Waxit

I do not want the opinion of anyone else because I frequently get misunderstood
I prefer to dialogue one on one 
 

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Having slept on it – as they say, I was a little hasty in concluding my post and think there’s some unfinished business…I would like to hear your side of an issue –

What is the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ ?

BTW how can I PM you?

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Having slept on it – as they say, I was a little hasty in concluding my post and think there’s some unfinished business…I would like to hear your side of an issue –

What is the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ ?

Can I PM you? There are a couple of things I would like to point out with your line 
of thinking in regards to the sabbath that probably will make you sit up and think

Besides that a couple of questions:
Have you read "Romes Challenge to the Protestants">  These are historical facts well worth reading 
You did take the pfal class didnt you? Do you disagree that there were 4 crucified with Christ?

On 4/11/2020 at 7:06 PM, Twinky said:

Okay, no answer then.  Not interested in lengthy essays by other people; you have a voice.  Use your own words.  Be succinct, if you care to respond.

Over and out.  Bye.

Hi Twinky
I will pm you and we can continue our conversation there

Cheers
Waxit

On 4/9/2020 at 8:43 PM, T-Bone said:

I won’t attempt to answer your question, Mark – but I did look into the book Waxit referred to in his reply to Twinky – “If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.”

If this is the same book – I found it God's Plan for Mankind  

and you can read the chapters online for free – like these articles on the Sabbath:

Sabbath the Sign of God

the importance of the Sabbath

 

here is a portion from the above "The Importance of the Sabbath":

“Now let’s go to Hebrews 4, and let’s understand something concerning the Old Testament. We’re going to make this just a little bit different today. We’re going to answer some of the questions that some of the difficulties people are bringing up are related in some of the things that we cover here. Hebrews 4:4, now we’re going to come back to Hebrews 4 and look at it a little later because we are going to see that one of the major teachings of Jesus Christ did in fact, have to do with the Sabbath day and with your capacity to work and with your capacity to eat and drink, verse 2, Hebrews 4: “For truly, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also did…” Who is he talking about? The children of Israel. So they had the gospel preached unto them in the form that God gave that to them. “…but the preaching of the word did not profit them because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard.” So they had the gospel preached to them as well. What is this telling us? This is telling us that the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament, does it not? Yes, indeed it surely, surely does.”

 

Maybe it’s just me – but after reading both articles on the Sabbath, with the lack of comprehensiveness and thoroughness neither article impresses me as being an in-depth study of the Bible – but I guess that’s a matter of opinion depending on one’s idea of what is in-depth. I think the author (Fred Coulter) is selective in his references (cherry picking) , and ignores any passages that do not agree with his viewpoint – as you (Mark ) pointed out by Waxit's lack or little use of referencing the writings of the Apostle Paul…Another thing I find confusing and a misrepresentation is how the author defines “the gospel” – saying  “the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament,”…well, I don’t want to derail this thread – but in Christianity the term “the gospel” or  "good news" usually refers to the story of Jesus Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection.

 

Please excuse my post if I have been mistaken in the book Waxit was referring to.

No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind.
To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says
Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming
evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that
so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important
but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him
I think it's a bit unfair for you T-Bone to say I am selective 
I dont understand why you are saying I am being selective because I present both old and new testament verses
Incidentally what Fred means when he says the gospels include both old and new testament
I think wha he meant was- that in the new testament there are references to the old testament-
For instance- ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy.........?  Also during the time of Jesus- they only had
the old testament as reference points- scrolls etc

Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only  verses that show sabbath keeping ,
Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important
and should be ignored?



 

19 hours ago, Twinky said:

Okay, no answer then.  Not interested in lengthy essays by other people; you have a voice.  Use your own words.  Be succinct, if you care to respond.

Over and out.  Bye.

Dear Twinky
Sure- I would be happy to answer your question as per your request
I wanted to give some thought so I can present it to you as succinctly as possible
so please understand I am not ignoring you as i need some time

Can I PM you as Waysider suggested?

Regards
Waxit

1 hour ago, Twinky said:

@ Waxit.  

I asked you this question (among others) and await your response.

It appears to me that you are missing the point, in a big way.

Mt 23:23
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

 

I think you're busy focussing on the "letter of the law" and forgetting the more important matters: justice, mercy and faithfulness (so Jesus says).  But those are, in fact, the details of life that I focus on.

May I have your answer, please, to the question I put to you on 8 April?

Hi Twinky
I will definitely answer your question.
Correct me if I am wrong?- you are saying I am "majoring in the minor things and minoring in the major things"
in the mould of the pharisees?  Nothing is further from the truth
I am perfectly aware of the weightier things of the law- like mercy, justice,faithfullness and love which is really important.
You will notice that in Matt 23:23- In context it is not referring in any part in the whole of Matt 23 in regards to the sabbath
The Lord covered many things about the pride and the "holier than thou attitude and hypocrisy of the pharisees but there is
no reference to the keeping of the sabbath.
Never once has the Lord rebuked the pharisees for keeping the sabbath. He was righteously angry with the pharisees because
they wanted to accuse Jesus for healing on the sabbath and so he confronted them on "their letter of the law" attitude and lack of
love and mercy for the man with the withered man. I have said time and again God wants us to keep the 7th day sabbath with the right
heart and attitude so healing, love, mercy and all these things we must have 24/7
The keeping of the sabbath was never any issue with the Lord or the pharisees- only how it was kept where the pharisees showed their
true colours of hatred for Jesus Christ, lack of love, selfishness, pride and this is what Jesus Christ was confronting them on
I fully agree with you that love, mercy, justice, faithfullness is the very heart of God and that's something we must major in

But the verse that you quoted
in Matt 23:23 has got nothing to do with the keeping of the sabbath as explained above and it would be unfair to apply it to me

Ok! why is 7th day sabbath keeping so important in the plan of God for mankind's salvation?? 
It's a lengthy explanation and deserves a lot of thought and I dont think I can explain it in a few lines here on GSC

Also please dont have the mindset that keeping of sabbath is going to be burdensome -Refer  to 1 John 5:3
What God says is always the truth. Would you agree with that?
Sabbath keeping is enjoyable a time dedicated to spending focussed time with God and rest
free of distractions and outside influences

Would you like to read "God's plan for mankind?  It offers a more detailed explanation in answer to your question
and thoroughly researched from the word of God written by a christian minister who is now 80 yrs of age.

