate quite reasonably to a "midnight to midnight" set up.

Hi Twinky
You can observe sabbath according to the sunset time right where you live.
You do not have to observe Jerusalem time. 
God has set up the 7th day sabbath from evening  to evening where you are living
which is pretty good. What if a sabbath keeper is in the antartic- it wouldnt be very practical
for him or her to follow Jerusalem time would it? The way God has organized it works for everybody where they are
The 7th day sabbath is a special day in Heaven- God established it in Genesis.
So as the earth rotates around the sun- people all around the world will be worshipping and resting when sunset
drops in at their location.
So when you are resting and worshipping, fellowshipping and communing with God where you are living
you are in sync with heaven and God who estabilished it in the heavens.
Thats not to say -the rest of the week we forget God- we must be connecing with God 24/7
but God knows the hectic pressure we face in our everyday life so
He established a special 7th day sabbath at sunset and has specially given us a weekly set time audience with Him
Jesus Christ our Lord is also Lord of the Sabbath ( greek word shabat-rest & worship)

whether you recognise anything special happening or not on this day- He is doing a transformational work in our hearts
to prepare us for the return of the Lord - which is going to be happening any time - it's getting closer as we speak
Usually I find that after the sabbath- I enter the week with renewed vigour and the counsel and love of God strenghens me to be more
diligent in being in sync with God's word to have that relationship with God 

You will notice that Hebrews 11 is a faith chapter. The heroes of the faith overcame tremendous challenges because they had 
the relationship with God in loving Him and being obedient to His commandments

Hebrews 11:6

⁶ But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
  and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (7th day Sabbath gives us the time and space to rest and diligently seek Him)

God has promised us that He will help overcome these very challenging times.
You can see that prophecies are coming to pass- pestilences, tribulations is on 
the horizon and we can only endure and overcome by God's frace and mercy
Jesus Christ our Lord said in
John 15

⁵ I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me (The Lord of the Sabbath) , and I 
  in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

There is good news for all those who love, trust and obey God 

Romans 8:35-39 King James Version (KJV)

³⁵ Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

³⁶ As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

³⁷ Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

³⁸ For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

³⁹ Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Regards
Waxit

 

14 hours ago, Twinky said:

The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated are the following:^[7][8]

1. Not to worship idols.
2. Not to curse God.
3. To establish courts of justice.
4. Not to commit murder.
5. Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality.
6. Not to steal.
7. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Let's talk about the Noahide laws since we are talking about the 7th day sabbath keeping
being passed down the generations. 
The Noahide laws are very general as you can see they are not specific
So what are you saying? 
Are you saying that just because the sabbath has not been mentioned specifically - that means it has not been kept
Is that what you are saying?

13 minutes ago, waysider said:

You don't  need any scientific evidence on this, just good old fashioned historical probing.

By the way, you may want to reexamine your post if you still don't understand why that was a personal attack.

I accidentally read your reply while looking at my own post- I wont make the same mistake again
Personally, i wouldnt waste my time on "historical probing" of Moses
Where will it stop? Will you also historical probe the existence of Jesus Christ and question everything
Moses cannot be a figment of man's imagination - Moses was not a mythical figure or a robot-
He delivered the 10 commandments to the children of Israel
This is my last message to you so dont bother replying as it will not get read

6 minutes ago, waysider said:

And you know that Moses, as an actual person, existed ...how? Have you looked at any secular historical sources that would support this premise?

 

When you resort to personal attacks, it diminishes the value of your response.

I am not seeking to be popular and 
It's not a personal attack- it's just that they would value your "inquisitive" tendencies
and your "scientific" analysis on the word of God
Dont waste your time replying to me as I wont even bother reading it
 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:57 PM, Rocky said:

RE-read all of the comments to this topic. Your demand has already been met.

All of them have got nothing to do with sabbath keeping- I have yet to get one bible verse
(rightly divided- no errors) that shows the insignificance of 7th day sabbath keeping
So No- It's not been met- I am sorry to disappoint you

On 4/21/2020 at 10:17 PM, waysider said:

I'm not interested in winding anyone up. I'm only saying that, in the context of what we know about history, the existence of Moses as a real person may require a bit closer scrutiny. That's not to say there may not be some even greater sort of metaphoric value in the story of Moses. I think it requires an inquisitive approach rather than quick, unbending refutation.

 

There are some things like the existence of Moses that does not require any "inquisitive" approach 
Nothing wrong in searching out the word like the beareans of Acts 17:11 to verify whether somwething tht is taught
is according to the word of God. But this is ridiculous, it's like coming up against God Himself and saying to Him, I dont trust the truth that you have made available
in the word of God. vpw on the other hand was a device that satan used. He had no right to be a teacher of the word right from the start, so dont let him or TWI doubt wthe 
integrity of God's word rightly divided.  The next thing I know you might even question whether Jesus Christ actually existed?

Why dont you apply for memberhsip to Christian Science- I am sure they would welcome you there?

