Sunesis

Twinky, I was afraid it may be too long - its a read at your leisure thing, a bit here, a bit there.

Glad you weren't offended :)

I've always liked the theory that each plague made a mockery of the Egyptians gods. There's a nice article on www.ancientdays.net, I put some of it here. There's more on the net.

The Plagues

As we consider the plagues, one can discern the purpose of the plagues. In the descriptions that follow, page references are made to the excellent study The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Egypt (Manfred Lurker, Thames and Hudson, 1980).

Pre-plague: Snake (Exodus 7:9-12):

When Moses came before pharaoh he carried a rod which became a snake. The court magicians' rods also became snakes, but Moses' rod ate theirs.

The cobra or "urae" was a symbol of ruling power(108-109,125). The cobra motif is frequently found in Egyptian "art." On the forehead of pharaoh's crown there was a cobra ready to strike. On the throne of King Tut is a coiled cobra ready to strike. So, to overcome the cobra symbol is to overcome the power of pharaoh.

Glass fish from the El Amarna Period used as a cosmetic vessel. Fish, although regarded as unclean, were also sacred animals. All the Nile fish died in the plague.

Nile River (Exodus 7:14-25):

The Nile River was changed to blood. This plague was against the god Hapi, spirit of the Nile in flood and "giver of life to all men." The annual innundation was called "the arrival of Hapi" (57). He was especially worshipped at Gebel Silsileh and Elephantine. The Nile water was the transformed life-blood of Osiris. The fact that the Nile turned to blood, which was abominable to Egyptians, was a direct affront to one of their chief gods. Although the fish-goddess was Hatmeyt, all the fish in the Nile River died!

To illustrate the fact that the plagues of the Exodus were directed against the gods of Egypt, we note some Egyptian prayers to those gods. (The reference to "Nine Gods" apparently did not include pharaoh. It may be of interest that there were just nine plagues before Yahweh killed the sons of pharaoh.)

Praise to thee, 0 Nile, that issueth from the earth and cometh to nourish Egypt . . . That watereth the meadows, he that Ra hath created to nourish all cattle. That giveth drink to the desert places, which are far from water . . . When the Nile floodeth, offering is made to thee, cattle are slaughtered for thee, a great oblation is made for thee . . . Offering is also made to every other god, even as is done for the Nile, with incense, oxen, cattle, and birds upon the flame . . . All ye men, extol the Nine Gods, and stand in awe of the might which his son, the Lord of All, hath displayed, even he that maketh green the Two Riverbanks. Thou art verdant, 0 Nile, thou art verdant. He that maketh man to live on this cattle, and his cattle on the meadow . . ." (Adolph Erman, The Ancient Egyptians, 1966, p. 146.)

The Nile flooded every year, making the land fertile. If the Nile did not flood enough there was famine; if it flooded too much there was famine. The Nile was the lifeblood of Egypt, and thus it became one of their gods. Heathen gods often have some connection with the economics of daily life.

Frogs (Exodus 8:1-15):

The land was filled with them so that they became objects of loathing. The frog-headed goddess, Hekt (52, 62), played a part in "creation." Hers was one of the oldest fertility cults in Egypt. But she could not control the fertility of a these frogs! Through this plague they became a stench to the Egyptians.

Lice (Exodus 8:16-19):

At present there is no known link between this plague and a god of the Egyptian pantheon. However, the Egyptian magicians, unable to duplicate this plague, attribute it to "the finger of God" (Exodus 8:19), and they withdraw.

Underside of a heart scarab from the New Kingdom. It was laid on the heart of a mummy to ensure favorable testimony at the Judgment.

Flies, or Beetles ("insects" -- Exodus 20 - 32):

Although it is not clear which insect the Hebrew word 'arob refers to, this plague may have been against Khephera(74), a scarab-headed (104) god regarded as a manifestation of Atum or Ra. It was supposed to be god of the resurrection, perhaps because the dung ball it rolled around, and in which it laid its egg, produced a "new creation." Priests wore scarabs as charms.

