Sunesis

If I were being forced to do this - I'd be ok with Fl, Ga, Tx - even Idaho - there's some lovely ski country out there. But Ann Arbor, Michigan???? The decaying rust belt?? I'd drop out. Why would they pick there?

For those who went WOW - didn't you hate it when you "believed" for a nice area like Fl, Arizona - somewhere different and nice to be sent, and you ended up getting sent to scum places like Baltimore, DC & 'burbs? And you watched with wistful envy your friends going to lovely places and you were sent back to the east coast where you grew up... I vowed never to go WOW again and, when leaders would ask, where would you like to go on assignment, I never told them because TWI leadership loved to play games. If you requested a place, they would send you to the total opposite.

"Godly" assignments my bu$t. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell...

Ann Arbor - bummer.

Teachme, I do not know about all of these things you're thinking about, but, I think God did work with other gentile peoples "not of this fold" to prepare them for the coming Messiah. So when they heard, they may have thought - oh, that's what I was looking for! but didn't know it at the time. They knew their myths, stories, Gods, philosophies. They didn't know what they were looking for, but they "knew" it when they saw it. Or heard it. Something clicked.

If you want an interesting read along this line, read "Augustine's Confessions." The "confessions" was his diary. Here was a 2nd century pagan, who was very involved in one of the greek "cults" with its own myth, rules, regulations, etc. Its interesting to read when the Holy Spirit started tugging on his heartstrings and he began to question and doubt his group, and how with his contact with some Christians and the Bishop Ambrose of Africa, Christ started making sense to him. The redeeming savior was not outside of his realm of possiblity and thought. His culture/beliefs/philosophy had prepared him for it. His conversion is an amazing story. He didn't know what it was, but kind of knew it when he heard it.

Its like the Supreme Court Judge, when they were trying an obscenity/pornography case in the '70s - was it free speech or not? Someone asked the Justice - how do you know if its obscene, how do you describe it? He said I don't - but I know it when I see it.

Thank you Jerry :) I appreciate your kind thoughts.

Teachme, you certainly have many thoughts :)

I think, if memory serves right, that the OT was translated into Greek because the Jews had been scattered. The Greek translation of the OT was called the Septuagent(sic), and was read and carried by many jews who did not speak Hebrew and lived nowhere near Jerusalem and spoke Greek. It was a blessing to them. In many ways, just like english is pretty much the "world" language, so greek was spoken in many places at that time.

If I remember my old college prof., there has always been the theory that Moses and Plato had some contact with each other, if not personally, than at least their ideas did. I don't think they knew each other, but ideas do spread.

As far as Alexander the Great - he wept because there were no more worlds for him to conquer. That's all I know about him.

I find it interesting that all societies and cultures, especially Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian, etc., had their "myths" of Gods come down from the heavens, who fought among themselves, and in many cultures would show the way to heaven (think, main pyramid in Egypt - follow Orion's star).

So, the amazing thing about Christ was, that for the first time in human history, in a certain time, space and place, a "god" (so to speak - I'm not getting into trinity or not here) actually invaded human history - actually came to earth from the heavens to take all who would believe - home. To redeem and restore them so they could dwell in a new place in a new body suitable for that new place (new heaven and new earth).

In other words: The Myth Became Real!

All peoples of the earth could now somehow relate and understand - no matter where they were from.

Thus, Paul could tell the Greek philosophers at Mars Hill: I will speak to you of the "Unknown God." Him I will declare unto you.

The framework over many centuries had been prepared.

Very interesting thoughts Teachme. I think Christ was inserted when he was because at that point, most of the "known" Gentile world, including Europe, Asia, because of the thoughts of Plato and others that had permeated culture in ways the people proably didn't even realize, they would be able to understand who Christ was in those terms.

As for Jewish thought, many "strangers and aliens" sojourned with Israel from their inception on and I feel many would have known about their beliefs, or others who didn't believe would have know about their "myths" (to an unbeliever it would have been myth).