18 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

 

On 4/21/2020 at 10:44 PM, waysider said:

My dad  said you should always consider your sources. That's why I made mention of Moses, as he would be considered the source, or, at the very least, a messenger for the source..

chapter and verse on why you think 7th day sabbath keeping is insignificant 
The bible is the most accurate source- if your rightly divide the word of God ( with no errors, contradictions and everything fits)
Please dont link me with vpw or pfal- He was 5% ok and 95% horse manure
 

15 hours ago, Twinky said:

Waxit has certainly made life interesting these past few days.  I can't think of another time when the entire Café was busy throwing buns at one person - not even Mike, with his rather unusual ideas.  When coming from our many varied perspectives, we all spoke with one voice and decried Waxit.

I wish him well, and if he has other input on other topics - get posting!

You have asked me for explanation on how i know the 7th day sabbath (saturday)  is the original day that God rested on
How I know this has been continued and not been obscured by calendar changes and I gave you a detailed explanation
and I havent heard boo from here?
Ok! tell me what's all you gsc folks that are throwing buns against me- it will be great if they are fresh and vegan preferred (LOL)
What is the one voice that you are decrying against me in regards to the importance of 7th day sabbath?- Let me know

Regards
Waxit

On 4/21/2020 at 9:33 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

Waxit

I seldom post, but do read most of them, and wonder why zealots, such as yourself, continue to argue your point to such a small group of opponents? You have been going round and round for a goodly amount of time, even attempting to bypass this thread, and begin a new one on the same subject. Why you attempted the new thread is up for speculation, unless you decide to declare the mystery. I notice it has been deleted. either by you or the moderators, for being in the incorrect forum. 

As animate and forceful as you are, I can assume you want as many people as possible to become aware of your strong beliefs. You are very livid in your understanding that the word be rightly divided, so why try to convert the posters at GSC, who repeated divide the  word differently? Using your most persuasive arguments, zero have switched their dividing of the word to your right dividing. Seems you may be beating a dead horse and your time and talents better directed in another avenue. I guess, it is possible you are expending your energies to sharpen and hone your debate skills, and this is a good place to undertake such a measure. There are ample participants willing to sharpen iron against iron.

IMO, and if it was me with such a strong Godly belief with so many rebuffs, it would be time to knock on the next door. As a former WOW Ambassador (twice), when I encountered unbelief at a home, my next move was to hop across the sidewalk to the next house. This was done many, many times in a day over two years. I did not go back to the same unbelieving residence over and over trying to change their minds, and hopefully bring them around to what I was selling. I don't know your background in TWI, but you may have done identical witnessing. 

As a WOW, I was holding forth the word with an overwhelming and strong belief I knew what God wanted for the world. This left all other occupants of the planet in the category of clueless. I gave them one chance to change their minds. Then at the end of the day, with all the other members of my WOW family, we licked our wounds, knowing we had done our best. To keep our moral up we put all those who had slammed their door on us, in the category of unbelievers, or not in God's Household. 

Matthew 7:6 was the scripture we ended the day with; "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." 

Would your pearls be better cast in more fertile ground with another website or other persons? Your pearls have definitely been trampled under foot by everyone at GSC who have responded to your posts. I don't know if you realize it, or not,  but you have been turned on and torn to pieces. 

I believe Matthew 7:6 has been rightly divided?

Stayed Too Long

 

 

Thanks

12 hours ago, socks said:

You simply have a position that you believe is the correct one and you aren't going to consider that the very scriptures you and many others read and interpret can be interpreted to mean different things. This is something that is easily missed when the emphasis is on specific word parsing. The true understanding of what the Bible teaches about any one thing must be understood through the context of it's history, up to and including the most recent and current records of the N.T. The balance of material will quite literally "Interpret itself"  in the text themselves. 

Mate, Jesus Christ said that "He is the (only)way, the (only)truth, and the l(only) ife" and He is the Lord of the Sabbath
You say we should focus on Jesus Christ- You are absolutely right there
You will obviously agree with me that Jesus Christ is righteous and correct in what He said and practised
So tell me how can someone be Lord of the Sabbath and then consider sabbath keeping insignificant

Forget about TWI - I dont really care what they believe- if there is something good that i learnt
from pfal- it's the keys and principles in rightly dividing the word of God.
In fact there is a lot more than what vpw said- there are 14 rules for enabling one to rightly divide the word of God where there are no errors or contradictions
I also pray to God that He will guide me to all areas of truth

There are no 10,000 ways for everyone to be right. If you belives, yes everybody can be correct with differing opinion and it depends on how you look at it
 then go and join the ecumenical movemnent which is very popular, you will be welcomed there

Let's forget about all the character analysis- what i think about you or what you think about e
Give me one bible verse that proves 7th day sabbath is insignificant 

 

8 hours ago, WordWolf said:

We're pretty confident that the entire Bible says it no longer plays a significant role in regards to "God's plan for salvation."  You've avoided discussion in lieu of making assertions. That's common among ex-twi that haven't spent enough time free of twi,  or ex-twi that spend a lot of time in a splinter group (depending on the group.)  You haven't actually made the case you THINK you did.  Volume and repetition don't equal "making a case." ]

