Sunesis

Kit, I have read several wonderful books on this topic. I think the best one was "The Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion" (available on Amazon) by a man who had been born again as a child but grew up absolutely hating and mocking Christians. There was another book, I forget the title. Also, John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress had a vision of Hell - this was back in the 1600s I believe. I later read an account by a nun in the 19th century, but it was Bunyan's vision plagerized (no internet back then - she didn't think she'd get caught).

The thing I found interesting about these separate, totally unrelated visions, was that they all seemed to mesh. Centuries apart, they all saw basically the same thing. I do believe in these times, God does give dreams and visions to people for those who wish to learn.

I also know, people have jumped on the bandwagon. Some are true, some are imagination. But I do think God is trying to tell people, life and creation is not always going to go on as it is.

Once I realized the whole Bible was a book of prophecy, some things things fell into place for me. What is the theme? There are basically three themes.

1. Mankind is a fallen race that God wishes to restore and to dwell with them eternally;

2. In order to do this, he will send a redeemer (who is the subject of the prophecy); and

3. The Messiah's message is a "New Creation" coming. Literally a new Heaven and New earth.

The laws of physics and things as we know it will not apply. It will be a new creation - one we cannot imagine.

The Redeemer, the subject of the prophecy has one message: There is a Kingdom coming. Believe in me and enter in and live eternally.

That's it. Its simple. That was Christ's message.

I believe the new coming creation involves new dimensions.

We read in Rev., that after all rebellion and sin is finally put down and the new Heaven and Earth are made, that several things "survive" so to speak, and enter into the new creation: Angels; those who believed the Messiah who is the Christ, and the "Lake of Fire."

The Lake of Fire and its inhabitants is a place, in another dimension which is "outside" the City (Rev. 22:15) and new creation wherein dwells righteousness.

JJ, I do not believe it is unloving. I think people, who hate God, who want nothing to do with him, who have rejected his offer of eternal life - there are people who have demonstrated their preference for anything other than eternal fellowship with God and with all who love light. For them, the experience of forced fellowship with God for an eternity would be less tolerable than hell.

These individuals do not want to be in God's presence and would find heaven and his presence repugnant. Thus, to be fair, God cannot morally command them to believe and dwell with him. It would be "unfair." It would be a gross violation of your free will.

I believe the Lake of Fire (whatever that means - I think it symbolizes something we can't imagine) is a place where people and demons get what they want above all else: Freedom. Yes Freedom.

In that dimension, they get freedom from the Will and Rule of God and freedom from the restraints of conscience and the voice of the Holy Spirit. God yields to the desires of his committed "rebels" by withdrawing forever the influence of His Spirit from their beings.

An individual who knowingly refused to worship God in this life will never change his mind. The price for entrance into the new creation - worship of God - is a price too high to pay.

As Hebrews says: "No sacrifice for sins is left" for those who knowingly discard God's sacred gift.

As far as "torment" goes - the greek word can also mean an immobilization, a distraction, a restraint. I.e., you're thrown in prison. You're a nice guy. There are 8 men who would love to do things to you. At this point, for your safety, the most "loving" thing the guards could do is restrain them, maybe a leg iron so you can sleep at night instead of having to stay awake all night.

God says, at the great white throne judgment men will be judged by their works. Many are violent people, many are just average Joes who wanted nothing to do with God.

God, in his love and mercy has put just enough "torment" or distraction or restraints to keep in check the horrors that could happen in a place where there is no God, love, holy spirit or conscience.

I think the Comforter that was sent into the world, God's Spirit today, blunts the impact of sin and evil in this world (we can't see the spiritual things going on in the dimension of the heavenly), and thus, we tend underestimate evil and its horror and minimize what Christ took on himself on the cross.

But, each one of us does get to choose where we would like to spend eternity. The choice is ours.

Those who "opt out" of redemption and eternity with God and Christ may not like being restrained in another dimension - but they will always be eternally proud of their rebellion against God - their minds will never change.

So, I think its fair.

My question would be: Why, would someone who dislikes God and cannot worship him - even want to spend eternity with him?

