Sunesis

With all due respect Spectrum, who cares when this thread will end? Most people here have enjoyed reading the posts and having their say. Sure, threads meander here, there, everywhere. Its the Body of Christ talking amongst itself freely. This freedom was pretty much squelched in TWI. This thread will end when it ends and not until. We do not need a self-appointed arbitrator to tell us its time to end it now.

Have a great day!

I'm not going to address whether people think they are inspired, inerrant or whatever, people will have their own opinion. I will just address what I think about the order of the NT cannon. Its just something I've kind of come up with over the years. Its also, really kind of simple.

I look at the Book of Acts. Every single Book in the NT fits within the framework and timeline of Acts - except the Pauline "prison epistles."

So, to me, Acts is a timeline. Christ was at the door ready to return, the Kingdom he would usher in was at hand.

So, I look at the chronological timeline of Acts and the chronological order of the NT. For instance, we read about the Corinthians in Acts, people mentioned by name. We look at the Book of I Cor. and its written the same time and mentions the same people.

So, on the Acts timeline, I paste Corinthians on there.

Then, hey, mission to the Galations in Acts, put the Book of Galations on the Acts timeline there.

And so on.

To me, the NT books are appendages to Acts. They give more detail as to what was going on.

Then, you hit Acts 28:28. Israel is set aside. Their rejection of their Redeemer, King and Kingdom is complete. its over for the time being.

So, now you have the Pauline "prison epistles" written AFTER the Book of Acts.

As the above poster said, there is a "new" revelation given to Paul.

In the "Acts Epistles" as I like to call them, the ones that are in the Acts Chronological timeline - you do see Paul quote loads of OT scripture. Why? Because this was Israel's time and Israel's hope - he and the 12 Apostles were commissioned with opening the eyes of Israel and Gentiles were welcome to join in and become joint-heirs with Israel. But, it was still about Israel's Hope.

Remember, Paul did not even receive revelation about the "One New Man" being created to abide in the Heavenlies during the time of the Book of Acts. It was revealed AFTER Acts 28:28. Thus, he was not teaching this in the Acts period because it had not yet been revealed. It was only after Israel's rejection, that later "Plan B" so to speak was revealed.

That's why, you are correct. In Paul's epistles written in the years after the close of Acts (Eph., Col., Phil., I & II Tim., Titus, Philemon - the "prison epistles") there is virtually no mention of the OT prophecies and prophets - why? Because Paul's revelation regarding new "heavenly citizens" came after the Book of Acts. This new heavenly population was a mystery "kept secret/hidden from before the foundation of the world." No one knew. Israel is in abeyance and Paul's mission is now to the Gentiles. Here Paul teaches those who believe will have a dwelling literally in the heavens. Whoa! That's not in the OT.

Our blessings will be enjoyed - in the Heavenlies. Just as Israel's blessings will be enjoyed on the earth, we will literally have to be in the heavenlies to enjoy our blessings, as that is where our blessings are laid up in store for us - in the heavenlies.

This teaching, this new revelation which is in Eph. was mindblowing to some and, since it could not be proved from the OT (because it wasn't there), many people turned away from him.

Now, you also have the Book of Revelation which some think was written later after the Acts period, or some earlier - during the Acts period. I almost tend to think earlier, since Revelation is Israel's Hope - the return of the King in Glory and the establishment of His Kingdom on earth which was what they were looking for and talked about during Acts and the Epistles written during that period.

I see the prison epistles as a parenthesis. If Israel had accepted the Apostles preaching their King would have returned and they would have stepped directly into the Book of Revelation - those events would have started.

So, to me, Acts is the clothesline so to speak, and the NT books hang off of it in nice chronological precision, and enhance Acts with more detail - with the exception of Paul's Prison Epistles - they are after and beyond to a different group. And Revelation, as I said, I'm not sure where that one should be, but it is fascinating reading.

You asked, I thought it was a serious question. Ok, no more preaching.

Well, we do have over 30,000 Christian denominations, so I don't think you're going to see all Christians agreeing. I imagine that's why it is more important to God that we keep the unity of the Spirit - not the flesh. Sometimes I gotta admire the Catholic Church - they may not agree but after 1800 years or so - its still one church plugging along.