Dont read it all at one go- it will be too much- a little bit at a time- think about it and then continue and please pray
that God will give you spiritual insight as it will all click spiritually if you truly seek to find out why it's important to God
 Only God can bring light in the way he can and give you the understanding that he would like for you to have.
That's what happened to me. John 8:32
Love, Mercy, Faithfullness falls within the framework of the 7th day Sabbath and God's Holy Days
God's plan for the salvation of mankind

Much love in Christ
Waxit


 

On 4/10/2020 at 4:03 PM, Twinky said:

I think I'm done with this conversation.  There is no need to be insulting just because someone presents a different and well-thought-out view.

You get offended too easily and I honestly didnt mean to be insulting. I share a lot of information and it takes up a lot of time
to go through the maze of information i present
I know people will not agree with me on everything and I share the truth knowing that people will have their own opinions.
But i share them anyway regardless because God said hold forth the truth- 
God said i dont hold you responsible for how people will react but only that you reach out to people in love
I speak the truth in love and sometimes I get misunderstood (Satan will ensure that happens so they walk away from the truth)
I am hoping people will see the significance of the 7th day sabbath in the plan of salvation and God will give them even greater
revelations of the word of God

But if you want to stop the conversation and coming to grips with the 7th day sababth and why it is so important
because you think that I am insulting, I apologise for that because that was never my intention. I brought about a point
so you can see that you might be on the wrong track and it runs contrary to what God wants.

I respect your wishes and if you have any questions that you think I might have a point dont let this misunderstanding
stop you from asking questions or discussing further-  Also note there is a chance that I might have misunderstood you
no hard feelings

 

19 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Waxit has primarily quoted from the Old Testament, while ignoring much of the New Testament. Does Waxit ever read from the writings of the apostle Paul? Paul was the teacher who wrote the most books of New Testament writings. Luke, the gentile physician, worked with and learned from Paul and perhaps wrote the most words content of the New Testament. In perhaps large part this was due to Luke's Gentile background, while knowing the Greek language well. Koine Greek was the number one most shared language of the world in the first century. The only verses from the New Testament that Waxit quotes from is only in part, while adding his mindset., for example his partial quote from John 14:15, while not reading the answer of the question presented to Jesus regarding "the great commendment in the law". 

 

If you follow my bible verse quotes in it's entirety Mark- you will see I heavily quote from the new testament
The mind set that sabbath is for the ole testament is what I believe is making you think I am just quoting from
the old testament. The whole word of God must be taken into account.
The new testament is hidden in the old testament and the old testament is revealed in the new testament

23 hours ago, Twinky said:

Ah, no, we aren't the "spiritual seed" if we obey as you state.  What's your chapter and verse on your proposition?

And don't forget, Abraham was born and died waaaay before Moses was even a twinkle in his dad's eye, never mind the time when he was given the ten commandments.  Abraham is "pre-law" or "patriarchal" (for those who are into "dispensations").  Therefore, you can't say that Abraham "obeyed the law" as it was later written down.  Obeyed different (unwritten) laws, maybe.  We can't know what, with precision.

Ah, no, we aren't the "spiritual seed" if we obey as you state.  What's your chapter and verse on your proposition?
The below verse was staring at you and I dont know why you didnt pick it up
Galatians 3:29

²⁹ And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Tell me as gentiles can we be Abraham's physical seed. No obviously so what kind of a seed is it talking about 
in Galatians 3:29??? Obviously spiritual seed.

What I am discussing, you already know- I am just going through the steps so you can see the connection 
between obedience as a result of believing faith and being a spiritual seed of Abraham

Are you in Christ? - If you are (you must check with the word of God if you really are) and if you are then you are the spiritual seed of Abraham?
How are you in Christ?  Is it  a matter of being born into the christ lineage physically Of course not
God the Father begat as sons and daughters spiritually through Jesus Christ resurresction
when we confessed and obeyed
Part 1- Confession and Acceptance
Rom 10: 9 & 10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

What does it mean to confess and accept Jesus Christ as Lord?
In this case you give unreserved and total obedience to the Lordship of Jesus Christ
and obey His commandments and his teachings.  Jesus Christ is also Lord of the Sabbath

The pharisees were physical seed of Abraham but they are not the spiritual seed because
Why?? Because they did not obey all the commandments of God -sinned and in reality were the servants
of satan and preferred to 
strictly enforce their own" traditions of the elders" which is man made-
Keeping sabbath on sunday (1st day of 
the week is also man made- started by the rc church  which God never commanded. 
Do not confuse me and the people who obey the commandment of sabbath keeping with legalistic
pharasaical jews who have a ridiculous amount of rubbish "traditions from the elders -they are whited sepulchres
look good on the outside and rotten on the inside
The modern day orthodox jews even go to the extent of staying close to their synagogues
so its within walking distance and they dont need to use their cars on sabbath
You said that by keeping the sabbath, you wont be able to go for a drive. Who said that?
Tell me, would you consider pressing the gas pedal of your car to be hard laborious work?
So why couldnt you go for a restful drive . How do you think the sabbath keepers today (spiritual seed of Abraham)
go to their church building.  We dont walk for 10 miles, we drive there

Secondly what's the go with - if you havent work 6 full days then you cannot keep the sabbath properly
I dont know how you worked that out.
So if that's the case, you mean to say old widows and disabled people will not be able to keep the sabbath???
Your logic whatever it is, doesn't make sense does it?
Exodus 20:8-10

⁸ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

⁹ Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

¹⁰ But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God

Where does it say in the above sabbath verses, that you have to work 6 full days
Before you can properly keep the 7th day as a sabbath

What God is saying is if it is understood properly is:
You have 6 whole days to do whatever work you want to do or need to do
Reserve the 7th day for me as a sabbath for resting and collective worship,teaching
and fellowship and as you correctly pointed out that sabbath is from sunset (evening)
to the next sunset (next evening)

Part 2  - Fullfilling God's greatest commandment by loving God with all your heart and being in Christ
               (spiritual seed of Abraham) requires obedience

1 John 5:

³ For this is the love of God, that we keep ( The greek word here for keep is Teromen translates
 to "actively performing meaning obeying to do)
  his commandments (including the sabbath): and his commandments(including the sabbath) 
  are not grievous (example allowed to go for a leisurely drive)

When we are in Christ, it is a spiritual thing- it's spirit based 
John 6:63
 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

and we activatate this relationship of being in Christ and so being the spiritual seed of Abraham
by being obedient to Jesus Christ and God's commandments because we love God, and we delight in Christ.
How are we going to be in Christ if  we do not know him and how are we going to know him if we don't keep His commandments

1 John 2:4
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,
we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

² And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

³ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep (obey) his commandments.