It would be like forcing a committed vegetarian to eat meat - they would be repulsed.

Interesting topic Kit.

That's awesome!!!! Good for you John!

Enjoy your prize

I never knew Linder, Groucho - he must have been after my time. But I agree, he does sound like a major douche bag.

I think TWI had its day. Does anyone in the country know who they are anymore?

To think some old german hick on a farm was so revered and worshippped by many.

Ok, now that I know the background - you made the totally right decision.

I had no idea the background information.

I wouldn't set foot, send a gift, or possibly even have responded.

Good for you!

I still can't see it either. When I click the link I get an error.

Oh well.

I think I would ask myself - how important is this person to me? If not immediate family or someone not terribly close, a gift would be in order.

But, if it is someone important to me, then I would have to go.

If you are important to this person, they will remember the rest of their days that you did not attend. Just like when my sister married her husband at Rome City, and my father, who disliked the Way, did not go. She never forgot. Neither will this person. It will be an unspoken elephant in the room for years - a lifetime.

Maybe someday they will leave TWI. They will remember you were brave enough to enter "enemy territory" to be with them, and, maybe point to a way out - without words. Just by your being there.

Go. You have nothing to fear.

Your presence and love will be remembered the rest of your loved one's days.

Jesus, asked his Disciples - who do people say I am? They gave various answers. Just as people give various answers today.

I ran across this little writing and on this Christmas day, thought it would bless people. He is the reason for the season. But who is He - really??

Here's what the Bible says.

***

He was from the beginning. He was with God, and He is God. He is the firstborn over creation, and in Him the fullness of God dwells.

All things were created by Him and for Him. He laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. Without Him, nothing was made that has been made.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He upholds the universe by the word of His power. It is through Him that we exist. He is the mystery of God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ.

In the fullness of time, God sent Him to be the Savior of the world. He came to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

He was made flesh and dwelt among people. Full of grace and truth, He was the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of His being.

Born in the likeness of man, He took upon Himself the form of a servant. He became poor so that we may become rich.

The radiance of God's glory, He walked in love and compassion. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.

Meek and gentle, He was treated harshly, yet He did not protest. Despised and forsaken, He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Though He was tempted as we are, He did not sin.

He came to deliver those who through fear of death were all their lives subject to bondage. He humbled Himself and became obedient to death -- even the death of the cross. He assumed human form to mediate between God and men.

He was pierced for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities. He bore our trespasses in His body and washed our sins with His own blood.

He was made a curse so that we could be made right with God. He was raised for our justification. It is by His wounds that we are healed. It is He who brings us back to God.

Manifested in the flesh, He was justified in the spirit. Having been buried, He was raised on the third day. He ascended on high and led captivity captive.

To those who receive Him He gave the right to become children of God. Whoever calls upon His name shall be saved, and whoever believes in Him has eternal life.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name by which men may be saved. He is the way, and the truth, and the life.

This is how God showed His love for us: He sent His one and only Son that we might live through him. For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

In Him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. He guides the meek and teaches them His ways. Exalted of God, in Him is the mystery of godliness.

He will judge the living and the dead, and every knee shall bow down before Him. He will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and expose the motives of men's hearts. He will gather the wheat into his garner and burn the chaff with unquenchable fire.

But to those who thirst, He shall give from the spring of the water of life, for He is full of unfailing love and faithfulness. He who believes in Him shall live.

He is the bright morning star. Crowned with glory and honor, He holds all authority in heaven and on earth. It is through Him that God brings everything back to Himself. It is through Him that God speaks to us.

The first begotten of the dead, He is the heir of all things. He is the light, and the darkness has not overcome him. He is the prince of peace and the bread of life. His love surpasses all knowledge. He is the life of men.

His throne will last forever, and His days will never end. Righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom.

He is the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

He fills everything in every way. He is the Almighty One.

He who has ears, let him hear. Let those who are wise understand, for these things have been written that we may believe and, by believing, have life in His name.

Vasko Kohlmayer

Geisha - I have always loved your posts! I can't believe anyone would call you a name! :)

I'd love to hear what you've been learning/seeing/musing on...