Irish eyes, basically, the Bible has three divisions of people - Jew, Gentile, One Body (Church - age of grace). I was talking about "believers." Paul was sent to the Gentiles. The Gentiles of the world were blessed through Abraham.

That's why Romans is so amazing. The Jews said - we are God's chosen and righteous under the law. They had been under the law for so long, they had forgotten that Abraham was called, made righteous and justified by faith a few hundred years before the law - i.e., when he was a gentile. So Paul in Romans says, I know this is hard for my fellow Jews to believe, but the Gentiles are now "grafted in." They can share fully in your Hope. Remember Abe? All is takes is simple faith - he was made righteous because he believed - not by the Law. Gentiles do not have to do the law to be righteous.

Concerning "unbelievers" - here's the bottom line for me. We know, there is coming one day, a NEW Heaven and a New earth. It will be a brand new habitat. Maybe the laws of physics will be different - who knows, but it will be different. That's been the whole message of the Bible - a new Kingdom is coming, that's what Jesus preached and the Apostles. Those who live then will need a new body designed for this new place. When someone is born again he is sealed with spirit - he will have that eternal, immortal, different, changed, glorious new body. There will be no sin. God is Holy. He sent his Son to make us worthy. An "unbeliever", like a vegetarian who is repulsed by meat, is repulsed by God.

For all people, eventually, a choice needs to be made - spend eternity with God - or no. Many will choose - no. Is that unfair of God? No. Why? because it would be unfair of Him to force that person to believe and love him. To force one to believe is coercion and grossly unfair and oversteps a man's free will. Will God "torture" them? No, God does not torture. But, all will see his glory. Every knee shall bow (whether they like Him or not).

The only remorse one will have, who freely choose not to be with God for eternity, will be gnashing of teeth after they have seen glory - despair for what could have been, for what was rejected, for what was deliberately missed out on.

I haven't forgotten your question in doctrinal Robert, its a big topic, I need to find you a couple of good links. But, for me, I will explain.

There is a phrase God uses a lot: Foundation of the World. It his dividing line so to speak, like bc/ad is for us on earth - before Christ, after Christ. Foundation of the World literally means "overthrow of the cosmos (Kosmos in greek). It is his dividing line for things that happened before, and things that happened later.

For God, Gen. 1:1 and before - here creation had not fallen, angels hadn't fallen, all is still perfect. This is "before the Foundation of the World." From Gen 1:2 forward, after destruction, things have fallen, the earth is restored again and made habitable for man, that is "from" or "since" the Foundation of the World.

Now, we can see certain groups of believers called in the Bible, from which period God purposed them, when they were called and where their eternal life will be.

There are only 2 groups, or beings called from "before" the Foundation of the World. Christ, and us - those of us living in the age of Grace. God purposed us in eternity - Gen. 1:1 and before.

Israel was called "from" or since the Foundation of the World - from Gen. 1:2 on. They will inherit the earth someday.

Then you have the faithful "remnant" of Israel, like Abraham who looked for a heavenly city, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews talks about these people and there are others. This Heavenly Jerusalem will descend to earth from heaven someday and it will be the abode of the Jews who really believed - they didn't just rest on their laurels because they were God's chosen. I consider this group, the "Bride" - some will disagree and say the church today is the "Bride."

Anyway. We see:

3 groups called in the Bible: Jew, Bride, Church which is the one body, the new man in the age of grace.

2 different time callings: Christ and Church of age of Grace - before the Foundation of the World. Israel and remnant - since or From the foundation of the World.

3 different spheres for eternity for each group: Jew - land, earth. Bride (faithful remant) - heavenly Jerusalem. One body - Heavenly places.

So, each group has a different calling in time, a different hope, and a different abode for eternity. Its an interesting study.

