Waxit

On 4/18/2020 at 3:02 AM, Allan said:

I remember someone saying that "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" 

That's right Allan- You hit the nail on the head -Mark 2:27
God loved his creaion and He created the 7th day as a sabbath- rest 
and turned his creation's attention to him as the God the creator (worship)
So if God specifically made the 7th day sabbath for man- How come people ignore it?

 

20 hours ago, Waxit said:

I am sorry for the little child remark- I have to show you more respect- that was uncalled for
even if i felt  a bit upset that that you were not tracking and not recognising the importance of what i am sharing. 
Anyway, it's just how i feel-bacause i talk about "a" and you go on a wild journey about "b"  and they are unrelated
You dont have to reply to this because its my own opinion

 

 

16 hours ago, WordWolf said:

BTW,

Nobody questioned whether or not Christians moved a Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.   Wasting your energy to "prove" that may make you feel like you got somewhere, but you didn't.  As to if they celebrated a Sabbath,  well, that's equally irrelevant to discuss.  I think we all agree that many if not most celebrated a Sabbath.  "That is as interesting as it is irrelevant." 

Now, were they SUPPOSED to celebrate A Sabbath?

THAT is the relevant question.    They did it.  They thought it was right to do so.   Did God say it was necessary for them to do so?  

You're actually derailing your own discussion when you don't focus there, and when you start getting personal with the other posters.  Don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're addressing any points when you get personal.  We've all seen it before, and it didn't work then.   (Me, I was labelled "Satan" once when I dared to point out one of vpw's many harmful policies,  and that he had no excuse for having it and for supposed ignorance it was harmful.  For example.)

 

Please take a few deep breaths, and approach this thread FRESH.   If you were trying to make a point, I think it's gotten completely lost.  Please find your points and focus there. Thank you.

Can i ask you ( It's obvious but I would like an answer- so i can make my point so people wont get lost
- Is the 7th day Sabbath- a law or commandment that is a part of the 10 commandments that was given by God to all christians?

16 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Waxit, some things....

1) Stop posting emotionally,  and stop taking things personally.  The idea is that we DISCUSS.  When we discuss, we will, sooner or later, disagree.  That's normal, and expected in a discussion forum.   What do we do when people disagree with us?  We don't declare we're right and they're wrong.  We can BELIEVE that's true and hold convictions that's true, but our BELIEF that it's so doesn't change anything.  There are plenty of people who BELIEVE in things like a flat earth, and that vpw was some super-believer, but their CONVICTION doesn't make it so (and they may be fanatical about that.)    We can declare what we believe, just not that it's "obviously the truth" because it's not "obvious" if there's disagreement.   We can try to present our "case" so that others will agree with us.  We can also pay attention, because we may discover that someone else was right all along, and we may find that the truth was something else, even something we didn't WANT to believe.   (I'm speaking from personal experience- I've had others come to agree with me, I've changed to match what I believe was actually the truth even if it reverses my position.)   

2) Declaring something's true by fiat STILL doesn't work. In a DISCUSSION forum, we DISCUSS.  We can present our case that something is true.  Perhaps someone else will add something that makes it a stronger case.  More often, they'll point out flaws.  Those can be flaws of communication (you MEANT something but SAID something else), of fact (you explained the Greek word used here, but you named the wrong Greek word) ,  or other problems.    These can be addressed, and result in either a stronger case, or the discovery that you can't answer the important questions and may be wrong.

3)  Don't type angry.  Rather than type angry, get up from the computer, and do something else. Come back in a few hours (or a day), when you can approach things calmly.  Whenever I find someone's accusing a CALM poster of being angry, it's usually been because THEY were posting angry and didn't have anything logical to say to refute the other guy's point. So, accuse them of something and pretend you addressed some imaginary flaw in their  "argument". 

Thanks Bro- Appreciated

16 hours ago, Allan said:

Waxit...take a big breather brutha ! I know you were like this when you were passionate back in the 'way days' so just as you were flogging a dead horse then, maybe consider you're flogging a differn't but STILL dead horse lol...there are many Christians who enjoy freedom IN Christ and will not be brought 'under the power' of any...FULLSTOP. That is our prerogative and I'm sure we continue to evaluate our lives and beliefs on a week by week if not daily basis. Perhaps that's one of the reasons for assembling together, to observe and evaluate ? However, which DAY that happens to be is down to ones own belief according to their interpretation of the Word of God. Should they meet 4 times a week does that make them a 'multiple sabbath keeper' ? Free to love, free to give, free to serve !!

Hi Allan- Thanks bro for your advice.
The bible is very clear to set one specific day as a sabbath- the 7th day.-Saturday(it is God's appointed day) (People will interpret it they feel is right-that's their business)
Besides the 7th day sabbath (a special day dedicated to God) , if people want to meet every hour, i say to them go for your life
In practical terms, nobody will want to have muliple sabbaths in a week- God understands that

TWI was 5% ok (keys to rightly interpreting the word of God) and 95% rubbish ( classes where people were being trapped in shaping their mindset towards leadership)
The classes TWI ran (I am not saying everyone does this) were designed to get peoples money and (1) admiration- (pfal), (2) adoration (intermediate & advanced)
(3)  loosening of sex boundaries (christian family and sex) 
I have got absolutely no hidden agenda for reaching out to people- the reason i do it is because God wants everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth
and what He has taught me through His word- Ilovingly  hold forth- People dont receive- That's fine- I just move on

I reach out to people because i love them- maybe there are people where it will click for them- Praise God and they can go to deepen their understanding
of the word of God- not go into a way home and be dominated, controlled and manipulated- another bad mistake on my part
Unfortunately my passion for God was wasted in the wrong crowd at TWI-  I regret very much for getting hooked
but if there is any consolation,  I did meet wonderful people like yourself and Twinky ( I mean it)
You are right- It's pointless in flogging a dead horse (i.e people whose minds are made up-
(no offence to people in this category- it is just a way of describing a 
situation)
I must know when to say goodbye. 

Regards
Waxit

15 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Oh, and another small detail - since you're in a huff about me referring to a secular source - I’m not the one who first posted/referred to the Wikipedia article on the Sabbath in Christianity – you did. You focused on one segment of the many twists and turns that the Sabbath in Christianity has experienced throughout the history of Christianity. I focused on the position now dominant in Christianity.

Ok! aoplogies maybe I used the wrong word and rant is not the word< I should be using
Whatever- you can continue to find insignificant details-
that has nothing to with sabbath keeping.
That has been the case with with every argumen that you brought up.