You and your group of people that agree with you are entitled to your own opinions.
I have just been on gsc for a a few weeksor splinter group- (I dont give a hoot about TWI or any splinter goup)
 and you think you know everything about me just by reading a few posts- like i havent spend enough of time away from twi
How do you know that??? 
I started a newwthread which invited a people to give me a bible scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath keeping
being insignificant which contracdicts Exodus 20:8-11 and nobody including yourself has done that
and you stand on the sidelines barking away at my heels
If you are so insistent in me discussing sabbath with people who are not interested, why dont you
give me one bible verse that does show sabbath keeping to be insignificant. I think you are afraid to learn the truth
Listen i am not inerested in long theological debates and wasting time
The bible is very clear about the importance of sabbath keeping in the new covenant relationship with God
As i said i have got no hard feelings for those who disagree with me. You can stick to with what you want to believe
one thing for sure - we will learn the trugh when we come before the judgement seat of Christ and it will be too late then

I know that sometimes I repeat stuff but i do that because it's important. Havent you heard that repitition of vital truths is the mother of learning>
Dont need to comment on what i said- which is what you will continue to do to highlight to everyone that you are right and i am wrong
I am not interested in what you think of me because you dont have a clue of who i am and the heart I have for people

Enough of all this mud slinging to and fro, I challenge you to give me one bible that proves the insignificane of sabbath keeping
or you can reply on the new thread that i started

7 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

If you are looking for the remnant that places importance on rightly dividing the word, you might check out John Lynn, Gerald Wrenn, Vince Finnigan, or the host of others on-line. See if these men want to rightly divide the word with you.

Thanks pal for pointing me in the right direction and let me know the existing climate in gsc so I know the type of
people I am mainly dealing with.

To all people in this forum, I am sorry if I have hurt in anyway.

I now know what the gsc forum is mainly for and how to handle negative reactions on doctrinal issues and not get defensive
I probably wont be posting here in regards to the word of God (bible) but you are welcome to contact me if you want to know
how the 7th day sabbath fits into God's plan for the salvation f mankind

To all those who read my posts, I know you will not be interested- so that's ok with me- no hard feelings
we are all personally accountable only to the Lord Jesus Christ on judgement day

God bless you all
Regards
Waxit

53 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Waxit, please stop being so insulting.  Particularly towards me (is that because you know me?). 

And do NOT attribute things to me that I haven't said.  There is one VPW worshipper between you and me, AND IT ISN'T, AND NEVER HAS BEEN, ME!  You may think you are not a VPW-worshipper, and you do speak against his behaviour (quite rightly) but (together with an overlay of other things you have read later) you continue to : refer to, quote, use, and otherwise adhere to, many of the things he taught in PFAL, in a way that sounds, whether you mean it or not, like a VPW-worshipper.  .

I was never a VPW worshipper- I am a True God Worshipper and I didnt say you are a vpw worshipper 
I am just saying that he staged a perfect act and that's why most didnt suspect that he was a conman and we devoted many years to a cult
If he had frequent misspellings in his books and bad grammar - maybe we would have suspected him but it was all perfect- so we accepted him
and stayed on but look where it has ended up. The true  heart of a person is a better judge of character and whether you can trust a person to do good
and not lie
So i didnt mean to insult you- so dont take it the wrong way
 

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

If you're flubbing the less important, people won't trust you with the more important.

Bud- this has nothing to do with the word of God> Yes with the word of God, everysingle detail is important but the word of God is not in 
question here - so dont equate name misspelling with the word of God
Of course i do take into account misspelling but to say -you cant be trusted with more important things- is something you want other people
to aceept unfairly. I thought you were a fair dinkum (aussie expression) but looks like you are showing your true colours- not good
I apologise Allan if i spelt your name wrongly

1 hour ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Would your pearls be better cast in more fertile ground with another website or other persons? Your pearls have definitely been trampled under foot by everyone at GSC who have responded to your posts. I don't know if you realize it, or not,  but you have been turned on and torn to pieces. 

Stayed Too Long

You maybe right! It's funny though- I kid you not, I just listen to the song- "It's time to say goodbye" by Anrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman
What a classic- Both of them are amazing singers and anyway I enjoyed the song very much and maybe I just need to to sing the song here
and say good bye..
Hey WordWolf I did apologise to T-Bone for some mean things I might have said-
The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when
a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearly a commandment in God's word)
he gets a hiding. Wait till you face Jesus Christ-  and your face will turn pale for rejecting what is clearly a commandment
of God. I have showed you in so many ways why it's an immutable commandment of God- and scriptures, left, right and
centre- I dont have any hiddent agenda unlike TWI. But if you want to analyse yourself not to do God's sabbath keeping
commandment -so be it- all the best-see you at the judgment seat- where I also will be examined