Notice the difference below of just giving lip service and being truly in Christ as our Lord
obedience is required

Luke 6

⁴⁶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say (by implication what he stands for)

In essence Jesus is pointing out that it is pointless calling Him Lord if they are not willing to keep
God's commandments.  Jesus Christ said, He and the Father are one and whatever tells him He does.
So don't you think by implication Jesus Christ as the Son of God would have commanded the 10 commandments
He goes way beyond the 10 commandments by bringing in the beautitudes to live our lives by

Twinky, it looks like you do selective reading. Maybe you are very tired and dont have the time or energy to see how it 
all fits together. Some of the thigs learnt in the p-falafel class (even if most of the material was plargiarised by some clown psing as Doctor of Theology)
some of them are good biblical principles. Precept up precept , line upon line to see how it all fits together and see the whole picture
So don't do a microscopic witch hunt to shoot me down but instead if you follow the sequence as shown in the bible, you will
see how the keeping of the sabbath along with the rest of the commandments fits in with God's plan of salvation
The problem with most christians is that they miss out on God's plan for salvation by ignoring a very important
commandment of God (7th day sabbath)

Your quote:
And don't forget, Abraham was born and died waaaay before Moses was even a twinkle in his dad's eye, never mind the time when he was given the ten commandments.  Abraham is "pre-law" or "patriarchal" (for those who are into "dispensations").  Therefore, you can't say that Abraham "obeyed the law" as it was later written down.  Obeyed different (unwritten) laws, maybe.  We can't know what, with precision

In regards to pre law, pre mosaic, whatever you may want to call it- dispensations old vw stuff
which he mesmerised us with- we must be careful to get good valid stuff out of that stinks -vw used
fancy terminology like dispensation to  build up to what he wants you and me to believe. Let's not go down that track
Obedience doesnt have to be just a written command, if it can be proven. The word of God is also written in the stars
Every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God whether it is spoken or written is a law or commandment
(when it says do this or don't do this)
Luke 4:4

⁴ And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God

What's the word of God?- It is the will of God-  What's the "will" of God? It's the laws and commandments of God
So it doesnt matter that God formally gave the 10 commandments 400 odd years after Abraham to Moses-
God's word is law -spoken or written, it is law.The whole of creation is sustained by God's laws and commandments

Genesis 1:3-5

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

⁴ And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

⁵ And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The law formally given to Moses- doesnt mean it is any less significant before the time of Moses.
The law was already there from Genesis being witnessed by the angels .

Deut 30:10
^{1
     10} If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God,(spoken) to keep (obey) his commandments
        and his statutes which are written in this book of the law and if thou turn unto the Lord thy
        God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul., and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God
        with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Deut 30:19
¹⁹ I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death,
    blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

When God speaks the whole of nature listens and heaven and earth and the angels are witnesses
of the laws and commandments of God

If obedience legally is something that can only be adhered to only if it is in written form
then Adam & Eve might have a good case against God for driving them out of the garden of Eden
Adam would go something like this "God, I heard you loud and clear and it was very clear
to me when you told me' The day you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
you will surel die" . Aha - but you didnt give that commandment to me  in writing so please reverse 
that decision to drive us out of the grden of Eden"

As for Abraham not obeying the law- Read Genesis thoroughly and you will see that it was because
Abraham believed and obeyed God's voice directly (The word of God)  it was accounted to him for righteousness
It is the same with us who choose to believe God's word (The bible- The word of God) and obey that's why we are
called the spiritual seed of Abraham because we are following the example of Abraham - once he understood what
God's commandment was - He chose to believe and obey. He didnt question the validity when he was to leave
his pagan family. He didnt question God when he was to offer his only son tht he loved as a sacrifice to God.
He obeyed the great God of the universe knowing that God knows what he is doing and the outcome would be
the best one and believed God that in the end somehow he would be blessed for obeying God that God had him
covered. This is believing faith and he was greatly blessed by God 

The word of God is the will of God - It is witnessed by heaven and earth and the angels
The whole bible is about Jesus Christ who is the word of God and the word of God musy be treated
with the utomost respect (fear of God) for God's sovereignity

Yes! I can say Abraham did obey the laws and commandments of God and it doesnt make an iota of difference
whether it was given by direct revelation or in written form. Satan cannot argue because the word of God
is also in written form.  Jesus Christ when he was tempted in the wilderness said "it is written"

Ok you say we dont know with certainity what Abraham obeyed in regards to God's commandments
so what do you say to this:

Genesis 26

⁵ Because that Abraham obeyed my voice (God's direct word), and
  kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham obeyed all of God's commandments including the sabbath. There's no doubt about that

You must also understand that the people of God were already observing the sabbath right from day one
even before it was given in written form to Moses etched in stone tablets
Exodus 20:

⁸ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

This is the first mention of sabbath as instructed by God through Moses
So why would God ask them to "remember to keep the sabbath"  if it was a new thing and never heard of or practised before
Go figure

Because it was already being practised right down from Adam & Eve through Noah through Abraham
God nailed it on stone tablets officially during the time of Moses. So it doesnt mean God has to give it to you
in writing before it becomes a law or commandment. It becomes a law or commandment when God speaks it
We are not not talking about the british parliament or the american senate.
This is God's word we are are talking about and it is written in the stars

Romans 4:5

⁵ But to him that worketh not, (we cannot be saved by our own works- salvation is a gift of God through Jesus Christ- that's true)
  but believeth on him that  ( but our believing and obeying God's commandments as Abraham did- obedience is the natural consequence of            believing faith) James 1:22
  justifieth the ungodly,
  his faith is counted for righteousness (God is able to impute righteousness to us  in Christ because of our believing faith  in the whole word of   God as he did for Abraham)
 

Revelation 22:

¹⁴  Blessed are they that do (obey) his commandmentssss (plural includes 7th day sabbath keeping) 
     that they may have right to the tree of life,
     and may enter in through the gates into the city. (excludes fake christianity- people who want to do what they think is right and what is convenient for them. When Abraham was asked to get out of
 his comfort zone where his kindred was, it must have been inconvenient for
 him but he chose to obey God- Now he's called the father of faithful and the spiritual
 seed of Abraham by God's decree are those who follow his example of believing faith
  (i.e obedience)
    


 

21 hours ago, Twinky said:

Not "all Christians," Waxit.  All Israelites (ie, not just Judeans or "Jews") - yes.  All Christians - no.