But, I believe a lot of the ancient gentile beliefs and gods they worshipped were corruptions over time of what Noah knew and taught after the flood.

For example, the Cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life. They were still there up until the flood. Many people saw them. The creature with a head with 4 faces: man, bird, oxen (tame beast), lion (wild beast). Thus, in ancient pre-flood civilizations where the ruins still stand, and later ones after the flood that survive to this day, you see the gods they worshipped:

Human bodies with bird heads (seen in Egypt still to this day)

Human bodies with heads of rams or other animals.

Worship of cows (oxen).

All of these a corruption of the Cherubim what was seen in Eden by people living in the area and walking by.

What was the first thing Israel made when Moses went up to commune with God? The Golden Calf - and they worshipped it.

Why a cow? Corrupted stories/memories of the Cherubim.

Also, when Adam looked at the Cherubim he realized what he lost: Man's dominion over all and over the animal kingdom. What heartbreak it must have been for him.

That's why the prophecy of the coming redeemer/seed must have comforted him: Someday, he would be "Adam" again. He would be the image bearer of God. So would all of humanity. Humanity will be restored. That is part of Israel's Hope.

Now, we are a fallen race, a pale shadow of what once was.

Hello Teachme, how are you? :)

I did post on another thread regarding the Logos and why it was an important concept for a Greek/Roman person. I stated I believed it was not a coincidence in the time period in which Jesus was inserted in human history. I stated I believed the Gospel of John was written to people of the world showing who Jesus was. I believe it was aimed at a "gentile" because it explains many of the things said and done, and gives background on Jewish traditions and explanations, where a Jewish person reading would need no explanation. That's why there is a theory it is the "Gospel to the World" so to speak.

I also stated that in that time, to a Greek they would read and the Logos concept in this context would have a huge impact on someone. Then a person asked, how so? So, here's my answer. This is what I tend to believe Logos is and why it was a great choice to introduce an unbelieving Greek/Hellinistic person, to Christ.

Here goes:

First, some background:

Once upon a time, the Greeks broke away from mythology as their world view and turned to reason and evidence as their world view aided by various philosophers. Now, with this new world view in mind, they began a quest to find the underlying cause of the cosmos - this was "Logos." The underlying cause of the cosmos became the "Logos."

We also have Plato's thoughts (revelation?) of forms and ideas that says: things in the physical world are "forms" in the physical world, but the true substance, is in heaven - we are a form that is a manifestation of our "true human essence" which is heavenly, so to speak. We are not the "real" deal. We are not the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality is not this world - but the forms in the physical world reflect the reality of the Cosmos - God's world. For example, take my cat. He is here, I love him - but what is his true essence? What is the true "essence" of Cat? What is God's reality of "Cat"? If I saw "cat essence" in heaven - the true reality - I would be blown away. Cats in the physical realm are copies, or forms, of the original, true, heavenly reality.

Just as God said, "let us make man in our image" our true essence is heavenly.

Heraclitus, around 500 bc defined logos as "God's reason."

Philo's use of logos around 25 bc included references to Plato's world of Forms, the mind of God.

Logos was the ultimate underlying form, essence, or reason of the cosmos. It is what holds everything together.

Look at it this way: God is a mind, an idea. Out from him, like a telescope, comes Logos - the unifying principle of everything, but it is manifest - it is the idea, the mind of God come to life - a manifestation. It created the heaven and earth - it carried out God's purposes and ideas in the physical realm. You could call the Logos, the Jehovah of the OT if you wanted.

Out from this, like the telescope, comes the Holy Spirit that witnesses and testifies to us, those things.

So, now, back to John 1. No problem, we read, in the beginning was God and the Logos was with him... blah, blah, blah - everyone knows that John. We continue: blah, blah... AND THE LOGOS BECAME FLESH - WHOA! Stop! Hold it!!!! Does.Not.Compute!!!! I need to think!!!...