Ex-cath. I would never, ever put Paul above Christ - just sayin' :) All I'm saying is Israel rejected their Messiah. God reveals "Plan B" to Paul (thank God, that God had one - that's why its grace - he didn't have to - he could have let mankind stew in their own juices as they and the world "lies in the arms of the wicked one"). Its like God took a bunch of mangy mutts, bathed them and washed them (with Christ's blood), fluffed us up, clothed us, and said - "Come In" Welcome to my home. Whoa! That's grace. Its like, have you ever taken in a stray animal? You open the door for them to come in and they are like, really? I can come in? I can hasz cookie? (just kidding on that one). But, they are so grateful, someone allowed them in. Someone took them in. Grace. I believe in this day and age, one of the Holy Spirits functions is to give each individual the opportunity to believe. I believe every human is gently called, but not all respond. You responded :)

Irish, it is about community! The One Body, the Unity of the Spirit (note its regarding spirit - I don't think God expects unity of politics, sports, liking the same things - we are all individuals). TWI failed in this aspect - we were all expected to think in lockstep. "Renewed mind" was what was used to beat this into us.

Awesome post Geisha.

I think the Apostle Paul is important for several reasons. But first, a little background to explain why I think so.

Remember, the 12 Apostles had been with Jesus on earth. They were sent to the Jewish people. Their message was "repent, the Kingdom of heaven come to earth is at hand. You crucified the Messiah, but he is still ready to come back."

Remember, all Israel needs to repent and call on the Messiah for him to come back. If Israel had repented, we would have skipped over our current age of grace and gone on to Revelation - Christ would have come back as King. Things would be very different today.

Israel did not believe. Now what? Who would have thunk Israel would have rejected the Messiah? All through Acts, Pauls Hope is Israel's Hope, as he states in Acts 26. He taught nothing other than "what the law and the prophets say." "I am in chains for the Hope of Israel." That's why, all of his epistles up through Acts 28 are loaded with OT scripture - he is able to show people that this was all prophesised. Read Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Thes., James, Jude, etc. - they believed the return was immanent and they would see it in their lifetime. That's why Peter had to address - hey, where is his coming? Its been years now. People were starting to wonder (I and II Peter).

But, Israel refused to believe - now what?

Now, Paul is commissioned to go to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28). Starting with Ephesians you can see something has happened, there has been a change.

Paul, as he says in his own words, received a revelation from the risen, heavenly Christ. What was this great revelation?

It was: God will take a people and house them with Him and His Son in Heaven for eternity - he will make a "new creation" a creation never seen. A people who will believe - even though they never saw. God will take a people for Heaven - above the heavenlies.

This is why in the prison epistles (Eph., Col, Phil., Timothy, Titus & Philemon) virtually no OT scripture is quoted. Why?

Because this was Paul's revelation, shown to him by the risen Christ kept secret from before the Foundation of the World. This revelation is not in the OT, nor was it ever prophesised. Thus, he can't prove it. He cannot "prove" this new revelation. We just have to believe him and learn about it in his prison epistles.

Why did all asia turn away from him at the end? Because for Jewish Christians - it was nonsense, Paul could not prove this out of the OT, and it was ludicrous for them to think God would take gentiles (aliens, strangers and with no hope in the world), and give them this amazing grace and mercy - who ever heard of a people in heaven for eternity???? He's crazy.

Maybe Paul was, maybe he wasn't. Our heavenly citizenship is our Hope - the Hope of the new creation. Our hope is not land, and a kingdom on earth.

So the Christian now has a choice - believe what Paul said in his prison epistles, or no. Its like the movie the Matrix - here's a blue pill, here's the red pill. Do you want to take the pill and go further (i.e., believe Paul's revelation) or no?

Many people do not believe Paul's revelation. Fine. To me, this age of grace was a secret from before the foundation of the world. It is the cherry on top, it is the tip of the pyramid put into place - it is the fullness of God's revelation.

But, Paul couldn't "prove" it with scripture from the OT. Thus, all turned away. As many have done today. And as many Christians have appropriated Israel's Hope for themselves.

So, I think Paul was an important guy, and I believe his wacky revelation and think its important for other Christians to. "Be it unto you according to your believing." I really do not look at heaven as one large arena we'll all be herded into for eternity. I believe there are different places. If you truly, truly believe you are not a citizen of heaven (i.e., do not believe Paul's revelation), well, maybe you will enjoy Israel's hope here on earth.

I think, just as Abraham believed and it was counted unto him for righteouness when God promised his seed would populate the earth, I think when Paul believed the revelation he was given, it was counted to him for righteouness and he was the first Citizen of Heaven. He is our apostle of this new revelation - the mystery. I choose to take the pill and explore the heavenlies someday.