Or It may have been against the fly-god. One sorcerer in the New Kingdom threatened, "I will enter your body as a fly and see your body from the inside." As a symbol of bravery, soldiers who had proven themselves were decorated with the golden fly (52).

Murrain, or Anthrax (Exodus 9:1-7):

This judgment was against the bull god (revered as early as the Archaic Period (35), and the sacred cattle of Hathor, the cow-headed love goddess. It was a special reproach to pharaoh who worshipped Hathor. Hathor, whose name means "house of Horus," was sacred as early as the Old Kingdom (41, 58). Other gods associated with cattle were Ptah and Amon.

Great cemeteries of embalmed cattle have been excavated. The symbol of the bull was the symbol of pharaoh himself. In the "Hymn to Amon," it is difficult to distinguish the Pharaoh from the bull. The title is: "Adoration of Amunre (Amon-Ra), Bull of Heliopolus, chiefest of all gods, the good god, the beloved, who giveth life to all that is warm, and to every good herd."

Praise be to thee, Amunre, Lord of Karnak, who presideth in Thebes. Bull of his Mother, the first on his field! Wide of stride, first in Upper Egypt. . . . Greatest of heaven, eldest of earth, lord of what existeth, who abideth in all things. Unique in his nature among the gods, goodly bull of the Nine Gods, chiefest of all gods. Lord of Truth, father of the gods, who maketh mankind, and createth beast. (Erman, p. 283.)

Boils (Exodus 9:8-12):

Against the god of healing, Im-Hotep (69), an outstanding nobleman of the Old Kingdom. Although not actually deified until later than the time of the Exodus, he was no doubt revered at this time. But he could do nothing to help the Egyptians. The goddess Sekhmet was also known for her healing ability (106).

Hail (Exodus 9:13-15):

The sky goddess Nut was "the mother of the sun-god Ra, whom she swallowed in the evening and gave birth to again in the morning" (90). She was especially culpable in this plague in that she was supposed to protect the land from destructions which came down from heaven. Exodus 9:31 mentions that the flax and barley were hit. Destruction of the flax was trying because it was used to wrap mummies and to make clothes.

Grasshoppers, or Locusts (Exodus 10:1-20):

The locust-headed god was Senehem. During the plague, the locusts were so thick that the "eye of the earth" was darkened (Exodus 10:5). One of the epithets of the sun-god Ra was "the eye of Ra." By causing darkness while the sun was shining, Ra was discredited.

Darkness (Exodus 10:21-27):

One of the greatest gods of Egypt, next to the pharaoh, was the sun (65, 100, 118). The sun-god Amon-Ra was the principle deity of the pantheon. He made all growth possible. Pharaoh called himself "son of the sun." With three days of darkness, the principle deity was scorned. One of many hymns to the sun may help us feel their devotion to this deity:

Beautiful is thine appearing in the horizon of heaven, thou living sun, the first who lived. Thou risest in the eastern horizon, and fillest every land with thy beauty. Thou art beautiful and great, and glistenest, and art high above every land. Thy rays, they encompass the lands, so far as all that thou hast created. Thou art Ra, and thou reachest unto their end and subduest them for thy dear son [the Pharaoh]. Thou art afar, yet are thy rays upon the earth . . . etc., ad nauseum. (Erman, p. 289.)

In all the above, many other gods could have been named which were denigrated by the various plagues. But this sampling demonstrates that Yahweh (YHVH) openly and violently, through his servants, put every one of them to shame.

Statue of Amon with crown of sun disk and plumes. He was the supreme state god at the time of the Exodus, and as Amon-Ra was identified with the sun-god.

Pharaoh (Exodus 11-12):

The last plague was not only against the supreme god of Egypt, Pharaoh himself, but also against the future pharaoh, his son, the very next god (Horus) of Egypt. He was to die on the same level as animals (not as a god), for the prophecy was that the firstborn of man and cattle would die.

Hymns of worship to many pharaohs have been found. Here is one to Rameses II:

The good god, the strong one, whom men praise, the lord, in whom men make their boast; who protecteth his soldiers, who maketh his boundaries on earth as he will. . . . (Erman, p. 258.)