Now you are telling me that the Logos, the manifestation of the mind of the universe (God), the ultimate, underlying Form (essence) of the Cosmos has now been revealed!!! To us!!! A special revelation of God appearing as: the divine, promised savior clothed in human form. Whoa!!! Much to think about here - let's read on and see what this John guy has to say... "You shall call his name 'Emanuel' - God with us"...

Think, "a body thou hast prepared me" Psalms - prophecy of the coming Savior.

What a mindblower - or today, we'd say: WTF??????

So, sorry for the length, I hope this answered your question and made a little bit of sense.

I think God is so much bigger than we think. :)

Linda Z - always good to see you. I agree very much.

Penworks, no reason for you to bow out. Just because you have a different take and belief/nonbelief anymore. People here have always enjoyed your insightful input, especicially from one who was there in the beginning.

I'm sure you've noticed, but there are all sorts of beliefs here. I have always found it interesting to see where people have gone over the years. I also realize now, that many people never did believe while in TWI and have stated so here. My question then to those who didn't is: How did one stand it? Especially those who went in the corps? What was one looking for? Was it a ground floor opportunity, like I think some offshoot leaders saw it as, and its the only way they know to keep the feel good power and respect coming? What kept someone who didn't believe in TWI - when it was hard enough for those who did. I sometimes think it was massive peer pressure, people with father issues who saw in VP someone who had answers. People wanted to be "right." People wanted power - a myriad of things.

I enjoy your input now and what led you to say - that's it, it never was true - especially after having been in the research dept.

I think because you don't think there was a revival and I do, is a reason to walk. You have doubts - great - so do a lot of other people.

He is a cutie :) Is he married? I wonder if he's been taught by those older men, who seem to be the real "puppet masters" behind young VP, that's he's spiritual enough to handle certain things...

Sad if this is true.

Boy, TWI did use Acts like a handbook for modern day TWI living, didn't they? They took a time, place, space and context and applied it to us.

I've always thought though, that this record in Acts was kind of like what happened to us, as I do believe the Revival of God in the 60s-early '70s was a true movement of God. I have always wondered, what happened to kill it, so to speak - our movement that was going strong? I remember when, all of a sudden, from out of nowhere, the edict came down - those of us from Larchmont couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, we now had to go to twig in Larchmont and I didn't like the twig leader - a dorky kid in my grade in high school - I didn't want to go to his twig... then a couple of other things came down and I started drifting away. And I think of this record:

Paul and Barnabbas, up in Antioch, having a good time, thouands of gentiles are getting born again, then some jewish guys (not leadership) come up from Jerusalem (about 500 miles to the south - so they really had to put forth a little effort to get to Antioch) and say, hey - you know, unless you keep the law and follow Moses, and do this and that, you really aren't born again.

So, instead of saying - oh, ok - the Antioch believers got po'ed and Paul and Barnabas set off to Jerusalem and confront the leaders there, who had no idea anyone had done this - they didn't send anyone. In other words - Jerusalem - back off. God is working how he sees fit with the Gentiles.

What was happening here was a change - from the law, to revelation/situational theology with Christ as head directing people. This was a major shift in how people now approached God. From law to revelation. From: Here's a law for this situation to - how would God have us act in this situation? Each situation is different.

I guess my point is - we just grew and grew. We didn't need anyone to tell us who the "leader" was. People's ministries became pretty obvious.

We were like a living organism, a body with the head leading us.

How much bigger would this movement have been if TWI HQ had just stayed out - left us alone. If when the "edicts" came down, we said - back off!

In the early days in California - the young men who started the awakening/movement were coopted by older men who used these young men to build their churches. Lonnie Frisbee was coopted by - I forget - it was either Wise or Martin - and basically built their ministies and churches for them. Dopp and Heefner - coopted by VP.

What would have happened if it had just flowed without the regs, rules, edicts, and being coopted?