But you will never bring up and answer why for over 378 years since the early christians, there was no such thing
as a sunday service or sabbayh (Why? Because you cannot answer this and it will put a serious question mark on your anti 7th day sabbath
bias

In regards to wikipedia, i did refer you to it true  but the point was this: rc is pagan and sabbath was very much an
established practice so to try and bring christians into their fold- they didnt abolish sabbath keeping because iit would
against what the christians consider as important so they compromised by changing the sabbath from 7th day as commanded by
God to the 1st day (Sun-day in favour of their sun god worship).
The protestants were forced to accept it because of the decree by Emperor Constantine- It was not as if they had the freedom and liberty
(as you are saying) to accept whichever day they wanted to keep sabbath.
It was only after his that the significance of the 7th day sabbath was lost among the so called christian churches

I am sure you might try and argue with something else like a little child that has to have the last word
but i will try and ignore it

Sayonara- No hard feelings

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath i

Hopefully this will be my last post to you
There you go again, if you can find any detail no matter how insignificant, you make it a major
like as if this quote from wikipedia is grounds that sabbath is insignificant

Reading the above quote, I can see that .The rc church adopted the sabbath and changed it to  a sunday-
Even after the early christians, sabbath was such an established practise that it was well known
rc which is pagan "adopted" the sabbath because that was the practise of prevailing christianity but what they did was to change the 
sabbath from saturday to sunday, which mainline christianity blindly followed

The above quote is from wikipedia which is a secular source and  being non christian, I wouldnt except them to be
clued up on the significance of God's irrevocabale 7th day Sabbath.
They are speaking from a historical basis on what they feel has happened.
In this case the rc church wwhich is full of paganism adopted the sabbath making it "christian"
but changed it from saturday to sunday. They even tell you that 7th day sabbath keeping is biblical and sunday keeping was man made
(rc church tradition)
and they forced it upon everyone else trough the emperor constantine. This is why most of christianity "adopted" this sunday sabbath- not because
they were at libert to do so. It was a decree from Emperor Constantine and they had no choice but to follow it or face death

Bud why dont you go and read "how christians" were persecuted and put to death for keeping the sabbath.
You make the claim that christians were at total liberty in regards to sabbath keeping but that;s not true
For starters, Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath (which I am sure, you will ignore) Secondly the sabbath commandment
is from God and He will never contradict his commandment etched in stone and thirdly
it is said of Jesus Christ being the Lord of the sabbath in Hebrews- that he is the same yesterday, today and forever

With all true christians from the early christian downwards, sabbath was not adopted or optional- it was a given.
The true christians know the clear cut commandment of God and it was an established practise until
Constantine changed it in around 381 ad
Exodus 20:

⁸ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

⁹ Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

¹⁰ But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

¹¹ For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Do not treat the wikipedia like as it's the bible. 
No! 7th day sabbath keeping is God's commandment e as I have shown you earlier, he has etched in stone which speaks 
of permanence. What Christ accomplished on the cross was to free us from the law of sin and death and reconciled us to the
Father. That doesn't mean we dont have to keep the 10 commandments - I am sure you will agree as Christians, we are not to lie or steal
So why is it that out of all the 10 commandments- the 4th sabbath keeping commandment is the only commandment that we ignore and
do contrary what is says. Our liberty comes from keeping the commandments of God and being freed from captivity by the law of sin and death
Read Romans 7- 

Romans 3:

³¹ Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Goodbye- Over and out- Good Night 

 

28 minutes ago, waysider said:

This is a bit off topic but meant to bring things back on track.

 

The scientific community is quite advanced in their ability to trace the genetic origins of various DNA/RNA. They have used those skills in an effort to hone in on the origins of COVID 19. What they have found is that, although the virus that causes COVID 19 exists in Wuhan, it is not the predominant strain. 

 

Some viruses can, indeed, move back and forth between humans and animals. Known examples of this are bird flu and swine flu. As you state, bats carry a vast array of viruses. And bats are common in Asia. But, for a virus to go from a bat to a human it would typically have to pass through an intermediary host, such as a pangolin. No one is absolutely sure where or when this may have taken place. 

 

Bats are not a delicacy in China. In fact, in some locations, consumption of bats is forbidden. People in poor, rural areas, however, will sometimes resort to bats as a readily available source of protein. While that may seem disgusting to us in the US, consider for a moment that people in poor, rural areas of America will sometimes resort to eating squirrels, raccoons, opossums, rattlesnakes, crayfish, alligators and other wild creatures as a readily available source of protein. 

 

The "Wuhan Connection" appears to have been used as a political tool for scapegoating in recent days. Maybe COVID 19 started in Wuhan and maybe it didn't. What we know for sure is that it isn't man-made and that it jumped from an animal (most likely a wild animal) to a human. It's not relevant to a discussion of Biblical taboos. Furthermore, discussion of this specific topic can quickly takes us into political discourse which is something we don't engage in at GSC.

Thanks for updating me Waysider on Wuhan and how corona virus migh have spread.
Point taken about focussing on biblical topic at hand

 

10 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Listen- I am done with you - you can rant all you like. This is my last conversation with you- You seem so sure of what you saying, yet I can clearly see it's
absolute hog wash- No offence- I think it's better that I end here -otherwise it's a huge waste of time. You have every right to keep commenting and making 
everyone feel that you are such a learned champion. If people want to fall it -it's their business

I am not here to win arguments- I only present the truth and God is the one that will open their eyes as he did for me, if you are meek and humble
(You can pooh pooh me all you like on gsc - I don't care- 
There is not one scripure that you have quoted that has stacked up in showing the insignificane of the 7th day sabbath.- not one
Everytime you bring out a scripture, it has got nothing to do with the sabbath- here you are associating an unrelated incident and tying it to the
sabbath-  "See- it what comes out of your mouth that defiles- nothing else"  
The issue here is the pharisees are complaining to Jesus, about eating food with unwashed hands.
Tell me what has eating food with unwashed hands got anything to do with sabbath keeping. Go figure- you dont have to reply because i am done with you
This is such a blind stab- it's laughable
Yes! Jesus was telling us -eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person, it's what comes out of a man's mouth
which proceeds from his heart- this is what can defile. I fully agree with that
But it has got nothing to do with sabbath keeping

The pharisees would have been the first ones to accuse Jesus- if he or his disciples were not keeping sabbath
But they couldnt do so they did the next "best thing" by their estimates that is to accuse His disciples of not washing
their hands when they ate their food. It doesnt even mention anywhere in that chapter- it was on sabbath and even
if it was on the sabbath - eating food with unwashed hands (which is a man made tradition of the jews)
has got nothing to do with the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment

Over and out- It's pointless me replying to you again

 

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Getting back to what you said “Under the new covenant in Jesus Christ, particluar components like animal sacrifices and physical circumcision may change but the 7th day sabbath commandment devoted to God is etched in stone” , you have yet to provide scriptural evidence to support this statement.