Concerning the divinity of the pharaohs, William Edgerton notes:

As for the organization and powers of the government, everyone knows that the Pharaoh was an absolute monarch and that his authority rested theoretically on his supposed divinity. He is constantly called"the good god." One of his most frequent titles designates him as the son of the sun-god Ra, and we know that his claim of divine parentage was not a mere figure of speech; it was meant to be taken literally. Theoretically, of course, the Pharaoh's right-to-rule rested on his divinity. He was begotten by the sun-god Amon-Ra, who took the form of the previous king for this purpose, and Amon-Ra with the enthusiastic approval of the other gods placed him on the throne and decreed a long and brilliant reign for him. No doubt those theological fictions helped to strengthen the Pharaoh's position. But the really solid basis of his power was his control of the machinery of government, including the army and police. (Edgerton, Journal of Near Eastern Studies: 6, 1967, pp. 153-4.)

A great majority of the historical monuments were intended as official propaganda with the purpose of transmitting to posterity a "correct" impression of the glory and power of the pharaohs. Crises of revolution and that type of inner strife so common in the Orient, as well as military defeats in foreign wars, were either passed over completely or were interpreted so that the monuments conveyed impressions much distorted and unduly colored to the credit of the Egyptians. (Steindorff and Seele, When Egypt Ruled the East, p. 6, our emphasis.)

The above is the reason there is no Egyptian record of the Exodus. The Egyptians simply would not record it because it was such a calamity. That may be true. However, we think evidence will yet be discovered for it. Although his mummy has been discovered, the temple of the man who was likely the Pharaoh of the Exodus, Amenhotep II, has never been found. If it is ever found and opened it may contain evidence of the plagues or the Exodus.

In Exodus 4:22-23 God told the Egyptians, "Israel is my son, my first-born. Let him go! If not, I will slay thy first-born!" Then in Exodus 11:5-7 and 12:29 we we that the last plague was against the first-born.

As if losing the future pharaoh was not enough, even the god of storms, Baal-Zephon, could not help the army which was pursuing Israel into the desert. In plain view of his temple, the whole army of Pharaoh was destroyed (Ex 14:2,9). Baal of Syria was equated by the Egyptians with their god Seth (19, 109). And the cruel sea was believed to be a manifestation of Seth.

Yahweh's Purpose in the Plagues

The first reason for the final plague was that the Egyptians may know that Yahweh is God! (Exodus 7:5; 8:10; 9:14-16,27; 10:16; 14:4.) The Lord is gracious in that He says over and over that He is doing this for the Egyptians that they might know He is the Lord. In fact, among the Egyptians, those who exercised faith were saved (Exodus 9:20-21; 12:38). Just as we today have an incentive to believe in Christ because of His miracles (John 20:31), so the Egyptians had opportunity to believe because of the plagues.

The second reason for the plagues was that Israel might know Yahweh, their God, is The God and that there is no other (Exodus 10:1-2; 11:7; 14:31; Deuteronomy 4:32-35, Psalms 135:5-10). Some of the Israelites seem to have lost faith in Jehovah during their servitude. Possibly they were impressed with Egypt's gods since they seemed to be helping the Egyptians. But now Israel was to see evidence of Yahweh's absolute sovereignty and superiority over all the gods of Egypt. In fact, in Exodus 10:2 (NASB) we read that the Lord mocked the Egyptian gods.

Why didn't pharaoh believe? Why should he? He was a god! If he believed, he would lose his "divinity." But God hardened his heart. Why? Because, if he had repented and let Israel go after the first plague, all the gods of Egypt would have retained their greatness in the eyes of the Egyptians and of Israel. People had to suffer to demonstrate that all gods other than Yahweh were nothing.

Jethro summed it up well when he later said, "Now I know that Yahweh is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly He was above them!" (Exodus 18:11)

Necessary in the plan for Israel's salvation was that they should do a simple, visible act. That was to take a lamb, kill it, and put some of its blood on the doorpost of their dwelling. Egyptian symbolism is interesting even in this act, for a door was a symbol of both entry and defense (47). And gates played a special role in the journey of the deceased through the nether world. For Israel, putting blood on the doorposts indicated that something done in one's heart is not enough. They had to act out their faith. Pharaoh could have saved his first-born if he had done that. But it would have destroyed the Egyptian system. In doing so, he would have acknowledged Yahweh as God. Furthermore, sheep were an abomination to the Egyptians.