"A cow. . . or a God who parts the Red Sea. . . . it is all the same" They went with the cow. - LOL!!!! I love that - too funny.

No problem RobertErasmus. I do very much enjoy your sharings. But I do like the doctrinal section here and don't want anyone to be intimidated to say what they think. Of course there are going to be disagreements. The doctrinal section here to me is simply the Body of Christ talking among itself. And its lovely. Its also something we never could have done in TWI because we were all in lockstep to VPs doctrine.

I find it very interesting where people's spiritual quests have taken them after TWI and how their view of the Bible has evolved. I think God works with us in different ways. Yes, I know exactly what my view of the Bible is called and trust me, I didn't arrive there overnight, it was more like decades - but I see it in everything I read in the Bible - to me - it is obvious. To others - something else is obvious.

As I said, we are the Body of Christ talking among ourselves, and I love it.

Well, Mr. RobertErasmus, from my study, I do not believe tongues today is what it was then. You can call my opinion "poppycock" all you want, but you have just lowered yourself to me. If you can't speak and have intelligent discussion here on doctrinal without insults, so be it. I'll just skip over your "poppycock" posts in the future.

For others: The Disciples were commanded by Jesus to spread the news of the coming Kingdom to the world. Thus, they believed he was coming back shortly, as evidenced by their asking him in his resurrection body, will you restore the Kingdom now? i.e., ok, is it coming now?

He sent them out - their "Great Commission". In order to witness to the world in a short time (because they believed the Kingdom was coming shortly, and it would have if Israel had repented and believed as Peter instructed - it was literally "at hand"), they needed to be able to speak other peoples' languages - which they did at pentecost and during the Book of Acts. I believe the manifestation of interpretation was when they were preaching to people via tongues, in their language, and there were others standing near who didn't understand, thus, interpretation was needed. For example, me and my friends speak english. One of my friends is speaking to a group that doesn't speak english via tongues, that non-english group understands and is getting blessed, but me and my english speaking friends have no clue what's being said - thus, someone needs to interpret.

We live in an age of grace that was not prophesied about or spoken of in the OT. We as believers are not called to the earthly Kingdom that is to come, nor to the City - the Heavenly Jerusalem that will descend from heaven to earth. We are called, in the age of grace, to live in the "heavenlies."

I believe tongues - as it was practiced in Acts - is not the same as what we were taught by VP. We are not commissioned to preach the coming kingdom as it is now held in abayance since Israel rejected their Messiah.

I also believe the Holy Spirit has a different "function" in this administration than the last and the one to come.

Just my "poppycock."

Tom, I believe the "Jesus Movement" for our generation of the '60s and 70s was a true "revival" of God so to speak. Yes, we did see miracles. I believe, like Geisha pointed out, they were by God's grace and "signs" for us - God revealed himself to us as God. Why was this important? Why did he need to do this? Because our country was in a real doldrums spiritually, churches were losing members and the occult, devil worhip (Son of Sam, Manson, hippie, Leary, drugs, free sex, tune in, turn on, drop out, influx of eastern religions - general psychedelia), and just, not very good things spiritually were on the ascendency (only it was called, the Age of Aquarius) and it was everywhere and kids were following the pied pipers the devil was sending them. God needed at that time to show to us kids that he was greater than he who runs the world. And, it seems these miracles only lasted a very short time. Most of the time, as time went on, we wondered where they were, we had heard tales of things happening, but they kind of only happened to a few. As we grew in the Word, they seemed to subside. That's why VP would have healing services and not many "big" miracles happened, excuses for him were made, and people were disappointed.

Yet, we chalked it up to, there's something wrong with us and our believing if we aren't seeing the same results as those in Acts. There must be something wrong with our walk, we are not spiritual enough. So we tried even harder. No one told us, hey, its not your fault - you're trying to live in a time that is in abayance - the wrong administration. I think that would have taken alot of weight off of our shoulders instead of trying to manifest that which was for Israel. We appropriated the wrong administration to ourselves.

I know we wanted to walk as Acts believers and VP encouraged it, but I think the reason we did not see the amazing amount of everday signs the Jews saw which were confirming the Kingdom, was because this is a different time - we are in the age of Grace, the times of the Gentiles, with a different calling and a different Hope - a Heavenly home(we are the "new man" the "new creation" to spend eternity in the heavens) - not on earth.