Can you tell us why this issue (above all issues) is important to you?  I ask, because there are so many other things we've discussed here at the Café that appear more relevant to our daily lives.

Hi Twinky
The 10 commandments also applies to -born again christians (true christians) as Spiritual Israelites
We who believe by faith as the spiritual seed of Abraham are the israel of God if we obey all the commandments
of God

True christians represent Spiritual Israel
Galatians 3:29
²⁹ And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed,(Spiritual Israel) and heirs according to the promise.
 

True Christians are Jews inwardly in heart and spirit
Romans 2:29
²⁹ But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,
   and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (when we keep the traditions of men (sunday)
   we are accepted of men but when we keep the commandments of God, we get God's approval (one of them is 7th day sabbath
   kept with the right heart and attitude)

The issue of keeping the sabbath and he holy days of God is the framework upon which God's plan for 
the salvation of mankind is based upon.

We have a carnal nature- selfish, sinful that tries to out rationalise God's commandments into not doing them
The intellectuals and the learned people during the time of the crucifixion thought it foolishness for  Christ to die
on the cross for us and so in the same way we think it doesnt make sense for God to insist on the 7th day sabbath.
Why can it not be any day-  a day which is convenient after all it's the heart that matters, isn't it? Well God wants both heart and obedience
to His commandments. Those who obey will be blessed

So God's says in:

Isaiah 55
 

⁸ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

⁹ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts

If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study
of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.
This book is free of charge - it doesn't cost $100 like the pfalafel class

True Christians in the dark ages were peresecuted by satan through the rc church for keeping the 7th day sabbath

Do you love Jesus Christ? I am sure you do but what is the proof that you truly love Jesus Christ
This is what Jesus Christ said in John 14:15
¹⁵ If ye love me, keep my commandments (plural all the commandments of God- the whole word of God including the 7th day sabbath
                                                                             with the right heart and attitude)


 

18 hours ago, socks said:

I think that states my understanding and thoughts on it, from the "bottom line", WW. 

It would account for the shift of days over history, too. As Christianity moved away from it's "homeland" of the middle east and the roots of Jewish history and religious practice days could certainly shift, Saturday to Sunday, to Wednesday, to any day of the week for that matter. There really doesn't appear to be a clear order for the new church to maintain their past religious practices over time. I don't put a lot of weight on what they DIDN'T tell the Gentiles if the idea is they didn't because it would already be known or an assumed practice, because if they were Gentiles like ME, they wouldn't have known ANYthing about any of it. 

One of the things that strikes me about the way the revelation of Christ and the understanding of it developed is that it .... seems .... like it ended up requiring the passage of time and events in order for it to be fully hmmm...."realized" by the Church. I mean - while under the direct immersion of the Jewish faith, near or in Jerusalem, surrounded by history of the Jews any move into a "new" body of called out believers would naturally be influenced by the Jewish roots as you're pointing out WW. It only makes sense. Then that changed in ways that perhaps they never envisioned - Constantine converting? Roman prominence in the establishment of the new church? There were some unprecedented events that moved it away from being a persecuted cult to being essentially a state religion of Rome. Some baggage came with that and not all the changes over time were good but it DID under score the essential basics of Christ and in ways that it would have been difficult to embrace in the years or Peter and Paul. I think that adds to the incredible insight they DID get and their ability to change according to what they believed God was showing them. 

Many of the things that Paul reproved and instructed the Corinthian church on correcting read very much like the kinds of things that could develop in a social and political caste system that moved away from the fundamentals.of Christ, the servant leader, Messiah and emphasized seniority, heritage, position, etc.  

waxit, I think you make some very good points and we'd probably meet in the middle - if you go with Saturday over Sunday there's a basis for that just as there could be for Sunday over Saturday. Whatever the Jewish history was would certainly have a place of prominence because it's the history up until Christ. The coming of the Messiah formed a new era, one that was not anticipated as it came to be in the form of the "church" of the called out followers of Jesus Christ. 

Guys, let's stick to the sabbath day ordained by God- the subject in question is being obedient to God's 4th commandment 
in the 10 commandments. There was a specific day that God had appointed for collective teaching, fellowship, worship and rest
- the 7th day so let's not theorise- it maybe this day or that day
One thing is for sure- the early christians were taught directly the apostles who were directly taught by Jesus Christ
I believe the apostles of Jesus Christ would never deviate from what the Lord taught them to do. Do you agree with that?
Acts 2:42
⁴² And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
These were not only jews but jews and gentiles.
Someone pointed out that when the gentiles became christians they automatically adopted the "sabbath" of the 
jews. How is it then the "gentiles" didn't automatically adopt the "circumcision"? 

I am sure you will agree that Paul had such a tough time with his ministry to the gentile christians especially the corinthians in continuing in the
"apostles doctrines" . These gentile converts were still of the old mindset prior to their conversion and if sunday or any other day were an option
for collective teaching and worship (weekly gathering) don't you think they would have taken it?

(For instance:  Acts 15:29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled,
and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.

Why was there no contention regarding the day of sabbath observance as in circumcision - because the "apostles doctrine"
specified the seventh day sabbath and the gentiles coudnt argue against that.
Jesus Christ observed the sabbath (He was Lord of the Sabaath) and the apostles also observed the sabbath
The pharisees who were always busy with their intelligencia trying to find fault with what Jesus Christ and
His disciples so they could accuse Him. 
So if Jesus Christ or His followers were observing any other day except the 7th day Sabbath- dont you think they would have
been all over Him. It was always what His disciples did on the sabbath not whether they kept the sabbath

If that was not enough proof of the 7th day Sabbath mandated by God in Exodus 20
Consider this fact for over 400 years from the time of the early christian church, there was
no historical evidence of christians, of any jew or gentile anywhere ever observing any other day
except the 7th day sabbath which corresponds to our present day saturday. Why is that?