It's like people on gsc gang up on me. I am not saying everyone is like this but most except for one other person
I know and have stayed with and respect
Contrary to what I think I have not be "torn" to pieces ( I laugh)- that's absolutely not true- "torn" is what you think- anyone can talk rubbish without 
focussing on bible chapter and verse and that's what's happeining.
People cannot come back to me and point out what a verse is saying contrary to what I have been pointing out
(I am not boasting- but what I have researched and know- I am to explain- If there is something I cannot explain
I will gladly take time to research it and explain when it is clear to me)
Most people dont do this - they go on about technical analysis- T-Bone would be the best example.
If all you guys are interested in technical analysis rather than the word of God then go for it.
The nay sayers wait for someone to give a reply then they pounce on an insignificant  phrase which they can tear down and just chow down on it
instead of focussing intently on scripture verses and learning the honest truth from the word of God

Thanks for your advice though- I will consider it 

FYI- I started a new thread because I think it was Waysider that suggestedI might be better off starting a new thread
This thread so we can focuss on the bible verses that either shows the importance or the insignificance of 
sabbath keeping. I asked for bible verses to discuss and so far no one has come up with anything to discuss on that
thread










 

23 minutes ago, Twinky said:

And, as I said, I am firm in my belief that if the obvious is incorrect, the less obvious is suspect.

What is obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else- not everyone is as smart as you are 

I don't get it, you are telling me
 that you are not influencing anybody's perceptionw of me but your above quote is clearly
telling people overall that I am "suspect" and people like me must be scrutinied- vpw is ok- because he has all his "i"s dottd and "t"'s crossed
perfect grammar yes! you did think
he was the best since sliced bread (LOL) at one stage, didnt you but i am suspect -  nothing is said about my actual message or contents
but because I missed something "obvious" to you- i must be suspect in the less obvious- peolple should look carefully
because I might be a conman
Twinky, you are on the leaderbord so people are going to respect you and when you say statements like this:
And, as I said, I am firm in my belief that if the obvious is incorrect, the less obvious is suspect.
they are going to have a negative bias even before they start reading my messages on open forum
Can you not see how subtly, you may be influencing others negatively in open forum instead of letting
them make up their own minds?

Regards
Waxit


 

It doesnt matter mate- It can be a short form- dont make a big deal of it
Harsh words stirreth up strife but gentle words can break a bone
A Kind word gets the job done but anger produces resistance- especially if it is 
no big deal- like i said it's not a legal document

Have a pleasant day
Waxit

19 hours ago, Twinky said:

Waxit, not overly impressed with your ability to see, understand and learn.  You said:

Well, you quoted the post from the person you are replying to.  And if you look carefully, at the quote you posted, it's headed with his "handle" and with the slightest amount of attention, you will see he is called ALLAN - not Alan.  Indeed, I know you've known this man for - gosh, it must be 30 years.  And he's posted on this very thread several times.

You say you do all this study "because [you] love people."  One of the fundamentals to demonstrate that you love people is to get their name right.

Something I carry away from TWI is: if people can't get the obvious correct, they surely are not reliable in what they say about what's less obvious.

I think you are jumping to conclusions too quickly and casting doubts on my realiability, just on the basis
of one missing letter. What you think is obvious may not necessarily be obvious for whatever reason

Yeah sure- you can get all the names correctly and can still be the biggest rat bag in town.
Do you make it a habit of just judging a person just on misspellings or wrong posting
which might be an honest mistake
I know you are in the legal professional but this is not a legal document I am writing
HA told LCM to get his name right!  HA also used to arrange his clothing meticulously
and they are both sewer rats
It's in the heart bud

Alan knows me more than you do - I have even been in his fellowship before.
Yes! we do have our differences but we have always respected each other
People even sometimes spell my name wrongly and it is an honest mistake
and I don't jump on their throats

I think it's unfair for you to cast doubts on my love for people and unrealibility
 just on the basis of a misspelling and a post neglecting the considerable amount
of time I spend when I could be doing something else

A Poem called "Kind Word Never Fails"
Go to https://images.app.goo.gl/waGTd289px2zzUdS7

No hard feelings- I still love all people including you regardless even if you choose to think
otherwise

Regards
Gabe
 

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 

18 hours ago, Allan said:

I've always found it interesting that Isaiah 28:11 is quoted in 1Corinthians 14:21 and it appears to be about the the OT prophesy of a day when Gods' people would speak in tongues and glorify Him in spirit and truth and in Isaiah it is called the 'rest' and the 'refreshing' (v12)

Hi Alan - Hopefully you will get something out of this- I spent quite a bit of time because I know that God will bless me and deepen my understanding
It's a sacrifice of my time- Not because i want to boast- it's because I love people- iron sharpeneth iron

I have had to study Isaiah 28:11 backwards and forwards and 1 Cor 14:21 and getting feedback from a couple of sources and prayed to God for understanding.
Without the spirit of truth, we can go round and round and not understand it- as good as speaking in toungues as a gift of the Holy Spirit
vpw the spiritual idiot used it to promote himself to increase his "authority" and recognition and did not abide by the keys and principles in right dividing of the word
wwhen it came into important topics and led people to think what he wanted them to think. He always rightly divided the word when it came to insignificant things like for instance "Paul's thorn in the flesh"
Thats why i call him an spiritual idiot because misled people and only used right diviiding of the word when it suited him so anything like the sabbath will be binned 