Why is there a movement and someone always has to "organize" it? I don't read that in Acts. It seems people got born again, hung out, ate, fellowshipped with each other and lived their lives. I don't see there was a meeting schedule, advance meetings, retreats, days in the word - and on and on.

I think maybe TWI wasn't so good at understanding what it did say.

Thank you Socks!! I always love your contributions. You have much wisdom -I have always thought that.

Twinky, I did not forget you. Your question made me think - how do I explain this? I opened my mouth and now I'm called on it :) Socks is a hard act to follow :), but here goes.

First, some background:

Once upon a time, the Greeks broke away from mythology as their world view and turned to reason and evidence as their world view aided by various philosophers. Now, with this new world view in mind, they began a quest to find the underlying cause of the cosmos - this was "Logos." The underlying cause of the cosmos became the "Logos."

We also have Plato's thoughts (revelation?) of forms and ideas that says: things in the physical world are "forms" in the physical world, but the true substance, is in heaven - we are a form that is a manifestation of our "true human essence" which is heavenly, so to speak. We are not the "real" deal. We are not the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality is not this world - but the forms in the physical world reflect the reality of the Cosmos - God's world. For example, take my cat. He is here, I love him - but what is his true essence? What is the true "essence" of Cat? What is God's reality of "Cat"? If I saw "cat essence" in heaven - the true reality - I would be blown away. Cats in the physical realm are copies, or forms, of the original, true, heavenly reality.

Just as God said, "let us make man in our image" our true essence is heavenly.

Heraclitus, around 500 bc defined logos as "God's reason."

Philo's use of logos around 25 bc included references to Plato's world of Forms, the mind of God.

Logos was the ultimate underlying form, essence, or reason of the cosmos. It is what holds everything together.

Look at it this way: God is a mind, an idea. Out from him, like a telescope, comes Logos - the unifying principle of everything, but it is manifest - it is the idea, the mind of God come to life - a manifestation. It created the heaven and earth - it carried out God's purposes and ideas in the physical realm. You could call the Logos, the Jehovah of the OT if you wanted.

Out from this, like the telescope, comes the Holy Spirit that witnesses and testifies to us, those things.

So, now, back to John 1. No problem, we read, in the beginning was God and the Logos was with him... blah, blah, blah - everyone knows that John. We continue: blah, blah... AND THE LOGOS BECAME FLESH - WHOA! Stop! Hold it!!!! Does.Not.Compute!!!! I need to think!!!...

Now you are telling me that the Logos, the manifestation of the mind of the universe (God), the ultimate, underlying Form (essence) of the Cosmos has now been revealed!!! To us!!! A special revelation of God appearing as: the divine, promised savior clothed in human form. Whoa!!! Much to think about here - let's read on and see what this John guy has to say... "You shall call his name 'Emanuel' - God with us"...

Think, "a body thou hast prepared me" Psalms - prophecy of the coming Savior.

What a mindblower - or today, we'd say: WTF??????

So, sorry for the length Twinky, I hope this answered your question and made a little bit of sense.

I think God is so much bigger than we think. :)

Well, I will respectfully disagree here about John 1 and the Gospel of John in general.

There is a theory, which I tend to agree with, that John was written for Greek Gentiles and Gentiles (i.e., not jewish) throughout the world today. Why? Because all over that Gospel John is always explaining Jewish customs and traditions, which would not need explaining if you were Jewish. He is always giving jewish "background" for a reader who knows nothing of Jewish customs/beliefs/traditions.

It has been said the John is the Gospel to the World. Those who have never read the Bible, many are inspired to read John. Of course, I wouldn't be a immersing someone who wanted to learn about God/Christ in the Greek language just yet. A word here, a word there, sure.

It is also thought to be written for Gentiles, or "Abraham's seed" because of the Greek terminology, such as words and concepts like "Logos." If you were a Greek Gentile reading that, it would have given you some serious food for thought.