You want scriptural evidence- and I have been giving it to you all along. If this is not scriptural evidence, I dont know what is:

Exodus 31:13

 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you  
throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. 
Clearly God is saying here that keeping the 7th day sabbath is what sets apart God's people from the rest
(Jesus Christ as you know is the Lord's sabbath)

How this for being in etched in stone- by the finger of God?

Exodus 31:16-18
 

¹⁶ Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(7th day sabbath is binding and continues forever)

¹⁷ It is a sign between me and the children of Israel(sign- second time-double emphasis that marks out God's people) for ever:  (i am sure you know the 
    meaning of f-o-r-e-v-e-r
    for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

¹⁸ And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. (Need i say more when i say it was etched in stone)

Futher to the above scriptures, here's is a statement by the rc church who keep sunday as their sabbath day was their church tradition
and plainly state that only the 7th day sabbath is biblical:
These guys know the bible inside out and are proponents of sunday

Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."

"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."

You are not bursting my bubble- because I had a suspicion simply because you dont look at obvious evidence/ historical fact to question
(because you asked me a question- i thought maybe you're catching up but now it's so evident that you are a completely different
track to what God wants you to know, understand and observe. It wont happen because you are too far gone which obsures clear cut scriptural
evidence and historical fact

what you believewill deviate from the subject by saying that if 
have done all the research in the world and poured through all the material from sea to shning sea- maybe I am not doubting
that but I go by the clear word of God. For me the 7th day sabbath is so very crystal clear

Ok! as if all of this was not enough for you
In addition to me showing you that your anti sabbath stand by quoting Romans-doesnt relate to the the sabbath because it types of food eaten on certain days-pagan customs and colossians 2:16 ( It's exactly the opposite of what you want to believe- Paul is encouraging not to take notice of people harasing them
for keeping the sabbath
Your quoting of Peter's vision to back up the fact that contrary to old testament laws "eating of clean meat and avoiding unclean meat
it is now changed because God told Peter- "Arise, kill and eat" shows that the rules have changed and now we are aloowed to eat anything
I showed you clearly that is not the case because- the vision that Peter received has nothing to eat with clean and unclean met or types of food
and everything to do with how Peter was viewing the gentiles as being clean. God chose food as a way of communicating to illustrate
the point that now post Jesus Christ resurrection- the gentiles are made clean.

So 3 scriptures you have quoted and 3 times I have successfully showed you are wrong.
So I cannot understand how some can pour through all the scriptures- with much prayer and careful diligence
can come to the conclusion that 7th day sabbath is not significant. Frankly I am getting a bit tired

I am going to give this one last shot to decide if i should carry on this conversation or end it.
I am pretty close to ending it because your resistance to 4th cmmandment of sabbath is pretty strong
because you are just so sure and I am very unclear with poor technical skills. I honestly think this is a joke.
(Hope you are not offended-This is how i feel)
At least with someone who can see the significance in light of the clarity of God's word, I maybe be open to reasoning
I know what I know and it is without a shadow of a doubt

Ok! Can you answerYou said in your earlier conversations- The early christians gradually over time did not place emphasis on the sabbath. It was a non issue
We all know that the early christians were taught directly by the apostles who in turn were taught directly be Jesus Christ (The Lord of Sabbath)
I dont know if the term "Lord of the Sabbath" is ringing any bells with you or it's passing you by as though you didnt hear it.

Just answer me this one question:
How is it that during the time of the early christians up until 381AD - There was no historical record of sunday sabbath keeping
and it is only after this period that sunday keeping came into force:
 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Just for clarification, when you said “Do you think after this vision, the rules changed and Peter would love to eat bats? Bring it on corona virus- people go against God's commandments of clean and unclean meat and the whole world gets a hiding” – are you suggesting this current pandemic is due to people going against God’s commandments?

Yes!  We all know the corona virus strted out of Wuhan wet market.  This current pandemic has been the direct result of eating cuncleat meats that goes against the
commanadments of God. The bat is capable of housing upto 130 different viruses and it's eaten as a delicacy in China

I hope you are genuinely concerned about the importance of the 7th day sabbath
and I will be really happy if you are
and in light of the information and historical proof I have been sharing with you, you are not deviating from 
the subject in question: 7th day sabbath largely ignored by christians but hugely important
I hope you are begining to realise that maybe, just maybe it's not as you thought it was- insignificant

We dont really have much time before the Lord Returns -"like a thief in the night"- it's light out before you know it
and Jesus Christ our Lord will hold us responsible and it wont be a preety sight
on the day of Judgement because there is nowhere to hide and it will be too late

1 John 3:4

⁴ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

All right- as best I know
Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible as interpreted among the various branches of Christianity.
In Judaism the Hebrew Bible is not only the primary text of instruction for a moral life but also
the historical record of God's promise, first articulated in his covenant with Abraham, to consider the Jews his chosen people.
www.britannica.com

So The old testament was written for all of God's people -and it is the old covenant under Abrahan 
It's different from the new testament where you can see in the epistles to whom it is being written to

The New Testament which is the new covenant in Jesus Christ is a continuation of the old testament

The New Testament Gospels reveal the promised Messiah, the Christ, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
The Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament.
The New Testament is only completely understood in the light of the events, characters, laws,
sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament.
In this way the promises contained in the Old Testament are revealed in the New Testament

2 hours ago, waysider said:

These so-called keys to "rightly dividing the word" have been shown, time and time again, to be a load of equine excrement. They rely heavily on the bogus concept of dispensationalism.

I dont realy give a hoot about dispensatinalism and whatever vw came up with and I am aware of the rubbish  that vw used in guiding people's thoughts away to what
he wanted people to believe by using dispensationalism as an excuse. These are fancy terms that vw used to dazzle people and misguide them
Things like Jesus Christ was in the bosom of the father is absolute c___p from vw
You shouldnt throw the baby with the bath water waysider. 
It is plain common sense, in right dividing of the word is to see to whom the letter was written to. For instance Hebrews was written to jewish believers who converted to christianity
and Colossians was written to Gentiles. To put in our vernacular- if you are writing to a german would you use the spanish language. No! of course not
There is nothing wrong with plain common sense- to whom it was written, wwhat is the cultural evironment of the people being written to, why it wa written/what problem is
Paul addressing. There is nothing wrong with that and it's very important - otherwise there can be all kinds of misinterpretation of the word of God
What i say, we should use our God given brains rather than let some sex pervert dictate what we should believe through his brain washing classes

On 1/25/2020 at 1:10 PM, Twinky said:

I have a distinct recollection of some early "grooming" material ie PFAL, that talks about moving boundaries  Maybe it was in "renewed mind" class.  Cursed are those who remove their neighbours' boundaries.  According to VPW, this is not just the field boundaries (the obvious as referred to in Deut 27 and Prov 22 and Prov 23 (among other places) but the boundaries of other people's minds.  And yet - that's exactly what VPW was doing with us - moving the boundaries of our minds.  For some, who had poor boundaries, that could possibly have been a good thing (note: could.  But the actuality was that boundaries were probably pushed further out in an unhealthy way; vulnerable people were very easy prey).  For most of us, that would be moving the boundaries of good commonsense rules instilled by our parents or society. 