Yahweh's plan of salvation for Israel was not only to put down the gods of Egypt. God was calling out a people for Himself. This was His greater and higher purpose. For Israel to be a special people to the Lord they had to break with the associations they had in Egypt. They had to see that:

He is over all gods (I John 3:8; John 12:31-33);

that the lamb was slain and blood brought deliverance (John 1:29; Acts 20:28; Ephesians 1:7; I Peter 1:18-20; Revelations 5:9);

this is family oriented salvation (Exodus 12:3,4,26).

A final thought -- Jesus (Yeshua, Hebrew, means "salvation") instituted the New Covenant as a Passover meal. Today, the family of faith partakes of this meal, a sign of deliverance (Moshiach, Hebrew, means "deliverer") from the bondage of Egypt and from their gods (Luke 22:1-20). Jeremiah and Ezekiel both prophesied a new covenant which would include not only outward signs, but renewed hearts and minds. Anyone today can enter this New Covenant through acknowledging Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha Moshiach) as their Lord and Savior.

I think the last couple of paragraphs sum it up, the whys and wherefores of it.

But, your mileage and interpretation may vary.

OMG - just years of drama. Does it ever stop?

I just can't imagine living my life like that, letters, who was right, who was wrong, betrayal, intrigue.

You know what JAL and others? No one cares about these tiny little self-destructive, drama school sects.

Enough, grow up already.

Garth, knock off the smug self-righteous attitude. We all know you hate God, Christ, the Bible - we get it. You've let us all know, you've made no bones about it.

You always come and drop you little hate bombs in the doctrinal threads.

Read my post again.

I used Moses as someone, who, if the Bible is true - and I believe it is, was the head of a theocracy, but had the "signs" to back it up. Thus, the people followed.

Other then him, every theocracy has been man, playing God. I then gave some examples of results that happen when men play god.

As for the one to come, I believe He will. You, on the other hand agree with those Peter mentions - they scoff, and wonder where is his coming, its been so long... Good for you. He's either coming or he isn't. I believe he will someday, you believe its a myth. Fine. I don't hate you or come on with a nasty attitude towards you - but for some reason you feel you must.

So, continue to rage against the machine Garth, just quit taking it out on everyone who believes differently than you.

It is scary. I think for a theocracy to work, the people would have to believe, without a doubt, that their "ruler" was called of God, and walked with God, as they believed Moses was. Yet, in order for him to be believed, Israel needed to see miracles, which he provided. Hey, won't the antichrist do the same thing someday?

Without a true, called of God leader, a theocracy will quickly turn into creulty and death. Witness the Inquisition, Islam where it rules - any place where the leader walks with God, if you do not obey, since you will burn in hell or not enter into paradise, than the civil authorities have the right to torture and kill you since God hates you for not keeping his precepts - you are worthless to God. A natural man theocracy is always hell - although, people do seem to appreaciate the law and order aspects of it. Many times, that's how those religious leaders rise to power - promises of law and order.

I too believe religion should stay out of government.

That's also why no school prayer has never bothered me. Jesus said, pray privately in your closet, not in public for all to see. I think prayer is something personal and private, why a kid should be forced to pray in a public situation in school or whereever always puzzled me.

I'd love to hear you share Spectrum :)

I asked the same question once on staff to a "bigwig" who at that time was president's cabinet. He said that LCM and DM saw themselves as the prophet and prophetess of TWI. We also know that LCM identified heavily with Joshua - the prophet/warrior come to continue Moses' work and lead the people to the promised land. That's just what he tried to do, come to think of it. Continue VP's work and lead TWI into the land of the prevailing, or the prevailing land - or whatever it was he called it.