Gen-2, I will give you my take on where the miracles went, because you are right - they are not in operation anymore.

I know many people will disagree with me, but I will tell you why I believe they are not in operation anymore. For a little background, I believe the Bible, as I've read it over the years, is essentially, a book of prophecy. It concerns a coming Redeemer (Christ), and a coming Kingdom on earth (the Kingdom - which for our purposes here, includes the New City Jerusalem which Abraham looked for - it will be part of this Kingdom). Ok, so:

1. The OT prophesies Messiah will come.

2. Gospels - Messiah arrives. His ministry is to the JEWS ONLY. This is important. He does miracles - which are signs to Israel. They show and prove that he is the prophesised Messiah. Also, here comes another important part:

3. Messiah/Jesus preaches what? He preaches to the Jews: The Kingdom is at hand, all is ready. Believe on me (note: in the OT, for the Kingdom to arrive, all Israel must turn to the Messiah and he will bring in the Kingdom). So - its here!

4. Jesus is rejected and killed by his people.

5. But, he has 12 Apostles who were commissioned to preach Jesus - to the Jew first.

6. Acts: Peter at pentecost says "repent - the Kingdom is at hand." The Apostles preaching was to Israel. Peter quotes Joel - a prophecy to Israel.

If you continue to read Acts, those who believed had the Holy spirit in them. They did signs and miracles.

Why? Because they were signs that the Kingdom was at hand. Signs again to Israel. They were a foretaste of what would be normal, daily life in the Kingdom walking in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The 12 Apostles were like, the last call at a bar, last chance - repent, Christ is standing on the right hand of God - the Kingdom is here. He will still return if you desire it!

So, Israel has had prophets, the Word, the Law, the King arrives, then finally - the Apostles.

After all this they say - NO.

What happens? What is God's plan for if Israel should reject their Messiah and Kingdom?

Acts 28 - Paul now begins his ministry to the Gentiles. The Kingdom is not coming. To emphasize this, the Romans come destroy the Temple, Jews are scattered.

A new administration begins. All of Pauls NT writings: Romans, Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians were written BEFORE Acts 28. The Kingdom and signs were still being done, in fact they were so common, Paul has to tell them in Corinthians - whoa dudes, here's how to handle them! At this point believing Gentiles are also "grafted" into Israel's hope.

What was Israel's Hope? The Messiah and the Kingdom. In Acts 26 Paul still says, I preach nothing but the Hope of Israel. During Acts, Gentiles were, by grace, allowed to partake of this Hope.

So, how did Paul go, from healing people, to leaving Melitius at Trophimas sick, to Timothy being sickly, to a total lack of miracles? What happened, why did they stop and he wasn't healing people anymore?

Different administration - beginning in Acts 28:26, where the prophecy for the third time is cited: hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see, etc... I go to the Gentiles.

It was after the book of Acts, after Israel has rejected the final offer, in the prison Epistles (Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, I and II Timothy, Philemon and Titus) that Paul has a revelation from God - the cherry on top.

It is: God has called a people who will people heaven. In Ephesians we are told we have Power. We do not need the "signs" for Israel anymore since the prophetic clock has stopped and Christ is now building a "new man" - a "new creation." Whose home will be in the heavenlies. The believer's hope in this day and age is: Heaven. Our hope is not the earthly Kingdom - that is Israel's.

Once the "days of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, in Revelation God will then deal again with Israel and Gentile - for the final time. This time Israel will all call upon the Lord.

I believe one of the reasons that later "all Asia" turned away from Paul was because they thought this new revelation was nuts. And, because it was new and had been kept secret - Paul could not prove it out of scripture. There is no OT prophecy of God taking a Gentile people to abide with him in Heaven. Boy, that sounded nuts. So, they turned away.

That's a nutshell, but you are right. The manifestations are not here anymore. They will be when Israel finally does repent and they enter into the Kingdom on Earth.

We do have Holy Spirit, Power, which functions differently to us in this age of Grace, of which I could speak more on, but not here. That is an amazing study to do some other time.

Ok, that's my take. I'm quite happy having a personal relationship with my Christ :)

Geisha - LOL!!! It does take awhile!