I call this brain washing. See if you are trained to think in a certain way and dwell on it long enough- your mind can be guided by a pig
especially if you have got to the stage where you trust him enough to do his bidding.
When Hitler got up the podium to "preach" hatred of the jews to the nation of Germany,
A lot of people didnt take him seriously but day by day he hammered the same old theme of why
the jews were scoundrels and rats that must be exterminated.
As this went on day after day, there came a time when the people of Germany convinced themselves that the jews must be eradicated
from society. Middle classs and honest christians were volunteering to take turns to take a gun with them
and finish off their given assignments - killing a jew
Ordinarily these honest middle class working people would never even dream of doing such a thing
Why did they do it? They were "protecting" the nation from the "merciless" jews who were going to "enslave"
them. Hitler himself was a devout catholic and was considered a family man

In the case of VPW- it was a case of systematic brainwashing- it's over a series of classes
People are committed to it because they have paid for it- VPW says he is charging because 
people wont take the class and quit if he doesnt put a price for the class- That's right so he can
properly brain wash them to accept him as a creditable, trustworthy and Godly man with the utmost integrity.
He talks about it a lot so it will be etched in people's mind- Satan's servant must have definitely done his homework
The pfal class is the starting point where he builds such an incredible amount of trust and credibility- a "man of God"
honest, truthful and he talks a lot of the heroics of Paul and Jesus Christ was a man's man- That was true
but VPW was helping himself to credibility by associating himself with others with an undeniable proven track record
VPW  was a shameless pig who rode on the reputation and bravery of people like  Paul and Jesus Christ and people make the mistake
of ascribing trust and integrity to VPW - wow what a man, we think. 

Pfal class- Build trust, credibility and integrity-
He talks about it so much that we associate trust, credibility and integrity to VPW

Intermediate Class -Demonstration of the "power of God" 
We see in action a "mighty man of God" like we have never seen before
Finally someome teaching us to "intrepret" toungues and "prophesy"- He hides behind "forth telling" because everyone is entitled to it
Fore telling- Only true prophets called by God can do it but forth telling- VPW can teach you- it doesnt matter if he is liar- you dont know 
about it (world's best kept secret) . Mrs VPW bag is a kid's lunchbox when compared to what's VPW's character like

Christian Family & Sex Class- Priming & Loosening up of Sex Boundaries

I reckon this is the whole aim of VPW in this class. It's priming women for his private sexual rights to any women -especially the young ones who
go through his "brainwashing and trust building classes" . I dont know if he charged for this class but I never got to take it
The ones targetted by VPW as we know are told that they are a very special calibre of women who can handle the task
of relieving "overburned and stressed " "man of God" by satisfying his sexual need
and people succumb to these lies because they have been trained to trust and obey along the lines of a top notch soldier 
It remind me of the movie called "true lies"

These type of brain washing and extending the boundaries doesnt happen overnight- it's over a period of time
and people dont even realise what's happening to them and how they are extending the boundaries to let the bear in.
TWI distances itself from other cults by saying and it's so common (again gain credibility by associating
with Godly people in the bible by saying - "Oh The pharisees and general public also called the band of 
people following Jesus Christ -a cult" 
So we are thinking to ourelves, Hmmm! That means TWI must be in the same boat as the disciples of Jesus Christ
This is a trap- where people dont even check TWI because they think that if they check TWI- they are going to get the
same reaction from the church groups or general poulation. Well VPW is a "greeaaat" minister of the Lord- how dare they?
Why should we let other people call us a cult when TWI is such a wonderful organization "teaching" people the word
Not realising that VPW is the most shameless wild pig there is - as someone once said an active resident  of sodom and gomorrah
would blush if he saw what goes on at TWI

This is why parents have a duty to love their children and nurture them with the word of God
so there is a protection around their children constantly. Even older people have been conned and this
is why whenever someone gives "religious class". The first thing to do is to check the "teacher" 
out and check the "organization out" thoroughly before serious harm is done
if only I had gone to the internet to do a bit of reearch on TWi and I might have found GSC and
it would have saved e years of heartache
VPW used to say people should pray and just trust God and dont worry (meaning dont check)
what the children have gotten to- dont worry God will take care of it
Yeah right (A godly responsible parent will both pray, trust God and check on their children whereabouts and
what they are doing)

Just because someone is teaching the bible doesnt necessarily mean they are good people
I cannot stress this enough- they need to be checked out thoroughly before one takes any type
class especially a religious class.

I wonder how many people quit after taking the pfal class or midway through the class and
never turned up. Smart move -I must congratulate them.
It would be interesting to get their feedback.

My advice to those who have been seriouly hurt by VPW is- God loves you very much
he reached out to me when I cried out to Him for truth in an amazing way
Spend time with God in prayer and communing with God and let God heal your heart
GSC is a great place also online for other people who have been similarly hurt to share
how they have overcome the hurt inflicted by TWI in the past and found closure

I have been hurt tremendously and it's going away and I can forget it becaues
God has something so beautiful for all of eternity for me- and I tell myself my TWI is a spit in bucket
It's gone forever

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I think you're getting warmer

Thanks for clarifying why you were hurling such huge sections for the the bible to back up your erroneous
thinking (no offence intentended- we all make mistakes and i have highlighted below why rules have
not changed in regards to 7th day sabbath keeping. Hopefully you will read through my whole reply to get
a clearer picture.

If you carefully examine the scriptures-and apply biblical principles of rightly dividing the word,
i.e to whom it was written , cultural context,why was it written (the context of the cahpter/verses-what it was addressing)
you may come to a correct understanding and realise the rules have not changed in regards to 7th day
Sabbath Keeping. I say may because it takes quite a lot t humble oneself, believe me I have been there-
I am not exalting myself neither may i downgrading you in any way- just saying sometimes our biases towards a 
particular subject can blind us and satan will take advantage of that

7th day sabbath keeping commandment by God will never change for all eternity- Sorry, if I am upsetting you
but this is what God has mandated right from day one in Genesis 2:2

Under the new covenant in Jesus Christ, particluar components like animal sacrifices and physical circumcision may change
but the 7th day sabbath commandment devoted to God is etched in stone, literallly (no pun intended)

So what has taken a different form
In the old covenant - there was animal sacrifices but Jesus Christ the Lamb of God was a once and for all
sacrifice. 