Sorry :( wrong forum

Good to see you too Geisha! I hope all is well :)

Excath, you're not crazy. Many Christians down through the ages are the same way, your back and forth with the holy spirit in you is a common occurence, the medieval christians used to call it being in "bliss."

Its a thought, an idea, something strikes your fancy and you muse on it, maybe a topic and you look it up and read what others have written before you and you hold fast the good.

Excath, you know, and I know, he's there, he's real...

Don't let anyone disparage you.

Its been a Hard Days Night.... Beatles.

I bet, most of you here of my generation, could tell me what the next line is, we could probably sing the whole song together.

Signs, wonders, miracles - those things Christ did during his ministry, were for the Nation of Israel, proof Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

He said those words as he was dying on the cross... The first line of that amazing Psalm, the hearers knew the rest. The end of the Psalm shows him in total triumph.

My personal thinking is this was his last "sign" before he died, while he was alive, directed to the Jewish people, as to who he really was.

Rascal - LOL!!!! The advice on a lady holding the microphone - good thing I wasn't drinking my coffee then...

Socks, thanks so much for sharing. The reunion must have been '84, because that's when I left HQ - after the Rock and corps week that summer. I could just tell you weren't the Socks I had known, knew there was something not right, so I just talked to you and tried to be a blessing. I just remember they were not treating you right - I guess it was body language. Thanks for sharing that.

Newlife, I know what you mean, on staff at Emporia I was told to put down my music, sell my guitars and move on - which I did like an idiot. I was using borrowed instruments at HQ. When I went on the field after HQ in '84 it took me almost two years to decide it was ok to play again and I would not be going against God's will. I started jamming at this little blues bar on Sundays called Dan Lynch's - the only bluesbar in the city at that time. From there, once I got my chops up to speed again (VanHalen, Randy Rhoads, etc. - the lead shredders), as lead playing style had changed quite a bit while I was in the corps and on staff, I was constantly in bands and had a wonderful time, and made some great new "natural man" friends. So, Newlife, hang in, keep doing what you love, maybe get some recording equipment for your computer (you can get it for as little as $99 now), make a little myspace page, put your music there - people will listen. Continue to do what you love...

Well, I am late to the party, but I will say, socks was probably my fav Way Prod. musician - he was wonderful, and since he was a guitar player and an excellent one, I was always watching his fingers as he played his Gibson LP Custom (correct, that's what it was, wasn't it?).

When I was in high school and we'd drive to HQ for a weekend in '72, I'd go watch JN rehearse and let Ted know I wanted to be in it someday. I had been playing in "rock" bands through high school and really wanted to be in JN - as did a lot of other young people.

Then I went in the corps. I was blessed to be able to be in the corps dance band, and, also, to write music for it. Why did I write music for it? Because it was supposed to be dance/rock music - TWI didn't really have that type of music, so someone had to write it, and I've always been good with coming up with riffs, rockers, etc., so I stepped up and wrote enough to get us through, plus with others that we were able to "rock up" from Way prod recordings. It was a lot of fun.

My last year in -res, I was blessed to be picked to run - uh - "coordinate" the corps dance band. We had had an excellent dance band my first year, and so my last year, after the first rehearsal, I did not feel some of the musicians were up to speed and dismissed them and went to H*l*n S*dd*th and told her and asked for some others please. I did this because, in the "world," if a band member wasn't good enough you let him go and found someone who was. It was all done innocently enough. Well, she read me the riot act - and, of course, now, much older and wiser, I don't blame her. I got everyone back, we rehearsed and we got quite good. And I loved seeing these people come alive in a band context and really feel like there was some place in the "impersonal" corps program, where they could shine and be a part of a group that just had fun - lots of fun, no rules, no regs, no bible over the head. They may not have been as good as the first group, but I think I loved them more and had a greater time with them. Wonderful people.

When I was on staff at Emporia, me and Rick Panyard (of Good Seed fame and college division) put together the staff Dance band because quite a few staffers played, it was done by ourselves, for the fun of it. It lasted a couple of years and was also great fun.

It was all great fun because VPW was not involved. Somehow, this had all slipped under his radar.