Please read Romes Challenge to the Protestants to see how sunday came into being and
why satan through the rc church persecuted christians for observing the 7th day sabbath

The same weekly 7th day sabbath observed by Jesus Christ and His followers was continued
without a break. The Sabbath of Exodus 20. If there was one thing the jews did right in spite of 
all their "traditions of edlers", it is to ensure they got the sabbath right

This same practice was continued by the apostles week in and week out. 
God knew about the changes that will take place with the introduction of the gregoran calendar which is inaccurate
and that's why God gave the jews the calculated hebrew calendar
The  sabbath has been calculated as our present day saturday


 

Romes Challenge to the Protestants.pdf

16 hours ago, socks said:

Hi - thanks. 

1. Fulfilled, and as it is said, a new covenant required a new priest. 
Matthew 5:17–18 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.
Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
And of course as Hebrews covers - 9:12 - He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.....and....7:23–24, The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.

2. No.
In Acts 15 they essentially came up with a compromise of sorts for the Church, a determination that freed Gentiles from needing to observe the Law, going forward.  It was their decision as to how to proceed and for them it left the topic of the church as a whole and specifically Jews still under discussion. In the teaching of the epistles however we see that there was - is - neither Jew nor Gentile and all believers in the faith are part of the same body and have the same Lord, Jesus Christ. So today there are not separate rules for each - 's'all one Church. 

My point in bringing that into the discussion is that it makes it easier to see what was really going on and to see the struggle they had in learning and accepting it, in a very human way that I get because by the Old Covenant I AM A GENTILE, and coming into the Christian faith in Jesus Christ I have none of the Jewish religion that I observe, just as Gentiles then didn't either.....so I wouldn't automatically assume any of it because I'd have to be taught it first. They recognized NOT to do that, and in time learned it applied to them also - one God, one Lord, one Body, and one salvation in Christ. 

Again, its just an easy way to understand the doctrine of the NT if I put myself into their shoes and nothing does that better than seeing the two groups of Jew and Gentile - one is God's called nation of people and - the other is "everyone else". I am in fact a Gentile from that viewpoint. But not in the "New covenant" of Jesus Christ through which all become one body, one Church, one group of called out people's. And in that new covenant Jesus Christ does not require me to be circumcised (although I am in heart separated and cleansed in this "new man" of Christ), or to tithe to the temple (although I can give and share freely of all that I am and have, in recognition of God's grace towards me) or to observe the Sabbath as a required day of "rest" and devotion (although I can now devote all my time and life, and everything I do, to God through Jesus Christ, "lord of the Sabbath")

Sunday? Saturday? 

Hell, I was raised Catholic, pick one, I can do one day a week with a bunch of convoluted exceptions and work arounds, standing up, that's easy time. 

In Christ, I'm on the clock 7 days a week, forever. I set aside time everyday for prayer, meditation, devotion. I need it. Charitable giving, on call service ministering - cell's off the hook now.  I've gone from death to life, from condemned to celebrated son. I'm in the family business now and it's personal AND it's business. It's a way of life. 
-----------------------

 

Based on the revelation of Peter, Paul, the witness of others at the council and the reminding of the O.T. promise of the Gentiles becoming part of God's people, it became very clear to them that Gentiles were receiving salvation through faith in Jesus Christ without any observance of the Law, and certainly circumcision which had brought the issue to a head and led to their meeting to discuss. This clarifies all of the practices of the Law - if I were a Gentile at that time, it would not have meant I would STOP doing some or all of the Law (because I wouldn't have been observing any of it, not being Jewish), it would have meant I wouldn't START doing ANY of it. The few things they did cite in their letter to the Church at that time appears to basically be a call out to the pre-Mosaic law "laws" or standards of Gods', and there's clearly no tie in to the role of such things being a part of the "new" faith, rather the inference that they are a reflection of their new lives, in Christ. I do think that gives a logical foundation for what I read later in Paul's epistles, that the spirit of God was leading them to understand the long arc of history. 

The decision of Acts 15 reflects a thoughtful Church leadership and growing members who were balancing between the old and the new - some had known Jesus face to face, followed Him, heard Him, knew Him. Others had heard the testimony of those people and then others and believed. Others like Paul had their own direct receipt of the message of Christ. All of the original group and the first generations of converts were Jewish - and now they see the message expanding out by God's direction and revelation. From my perspective today, it would seem reasonable in the narrative of Acts that the experience of Pentecost ushers in the "new covenant" of Christ in dramatic fashion and it grows from there. What it meant appears to have been a rolling out of their own knowledge, awareness and understanding. 

 

 

Can you please elaborate your understanding of:
Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Also dont get me wrong I am not saying that there is a specific day set aside for you to rest and worship
and the rest of the day you are supposed to forget God. No! we must be in constant communication with God
But God also ordained a specific day so that families and working people can rest from their labours
Other people may be forced to work to provide for their families- Most people are engaged with some type
of work to feed themselves- So God made it a universal command for an appointment all christians to
specifically set aside the 7th day (Saturday) corresponding to our modern calendar for collective
rest and worship and teaching

The early christians had direct knowledge of the word of God being taught by the apostles
who were directly taugh by Jesus Christ (The Lord of The Sabbath)
Shouldnt we follow the example set by the early christians in accordance with the word of God
Lord of the Sabbath doesnt mean Jesus Christ did what he liked but Lord of Sabbath here means-
He stood for the Sabbath.  It is like  Jesus Christ was King of the Sabbath
Jesus Christ would never break the 4th Commandment of God (Exodus 20)

Did you know that the 7th day sabbath was never in question by jews or gentiles?
That's why the sabbath never surfaced as an issue. Circumcision was but it was
settled because as you rightly said Paul preached that circumcision was the circumcision
of the heart.

In regards to the debate on whether the newly converted gentiles should conform to what the jewish
christians were doing (circumcision)in Acts 21:25

²⁵ As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that
they observe no such thing (circumcision), save only that they keep themselves from things
offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

There is absolutely nothing state above in regards to the keeping of the sabbath
Why??? Because Sabbath was never an issue
They were unified and of one heart in keeping the sabbath

Rom 10:

¹² For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

By not keeping the sabbath, Gentile christians of today contradict Rom 10:12 essentially saying we have a new understanding from the jews
No! There is nothing mentioned about sabbath in Acts 21:25 - it was purely relating to the circumcision.
This is a classic case of  where one can run into the trap of getting something out of context and applying it to something else which is unrelated

The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership
Acts 13:

⁴² And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

⁴³ Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

⁴⁴ And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

18 minutes ago, Rocky said:

That's a long way around the question without even acknowledging the question itself. 