Heb 10:10-11

¹¹ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

¹² But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

So here we can see in the new covenant that Jesus Christ became the once and for all sacrifical lamb to replace all the animal sacrifices
for the sins of the people

Under the old covenant relationship, physical circumcision of males on attaing a certain age upwards was required but
the new covenant, physical circumcision (circumcision of the foreskin) was replaced with circumcision of the heart.

Romans 2:29

²⁹ But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the
   letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

So you can see there was a change in form of specific  elements in the new covenant  in Jesus Christ as compared to old convenant under Abraham

So what do you want to substitute the 7th day sabbath with?   With pagan sunday worship or???  which the rc church claims as it's own and clearly says is unbiblical or do you want any other day which God has not commanded

I am really surprised TBone that this statement by a noted rc theologian has not popped your eyes wide open.
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes.
Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes .
Did Christ change the day'? I answer no

Heb 13:8  

 

⁸ Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

and this verse is in the new testament. Jesus Christ is also the Lord of Sabbath.
If the rules have changed then he wouldnt be called the Lord of the Sabbath
It may be something along the lines of the "Lord of Sunday Keeping"
The bible is very clear and specific about the 7th sabbath and that it will never change and it is eternal

I dont about you but I certainly want to be part of the flock of Jesus Christ
John 10

 

²⁷ My sheep hear my voice (obey my commandments), and I know them, and they follow me:

²⁸ And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The 7th day abbath is also a seal betwween God and Man forever:

Exodus 31:13

¹³ Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, ( born again believers are spiritual Israel- (See Rom2:29 and Gatians 3:29)
    saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations;
    that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth  sanctify you. 

Exodus 31:16-17

¹⁶ Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

¹⁷ It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Also the vision that Peter had of creepy crawly things where God told him "Kill and eat" has got nothing to do with food
Why do i say that? Again as with your previous scripture verses you quoted to back up the insignificance of sabbath keeping
- read it in context as to what's happening. In romans - the culture at that time and who it was written to.
Here in Peter - whats's happening in Acts 10- God is wanting to get Peter' attention that with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ
-the jews and the gentiles have become one. God here is attempting to change Peter's mindset and his attitude about ministering
to the Gentiles

Galatians 3:

²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

²⁹ And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul is pretty much clued up and knows the score in regards to the significance of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ
and what the Lord has accomplished  but Peter is still of the old Jewish mindset that the Gentiles are unclean.
The vision came Peter as he was hungry and was praying while the food was being cooked. So what would have been the 
fastest way to get Peter's attention in relation to going into the house of a Gentile to minister to them- of course food.

So strong was Peter's bias against ministering to the Gentiles that God had to repeat the vision 3 times

Acts 10: 11-15

¹¹ And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

¹² Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

¹³ And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

¹⁴ But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

¹⁵ And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

However the food here is not the actual food but referring to the gentiles and the way Peter viewed them. The Jews culturally
viewed the Gentiles to be as "dogs" unclean and this is what God wanted to show Peter that now post death and resurrection
of Jesus Christ, the gentiles have been accepted into the household of God when they accept Jesus Chris as  Lord and Saviour

Peter was still wondering what the vision was all about and what is the relevance but he obeyed God to go to the house of
Cornelius:
Acts 10:17

¹⁷ Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

It was only after Peter went  to the house of Cornelius that he undertood
Acts 10:34

³⁴ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Do you think after this vision, the rules changed and Peter would love to eat bats? Bring it on corona virus- people go against God's commandments of clean and unclean meat and the whole world gets a hiding

So again T-Bone, like your verse in romans and Peter' vision ihas nothing to do with clean and unclean food per se and the rules have not changed and certainly doesnt diminish the importance of the 7th day Sabbath keeping relationship and  4th commandment of God
and Colossians was written to Gentiles to encourage them to observe the sabbath (opposite of what you are thinking)

So how can you possibly say the rules have changed. It may have for you but not for God
and I prefer to listen to God.

Why dont you re examine the scriptures in light of what I have shared with you and pray with all your heart
for understanding the truth about 7th day sabbath keeping?

Regards

Waxit

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

Are you saying -this is an example where the rules have changed - that just like the 7th day sabbath has changed to the Ist day of the week (which is absolutely Not True)
that Peter's vision shows us that the Levicticus commandments of clean and unclean meats, Now man is allowed eat anything.
(Yeah right!  Are you enjoying Corona Virus- It's not a joke is it?)
So are you saying that Peter's vision as shown in the scriptures now means that the new rules now come into play?

 

 

 

41 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

God’s jurisdiction is also expressed in written form by agents such as Paul – for brevity’s sake I will not re-post the chapters on Romans and Colossians which express the new rules regarding foods, holy days and the Sabbath – basically saying these are unimportant in light of the accomplishments of Christ.

Hi T-Bone
No problems and no hard feelings.
The rules have never changed if that's what you are saying and it never will eternally
The 7th day sabbath is God's commandment and will never change.

Jesus Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath said "I am the same, yesterday and forever"
Healing on the sabbath does not in any way denote changes to 7th day sabbath keeping.
The jews were always looking for ways to accuse Jesus Christ- the one thing they would have jumped on and legitmately so was if he was not keeping his
own mandated 7th day sabbath
God's supreme authority is always in line with His word. He will never contradiact His sabbath commandment in Exodus 20

Paul or the angels will never bring a different message
Galatians 1:

G
⁸ But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

How can PPaul preach something other than what he Himself was keeping- 7th day sabbath?

I have given you a lot of info from the bible his including hitorical records on how sunday keeping (1st day) is actually
man made and unbiblical (Man does not have the authority to change God's commandments)

In the end, you have to decide -everyone is responsible before God for the decisions
they make especially when the word of God is right in front of them.

What would you say to the historical fact that the early christians who were taught directly
by the apostles and including Paul never kept sunday as the sabbath day 
but instead kept the 7th day saturday?
Do we know more than them and do something different than what God has commanded?
 

Regards
Waxit

 

20 hours ago, Twinky said:

Do you say also that Adam and Eve had a sabbath day which fell on a Saturday?  Are you really sure, like really really sure, about the actual day the world was finished being created, and upon which God rested?  