Then I get to HQ. I said to D. Bailey, let's start a '40s big band, swing thing, the music my dad played, and I loved and grew up with, there are plenty of musicians here to do it. We rounded up people who wanted to, had a rehearsal, had fun, and it sounded great. VP gets wind of it, I later hear he's scrapped it and wants to make it some sappy dinner/supper type thing. We all said no thanks.

Then VP wants to do another country band. I was asked to play guitar, said, well, ok. I think it was with people who had been in a group called the Jordan River Ramblers - a forerunner of Way Caravan. Anyway, the bass player leaves, and I am forced to play bass. Ok, I've never played bass, played the scale for each chord, it sounded decent enough. One night, we have to show up at the Minster theater. VP is there wants to watch us play and critique us. It was awful, yells at me because I am not constantly smiling and looked at my guitar as a I was changing a chord. I was not a happy camper. Neither were the rest of the people he railed on. I told Ted, I quit, I don't care what VP thinks. VP comes and finds me next day, says I played great. I'm thinking, what kind of game is this, first you yell, then you say something opposite. I stayed a little while longer and the band shortly thereafter fell apart - thank God.

I guess my point is, when we were left to ourselves to do it, bless others and have fun, it was great. But VP took the blessing out of it. By the time I had arrived at HQ I had known for years I did not want to be in Way Prod. It seemed so stifling, it was so controlling, they also had let go some of the best talent because it seemed to me, if someone truly had "charisma" it was a threat, and they would be gone. I liked the people in Way Prod., but to me, the music was always very mediocre, except the early '70s, before VP really starting having a hand in it. From about '76 on, it did nothing for me.

Personally, VP was of a different generation. While building the ministry, he let the kids have their fun because it attracted other people to his ministry. Once it had grown, I think is when he really started clamping down and I saw some of the best musicians treated terribly.

Socks, I think as time went on, and you had left, there was a JN reunion some years later. You came back, did not have a guitar then, but I did not like the way the Way Prod people were treating you - it was an attitude they had, you were such a wonderful sweet person. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I think that was the last time I saw or spoke to you.

Anyway, that was my experiences on the fringes of Way Prod. I left HQ in the early '80s, went to NYC and played metal, thrash and hardcore for a decade, from CBGB's to every club in NYC and had lots of fun...

Mr. Potato, I use that phrase, because, in-residence, it was exactly the loud-mouthed, extroverted men who attracted the attention of the higher ups - corps coordinators, limb coordinators, etc. Also LCM was like that and he was their example. Although, sometimes the quiet ones were also chosen, and some even unwillingly. But, look at the leadership who were corps, you will see it in action. Most, not all though, top leadership were very arrogant.

It was true, in TWI, the squeaky wheel got the grease. The loud-mouthed, egotistical men were chosen. In any organization, if you read a bit on organizational psychology, the people at the top, are not necessarily the best people, hardest workers, etc. They are people that those on the top personally like. They see that this guy will fit in nicely with the other guys at the top and so take him under their wing and nurture him. Yes, birds of a feather flocked together. You could literally see, in the first two weeks or so, the men they had picked out by the assignments they got.

This also applied to women to. Many of VP's female revs were also sarcastic, bitchy loudmouths - some tough gals so to speak. Although there were exceptions to that rule.

I also think, there were many milder-mannered men who went in, who deep in their heart, wanted power and had always restrained themselves. Now, they were in a situation where it was ok to let loose the restraints and be what they really wanted to be - tough guys.

I think, people became what they wanted to be.

Those who didn't change, I think many were people who loved God, or had a great upbringing, whatever, but they could just never imagine themselves behaving that way.

I do not believe that everyone who went in TWI were born again. I think, kind of like Hitler's organization was - there was an opportunity to get in on the ground floor of something and get some power. It attracted certain people. I had been lucky enough on the field to be with wonderful people and was quite surprised to see some of the loud-mouthed bullies when I ended up in-residence. I just pretty much ignored them and never took them seriously. Those of us where weren't bullies made great friends with other "like" people and we relied on our little social networks to get through it.

