Nathan_Jr

I thought the thread was started to explore love in general, what it means, what it is. The opening post cites secular, biblical, and cultic propositions.

Inevitably, such a discussion will include philosophical, religious, humanistic, scientific, psychological, biblical... perspectives.

1 minute ago, Charity said:

Feel free to correct me any time.  I remember reading something about this but I found it confusing, although I did look up the meaning of radicals which I'm sure only confused me more .  So, are you saying that since vp was inaccurate with the "sitting" stuff that rest and ceasing work is a correct translation?

If I have to explain, the effectual power with impact will be lost. 

Someone here claimed that victor's ministry was not really about research. The claim is victor's was a verification ministry.

But when one starts to verify what victor spoke and wrote, one finds out just how wrong he was about damn near everything.

How wrong, you might ask?

Dead wrong  That's how.

25 minutes ago, Charity said:

...the Sabbath... The 4th commandment taught the Jews that in order to enter into God's rest, they had to cease from their own works. 

Charity, I'm not saying you are wrong, but either you didn't absorb it fully the first time or you forgot.

victor revealed rest and ceasing work are inaccurate translations of the most difficult radicals in the Hebrew language. According to victor, Sabbath is sitting, not ceasing. He should know. victor studied eighteen hours per day for forty years. If anyone knew Hebrew, victor did.

If victor said it, it is settled.

victor was the seventh THE man of god. Six came before him. victor put oil on the head of the one who came after him, the eighth THE man of god.

Read that again.

Oil.

OIL!!!

I can leave my wallet at home and buy gas and groceries at Kroger and Whole Foods with my phone.

Amazon started developing a cashless/cardless/scan-less grocery store a few years ago. No registers, no scanners, no payment processors. Walk in, load your cart, bag your own goods, walk out. Billing for everything is automatic through your Amazon account.

They know what you got. They know where you are. They know who you are.

Cameras are everywhere. Literally. Actually.

Cash is difficult to track. Invisibility and anonymity are luxuries purchased with cash only.

Entreating people to embrace the words of a con man? Could that be more loving?

"And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money." Exodus 21:7-11

3 minutes ago, waysider said:

I'm thinking he wasn't paying attention the first time he heard it. Or maybe he just forgot.

Free radicals are easy to forget.

The Word means a lot of things. For some it can mean anything. YourBelieving+YourWalk+TheBible+ChristInYou.

"Will" has synonyms. The explicit and implicit meanings vary.

Logos is Greek for word. But it's not as simple as it appears. Pinning down the concept of logos is a winding and cavernous endeavor.

And then there's God. What is meant? Depends on who you ask.

"God's word is God's will" is a loaded, pithy phrase, insidiously designed to seduce.

1 hour ago, waysider said:

 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.  And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation.  They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

 

Must have been God's will.

That poor man didn't understand the meaning of Sabbath. It means to sit. sit, Sit, SIT!!

If he had only been gathering sticks while sitting, he could have avoided the stoning.

1 hour ago, Mike said:

When they DID have access they were to make copies of parts to hang in their houses

When? 1000 B.C.? 700 B.C.? 300 B.C? 200 B.C.? Who are they? Who is making copies?

I would love to read more about this. What is your source for this claim?

4 hours ago, Mike said:

they all painted themselves into a corner on this one.

No one is painted into a corner. Literally, no one.

He is his own rainbow.

Jesus Christ says loving God is like like loving your neighbor which is like loving yourself. Love completely.

Who is your neighbor? How do you love him?

Jesus answers these questions in a parable that must have been difficult for his listeners to understand.

But for those with eyes to see and ears to hear it is a lesson on how.

H

O

W

MIKE "When Jesus cited the greatest commandment, he was quoting from a most pivotal and important scripture for his audience.

Deut 6:1-12"

Indeed, the reference is to Deut 6:5, not this whole passage. This one verse is a distinct commandment to Israel among several in this section.

1. Obey all of Yahweh's laws without exception or else. Obey and get prosperous.
2. Love Yahweh with all your heart, soul and strength.
3. Put those two commandments on your heart, let them permeate every facet of your life.
4. Don't forget Yahweh when you take possession of land and resources developed by others.

"Paraphrasing:  You love God by loving His words and saturating your life with them."

Nope. That's not a paraphrase. It's not EVEN a paraphrase.

"And a little followup for us Christians with:

1 John 5:1-3
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome..."

If you love God, you love his children; to love the Son is to love the Father. To keep the commandments of the Father is to keep the commandments of the Son. There are two great ones and they are like each other. Neighbors are involved, not just fellow believers.

So much of this epistle is about what it means to know Jesus the Christ and to keep his commandments to love one another. To love completely is to know Christ. This will manifest in righteousness. 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

God told natural men of Israel to love God, and He told them how: become "Bible freaks."

Except He didn't. He just didn't. Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself. Hey, I didn't write  the book!