Abi, you were a wonderful mod. Actually, I was never moderated on anything here until I sallied forth into the political forum this past year. But it was a pleasure talking with you Abi - you've got a good heart. I hope your family is doing well.

Alas, I think I am #1 on Paw's list. :(

What a long strange trip its been - to paraphrase a famous musician.

From Trancechat to Waydale to GS.

I've reconnected with some wonderful people and made friends with some wonderful people along the way.

For me, that's what TWI was really about - the people.

All of you take care of yourselves and enjoy the journey.

I will miss many of you.

Hmmm... I have never had a desire to go to church after TWI. In fact, I have oftentimes thought God was pulling believers out of the church. I have run into many wonderful Christians during daily life, work, etc. that also don't go to church.

I'll have to check out this book.

What are some of its main points?

Heartless = sociopaths, I sometimes thought.

Parents in leadership positions with no "natural affection" for their kids.

No love for others.

Death was because someone wasn't believing hard enough so the debil got 'em.

Someday that woman who was so heartless will need her "natural" family. I wonder if they have washed their hands of her?

What goes around comes around.

I have come to the conclusion over the years that he was a wolf in sheeps clothing, one masquerading as an angel of light.

When the "jesus movement" exploded in the '60s in CA, he went there with the intention of getting a piece of the action. He had a product to sell (the class) and just needed young men to move it for him. He managed through Heefner and Dopp to get a piece of the action.

People ask, how can he have been so nasty in his personal life, but seem so wonderful on stage or while teaching?

Simple, he stole another man's class (B.G. Leonard), called it his own, learned it and taught it.

The class didn't come from his heart, it came from another man's heart.

There was no love in VP 's heart for the "people." OH, sure, he liked individuals well enough, and if he thought you had leadership potential, would spend money on you so you could get your teeth fixed (he did that for one leader), or whatever would make you more presentable.

I think once he had his leadership in place, the mask slipped a little more.

Anyway, he hijacked others' ministries and claimed them for his own.

Many people knew.

If you didn't agree with him you were shut out, and kicked out - you were silenced.

But, it was Geer's Passing of the Patriarch that really opened peoples' eyes - and not in the sense I think CG had in mind. He was another VP idolitor. Instead of throwing our allegience to him, people saw how self-serving that writing and the author really were.

People turned away in disgust - it was the straw that broke the camel's back. People now had license to leave - and we did.

Yes, I think people felt betrayed. They gave their life, gave up their youth - for what?

VP was shown to be just another "man behind the curtain." Especially at the end - a whiny man - blaming everyone but himself for TWI's failings.

The concept of slavery is interesting. When we think of it in the USA, we think of lynchings, the lash and terrible cruelty done to blacks.

We forget, that since the beginning of civilization, slavery was a way of life. You had rich, merchants and farmers. If you study slavery in Paul's day, it was not like what went on in the US. Many slaves loved their masters and did not want to leave. You were allowed to buy your freedom - you could sell yourself to the god of the temple (whichever one was worshippped) and you would belong to him. Slaves could be adopted and have more rights than the "real" children - it was different.

I was talking to someone who was in Africa, in one of the countries where slavery is a very big thing today - I forget what country now. Most of the slaves are black christian, or black muslim, owned by arab muslims. Its a regular neighborhood - you would have no clue there were hundreds of slaves behind the walls. Its a "normal" way of life. You do your tasks, do them well, have a schedule, eat, sleep, some go to school, some run the household.

It just comes down to - sometimes you have a lot in life that may not change either now or in the future. You can rage against the machine, or try and make the best of it, as Joseph in Egypt did and he ended up being the Pharoah's most trusted right hand man. God is with us whereever we are - even if we walk through the shadow of the valley of death - he is there.

In our country today, we don't have slavery as an accepted institution. I look at employment as a benign form of slavery. I please my employer, do a good job and I am paid money with which to survive. I am in a sense, their "servant." I can break the rules or leave and lose the benefits, or play by the rules and prosper. The choice is up to me. Which is more expedient?