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21

If you didn't learn it from Wierwille, where did you learn it? Okay, that wasn't the question.

But did you ever make it your own? Did you prove it or just accept what he taught you?

 

When I was in TW in NZ, I lived in the "way" homes and that's the biggest mistake that one can
make. As someone pointed out in GSC- it's a group think brain washing and the sewage comes
from the top- it's all about what the leadership from the top and the foot kissers at the twig level
tell you- your ability to think and medidate is based on the rubbish they give you.
Honestly, what chance do you have, if you told them hey LCM is wrong on this matter-
What do you think would happen.? So, No! I didnt make the word my own while I was in the way
After I got out of the way- and it was a lot of heart ache and disillusionent
I cried out to God pleading "God please show me the truth and I sought him earnestly
I still remember I was in my room praying and suddenly the awesome presence of the Holy 
Spirit came upon me and I had tears of joy for days.
The Lord systematicall led me out for error and to know the truth.
When i read this book called "God's plan for mankind", it was like- i kid you not
it was like "the scales of my eyes fell out" 
So! Yes! After I got out of the way, I made the word my own by researching and studying
and doing my best to live by what I know as truth from the word of God
 

9 minutes ago, Rocky said:

That's a long way around the question without even acknowledging the question itself. 

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21

If you didn't learn it from Wierwille, where did you learn it? Okay, that wasn't the question.

But did you ever make it your own? Did you prove it or just accept what he taught you?

 

After I came out of the way- heart broken and distraught and I sought God with tears
pleading for Him to show me the truth. I will be honest I was so brain washed by TWI
the biggest mistake of my life was not ot check TWI out and when I was in the way,
I didnt even make the word my own- You know when you live in the stinking  "way" homes
it's a group think brain wash coming - the sewage coming from the top from TWI HQ-
You are busy being guided by their activities and feeding of their "rightly divided word
The Lord systematically brought me out of false doctrine. I remember when the presence of
God came

11 hours ago, socks said:

Hi - here's my thoughts on the topic - going back to Acts 15 and the first Church "Council" of Jerusalem the leaders that met in Jerusalem discussed the expansion of the church to Gentiles, and exactly what their obligations and responsibilities were in the faith. They very deliberately carved out a place for them that did not include the circumcision nor the vast array of Mosaic laws.

As to the circumcision it now makes much clearer sense than it might have to those Jews living at that time - circumcision identifies the circumcised with Israel. Salvation in Christ identifies the saved with Jesus Christ, where circumcision is truly "of the heart".

That council's decision was to minimize the obligations of the Gentiles to the earliest and arguably simplest and broadest commandments of God to mankind, while letting them know that "Moses" was held forth and taught in ample supply for them to learn, should they wish to. So there's clearly - very clearly a difference being set forth between being subject to the law, "under it" and the encouragement to them of simply studying it and learning from it. (and Christ as the fulfillment of the Law for salvation applies to all) 

And we see throughout the New Testament writings this difference being clarified for ALL the members of the church, both Jew and Gentile - that the Law isn't a thing we can pick and choose from to keep some parts of it and not others in relation to our faith in Jesus Christ - if we keep some of it for the sake of righteousness, we are obligated to keep ALL of it and in so doing, we will negate the salvation of Christ, by grace. SO the net result of it all is simple - learning the law of Moses would have value to God's people, as both history and an understanding of God's relationship with His people but as we enter the faith, in the Church, we are no longer Jew OR Gentile, but new people in Christ and as such have this "token" of life today as the sigh of the totality of our new and future lives in eternity.

This all filters down to mean less emphasis on the rites and rituals that symbolize our relationship with God and instead living a new life of total immersion, complete relationship, 24X7, forever. We're no longer limited to one day a week or a few hours in a week of communal time with our Father, we are living it and therefore any observations, rituals and traditions have to reflect that new sense of reality as part of it. 

The Sabbath is therefore less a matter of Sunday or Saturday, regardless of how you want to decide the day. The idea of following that pattern of devotion towards God is the important aspect of it, that in our physical lives in this day and age we set aside a time to God, to honor Him and this life keeping it mind that we are under a far greater obligation to give honor to God in everything we do, at all times, and in all ways. 
 

Great point 

8 hours ago, socks said:

Thanks, and to clarify - 

I don't think there's a contradiction and that may be your point, but to be sure - they're not in conflict. 

Breaking it down - 

- Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

- Ephesians 2 - (the "new man in Christ" and the body/church of God isn't an expanded Israel, it's a new entity of both "Jew and Gentile")
 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.

- if I had been a Gentile in the era of Acts 15, I would not have been asked to dive in and learn and observe the laws and rites of the Jews. I would have been instructed to NOT do that, and given direction to line up with the earliest "laws of Noah" and give or take - live in peace while knowing that anything and everything  I might want to know about Moses and the teachings of the Law was more than available pretty much everywhere there were Jews. 

- If i'd been a Jew OR a Gentile at and following the time the epistles were written I'd have gotten essentially the same message but with a GREAT DEAL of additional detail being taught as it was revealed and understood by the writers, none of which steers me to adopt the practices and traditions of the earlier Jews. 

- Paul never addresses any kind of apparent contradiction in a way that makes me the reader feel like...hey....I should be learning how to be a good Jew....shouldn't I?....so I can be a good follower of Jesus Christ....? ... don't I need to decide which day to observe the Sabbath?....don't I need to decide how I'm going to cleanse myself and my house through my tithes and offerings....?..............Rather he teaches the joining of Jew and Gentile and all mankind from God through Christ into a new body of people. It's not just an emotional change or a strictly academic change, although both are involved - it's a basic, fundamental change in how my relationship with God and Christ is to be conducted. EVERYTHING I do has to reflect the greater "spiritual realities" if they're to be valid - no building or artifice in which God dwells or meets with me, rather a living tabernacle in a living temple...................no offering of the life of an animal through it's blood sacrifice - rather a trust in the sacrifice of the life of Christ and my offering of my own life through that, to God, for my wholeness. 