Very often when we taken a verse in isolation without seeing where it's taken from and God is actually referring to
then we can make a mistake and will be in error.
It's like if you took an electrical switch from your television and fitted it into your car. Will it fit? It wont work will it?
So it's the same with the word of God taken out of context - it's happened to me quite a few times

If you look at the of Isaiah 28- it's  about God wanting to communicate and teach the tribe of Ephraim  (God's word-truth, law and commandments)
to build them up. He starts by giving it to the Ephaimites left right and centre for their pride and drunkeness (physical) vs 1-8
Boy! I wouldnt have wanted to be in their shoe for their complete ignorance, vanity and pride
How horrible can it get for these guys in Isaiah 28:8

⁸ For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Everywhere he looked there was filth (spiritual as well) and He is asking whom  can he teach and show the way

⁹ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that
   are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts

(People who are meek and humble and cry out to God for knowledge and understanding)
Almost to the point of when a child cries out to the Father for understanding
Proverbs 2:1-5

1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

² So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

³ Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;

⁴ If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;

⁵ Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.
Isaiah 28

¹⁰ For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
(Sometimes to get a complete picture of what the verse is actually saying, we have got to go
 different parts of the bible and the verses before and the verses after- all the verses that relate to the same subject- so you can see Allan, leading up to vs 11
Notice it's about the knowledge of God's  word (laws and commandments) - it's not about speaking in tongues as such

¹¹ For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
(The Ephraimites were not only physically drunk but worse than that they were spiritual drunk with their own vanity, pride 
  and ignorance. This is why when God communicated knowledge and truth from His word to the spiritually drunk Ephraimites, it was as though
He was speaking to them in a foreign language and very strange to them i,e stammering lips and another tongue)
Why would God need to speak to them in toungues- No! Thats not what he is doing here, rather he appears to the Ephraiites to speak in a foreign tongue
because they are spiritually drunk with false ideologies and combine that with pride,vanity and arogance- so what have you -spiritual stupor on the part of Ephraimies causing them not to understand or receive God's word?
 

¹² To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
(So when God is saying- this is the rest - He is referring what he has been talked about all along- a knowledge of God's word,truth,laws & commandments
that is designed to give them rest and set them free from their toils and snares(spiritual enslavement to satan)
because of their state of spirital drunkeness, they were not able to receieve and rejected it

Jesus Christ (Lord of the Sabbath) said  (This keeps coming up in my conversations on sabaath, I don't know if you are taking notice?
The Lord when teaching always spoke in spiritual terms and He said Learn of me- 
Jesus Chrit is also the Word of God (Laws & Commandments of God)

Matthew 11:28 

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

(spiritual rest that comes from observing and doing God's commandments)

 

¹³ But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line,
    line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
    and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

When the Ephraimites heard the word of God which was supposed to give rest and refreshing, (they stumbled and fell 
what was good turned out bad for them because they were lifted up invanity and pride - they would not hear and it left
them in a very bad shape spiritually - deaf and blind even the word of God was being fed to them

Paul citing 1 Cor 14:21 referring to
1 Cor 14-21

²¹ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Here Paul is quoting directly from Isaiah 28:11-12

¹¹ For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. (This is how it came across to Eprahaim)

¹² To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
   (God's word is refreshing and brings rest to the hearers who are able to receieve it)

So what Is Paul saying in 1 Cor 14:20-21?  Same thing as what Isaiah is saying in 28:11-12 
In 1 Cor 14 although the subject is speaking in tongues and prophesy 
( rest in Isaiah 28:12  is referring to teaching of God's word not speaking in tongues)
Paul is using Isaiah 28:12 as a word for word quote to convey the meaning as it is used in Isaiah 28:12
that without the proper heart and attitude, speaking in tongues or the teaching of God's word will
be meaningless
{So I Corr 4:21 where the word "rest" is used should not be tied to speaking in tongues but rather
how it is used in Isaiah 28:12- The word of God (laws & commandments when it is observed and followed though
will bring rest and refreshment spiritually}
So if one is puffed up with pride, vanity,ignorance and lack of love,iinstead of being spiritul music to our ears,
it will be like a strange language with a lot of noise
So what is the heart and attitude we need to have, in order to be able to hear and benefit from the speaking in tongues  according to Paul? 
Have a look right at the beginning of
I Cor 14:
Follow after charity...... (love of God)
We saw earlier how the Ephraimites were spiritually drunk lifted up in their own vanity, pride and ignorance
and this is why they couldnt hear and refused the teaching of God
and as a result when God taught them His word, laws and commnandments, he was as someone speaking
in a foreign tongue that was strange to them

Regards

Waxit

Just now, T-Bone said:

"A brain is an organ that serves as the center of the nervous system in all vertebrate and most invertebrate animals. It is located in the head, usually close to the sensory organs for senses such as vision. It is the most complex organ in a vertebrate's body. In a human, the cerebral cortex contains approximately 14–16 billion neurons,[1] and the estimated number of neurons in the cerebellum is 55–70 billion.[2] Each neuron is connected by synapses to several thousand other neurons. These neurons communicate with one another by means of long protoplasmic fibers called axons, which carry trains of signal pulses called action potentials to distant parts of the brain or body targeting specific recipient cells."

from: Wikipedia, the brain

Thanks Doc- I will publish your findings in the scientific journal

16 hours ago, waysider said:

Historians, Biblical scholars and anthropologists has questioned the very existence of Moses for some time now.