To assert such a fantasy is tantamount to victor's scatological play with the mouth of God. 

I knew there was a need for this topic, especially in light of the fountainous bullshonta developing in the other thread. Thank you, Charity, for starting it.

1 hour ago, Charity said:

However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting.  If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult.  What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc.   

 

This resonates. I think this may be foundational to sociopathy and associated personality disorders like NPD and BPD.

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

This paragraph is thought provoking for me. You know a lot of the issues Im dealing with as far as PTSD or even CPTSD in my case and a lot of this makes sense to me. So much of our disposition has been influenced by our verious environments through different seasons of life. Ive had to learn so many things because of my extremely dysfunctional upbringing. Ive had to learn how to love and how to trust and it's in the context of setting boundaries to help navigate relationships. But I feel for most people love is learned by example and taught primarily in the home. but love is something we are given...the question is do we know what to do with love and are we capable of expressing love once we experience it.

This resonates with me, as well. Thank you.

------

Love is NOT conditional, transactional.

Love is complete acceptance of what actually is, not what we want or hope something to be. This is especially true for love of self, something I've struggled with my entire life.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Do you think Jesus would have issued that great commandment for the people to love God if they didn't know how to love Him.

Of course. It would be exactly his style. He said a lot of things people didn't understand. The Gospels show and tell how the people, even his own disciples, didn't understand him.

39 minutes ago, Rocky said:

And pretty much ALL of us who fell under his influence, had our hearts deceived for a time.

And I submit this knowing of the truth of this deception is a seeing of the truth.

Whether one sees it within the first few minutes of PFAL, or one catches a glimpse in the mirror years later, or one endeavors to test every piece of bullshonta over a lifetime, for each it is the same.

It is an instantaneous, bell-ringing clarity of vision.

It is NOT a belief. It is not even knowledge.

Once seen, it cannot be unseen.
 

Never mind, Mike. I think I figured it out.

There is no way "their words; their will" answers a how (H-O-W) question. That's just not how (H-O-W) language works. Meaning matters.

It could only answer the what question. For you. You think to love is to serve. If that's what love means to you, then your answer fits yourself...

... like a hand in a glove.

50 minutes ago, Mike said:

Their words; their will.

Is this the answer to your how (H-O-W) question?

Or is it the answer to your what question?

“The Word” means a lot of things. There’s probably a thread for that.

Is there any doubt what victor and TWI mean when they say The Word? Do they not mean the Bible, specifically, the Wierwille Revised Version (WRV)?

Bibliolatry, indeed. Because the mantra is decidedly NOT “The Light, the light, the light, and nothing but the light…The Love, the love, the love, and nothing but the love…”

6 hours ago, Charity said:

Hi, If you can see truth, then have you found it?  And what do you do with truth once you see it if you can't hold onto it?  Does the truth you see lead you anywhere - are you able to follow it and apply it to your life?  Is truth personal to how one sees/perceives it and therefore cannot be said to be THE truth?

People used to tell me that the birth of my son would change my life. However they described it, however they explained it, that was not it. Their words were insufficient.

You are a mother. You might know what I'm talking about. It is something that cannot be explained or contained conceptually. It is indescribable, is it not?

We are so eager to have someone else provide answers. We want someone else to see it for us. We want someone else to tell us what to do.

No one can see it for you.

Trust.

But don't trust me.

Truth cannot be found. It is not to be attained. Truth is nothing to be possessed.

But all the priests, gurus and teachers will happily take your money, honor and devotion in exchange for a comfortable package of knowledge you can hold in your brain or in their books. Then you say, "I've got it! I found it!"

Truth cannot be held. The one claiming to HAVE the Truth is surely the one who does not.

Truth is to be seen.

It can be seen by anyone with eyes to see.

27 minutes ago, waysider said:

I think you may have mentioned that.

On the occasions when you speak in Spanish, do you have to make a conscious effort to think "differently"?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. The less practiced I am, the more conscious effort seems to be in play. It could be that I'm aware of my deficiency and am making an effort to choose the right words, tenses, conjugations, etc. Generally, the effort tends to be counterproductive.

When I used to speak it regularly, daily, whether in class or living in Central America, it was effortless. No thought. 

When the student is ready the master appears. When the student is TRULY ready the master disappears. (Tao Te Ching)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

In my early twenties I was fluent in Spanish. I spent a summer in Central America — an experience so immersive I dreamt in Spanish. I wouldn’t call myself bilingual, but I always speak Spanish with the landscapers and the guys at the taqueria.

I also studied Latin, French and Italian many moons ago. Knowing French and Italian was useful when I was in the wine business. Latin is always just under the surface, easily seen if I care to look.

I’m interested in language. I used to be rather geeky about it. Still love it, but it’s just not a muscle I exercise like I used to.

Oh, did I mention I’m trilingual in glossolalia?