- It appears obvious but I think a re reading of Acts, Romans, Galatans and Ephesians specifically point to the grave concerns that Paul DID have - that the simple message of Jesus Christ and salvation by faith, not works, and the new Church of and in Christ ,could be easily diluted and changed....so much to the point that when push ever came to shove he didn't want to break the church up over arguments of do-this-or-do-that, he wanted us to remember the "higher ground" of our faith in Christ alone. 

PEACE. 

 

Socks- You are absolutely right when you say our relationship with God must be 24/7 and we have that priveledge of
communicating with God as christians who are living in the post resurrection of Christ era.
I must point out though the bible versions wwe have got a lot of errors in translation including the KJV which is notorious 
Just because wthe KJV tells you what has been added by way of italics doesnt mean you can trust it
This is the reason for 2 Timothy 2:15 
We normally decide what is true by what we think is the correct interpetation of scriptures based on the material
supplied by a particular version not realising that maybe there are translation errors (in ths case I think you are using
KJV. Am i correct?

In addition I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
(1) Are you saying then that the Law has been abolished?
(2) Are you saying the Jews can have one way of doing things and the Gentiles
     need not follow- the Gentiles can do their own thing






 

12 hours ago, waysider said:

The so called Word has lots and lots of contradictions that oftentimes don't fit harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures, no matter how you slice or dice them. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Not everything always fits like a hand in a glove, with mathematical accuracy and scientific precision. 

That's right and that's why we need to be like the bereans Acts 17:11. God called them noble
In regards to TWI, i feel we didnt check the twi personally out thoroughly and felt that the way vw
was flawless and gave him too much credit

8 hours ago, Rocky said:

That sounds like something you learned from Wierwille.

How do YOU know it does not have contradictions or that it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures (as we know them)?

Look not everything that you learnt from vw is false - he did teach some good principles
you cant honestly tell me that keys to rightly dividing the word of God is rubbish (plagiarized maybe but not rubbish)
Satan doesnt give you everything bad otherwise you will run away
vw was a stupid clown who didnt live the word of God with the type of lifestyle that he led
in fact he admitted that he didnt believe the word. I dont at what point satan entered into him to devise the whole
cult set up so he can travel around in his luxury purpose van- i suppose the bed was the most important thing to him
and he wanted to have free sex while calling himself "father in the word"
I can only pity him when he comes face to face with God
So dont go on a witch hunt on me and tie me in with vw just because i spoke about the rightly divided word
which is biblical

I know what I spoke about regarding the sabbath doesnt have contradictions and it fits
harmoniously because I have studied and  checked them out

God loves you bud and wants all of us to come to a knowledge of the truth
Love in Christ
Gabe

4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

you've made reference to " the rightly divided word of God" a few times in this discussion - I was wondering if you could break that down - would you please define that.

When i say "rightly divided word of God, I am referring to the truth in God's word
that does not have contradictions
and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scrptures

17 hours ago, Twinky said:

Names of days are arbitrary; in fact, most days are named after pagan gods.  When a named day falls is arbitrary.

If you're going to get really precise, you have to count the 7th day from the original first "day of rest."  Don't envy you that task.

Please have a little more respect for people here.  You have knocked some very thoughtful people.  We have reached our current views after long heart-searching, after sometimes painful journeys out of the bullying and dogmatic approach of TWI.  No-one here needs anyone else to try to order us to think in a particular way.  By all means, present your argument - for discussion, not for dogma or doctrine.

I know you are passionate to understand God and to do your best.  Please accept that others are, also, and we are all at different places of our understanding of God.  Do what's right for you, now.  

Point taken- I probably have to re word things so it comes across as a discussion rather than doctrine that should be accepted
Sorry to all if I gave you the wrong impression
Something to consider Twinky
The names of days may have been arbitrary and it maybe named after pagan gods but right from the beginning the sabbath has
been observed and has been passed through the generations.
Otherwise why would God say"remember to keep the sabbath" even before it's introduced
The Jews have got a lot of their own man made traditions as in the pharisees - hundreds of complicated rules
which God never told them to do and they observed the sabbath with the wrong heart- they were strict in their observance and the one thing they could never be
fauted on is observing the weekly 7th day sabbath- which God commanded them to do
using the calculated hebrew calendar- it's very accurate. 
God gave them the calendar and God should know because he created time, days and seasons
the day we call saturday has been calculated as
the 7th day-  I know there were the introduction of the gregorian (modern day calendar) but the jews re adjusted
it to ensure that it was always the 7th day that they observe the sabbath

In Exodus 20- even before the ten commandments was officially given in written tablets
God is saying remember to keep the sabbath- so it was not something new to them, the knowledge
of when to keep it has been passed right down from Adam & Eve where the word of God was written in the stars

Exodus 20

⁸ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

15 hours ago, Rocky said:

Okay... but just in case you may have missed it, there's Matthew 7:1

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I am not judging- what makes you think I am judging?
I only discern what is right and wrong by comparing it with the rightly divided word of God
If i am proven wrong going by the word of God-rightly divided (of course! vw took everyone for a ride)
then I am humble enough to learn from it and accept it. There maybe things that no one knows for sure
until they are in the kingdom of God meeting Jesus Christ face to face

15 hours ago, Rocky said:

There will also be people who will refuse to agree with your understanding of something in the Bible that you emphatically hold true but may indeed be your misunderstanding. Just sayin'.

Pride goes before the fall. See Proverbs 16. 

Yeah! that's true- like i said if you read my previous post- there will always be people who will disagree that I hold true
and you maybe one of them-  so what!  The whole world accept for a small minority agreed with Jesus Christ who was THe Way, The Truth and The Life
so am i that people should agree with me when I show them the word of God. My duty as a christian
is to hold forth the word- what people do with it is their own business
Everyone is accountable to the Lord on the day of judgement
 

On 4/1/2020 at 4:02 AM, Twinky said:

Oh goodness, 34 pages.  Can you summarise a little, Waxit?

So some might say, does that refer to the then Israel, or to the "spiritual Israel" meaning all believers now?

You need to look at (if you don't mind the expression) The "heart behind it."  Work six days, have a rest and spend time with your family.  God knows it's important to have periodic rests.  He also knows it's important to keep family structures together (heck, he invented "family") and all hanging out together, eating together, is important for family cohesion and family values (one of which would be respecting the Lord).