Contact them and tell them - nobody has seen their brain physically therfore they aint got one

12 hours ago, Waxit said:

Waxit - I disagree with your assessment that Colossians 2:16 is referring to a converted gentiles new way of life as a Christian. The context is referring to the feast days, the new moon festivals and sabbath days. The New Moon festivals were known as the Rosh Chodesh in Hebrew. Numbers 10:10 mentions the Rosh Chodesh:

Hi Infoabsorption
I trust you read my first message to you on the importance of the sabbath.
and the new testament bible verses in Hebrews 4 where God puts a strong emphasis on sabbath keeing 
Here's the second message in reply to your understanding of Colossians 2:16
It's a long message but bear with me and I assure you will get an accurate understanding
and it will clear your doubts about sabbath keeping

Colossians 2:16
 

¹⁶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Ok! Let me clarify myself so you can understand where i am coming from
Although Col 2:16 is not directly making mention of a converted gentiles new way of life- if you back up right to the top in Colossians 1, you will
see that Colossians was specifically written to the church at Colosse- predominantly gentiles although they did have a strong jewish
minority

One of the first things in rightly interpreting the word of God among other things in the new testament especially in Paul's epistles
is to see who it was written and what was the problem that was being addressed by Paul
If you look the book of hebrews, you will see rtight from th start that it was written specifically to converts from judaism and you
can see  Paul explaining the situation to the jewish converts, their position preJesus Christ
andhow  the accomplishment of Jesus Christ puts the jewish believer in a much better and excellent position
and he illustrates with examples that a jewish conver would readily grasp
For instance Heb 3:5-6
 

⁵ And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

⁶ But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

So we have to understand that in Colossians, it's primarily a gentile congrgation that Paul is addressing
If we get this wrong or ignore who it is being written to then  it's more than likely the interpretation of the word will be wrong
or something will not quite fit and we end up with assumptions that are not true. or we are left wondering what is the correct interpretation from the word of God

Ok! back to  Colossians to answer the issue with Col 2:16
Who is Paul writing to and what's the problem at Colosse
Colossians 1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

² To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Background of the Colossians

Located about 100 miles east of Ephesus, Colossae was a Graeco-Phrygian city in the Roman proconsular of Asia also known as Asia Minor.
It was one of three cities located in the Lycus Valley (Colossae, Hierapolis, and Laodicea) that formed an important trade route,
a virtual meeting point between east and west. Colossae was about ten miles from Laodicea and thirteen miles from Hierapolis.
At one time Colossae had been a large and populous city, but when Paul wrote to the Colossian church, it had become
just a small town in contrast to its nearest neighbors, Hierapolis and Laodicea

By virtue of its location along an important trade route Colosse was exposed to all kinds of cultural influences
and religious beliefs. They had syncretism -a mix of different belief systems- much like today's ecumenical movement -
where anything goes and everything is right. What right do you have in telling me that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father and salvation?
This is the sort of harassment, the colossians were hammered with.
Secondly,gnosticism- where they believed matter or your body is irrelevant- it didnt matter what you did with your body-
(vpw would have been happy with this -he could have all the sex he wanted), it was the pure "spirit" that was important to the gnostics (yeah right! more like devil spirits)
You name it Colosse would have had it. The confusing poupourri of religious belief systems  all wanting to exert it's influence on the gentile colossians
Simply put the colossians were in a spiritual mess, they didnt know what to believe

Paul writes this letter from Ephesus which is 100 miles east of Colosse to the Colossians by the hands of one Epaphras(resident of Colosse)
and beloved servant of God

Please note the colossans understanding of what is wrong and what is right was mixed up and  they were coming under fire for
practising true christian beliefs and Paul is both straigthening them out and exhorting themto practise the truth as commanded by God
The colossians being part of a heavy traffic and important trade route were coming into contact and under pressure to incorporate
syncretic and gnostic belief systems into their new found christian faith
As a result they are being bombarded- dont eat this, dont drink this, then you might have the orthodox jews (phraisaical)  telling them taste not,
touch not from their huge list of man made traditions-  like the 613 rules of the mosaic law that you mentioned earlier
which God didnt command 

That's why Paul is telling the colossians not to take notice of those from the syncretic and gnostic party trying to stick their
false religious beliefs on to the colossians

So all the false rubbish being being bandied about (touch not/taste note/vain philosphy/angel rubbish
 shouldnt be jumbled up with the keeping of the 7th day sabbath and holy days, meat and drink during holy days which is legit
this is the mistake people make when trying to make sense of Col 2:16.
They look at all the  false practices mentioned in Colossians and just slap it on to the sabbath and the holy days
It's like throwing out the baby with the bath water

Because of the huge number of negatives in Colossians- dont to this and dont do that etc, people automatically
think that sabbath and the holy days must also be negative which is simply not rue

Just to give you an analogy of how easy to have an understanding that is opposite to what the word of God is saying
is the example of gold mining

What is important is to sort out out the gold from the corrupt and impure horse manure of satan and his syncretism/gnostic/jewish tradition agents
If you dont do that- yup- it's like going gold mining and coming away empty- you come across what's looks like it has gold nuggets. 
and you swivel the clump of dirt around in a pan and all you can see dirt o and you say Nah! it's all dirt mate- because it's full of dirt at the top
 you reckon the whole shebang must be dirt
So US$100,00 gets thrown away with the dirt because the gold was not allowed to surfce to the top.