Yes! Adam and Eve had a sabbath day which fell on the 7th day which is our present Saturday today.  I am sure they were not only keeping the sabbath
but also observing it  on the 7th day (our saturday) and i will tell you why

The first time Sabbath rest devoted to God was mentioned was in Genesis 2:2-3

² And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

³ And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Does God need to rest like the rest of us (no pun intended) . He rested as an example for mankind (Mark 27-28 Sabbath was created for man)
Surely God wont create something for no reason. He specifically created this special day for us -hallowed it and sanctified it 
for us to devote it to Him (worship) as we rest from our labours, enjoy fellowship and do a teaching etc
I guess you could say in a sense that Adam & Eve were the first church
Adam & Eve were the first man and woman of mankind so obviously sabbath being created for mankind, applied to them and they were observing it, being in perfect harmony with God until they sinned. They knew not sin until the day they sinned (disobeyed one of God's other commandment not to eat from the tree of good and evil. The moment they did that, they found themselves naked
Gen 2:7

⁷ And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Had they not kept the sabbath which was created for them then that would have definitely been mentioned
Note 1 John 3:

⁴ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

As long as Adam & Eve did not break God's commandments or laws- it was sweet - happy days
but the first time they broke it- bang it's lights out- so in this case, it was eating the forbidden fruit
which means they would have been keeping the sabbath. God never pulled them up for not keeping the sabbath
The next time sabbath is specifically mentioned in the bible is in Exodus 20:8-10

⁸ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

⁹ Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

¹⁰ But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God.......

So how can God expect someone to "remember to keep the sabbath" in Ex 20:8, if it was not already being practised
So how come the children of Israel were already keeping the 7th day sabbath before being given the written law
Because the 7th day sabbath commandment was passed down from generation to generation.
From Adam & Eve -down to Noah (A preacher of righteousness)  down to Abraham (One who obeyed God) down to Moses (Giver of the law)
- to children of Israel where it became a written law in the form of stone tablets in Exodus 31:18

Explanation of why the 7th day of the week is our present saturday

The seven day weekly cycle was established by God in Gen 2:1-2 and is not obscured and is not tied to  patterns
or alignment of stars, sun or moon. It is a continous serial counting of days one after another from the time God set it
in motion -1st day of the week to 7th day of the week and it is unbroken till our present day.
The fact that the days of the week have pagan names doesnt alter the sequence from 1st day- Sunday to 7th day Saturday

The only calendar that people had from the time God set the weekly pattern was day 1 to day 7until the babylonians
So the babylonians -the earliest civilization adopted this weekly cycle that people were used to  this- initially it was day 1 to day 7 weekly cycle -
which was  was started by God to this present date.
Later on the Bablonians began to number the months -1st month, 2 month,3 month  to 12th and according to one complete solar cycle
(365 days) according to the rotation of the earth around the sun- 12 months. I dont know what names they would have given to specific days 
but you can see even in the bible Nisan was the first month and it is the babylonian equivalent of what God called Abib

Ezra the priest during the time of the jews in captivity in Babylon saw no need to change the jewish calendar and
adopted the Babylonian calendar -All through this time- the 7th day sabbath is being kept

From 46 bc upto 1582 ad- The western world adopted the Julian Calendar- This is when we got the eqivalent names of the days and months
Sun day being 1st day (very important in the roman culture- sun worsip) through to Saturday (names after saturn)
Saturday was Named after the Roman god and planet Saturn, Saturday is the only day of the week that retained its Roman origin in English
Julian calendar was an improvement only on account of the fact  in that it kept the months in sync with the season.
The weekly cycle was still the same- 1st day to 7th day still the same

In 1582 ad- the old Julian calendar which was 10 days out of sync with the solar system
was replaced by the Gregorian calendar . which is what we have today,  The Gregorian calendar
removed the 10 days which was out of sync- so the chop was made on Thursday Oct 4, 1582 

so the next day which was supposed to be Friday, Oct 5th 1582 became Friday, Oct 15th, 1582
so the weekly cycle was still the same from the time God started it to the present day- 1st day -Sunday to 7th day Saturday

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 

Where is the Bible Chapter and verse for that?

Hello! my friend-  no offence to you but If i told you, I am a human being - would you ask me for bible chapter and verse
It' a historical fact- you cannot run away from the fact that i was born  and the document to prove is imy birth certificate
not the bible
So if you start researching you will find out the origins of sunday keeping from official records and that it was never possible for the early christians
to even consider sunday service because it was unheard of. Sunday keeping is not biblical as I may have told you in my earlier reply

The changing of the 7th day sabbath (Saturday) happened after the book of revelation when the early christians were
long gone on so you wont find anything explicly stating that the 7th day sabbath was changed from 7th day to the 1st day
This is why i't maybe a good idea to read "Romes Challenge to the Protestants" . It's not heavy reading.

Quote from Wikipedia:
On March 7, 321, however, Roman Emperor Constantine I issued a civil decree making Sunday
a day of rest from labor, stating: All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun.
(How's that for idolatry)

 

Prior to this there is no record of sunday keeping, only the 7th day sabbath as commanded by God

So sunday keeping came into force 321 years after the death of Jesus Christ- of course right from the time of the birth
of Jesus Christ- sabbath was being observed

Sunday keeping is an rc man made tradition started by the rc
and they clearly acknowledges it as their church tradition 

Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."

"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."

 

 

17 hours ago, T-Bone said:

hmmmm..."out of context" ?!?!       out of context means without the surrounding words or circumstances and so not fully understandable.

 

Waxit , you said "You quoted 2 scriptures in Romans and Colossians and both were taken out of context in regards to sabbath keeping"...    You must be referring to the context of your viewpoint....I could quote the entire books of Romans and Colossians for an even bigger picture of the context - and my comment saying that they show we don't have to follow the command to keep the Sabbath, will still stand.  Quit talking through your hat and make sense, please.

And what if I claimed the same thing that you do  - that after studying the Bible and praying for understanding, God showed me the freedom I have in Christ -  that I am not commanded to keep the Sabbath. Uh oh, God is telling me something different than he told you. God is giving contradictory answers to two different people.

 

 I told you in my earlier reply- that i wanted to end the conversation with you because we are getting nowhere
Why do you insist in keep talking to me if you think i am a liar.?

I am sorry about Mars Hill- I may have gone overboard on that. But I would like to stress on meekness and humility
to the word of God rather than relying solely on our intellectual and reasoning "powers" which is a speck of dust compared to God
So I do recommend going to God Himself after we have meditated and understood HIs word
to see if we are on the right track. We need God's Holy Spirit to guide and God will, if we show meekness and humility
to Him.