Jeff, you're right. I can't blame people. When I left TWI, I put it down and didn't touch or look at it for a couple of years.

There's a word for what we became: Bibliophiles - those who worship the Bible.

I think TWI so nit picked the Bible they became worshippers of "da Word."

Jeez, what did people do who read it before concordances, various translations, commentaries, etc.

They simply read it and were enlightened. God will show people what they need to know.

TWI just made it of no effect by their tearing it apart - super analyzing every jot and tittle. It turned us into bondage masters of legalism.

Ok, I also think of it this way.

God tabernacled (dwelt) in the Ark with Israel. His Glory shone and rested on the Mercy Seat between the Cheribum.

When the Temple was built, God tabernacled (dwelt) in the Holy of Holies - his Glory shone between the Cheribum.

It seems no one has a problem with the concept that God dwelt in the Ark and in the Temple with Israel.

Jesus' name was: Emmanuel - God with us. God now tabernacled in the flesh. Exact same concept as dwelling in the ark and temple, except now the dwelling is flesh.

Flesh was now God's tabernacle - dwelling.

Christ - God with us - dwelling in the living, breathing, Flesh. Our kinsman-redeemer.

That is awesome. His temple and dwelling place was now in "a body thou hast prepared for me" - flesh.

I tend to think they were both "real" too. If the tree of life was not real, I don't think God would have had two Cheribum guarding it up until the flood. Just as Satan chose to rebel, God had to give his Adam a choice. Without free will, man is nothing but a robot and God is unjust. Without free will, then God is truly unfair and unjust.

I think if Adam had told Satan to "get thee behind me" as the Second Adam, Jesus, did (note - was Jesus set up to fail? Thank God he didn't), Adam would have had the right to eat of the tree of life, he would have been ruler of the earth, God's regent on earth so to speak, and Christ would never have had to come redeem man - there would have been no redemption necessary. Every thing would be very different today.

As an aside, note the Cheribum's four faces: Man, lion (wild beast), ox (tame beast), bird - i.e., creation. When people came to worship God with burnt offerings outside of Eden, they saw the Cheribum guarding the Tree of Life. I have often wondered if the ancient gods man worshipped were not a corruption of the original Cheribum that Noah and his family saw and passed the info down to mankind who worshipped the "creature" rather than the Creator. Interesting.

You are welcome Garth :)

I think "religion" makes most people puke, me included. I had enough in TWI thank you - no mas religion for me.

But, it seems to me, the whole point of the Bible, and mankind needing a personal savior, Christ, is: because man is "fallen" or whatever you would like to call it.

If mankind is not fallen - why even believe the Bible? why believe Christ? why believe in a God? It makes absolutely no sense. If I did not believe that simple, basic premise, I would not believe either. I would consider it to be a waste of time and think those poor "believers" were deluded. And, as noted, we do have people who believe this.

But, many of us accept the original premise and so thus - mankind needs a redeemer.

The Bible's whole point is: There is a new "Kingdom" coming. There is a new Heaven and Earth coming. You will need a new body for the new environment that is coming. The point is to invite all to the new Kingdom and Heaven and Earth.

Its a simple point, we can choose to believe the premise or not.

But to not believe the first point in the Bible made about mankind - he was perfect and then fell, well, why believe any of it?

I wouldn't.

There can never be a reconciliation between one who believes and one who doesn't.

As a believer, when God says man is fallen, and, as he tells us, he created us to be masterpieces, I think of fallen man as if someone had thrown paint on the Pieta, or slashed and spattered paint on the Mona Lisa - a masterpiece that has been marred, spoilt - ruined, fallen.

I believe that Adam, had he not worshipped and given his authority to the Adversary, would have had the right to go eat of the tree of life and rule, Christ would not have been needed as Adam was fulfilling his mission (there's a reason why Christ is called the "second" Adam), and things would be totally different today.

When Adam made his choice to worship the Adversary and "become as gods", when he decided - well, God really doesn't mean it when he says it will be death if I do this - he lost something, something died - something so profound, that he tried to put it back on, via skins.