I will explain about what the new moon fesitvals- what it's relevance is- incidentally  God's holy days,
new moon festivals were never a commanded observance

I would also like to bring your attention so you can see sabbath and holy days are actually commanded practices by God
Colossians 2:16-17
 

¹⁶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

¹⁷ Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

If you hold the view that in vs 16 it says :  Do not allow anyone to judge you for not observing the sabbath, the holy days and for the type meat you eat or the type of drinks you have then vs 17 doesnt make sense
Why? because in vs 17- it plainly says these are similiar things- sabbath and the holy days that are actually going to take place in the future i.e which are a shadow of things to come
So why would Paul say: Hey guys, dont practise this now because thee are true practices that will also happen in the  future - doesnt make sense does it?

We need to understand that Paul was confronting a heresy in his letter to the Colossians. False teachers had infiltrated the congregation in Colosse. These deceivers had influenced the Colossian Christians by introducing their own religious philosophy. This prompted Paul to warn the Colossians, “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit according to the tradition of men” (Colossians 2:8). Humanly devised tradition—not the revealed instructions of God’s Word in the Bible—was the problem Paul was countering. Earlier Jesus had taken the Pharisees to task over the same kind of problem. They also had elevated their traditions to greater importance than God’s commandments (Mark 7:8-13).

Paul tried to keep the Colossians focused on Christ as the head of the Church (Colossians 1:18; Colossians 2:10-19). But these false teachers were trying to persuade them to direct their worship toward angels (Colossians 2:18) and neglect their own bodies (Colossians 2:23). No such distorted ideas are taught anywhere in the Scriptures.

Paul characterized the Colossian heresy as “empty deceit” and “the basic principles of the world” (Colossians 2:8). The deceivers were persuading the Colossians to ignore plain biblical instruction in favor of “traditions of men.”

What type of deceitful regulations did Paul combat? “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle … according to the commandments and doctrines of men” (Colossians 2:21-22). The heretics advocated man-made regulations concerning physical things that “perish with the using” (verse 22).

Why is this important? The deceivers were probably forerunners of a major religious movement, gnosticism, that flourished in the second century. They did not represent the mainstream Jewish thinking of that day, nor were they faithful to the Scriptures.

They believed salvation could be obtained through constant contemplation of what is “spiritual”—to, as Paul explained, the “neglect” of the physical body (Colossians 2:23). It appears they believed in various orders of angels and in direct human interaction with angels.

Paul indicates they regarded all physical things, including the human body, as decadent. He explicitly states that the heresies he was countering “concern things which perish with the using [physical things] according to the commandments and doctrines of men” (Colossians 2:22). Paul tells us he was countering human commandments and doctrines—not the commandments of God.

The Colossian heretics had introduced various man-made prohibitions—such as “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” (Colossians 2:21)—against the enjoyment of physical things. They especially objected to the pleasurable aspects of God’s festivals—the eating and drinking aspects—that are commanded in the Scriptures (Deuteronomy 12:17-18).

When Paul wrote, “… Let no one judge you in food …” (Colossians 2:16), he wasn’t discussing what types of foods they should or should not eat. The Greek word brosis, translated “food,” refers not to the kinds of foods one should or should not eat, but to “the act of eating” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Food”). The point is that the deceivers disdained feasting—any type of eating and drinking for enjoyment.

Paul instructed the Colossian Christians not to be influenced by these false teachers’ objections to eating, drinking and rejoicing on Sabbaths, feast days and new moons.

Perhaps we should, at this point, mention the relationship between new moons and God’s festivals. The dates for observing God’s festivals are determined by a lunar calendar. Therefore new moons—which mark the beginning of the months—are important for establishing correct festival dates. Unlike God’s Holy Days, however, new moons are not commanded observances in the Scriptures. In the Millennium the custom of making the arrival of each new moon a special occasion will again be restored (Isaiah 66:23), but no biblical command exists now that requires their observance.

Now back to Paul’s main point: The Colossian deceivers had no authority to judge or determine how the Colossians were to observe God’s festivals. That is why Paul said, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days …” (Colossians 2:16-17, King James Version).

Notice that Paul tells them to reject false human judgment, not the judgment of God found in the Scriptures.