Psalm 25:9
 

⁹ The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

¹⁰ All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies (includes the 7th day sabbath)

I can definitely say that if God commanded you to not keep the sabbath then without a doubt you must be talking to satan
How do i know this?  God will never contradict His word Ex 20:8-11 - Read it line by line and meditate on it and you will figure out if it is satan you are talking to
How did I know that God was showing me the truth of His word. Because it was never in contradiction of His word

You dont have to throw the whole of Romans or the whole of Colossians or the whole bible and show everybody how much you know
and  confuse  everybody 
Just one or 2 verses at a time - It must be relating to the keeping of the the sabbath or it's insignificance
-you are welcome to explain the verse but no what this person or that person said or any technical jargon
no conjectures or assumptions but historical facts-yes, no problem. I am doing so not to control but so that the focus will be on sabbath- important or insignificant
BTW your 2 verses that you gave are out of context in so far as sabbath is concerned and the verse in Colossians is opposite
to what you are saying and Paul is encouraging the colossians not to take notice of people who are judging them for keeping the sabbath

Just for your information (food for thought). This is what  Cardinal Gibbons an intellectual  authority in the rc church
who is gung ho like you to ignore the importance of 7th day sabbath, plainly stated.
Go figure
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!

"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"

Regards
Waxit

 

12 hours ago, Twinky said:

400 years?  Jews have apparently been counting for over 5500 years.  In fact, today: 

14 April 2020 / Gregorian calendar

 

 

You are right when you say Jews have been counting from a long time ago (They have always kept the 7th day sabbath)
But he 400 years count for the non existence of sunday worship that i am referring is the period  starting from the time of
the disciples of Jesus Christ through to the early christians (of which we are a part of-new testament christians) and down
There is no historical record during this 400 year period anywhere where there was a sunday
weekly service being kept among christians. Hmmm! I wonder why?

Because (1st day) sunday weekly assembly of christians is not biblical 
It's a man made tradition started by the rc church :

Romes Challenge to the Protestants:
"The Roman Catholic Church itself without any Scriptural authority from God transferred
Christian worship from the Biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, by the command
of the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine in 325 AD  (325 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ)"

Below is a quote and admission from the representative of the rc papacy in the US:
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes.
 Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes .
Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!

"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"

Satan wants people to diownplay the importance of the 7th day sabbath
so we go against the  4th commandment of God Ex 20:10-11
The rest of the10  commandments are clear cut that most people understand-no 2 ways about it  -dont lie, dont steal etc
but the 7th day sabbath keeping- this one he can play with if he can downgrade it's significance
Remember Satan talking to Eve about the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -
Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Adam and Eve swallowed it and the rest was history
                                                                                                                                            

 

 

12 hours ago, Twinky said:

It is also a known historical fact that beginning from the time of the disciples of Jesus Christ through to His resurrection
through to the early christians and after- For over 400 yearsThe 7th day (saturday) sabbath was always observed  as the day for sabbath keeping, there was no such thing as a sunday service or sabbath

 

Dear T-Bone
I just want to let you know I had no intention of controlling anything 
Just keeping the conversation focussed on scripture instead of going all over the place
I wanted to be sincere with you about my experience and the honest truth and you dont have to buy anything
because I am not selling anything
The reason i shared with you is, so you can see the benefit that when there is direct honest communication with God
and when God is personally involved in our bible study, it's makes a huge difference
But if you think it's all a scam and I am a con then so be it. I will let God be the judge. I cannot change what you think about me-
and you can say whatever you want. So it looks like from a nice guy, you are now turning into the green incredible hulk
Hopefully, you will come back to normal bill because i am ending this conversation
Only God knows my heart and I dont have any more time for this sort of carry on. 

You quoted 2 scriptures in Romans and Colossians and both were taken out of
context in regards to sabbath keeping and you didnt have any answer to that
but instead you get upset because I am not interested in technical analysis

I know this is going nowhere and it's completely pointless discussing any further
You think I am playing a game- To be honest, I have better things that I can do with my time
and it is quite evident- you have spat the dummy

So as of now, I would like to stop all conversations with you in regards to the thread, I started

May God bless you with love and peace
Waxit

 

On 4/5/2020 at 11:26 PM, Twinky said:

If you're going to get really precise, you have to count the 7th day from the original first "day of rest."  Don't envy you that task.

It's quite easy actually

The seven day weekly cycle was established by God in Gen 2:1-2 and is not obscured and is not tied to any patterns
or alignment of stars, sun or moon. It is a continous serial counting of days one after another from the time God set it
in motion -1st day of the week to 7th day of the week and it is unbroken till our present day.
The fact that the days of the week have pagan names doesnt alter the sequence from 1st day- Sunday to 7th day Saturday

Ezra the priest during the time of the jews in captivity in Babylon saw no need to change the jewish calendar and
adopted the Babylonian calendar -
The names of the month were numbered initially and latest Bablonian names like Nisan- 1st Month were used
All during this time the weekly cycle never changed- Sunday (named after the sun) was the first day of week and Saturday
(named after saturn) was 7th day of the week. The Jews wherever they went including Jesus Christ who should know
as he was responsible for the creation of days in Genesis
were always careful to observe the 7th day for sabbath keeping as God commanded

From 46 bc upto 1582 ad- The western world adopted the Julian Calendar- Nothing changed materially  The
Julian calendar was an improvement only on account of the fact  in that it kept the months in sync with the season.
The weekly cycle was still the same- 1st day to 7th day still the same

In 1582 ad- the old Julian calendar which was 10 days out of sync with the solar system
was replaced by the Gregorian calendar . which is what we have today,  The Gregorian calendar
removed the 10 days which was out of sync- so the chop was made on Thursday Oct 4, 1582 
so the next day which was supposed to be Friday, Oct 5th 1582 became Friday, Oct 15th, 1582
so the weekly cycle was still the same now to the present day- 1st day -Sunday to 7th day Saturday

Regards
Waxit

 

On 4/13/2020 at 1:34 AM, T-Bone said:

…We see no reason for refusing to assume that the distinction here touched upon refers to the Jewish Sabbath. What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem, still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost. This does not imply that they insisted on this day or on any legal observance but only that they closed their shop or their store, ceased work, and kept the day holy. We see that Paul mentions this adiaphoristic practice only incidentally, only as an addition to the question regarding food. From this it is safe to conclude that only very few followed this practice and that they did it quietly and caused no friction whatever. Yet it lay on the same level as the question regarding food.