I believe there is a reason in time, why Christ was inserted in human history when he was - it was not random coincidence. Just as a Gentile had no part of the law, and the Jewish law wasn't the "prism" through which much of the Gentile world view was shaped, yet, the Gentile philosophical world view would have understood John - especially the first few verses regarding the Logos.

If we are going to get into a doctrinal you're a numbnutz if you believe/disbelieve the trinitarian references in the first few verses, maybe this should go to doctrinal.

But, whatever your belief in that area, to me John is an introductory and explanatory gospel for a gentile or someone who has never heard, or knows nothing of Jesus but would like to. Millions of people have gotten born again reading John. Whether one decides to go further that's up to them, but I have recommended John to people.

John shows Jesus as the Son of God. And many have seen and been given understanding regarding who Christ is from John.

I think there's more to it than what we see at first glance.

In the beginning - Genesis - The tree of life in the garden, by the river of water.

Eat and you will be healed and live forever.

At the end - Revelation - to all people - come, eat, drink of the water - live forever.

It heals.

To Israel: The manna - from heaven - eat and you will live.

Christ - I belive was the tree of life in the flesh - eat of me, drink of me.

Picture a CAT scan - the dye is injected - all the veins light up - you can see the pathways of life.

Communion - I am the tree of life. Eat of me for healing, drink of me for life and enlightenment.

Those who have taken communion - God looks down and sees those who are his - out of mankind, he sees the pathways of life amongst the people - like a CAT scan he sees the threads and veins amongst humanity - those who are his.

Its bigger then we think. It is healing.

That's why, I think, when Paul said those who take it NOT discerning the Lord's body are sick and die.

Mock if you like.

Those who discern - it is eating of the tree of life in the here and now. It is medicinal.

This is just my humble opinion. YMMV.

Al - LOL! Why that's VP's grandson, the puppet of JP, McMullen and J. Wilson - those old guys are really the ones calling the shots.

Looking at the photos of their day - OMG. Its like stepping back into a time warp - or better yet, a nightmare.

They have totally cloned the corps program.

We all smiled too when they took pics of us in-res doing our corps program like these kids are doing.

But you just want to shake these kids and say, listen to someone who's been there done that.

But, if they are as idealistic as we were - it would be mostly a waste of time.

I looked at that site, the pics, video and thought... oh you poor kids...

Suckers - a new generation falling for the same old thing in a new package.

What makes young VP qualified to run anything? All he does is smile. Well, that's easy to do when you're the King. He's smiling all the way to the bank.

Yup, and the basement, where one of my work departments was. I'd go there in the evening to finish up and being the only one down there, it was so creepy, I quit going. Like you were being watched by - something...

Never did make it up to the attic.

There was something hinky about that place.

I was sent there as corps one winter. Was it just me? But I always found that place creepy - it had a feel about it, as if the souls of the sick people were still lingering - weird way to put it. But the place just felt sick and creepy to me. I was so glad to get out of there.

Glad you liked it Bow! This one really does get a reaction with the ladies :)

Nothing wrong with a little beefcake :)

They are an unbelievably legalistic group - there is no love for anyone. If you are not doing every "jot and title" of "Da Word" (forget about that guy named Jesus - who cares about him when we have "Da Word" to dissect) and if your "believing" is not up there, and if you are not prosperous (if you were believing you would be) and if you do not participate in groupthink - they literally want nothing to do with you. You are not believing enough and are bringing them down.

They were just amazingly legalistic - NT modern day Pharisees. And, nasty when they wanna be. I watched them do some amazingly hurtful things to other believers. Even though I was M&A'ed - I did call their leadership up and let them know what they had done to the person was terribly wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, CG and anything he teaches is boring - and why is that? Because they are spiritually dry and empty. Legalism dries you up after awhile. They are prunes.

I read all of Watchman Nee's books years ago on staff at TWI. There was a Christian Bookstore in Celina I'd drive to.