Someone also pointed out, that even under tyrannical Roman rule, never once did Jesus advocate rebelling, overthrowing the government or the assassination of Ceasar or whoever was the ruler. Dictatorship, or rule by King had pretty much been the norm for millenia - democracy is an old concept, but never really lasted long. Someone alway wants to be "boss" - or King, or as we call the king today - a dictator. I think that may even happen here someday. People want someone to rule over them. They want someone to give them their benefit and their stuff. Humans will never bring about a perfect government or utopia on earth. In the gospels, Jesus' message was: The Kingdom of God is at hand. Of course, we know Israel rejected Him and the Kingdom, and it will be realized in Revelation, but, until then, in many countries the best advice is, live your life as best you can. If you must rebel - fine. Prepare to pay the consequences. The ruler is not a "terror" but to those who oppose him.

But, each situation is different. Who knows how each of us would react under a harsh dictatorship? I would still have to try and go by the guideline set out by Jesus, Paul and Peter.

I have found the famous theologian, Dietrich Bonhoffer, a great example of what we are talking about here.

He was a devout Christian, from a well to do upper class german family, I think one brother became SS or something in the Nazi party.

He could not in good conscience join the Nazi Party. He also wrote about the dilemma he found himself in: Do I pray for my leader to succeed knowing it may destroy my country, or do I pray for him not to suceed knowing it will be best for my country?

However he prayed, he led fellowships and as the war broke out, was offered several times passage to America where he could teach and wait the war out. He refused saying how could he ever face his congregation after the war if he left and they had stayed and suffered? He stayed.

Now, I personally believe, Ephesians - our "warfare" is spiritual, i.e, it is by prayer to the bringing down of strongholds of spiritual wickedness and principalitie in high places. Sometimes we forget - there are things going on behind the scenes we aren't aware of. But, we are not called to go to war and overthrow our governments. Can we work to change it, get out the vote, etc? sure.

But, getting back to Bonhoeffer, as time went on, and he was horrified by Hitler, the war and destruction, he got involved in one of the plots to kill Hitler. The plot failed. He and others were caught and put in jail. As I said, because of his family, he had a nice cell, he could write, receive packages, food, etc. He wasn't brutally tortured and thrown in a dungeon somewhere to rot or sent to a camp. He was from a good family.

You should read his letters from prison sometime. He writes to friends and family. Since he is from the well known, 100% pure aryan stock, no one, neither friends nor family, really believe he will be killed for his actions. So they write along, can't wait 'til you get out, yadda yadda.

One day, without warning, he and several others are put on a truck, driven into the woods, lined up and shot.

The family is still writing then after a couple of weeks, start wondering why he's not replying...

I guess my point here is - here is a man who decided to be a "warrior" and forgot our battle is against higher spiritual wickedness on high - of which we have been given the Power to withstand and our weapon is prayer. He got sucked into - well, I need to kill him...

Result? Friends and family survive and a man's life is thrown away. I think he could have done so much if he had lived and not put himself in that situation. Of course, who am I to judge? But I think sometimes, so many Christians because of naivite and good intentions, die when its maybe not God's will for them to.

34 times they tried to assassinate Hitler. I do believe he rose to power with the help of ungodly spiritual force and was protected by them.

The Chinese have a saying: a ruler has a "divine mandate" and when he loses it you'll know. Things start going wrong, little omens. Whom the gods would destroy they first exalt.

Just as the angel, on his way to teach Daniel was withheld for 21 days by the spirit prince and ruler of Persia, whom Michael had to finally come rebuke, I do believe a leader can ride on the coattails of evil in a spiritual sense to power.

The 20th century was a century of unprecedented death and evil - easily about 200 million wiped out by the Stalins, Lenins, Castros, Pol Pots, Hitlers, Mao - wickedness unleashed.

As I said, I think for the average person, Paul, Peter and Jesus' advice is good and can keep one alive. Obey the authorities to the best of your ability. If you can't - well, don't announce it to the world - quietly go on your way.

Every country must have government - Somalia was a great example of what happens when you don't. The world has many forms of government to choose from. Its all secular. I'm thankful for it, but there are better things to put my trust in.