There is one time I know for sure LCM was on meds - they were afraid he was going to hurt himself, that was when POP was read and that all came out at the rock. I've heard there were a couple of other times.

I was not around for TWI II - it sounds like LCM was absolutely totally off his rocker, with images of self-delusion regarding how great he was. He was a prophet (in his mind), he was Joshua the 2nd. He once told the AOS crew he wasn't Jesus Christ - yet. That one really made me decide, thank God I'm not on staff anymore. It was shortly after that I left TWI.

But, when he announced the Word was over the World - to me that was a "cop-out" so to speak. It was an admission of failure - TWI had nothing to offer anyone now - it was now time to close ranks, which is what happened.

Thanks Groucho! Good to see you too :)

Bolshevik - LOL! That's as good an explanation as any I've seen.

After it was announced LCM would be pres., I was really quite surprised to hear many men in leadership - revs. - privately say how they never liked him and, as one man said of LCM, "he is a cocky jock." This surprised me because these were some loyal, top leadership. I think they were following him, because they were loyal to VP and LCM was VP's annointed one. They did it out of loyalty to VP. But, there was no loyalty to LCM, I think that's why pretty much no one did form loyal LCM splinter groups that I know of. You can also see how little loyalty there was to LCM after the mass 86-88 exodus of the older, original hippie generation, leaving LCM with the young 20 year olds to lead. Pretty much all of us who had gotten in early - late /60s-early 70s, had now grown up, and weren't about to follow anyone anymore.

I agree with some posters, he was the king at one time, his throne was usurped, I can see why he would not want to start his own splinter group either. He was the fall guy, no innies or outies would follow him. It just won't happen.

I do feel that, when LCM was young, in college, he really did want to know God and loved God. He fell into the hands of a pervert. I think VP had an inherent, sick, predatory evil, inside him, and LCM didn't. VPW had to teach it to Craig, it was not natural to him, and I would think, after LCM's initial shock, since he was a gung-ho follower of VP (I really think there was some kind of father/hero worship issue with LCM), he probably seared his conscience to give it place and believe what VP taught the "initiated" ones in that area. I don't think it came quickly or easily for LCM. As it took years for LCM to get to the point where he is now, I would hope, after many years, it will maybe dawn on him what he did. If he has any true love for God and Christ left, I do think God in his mercy can show him. I think if LCM ever did get it, his repentence would be real. I guess I'm thinking, maybe God hasn't thrown him away, totally, he is still his child. VPW - I still do not believe was ever His child. That's just me. I have a feeling some of the people on the "top" he surrounded himself weren't either. It was about power for them. Wolves preying on an innocent flock. That's why, from knowing LCM and how he always wanted his heart to be right with God, I cannot rule his repentence out someday, and do not put him in the same league with VP.

It always astounded me, when they were running people off, getting rid of "weakness" in the household, and just plain trashing everyone, that no one at the top stopped to think - wait a minute, how are we going to make up this cash deficit? - all of the money we will lose in the future? Where will it come from?

It seems they never did think about that.

Talk about stupeeedd people!

I can't imagine there's much coming in now. They will have to really steward what's left to make it last.

If they start being nice to people, inviting people they've thrown out back to fellowship - there's only one reason, and one reason only, they need an infusion of cash.

I wonder how much they lost with the stock market crash?

Nice, dead-on description Skyrider. It is who you know at TWI, and most other places as well..

I'd also add, birds of a feather flock together; like attracts like.

They are all very much like each other. I read a study once on who makes it to the "top" in corporations. Its not the smartest, best educated or hardest workers, its people that others on the top like to hang out with. Certain staffers "click" with the top people and are tested, groomed, and slowly invited into the club over time. Its an unspoken part of corporate life.

Years ago, I would watch some of TWI's top people pick out corps people, hang out with them, watch who got dropped, and who lasted - they look for people like themselves, and find them.

Although, I'd say that the AV lifer at HQ is an exception - I've always wondered what kept him. He never wanted to be ordained, VP basically after years had to force him, yet, he's still there. He didn't hang out with a whole lot of people. Every rule has an exception, I think he's it. I'd really like to know why he has.