I don't think anyone really picked up on him, he was occasionally mentioned, but his writings have a lot to do with Christ and humility. Humility didn't fit too well in the TWI scheme of things, so after awhile, you never heard him spoken of. Interesting that the Chinese culture was so apathetic - the people were just beaten down and dead. Nee got upset, because even when Chinese were being lined up to be executed by the Japanese during their invasion in the late '30s, and beheaded by them, or used for live bayonent practice, the chinese would just stand there in line like sheep and say nothing. He was trying terribly to wake them up.

Interesting the different characteristics of different cultures and the difference in messages those prophets and apostles carried to the people.

Linda - yes, SM has been from day one, since the who are you gonna follow letter by LCM a Geerite - I mean hardcore. Sold out. For years. I was literally M&Aed by the NYC and NY corps because I wouldn't follow VF (who was Geer's follower) or Geer. SM has run a small group of NYC people who follow him for years.

Also, for awhile EW was pretty enamoured of him. She lived near my brother in CT and ended up moving up there to take care of her elderly mother who passed away a few years ago. She had pretty much gotten out of it by then I believe.

Tom, where are you getting these books? I think VP took a lot from Kenyon - one of the Christian forerunner/practitioner of the name it and claim it philosophy where you visualize and it must come to pass.

This is passed off today in the secular realm as the book "The Secret" - same "laws of believing" or magic of believing, etc. but packaged differently for the intended audience.

Thanks Groucho!! I too have wondered if VP was ever born again. We shall never know, but - by their fruits you shall know them...

I have always wondered - at this point he can't have that many followers left - does he? I would have thought it would have died of natural attrition as TWI is doing.

Now, I do know that his long time supporter S&*e M*ll&r has moved from Manhattan to CT (a very expensive, wealthy area in CT) to run the Geerites up there. Did the other members follow from Manhattan? Do they actually make that much money to live in that section of CT??

I have heard its expensive to buy a license to run his class - are there still that many people running it?

I just think, at this point, he can't be making a lot of money off it. His parents from Rye had money - I wonder if his lovely Maine home is not a family home all paid for.

But, how many people in this little "fringe" offshoot of TWI are left after all these years?

Is El*(na Wh*()ts*de still a big fan? The He**(nys?

You know, I feel VP didn't really believe the Bible and I don't believe he ever in his life had an original thought about it. All of his classes, books, characters (Johnny Jump up, etc.), and even incidents were taken from someone else. Remember, we didn't have internet back then and I think he had no idea how he would be found out in the future.

I think he read and memorized a lot - he learned his lines, so to speak, as an actor would - so he could play the "preacher/teacher part" beloved by the gullible little kiddies as he laughed all the way to the bank on whatever his most recent Harley was.

So, that book has some topics I've heard VP touch on - like the Deborah section.

You know, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he took things out of there for teachings. People used to ooh and ahhh about his "knowledge" - today, its all out there to find if you dig hard enough.

As I said, that looks like it would have been a good book for him to use.

Ok, this one's for the ladies. I love Bon Jovi. I recently ran across this. One of their fabulous, more recent songs has very famous actors.

So, enjoy. If its too risque, please pull. But I think you ladies will like it - Brad Pitt, etc. :)

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Most people read for enjoyment - think, Bible as Literature class.

If someone doesn't believe it, yes, I think studying it scholastically would be pointless. Why study?

There would be so many more interestng things to spend your time studying or reading.

If you believed it, then to that person, it would be an interesting, maybe fascinating topic.

Its like, I don't believe in Confusianism (sic). Its nice to read a book on it, but why would I spend my life studying it? It would be a waste of time and there would be much better things to study - for me.

I guess its all relative.

I think that's where the Holy Spirit comes in. I just read, if he wants to enlighten me on something (ever had one of those - OMG - I see it now - moments that happen just out of the blue and almost knock you off your chair? That's him :)) go for it, if not, I read for enjoyment. It was after years of just reading I realized its essence is prophecy.