Equally, however, there are some that did not "keep the Sabbath" on the "Sabbath day."  These would include those working in the temple - all the Levites and other officials.  We don't know when their "day of rest" would be; perhaps the day before, though that's off topic here.

 

 

 

Ok!  To summarise, the weekly sabbath is always on the seventh day of the week and is a commandment from God.
If there is one thing that the pharisees
got it right is the observance of the sabbath on the 7th day of the week (i.e saturday not sunday (1st day of the weeK

Please read my attachment of "Romes challenge to the protestants" on how sunday came into being
despite the fact that for over 400 years since the time of the early christians- there was no such thing as a sunday sabbath
If you didnt see the attatachment
when i started the topic "One man esteemth one day above another......", let me know and i will re send it to you

You have got the right understanding behind God ordaining the day of rest and why God established it as a commandment
right from the beginning. However the details of when it is to be observed is also important. (7th day of the weeK)

Hebrews 13:8

⁸ Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Gen 2:3

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested
from all his work which God created and made.

If Jesus Christ didnt keep the sabbath then he would have broken the 4th commandment
of the 10 commandments and your salvation and mine would have been kaput.
We have a perfect saviour who never sinned. 
You say that Jesus Christ always kept the law but not necessarily the sabbath
You are contradicting yourself here accrding to God's word
The law is "keep the 7th day sabbath". So if Jesus did not keep the 7th day sabbath at any time, he would have broken the law.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Twinky show me in the bible where Jesus did not keep the sabbath

Are you saying that because Jesus healed the man with a withered man, he is not keeping the sabbath
This is what the pharisees said but look at what Jesus Christ replied:
Luke 6

⁶ And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

⁷ And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

⁸ But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

⁹ Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

So healing and sabbath service is part of the sabbath. Jesus frequently healed on the sabbath so he never broke
the 4 th commandment. The levites might have taken another day off but within the context of "keeping the sabbath
for rest, worship,teaching & fellowship, they never broke the commandment.
Sabbath starts at even (evening(sunset) of the 6th day- friday and finishes on the evening(sunset) of saturday
There is plenty of time for the priests to sleep and to have a nap

The orthodox Jews had a very strict interpretation of "no works" on the sabbath and therfore did not observe sabbath
with the right heart and attitude of having no crinkles on their colours but Jesus Christ (the Lord of the Sabbath) said:
"Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
Healing is part of the sabbath. Today we dont have Jesus with us physically so what happens when
someone is ill - he has a common cold- He has to go to the door for medicine/antibiotics right
so in this way he gets healed and rested

God has covered us within the context of the sabbath if we ever needed healing and rest
I hope I am making sense- Jesus Christ always kept the Sabbath (7th day-saturday as commanded by God)
not sunday- man made tradition (roman catholics started it)

Read "Rome's Challenge to the Protestant" (google it if you dont have a copy or i can send you a pdf version)
 

On 4/1/2020 at 4:02 AM, Twinky said:

 

 

6 hours ago, Rocky said:

Am I understanding your intent Waxit to be that if anyone disagrees with your understanding, they somehow aren't "in fellowship" with God? Or some variation on that theme?

Or perhaps you meant to ask which part of any of them does anyone understand differently than you?

People may agree or disagree with me-that's a fact of life-  I am not saying that I have all the answers and that everyone should follow me
That's not my intent- not at all
I meant to ask which part of my statement, someone is having difficulty understanding
At the end of the day- there are some people who genuinely have a difficulty understanding
for some reason and these are people that I can discuss further
But there will also be people who will refuse to understand by holding to something that is clearly
a contradiction of the word of God
and I can still love them and pray for them but i wont waste my time discussing further with them
God words is such that when you rightly divide the word- everything fits and there is one unified understanding
as vw the con man rightly stated there are no 10,000 ways to cut a coat

5 hours ago, Rocky said:

"Trust me you have to change your attitude to one of meekness and obedience like Moses
and become humble to God's word if you want his blessings."

What about Matthew 5:44-45?

⁴⁴ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵ that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Trust me, Waxit, you may or may not have the final word on what pleases God and what doesn't.

Rocky, first of all Mark is not my enemy and secondly I definitely do not have the final word on what pleases God. Only the Lord Jesus Christ will judge rigteously in the end
Only God knows who will and who will not enter the kingdom of God.
I dont know whether you give a hoot about the sabbath which is a really important topic
but instead you are picking to comment on something  that you should think about before you tap on the keyboard
To be honest, I did not want to comment to Mark's reply because I thought he might be in the twilight zone
but i thought wait a minute, he needs to be shown so he can think along the correct lines outlined in the word of God
So this is actually loving the person enough to show him and not ignore someone. It was not delivered with hatred but love

It's great that you are sticking up for Mark but it's unwarranted and it's not thought through and hence the knee jerk reaction
Someone who is quick to jump the gun in defence saying Haannm! Who do you think are?

My reply to Mark is one of those cases akin to someone observing the tell tale signs of what a person is saying
and making an accurate assesment of what's going to happen to him which is in line with the manual (the word of God).
If you want to make an accurate assesment on how a car will function, you will read the car manual
If you dont like the sound your refrigerator is making, you will read the refigerator manual
So the same thing with spiritual things, you go to the bible

This is why God gave us His word so we can learn from examples in the word like Moses and see what pleases
God and to make sure we are on the right track spiritually (rightly dividing the word)
It's a bit ridiculous for you to comment on my reply to Mark and say-  "I may or may not have the final word on what pleases God"
because you are assuming I am being a judge and I am not the judge- just pointing out what pleases God coming from the divinely
inspired word of God aka the bible
Why do you think God;s word written so it will remain a complete
mystery!!!!!!!and  becausee God wants us confused all our lives!!!!!!!!! as to what pleases Him
No! definitely not

Thanks for quoting Mark 5:44-45 but it's unwarranted and out of context because
Mark is not my enemy, just someone who needs to be shown from the bible the error
behind his own opinionated  thinking so if he decides to change his thinking,
he can be on the right track spiritually not according to what I think
but according to what God is looking for so God can shower His blessings on Mark

Biblical Definition of Meeness::
Meekness is an attribute of human nature and behavior. It has been defined several ways:
righteous, humble, teachable, and patient under suffering, long suffering
willing to follow gospel teachings; an attribute of a true disciple


Psalm 25:

⁹ The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

¹⁰ All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.