Hi T-Bone
This thread on the sabbath is going to be a long drawn out discussion. 
|I am not interested in long  theological debates about technical biblical analysis. It's tiring just to read through 
I have brought up the quotes you made to point out some things- in future we will stick to chapter and verse
So can i just ask you if you wish to discuss this just to limit it :
scripture verses that i quoted or  bible verses you want to bring up (I am not interested in any highly technical analysis)
 

9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

 

I have learnt from my mistakes about relying on what this person said or that person said or what Lenski said- based on my experiences with twi  and vw"s
manipulative tactics  to shape my thinking and the sex pevert succeeded because I was stupid enough to allow him and not check him out
We are to study diligently and then go to  God in prayer to reveal the truth .
If we are  humble and meek enough to admit that
we need God to open our eyes beyond our natural understanding using our brain

Matt 13:10-13
 

¹⁰ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

¹¹ He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

¹² For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

¹³ Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Why were the pharisees and the rest not being plainly shown the truth? because they thought they knew it all-were puffed up and really
were not interested in seeking God for the answers and will only continue to argue
Why were the apostles being given spiritual understanding?
The apostles humbled themselves to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Peter said. to the Lord "To whom shall we go- you have 
the words of Life. All things that pertain to life and godliness is in the bible. We must go to the word of God and pray to God himself
to see if we are on the right track
Paul was a highly educated man who humbled himself to the Lord Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus
After 3 days, he received sight physically and spiritually
 

If you remember I asked you for a bible verse that shows the insignificance of the sabbath and
you started out with a detailed explanation of what someone else and added your explanation before finally giving me the bible verse

A diligent and prayerful study of the word of God (bible? -yes but no I wont trust any "intellectuals" or any lenski who are superior in knowledge 
The only source I can trust is God Himself. I know this from personal experience.
When I got of TWI- I prayed and cried out to God to show me the truth- having come out of the trinitarian background into the non trinitarian TWI
The Lord systematically took out from false doctrine to where I am now in faithfully keeping the 7th day sabbath.
and the bible verses started leaping out in a spiritual sense when i read them

I dont really care about 2/4 crucified or 3/6 denials. I believe there are 4 crucified
and Peter denied thrice exactly as Jesus said but if i can be proven otherwise, I dont really care
However  the 7th day sabbath is a major commandment so significant but it 
has been downgraded into insignificance by satan and his army of intellectuals.

Remember Mars Hill- these were intellectuals who specialised in knowledge gathering
or something interesting, while Moses went directly to the source -God and
Moses was considered the meekest person by God and had a great relationship with God

I may not be a technical bible analyst like you are and you may question my
analytical skills but I know without a doubt that God led me to where I am because I
cried out to him and He answered me

The danger of being highly spohisticated and technical:

2 Timothy 3:7

⁷ Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ok! Your quote about someone else's brilliant analysis:
What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that
a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem,
still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost

This above statement is faulty in that it is pure conjecture on the part of the person making this statement and a classic example of 
someone making a statement on something that he is assuming and wants everyone else to assume
because it backs up the point he wants you to believe
Why would Paul be addressing the few jewish christians iand ignore  the largely gentile christians
population in Romans? 

Romans 14:1-5

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

² For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

³ Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

⁴ Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

⁵ One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

The book of Romans was written by Paul from Corinth to the christians converts in Rome  (largely gentile)
The subject here is focussing on food and what particular days they ate the food. The gentile converts were the ones who were weak in faith
having come out of entirely different pagan background and the christian biblical practices was entirely new to them. They were used to their old religious customs
For instance during the season of lent, courtesy of the pagan rc chucrch, they choose not to eat meat on fridays
Also one can tell  Paul in this instance is not talking to the christian jews minority because in vs 2- he is saying for one believeth that he may eat
all things. Tell me which religious jew anywhere will agree to eat pork
So to use Romans 14:1-5 and say- Paul is saying it doesnt really matter which day of the week one regards as the sabbath is not correct
because Romans 14:1-5 is not talking about the sabbath. Paul is talking about food eaten on particular days that gentile christians were accustomed to

Your quote:
…Paul says nothing more on the question regarding days. Already in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the Christian Era the apostles selected Sunday as a day of worship. Saturday was gradually dropped. There was never a legislation regarding the whole matter. All was done in Christian liberty with an eye to the Lord. Some Jewish Christians, who felt attached to Saturday, showed that attachment for years; Rome, it seems, still had a few of these. In this spirit of liberty we still observe Sunday, not as being commanded, but as serving our need for regular public worship. Legalistic ideas are still projected into Sunday; the worst feature about them is not that they center upon Sunday but that they are legalistic evidence of a spirit that is totally foreign to Christ, to the apostles, and to the Christian Church.”

My answer: Jesus Christ said, "I am the same yesterday, today and forever- (Heb 13:8)
Keeping the 7th day sabbath is not legalism- it is obeying the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments
Acts 4:19 ¹⁹ But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
7th day Sabbath is ordained by God  whereas Sunday keeping is the tradition of Man (Rome' Challenge To The Protestants)

The above statement that the apostles selected sunday as a day of collective worship cannot be true
It is also a known historical fact that beginning from the time of the disciples of Jesus Christ through to His resurrection
through to the early christians and after- For over 400 yearsThe 7th day (saturday) sabbath was always observed  as the day for sabbath keeping, there was no such thing as a sunday service or sabbath
So how can early christians relax the rule and gradually ease into sunday keeping when there was no such historical recorrds

Your quote:

Paul said as much in another epistle:

 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…Colossians 2: 16…Paul did NOT advise folks to forsake or follow such customs – but rather reminded folks of their unimportance.

The above verse is Colossians 2:16

Again lust like Romans 14, it is out of context here you fail to take into account to whom it is written.
 Paul here is addressing the Colossians who are gentile converts.
So if you correctly take this into account about whom it was written (i.e gentiles) then it is incorrect 
of what you are postulating that Paul is remindingthe folks of the unimportance of the sabbath.
That is absolutely not true. 
In this case since it is the colossians (i.e gentile converts) that Paul is addressing, you will know that after having 
becoming a christian, a gentile who is used to pagan practices and non observance of the sabbath, having his own pagan 
worship previously now finds himself observing the sabbath on the 7th day.
So obviously these gentile christians will be given a tough time by friends and families who are unconverted and will be subject
of being mocked and ridiculed by pagans for keeping the 7th day sabbath from sunset to sunset. 

This is why Paul is telling the Colossians not to take notice of people who are judging you on account of
your biblical practice of keeping sabbath days (weekly and annual) observance among other things
 

 

33 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I’d prefer to have an open dialogue on this thread...so you can just make your points here.

I have not read the Rome’s challenge yet.

Yes - during my 12 year stint with TWI - I did take (and also help run) the PFAL class numerous times including the live PFAL ‘77 class...and yes I disagree on the claim that there were four crucified with Christ - I thought I was very clear on that in my previous posts. Feel free to post your evidence supporting the 4 crucified theory on this thread also.

I dont mind having a look at your thread  of 2 or 4 crucified on gsc open forum- let me know the title of this particular thread
but the sabbath thread- I will have to pm then it's up to you what you think and if
you have any questions- you can ask by PM
Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestantants then you it will give you a fresh
perspective on 7th day sabbath when I PM you