At this point we should note another grammatical matter. The words “respect of” are translated from the Greek noun meros, which denotes a part of something. Therefore a more accurate rendering of what Paul wrote would be “Let no man therefore judge you … in any part of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days …”

Paul is simply being consistent. Eating or drinking is an appropriate part of Sabbath and feast-day observance according to the Scriptures. Therefore Paul uses meros (“part”) to cover all parts or aspects of God’s Holy Days that these heretics might condemn or criticize. Nothing in this passage even suggests that God abolished His Sabbaths or Holy Days, nor authorized Paul to do so. Succumbing to the judgmental influence of those early gnostic heretics is what Paul condemns, not the observance of Sabbaths and feast days.

God’s festivals are times for joy and celebration. He commands us to attend them and rejoice with our children—our entire family (Deuteronomy 12:5-7; Deuteronomy 14:26). He wants us to delight in them. No wonder Paul condemns the misguided ascetic philosophy of the Colossian heretics with such vigor. Paul was defending the Christians’ right to enjoy feasting at God’s holy festivals.

Conclusion:
Paul is encouraging the Colossians to stand strong and do not give in to false heresies and wrong teachings
contrary to what they were already observing, in { keeping sabbath and holy days} and {enjoying  the sabbaths by having your meals with meat and drinks

The new moons sighing were not a commanded observance and was simply there so people could mark the beginning of a new month
in accurately deciding on the holy feasts commanded by God

Colosians 2:16 

¹⁶ Let no man therefore judge you ( in what you are already doing as part of your christian belief)
       in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Regards
Waxit
 

On 4/15/2020 at 11:44 AM, Infoabsorption said:

Here is my 2 cents worth with regards to the sabbath. I agree that the sabbath was the 7th day (Saturday) and the change to the first day (Sunday) was a man-made construct. The question arises: does God require Christians in this day & time to still observe a sabbath? I think it is an important question and there doesn't appear to be any direct answers from the New Testame I believe it is a very good idea to take 1 day out of the week to rest and pray etc. There definitely is nothing wrong with it and I think it's a very healthy way to live but I tend to agree with T-Bone that a sabbath is no longer a requirement for Christians based upon Colossians 2:16.

Waxit - I disagree with your assessment that Colossians 2:16 is referring to a converted gentiles new way of life as a Christian. The context is referring to the feast days, the new moon festivals and sabbath days. The New Moon festivals were known as the Rosh Chodesh in Hebrew. Numbers 10:10 mentions the Rosh Chodesh:

Also at your times of rejoicing—your appointed festivals and New Moon feasts—you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the Lord your God.”

Were new gentile Christians back then instructed to observe the New Moon festivals? I seriously doubt it. Here is another thing to consider. Are Christians now required to sound trumpets over burnt offerings on Hebrew new moon days? I do believe that the Jewish Christians living in Judea were observing all of the holy days and sabbaths etc. based on Matthew 5:18. Christ stated that the smallest letter or stroke would not pass from the Law until heaven and earth pass away. "Heaven & earth" being a symbol of the first century Temple that was destroyed in 70AD. After 70 AD all of that ended.

If you look on down at verse 20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, ²¹ (touch not; taste not; handle not; The "touch not" "taste not" and "handle not" seemingly comes from among the rules of the Pentateuch regarding food. This chapter in Colossians seems to be referring to a new Christians freedom from the 613 commandments of the Mosaic Law.  

Hi Infoabsorption
Thank you for your feedback on sabbath keeping on what is scriptural and what is manmade
i.e The 7th day sabbath is saturday but the Ist day sabbath- sunday is manmade
It's worth a lot more than 2 cents, I can tell you that. The fact that you are already saying it's a good idea to devote one day
of the week as a sabbath is a good sign because that is what God the creator had in mind when He made man.
God specially made the sabbath for man to bless mankind 
Mark 2:27 

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man........

I will now attempt to answer from the bible( word of God) what i have highligthed in bold which i think are some of your
disagreements with me and also your doubts and concerns.

I will provide the answers one question at a time so it wont be a huge amount all at one go

(1) Does God require Christians in this day & time to still observe a sabbath?
       I think it is an important question and there doesn't appear to be any direct answers from the New Testament 

The early christians (new testament christians) both jew and gentile converts in the book of acts always kept the sabbath
Paul ministered to the gentiles with churches in corinth, galatia and colossae so it was not merely following a jewish custom
of sabbath keeping. Sabbath was insituted right from the beginning of the 7th day creation before Abraham, Issac was born

because if it was then they would have also had to accept circumcision which the Gentiles didnt need to do
but there is no such changes or modification when it came to sabbath keeping
Romans 2:29 

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,
and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So the question arises if the 7th day sabbath was not important  and was not commanded by God
why were the early christians only keeping the 7th day sabbath in the book of Acts
In fact if you go through the book of Acts, you will see the early christians keeping the sabbath a total of 85 times (Wow)

85 times- This itself must tell you how important 7th day sabbath keeping was
 

Ok! Now i will provide you with a direct new testament scripture which speaks about God's heavy emphasis on 7th day sabbath keeping
Hebrews 4:1-4

1 Let us therefore fear (respect), lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

² For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
  (The act of sabbath keeping must be in faith)

³ For we which have believed do enter into rest (early christian believers that keep the sabbath) 
   as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
   (Sabbath was instituted when God finished the work of creation)

⁴ For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.