I had a dream, I was at the Rock, walking down Wierwille Road to the big top for the festivities. Remember how VP used to have the Ambassador One plane buzz the tent at the opening? Well, it was coming, but it was flying low, I was the only one on the road, I started running, it was coming at me, right behind me... I kept thinking, "I've got to get out of the way, I've got to get out of the way" as I ran. Finally, it was on top of me, I hit the road flat - it just missed me and rose up and flew off.

All that day I mused what that dream could possibly mean, the plane trying to run me over, I've got to get out of the way. Finally, it dawned on me - DUH. Instead of analyzing it, let's take it literally - I've got to get out of the Way - I need to leave the Way.

I mused on that for a few days - leaving TWI. I had been with them since I was 15, I had family in, friends, you know - my life. One afternoon about a week later, as I was walking down the street of my city and I just stopped. I thought, that's it, I'm done - no more. I felt like a huge weight had lifted - I felt free for the first time in years. I didn't even bother telling anyone - I just didn't care anymore. I ran into people ocassionally, but since they were all affiliated with CG - they wanted nothing to do with me anyway. So, I guess I went out quietly.

I agree, they did try and get us to squelch who we were. I got rid of somethings I still regret to this day. To squelch who you are is unhealthy can can lead to mental health problems and breakdowns as one gets older.

I just cannot for the life of me imagine why someone would want to go back there - no matter how nice they are. Here, have some Kool-aid - its a new flavor!

I've heard of it. It sounds like automatic writing to me though - same thing, new name.

How would you know its God answering you? What if its your subconscious? What if its another spirit that is not God's? Might as well ask the Ouija Board or the 8 Ball.

Mark, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. All the prophecies from the OT and gospels are for those who shall enter the Kingdom - the millenium - Israel, with the Gentiles partaking in the blessings of Israel also. As prophesised in the OT, 10 gentiles will hold the hem of a jewish person and say, let us go up with you, we have heard God is with you. This will come to pass. They will be grafted into the blessings for Israel. Christ came to Israel announcing the Kingdom at hand.

Christ gave the 12 apostles their great comissioning - to Israel. that's why Peter continually told Israel to "repent." Christ was alive, you, Israel killed him, but he was alive, they were witnesses, and he would come back if they repented. In order for Christ to return for Israel - ALL of Israel must repent. But, that did not happen.

The Church, the one body, are not told that we all must repent in order for Christ to gather us.

I agree, Paul in Acts 20 was preaching the "Kingdom." He had not yet received the full Revelation of the mystery at that point.

It is at the end of Acts, where he repeats the words of the prophet Jermiah - Isaiah (I don't have my Bible with my now), for the 3rd time, realizing Israel would not now repent, so thus, the Kingdom is not coming - and thus, in Acts 28 he says I now go to the Gentiles. Once the temple was torn down in 70 ad, the Kingdom was in abeyance.

The age of Grace is now ushered in.

Of course there were OT prophecies fulfilled in Christ, and Christ spoke of them to come. Paul does not dispute that, neither do I.

Remember when Christ sat in the temple, opened the scroll and preached and taught the verse in Isaiah then stopped. The second part, when he judges jew and gentile, when he comes back in glory is fulfilled in Revelation, NOT in this age of grace, this unprophesied age that was never written of in the OT nor foretold in the prophecies.

We were never mentioned - ever in the OT. The OT prophecies and Christ's prophecies of the end times, which were meant for Isreal, cannot be appropriated by the church.

They were not spoken to the Church. Our present age was never, ever prophesised in the OT or gospels. It was kept secret from before the foundation of the world.

If our age was not known, nor prophesised about, how can one the Church of today apply the prophecies to Israel to themselves? You cannot. And Paul did not.

We are one body. We will have a "celestial" body - not an earthly, eternal body that Israel will have. Our inheritence is in heaven, not on earth. We are never promised land or a city Jerusalem. We are a new creation. We fill up Christ's body. We are his body now and in eternity.

It is the Bride that looks for a new city, Jerusalemand dwells therein.

It is the Body, that is God's inheritence in the Heavenlies and dwells therein.