I almost think he wore his spirit for all to see. He was glorious when he walked the Garden - a masterpiece creation of God. I think it was similar as when Peter saw Jesus in his "transfigured" glorious body. Peter never forgot and mentions it in Acts. The Hope of a new body and transformation was a reality to him. He had seen it first hand.

God promises to restore us to glorious, masterpiece state. That is our Hope.

Here's a question, or, how would you solve this dilemma?

Mankind has fallen. You would like to redeem mankind.

You need a "Kinsman-Redeemer" - i.e., flesh must redeem flesh.

Yet, flesh cannot redeem flesh, God must redeem.

What do you do? How do you, as God, redeem Mankind?

Excellent book Penworks, I've read it a couple of times since I ran into it at a relative's house. It should be required reading. He also applies this to politics. Shows how it doesn't really matter whether its politics or religion - but that the "true believer" is dangerous. I still remember his quote: Once one is ready to die for the cause, he is also ready to kill for the cause (paraphrased). It is a truth. I think, if VP hadn't of died and LCM hadn't turned so many people off, TWI had a possibility of coming to that. That's why any type of elevation/cult/following/worship of a person or cause will always concern me.

What Geisha said!

How do I get rid of this stripe with fonts, etc., in the middle of the area to post in?

The 12 Apostles' "Great Commission" given them by Christ was to go, preach the Kingdom of Heaven. Their goal was for Israel to repent and accept that Jesus truly was the Messiah. If Israel had repented, there would have been no "age of grace" that we live in now. It was God's goal for Israel, under Christ to be the conduit for God's blessings on earth to the Gentiles.

In order to spread this gospel, they needed to be able to tell folks in the people's own tongues.

That's why I believe the miracle was that they spoke in languages other people understood. The Apostles were able to use this "gift" of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Kingdom that was coming to all people in all languages.

Sadly, Israel did not repent, as Peter commanded, and over a span of time rejected their Messiah.

The Kingdom of Heaven is in "abayance" (doncha love those old TWI terms? - not!) now.

Thus, tongues is no longer needed.

I think that what we did in TWI was not biblical speaking in tongues.

I believe he was 6th corps.

Yup, I was there when Linda Z was, it always po'es me off when I get my SS statement see those 5 years I worked with no SS to show for it. Grrr...

Rosie and TWI - leaches living in luxury off other people's hard earned money.

Well I think that region coordinator is living in the land of Denial. How shocked he will be when he finds out, no one will want to take him in to leach off of them. TWI arrogance never fails to astound me.

I was at TWI the same time Ms. Z was. I was under the dreaded Em*g8ne in the bookstore with Catcup where she called us the "scum of the crik." Welcome to TWI HQ!

Actually, in some ways I didn't have it so bad because I had been around pretty much from the beginning and knew all of the "top" leadership, and had known them since they were in the corps and I was in high school. Most of the time, I lived off grounds. When I had to live on grounds at one point, I became great friends with a 3rd corps person who lived in a lovely large house by herself, and she asked me to hang out and I ended up living there. Oh, sure, I'd sometimes show my face at my HQ trailer, but I didn't really live there.

I think, back then, life at HQ and its misery index was contingent upon who you knew. People close to VP, LCM, and DM could pretty much do as they pleased. There was a lot of partying that went on at HQ among the off grounds staff. A lot of it was from sheer boredom. When I was on staff at Emporia before that, the staff partying was amazing - but it was kept pretty quite. Done on off hours while they were in class.

Once I got out of the Bookstore, I landed in Finance, now that was a great, fun department. A lot of just great people there.

But, seeing close up the upper TWI rulers, and eventually realizing, they could care less about the people on the field they were supposed to be serving, it was an eye opener. I think the hypocrisy finally grated on me enough to leave.

By '84 when I left, TWI had gone from an organization that served people to one that was served by the people. It was petty, intolerant, legalistic, gossipy, and could be down right cruel. When I look back on it, I think I lived off grounds and stayed away after work hours, purposely. Off grounds, you could have somewhat of a life without someone always looking over your shoulder.

I still am a bit annoyed also when I get my SS summary and see those 5 blank years - grr.

I would never recommend anyone going there now. Like Mz. Z, we were told it was a true honor to be there, we were really serving God. Hah! We were young and still somewhat idealistic. Now, I'd try and discourage anyone from going there. What could they possibly offer but bondage?