That's why we also have a mind and reason. If a government is oppresive, and goes so far as to murdering its citizens, people will flee or eventually it will fall - they will turn and fight. Watch the video of Romania when the Dictators, the Coscesceus(sic) were on the balcony giving a speech to the masses and the expressions on their faces when they realized the people had turned in the public square and the military would not protect them. Their execution is still watched today.

The people will get the government they let happen. That simple.

Most people do not have the "resources" to change a government - except a vote.

Those who can make a difference are: Military high ups, or wealthy, educated, connected people who get themselves in positions of government - or, as we saw in Communist Russia - a peasant could join the party and have a relatively decent life - side with those in power.

You and I won't change it. A war will change it, but you and I won't.

Thus, live peaceably and quietly...

Look at the people who did survive when governments went crazy, like Mao's cultural revolution, Stalin's famines, Hitler's genocide, Pol Pot's genocide. Interesting things to learn from.

Broken Arrow, I did not say it was God who put tyrants in power - or necessarily any other leaders.

Simple, you submit and obey the government. Just as Christ said, render unto God what is his and unto Ceasar what is his.

The difference between then and the situation Paul wrote this to is this: Back then, they were livng under Ceasar and then Nero. You didn't want to speak out and call attention to yourself.

Today, we can speak out and call our leaders jerks in this country without getting sent to a gulag or a re-education gulag like Cuba, N. Korea, China, etc. Back then, you railed against your leaders you were cannon fodder for the lions in the Coleseum(sic), or maybe impaled on a spike lining Nero's highways.

I believe the advice Paul gave was good - live your life. Obey the law of the land. We are not called to use violence and to overthrow our government. Ephesians tells us our weapons are spiritual - prayer. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but spiritual powers, principalites, etc. and so on.

Most tyrants, I believe, had spiritual help getting them where they got. Hitler survived 34 assassination attempts. They aren't going anywhere until its time. And someone trying to take them out gets caught and dies terribly and accomplishes nothing.

Paul wrote that so believers could be safe. None of us have lived under the likes of a Nero, Caligula, Vlad the Impaler, Stalin, Hitler. If you do, Paul gives darn good advice. Lay low, live your life. God is Jehovah Jireh - God will provide. Trust in him - not whatever secular, earthly government you happen to live under - whether good or bad. Christians have lived under every kind of government known to man - and still had God's joy in their heart.

Oh, wait, you said "conservatism" - is this a trick political question? You don't want to hear from the progressives? How do they reconcile this? Maybe the political section is more appropriate?

Interface - I like that a lot.

I have a feeling our being encased in a physical body for now is a learning experience, a decision of who you would like to spend eternity with and preparation for what our true life in eternity with a new spiritual body, will be. This body is a means to an end.

The end: Our new celestial, spiritual body.

Just as humans faint, tremble, fall like one dead, etc. in the Bible when they see an angel, and the angel has to help them to their feet,

I believe if a human saw us in the new spiritual bodies we will someday have, they'd fall down and worship us as Gods.

Our new spiritual bodies will be that amazing.

Made to live in a new heaven and new earth where the laws as we know them no longer apply, made to dwell with the light rather than faint at even a glimpse of it.

So, we can mock - now.

I almost think, just as the angels in Gen 6 left their heavnely habitation and came down to earth and gave themselves a physical form, it was a temptation for them.

If you have always been a spiritual being, would it not be tempting to see how it feels to live in a sensate body? To feel things, to touch things? I have often thought that was one of the temptations Satan used to get 1/3 of the angels to rebel with him.

If we start in physical bodies, in eternity future, we would never be tempted to become physical again - been there, done that.

Who knows what comes in eternity? We don't.

I agree, I don't think we'll ever know exactly what it was that was lost. All we have are human words to try and describe it.

Regarding length of days, I sometimes think we fail to remember, God is in another "dimension" than we are.

Depending on what dimension one is operating out of, a day could equal a thousand years - or a billion years. If I could write on the screen here, I'd draw you a diagram illustrating this.

We know - ok, science does - there are at least 10 dimensions, and God operating outside of them gives an 11th place.

Gen. 1:1 shows "In the beginning God Created..." i.e., God was outside of our time and space when He created a universe and earth and a big bang. Science also knows there were probably 10 dimensions created in the first trillionth of a second and 4 "survived," so to speak, they believe there are 6, still curled up, like you'd curl up a piece of paper to make a straw, but they are trillions times tighter than that.

Thats why I always find statements like: our universe is "stretched out like a curtain" (Isaiah), or who can unseal the scroll in Revelation - there's some interesting pointers to something outside ourselves. Beginning with Gen. 1:1.

If you were standing on the earth, seeing the earth wrapped in an opaque darkness (which normally happens with a new planet), after a couple billion years you can now detect light, then a sun, then the moon is created (when Earth was hit with another planetary object the size of Mars - probably in what's now the Pacific), then you can now see stars and the darkness is gone and you can now establish day and night, now with light you can have basic amoeba life, then plants, then over billions of years flora and fauna, and so on. Gen 1:2 and so on - the first "creation" story, makes perfect sense if you are standing on the earth and watching things unfold.

How the earth lost its covering is an amazing scientific story in itself. We could have easily been a Venus - or Mars. Both planets are an example of what happens when things aren't fine tuned to the exquisite exactness that the earth needed to rid itself of the darkness - but yet, the processes that happened on earth - don't go too far. If they had, the result was Mars.

I won't go into why and how these things happened, but there are some good books by PH.ds. and astrophysists that explain exactly how it happens via science.

So, sometimes, when we read the Bible we need to take into account perspective. Is this narrative in Gen 1:2 and on, seen from being on the surface of the earth or outside of it? Outside of our time and space. I believe it is from the perspective of standing on the earth.

God's dealing with Moses, miracles, Christ walking on water and appearing as if by "magic" in a closed room - movement from one dimension to another - which is actually quite simple to do - if you have the ability to do it. We can see something outside of us, come into our territory - our dimension.

Science tells us how old the earth is. The Fossil record and geologic column tell us when things happened and were created and how long.

The first creation record in Genesis fits perfectly with the fossil and geologic record. The first creation record is a "how" and a chronological timeline that follows the fossil record, and to me, the second retelling, when things are repeated is more of a "why" discussion. You don't need a perfect chronological timeline.

So - who knows how long the days in Gen. 1 really were.

That's a very good point Jerry about creating.

I find it interesting that on the 7th day in Gen. 1, God rested from creating - and he's still resting - people tend to forget that.

I had been wondering a lot about the Fossil record - just millions of species had come and gone beginning about - oh, I forget, I think its 200million years ago that life first appeared (I am not a YE person). I had also wondered, why haven't we seen any new species since Adam was made? We should be, because the earth was a creation factory - according to the fossil record. Why did it stop?

Then I read somewhere - God is at rest from his creating. On the 7th day he rested and is still "resting" so to speak. There's a reason he was called Elohim - the Creator.

I think at the end of Rev. when he says, "Behold I make all things new" and the new heaven and earth are created - we will literally see him do it before our eyes - his rest will be over and no creature will ever "doubt" He is the one who creates all things.

Now, man does the creating - women give birth and another human is created, and, as you said, we build, make things do art, architecture, etc. - this is man's day to create. The creation drive is defintely a part of God's Image.

Its very interesting to ponder.

My opinion - just opinion here, is that possibly Adam wore his "image" or spirit on the outside of his body.

There was something about him that creatures, animals - when they saw him - they knew he was not just another another biped - not just one of them.

When God said, you shall die if you do this one thing, we know it wasn't Adam's body that died and it wasn't his soul - his nephesh - his breath life that died.

I think it was that "image" that died. I don't know what it looked like. But its loss was so horrific he tried to cover himself - tried to put something back on.

God was the root. Adam was a branch created and grown from the root. Adam chopped the branch off willfully. He fell. Or, he cut the umbilical cord to the womb - the nourisher.

I think that's why he was so comforted when God told him he would send a redeemer.

Only another new created branch - one who stayed connected to the root, could redeem him.

A fallen branch cannot redeem another fallen branch. Adam had to patiently wait for the creation of another branch by God - but what a hope! Adam would someday be reconnected to the root from whence he was created.

So, I tend to think that it was some sort of image/spirit that died.

That is why we, as body and nephish, we are given a "new creation" when we are born again. Somehow, we can reconnect with the root in part - not fully - yet.

Unless a new spirit is put in is, we are a fallen branch. We have no connection to a root.

When I think of the transfiguration of Christ in his body recorded in the gospels - I think that's somewhat what we will be like someday. Something in Christ's body came to the fore for all to see. I think that's possibly what Adam looked like, or something similar, in his perfected state before the fall.

I'll take a little stab on part of the question - re: the souls in heaven.

I have changed my mind, I do believe that when we die our "spirit" does go to be with the Lord.

I think there is a difference in Revelation - in the new administration which begins with Tribulation and Wrath, it is very interesting when it talks about the "souls" of them that were beheaded for not taking the mark of the Beast.

Today, we are told that we are sealed, or "marked" by the Holy Spirit. I find it interesting that the followers of Satan (the Beast - Satan incarnate) will have their own seal, mark, or, as I call it, a counterfeit image of God.

But, anyway, I also think, that after this "Age of Grace" is over, the Holy Spirit will have a different function as mankind enters into the Return of Christ and the Millenium period. I don't consider the Millenium era a "new" beginning, but I consider it the end of God's dealing with mankind - a time when all sin and unrighteousness shall be dealt with. It will be a time when Satan - finally - gets his wish to rule the earth and all mankind. It will be a time when the tares are finally sifted from the wheat. It will be a time when Israel repents and realizes who the Messiah was and is, it will be a time when the Gentiles rail against God with no one to restrain them. Before Christ returns, it will be a hell on earth.

I've digressed...

I believe, it will not be available to be "born again" in the Coming Lord's day as it is now. I believe the message has pretty much gotten over the world. There is the written word, prophets, apostles, etc. today, the Holy Spirit whose function now is to "convict" - or give every person a chance in their heart to decide if they want to know God and Christ, there are books, tapes, CDs, Internet, preachers, missionaries - especially with the internet - knowledge flows to the whole world - all can freely know today if they want - google it.

In the tribulation and wrath - the just will have no choice but to live by faith. They will be followers of those people God has sent to witness on the earth - the two witnesses, the 12,000 sealed from every Jewish tribe - the Word will be taught. The Word will be: Christ is the Messiah. Follow him. Remember, there will be only two groups then: Jew and Gentile. Gentile will be welcome to become followers of Messiah but there will be no Holy Spirit given internally to them, as we have now. I believe it will be more as it was in the OT - a spokesman for God has the Spirit upon them.

Many will heed and follow - probably some who have heard today but have chosen to reject, or put it off. But, the price of following Christ will be your life.

Grace is over. It is a new administration - the Lord's administration. Holiness will begin to reign and judge. Evil must be put away.

So, since I believe it will not be available to be born again in the tribulation, that's why you see the "souls" of them who were beheaded for Christ. They are the overcomers, the members of the 7 churches in the beginning of Rev., the "overcomers" who gave up their lives for Him, those who refused to worship Satan and take his mark. ..."to those who overcome..." These will now live and reign with him 1000 years.

Once the Tribulation and Wrath are over, God literally writes the law by the Spirit in Israel's hearts - in each individual heart. They lead and rule over the gentiles in the coming millenia. "A gentile will see a jew and 10 men will grab onto his hem and say, let me go with you, God is with you..." (Jeremiah - I believe - paraphrase, I don't have a Bible available right now) as Israel now is able to fulfill its long aborted, and awaited mission - to rule over the Gentiles and be a conduit of God's blessing to them and over the earth as promised to Abraham millenia ago.

So, I think "souls" may be accurate in that administration.

Ahh... Ok, I didn't realize Ann Arbor was a huge college town. Now it makes sense. Well, that wouldn't be so bad, they can get cheap housing and hang out.