Sunesis

Well, I don't know a whole lot about parables, except that the ones Christ spoke in the Gospels were regarding the coming Kingdom to earth (Israel's hope), and the things in the parable did symbolize other things.

All I know is, I was alway hoping I didn't do anything too bad to get cut off and lose my "grafted" status as discussed in Romans :).

I really think there is a difference, there was a transition from what I call the Acts period - or the time when the Savior and Kingdom were offered again to Israel after Christ's death, to the transition and a new period, where Israel was set aside and new period, the age of grace was ushered in, where all gentile nations could partake - i.e., the age of Grace and the one new creation, the one body with a home in Glory. This was not made known until the "prison" epistles written after the book of Acts closes.

The other epistles were written during Acts and correspond with the accounts in Acts as they were waiting for the immediate return of their Messiah.

That's why Paul in one epistle can say, if you aren't married, its best if you don't. Later, after he realized Israel was in abeyance, he had the revelation of Grace and the one body and realized we were in a new age, he said - go ahead, get married.

He knew it was a new administation so to speak.

I wouldn't worry about it. I post in the political forum and people don't like my politics. I have a terrible rep. All the ones in lockstep pat themselves on the back and give each other great reps - its comical.

Really, don't take is too seriously :)

erkjohn, you are correct, Paul does quote the OT in Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Galations, I & II Thessalonians, and Hebrews.

This is why, I believe:

I finally realized - for me - in order to understand the NT (not counting gospels), ask myself the question:

Were they believing and looking for Israel's hope when this book was written?

The books I mentioned above were written during the Acts time period. What were they looking for during Acts? The Gentiles by grace had been "grafted" in and were now partakers of Israel's hope and promises.

No one ever dreamed the Messiah would be rejected. They were looking for his return from heaven in glory - they were looking for Revelation to begin - that was the END for them - there was no other alternative. And, he was coming shortly. They fully expected to be alive when he returned.

That is the hope Paul taught and preached, so yes, in the books I mentioned, the OT was quoted extensively. He was preparing them, especially the gentiles who were born again, to enter into the earthly kingdome, partaking of Israel's hope.

Then, as I said, uh-oh... Israel did not repent... Now what???

God goes to the Gentiles. Paul now receives the "fullness" of the revelation - the cherry on top, kept secret from before the foundations of the world. It was inconceivable to that the Messiah would be rejected - but God knew.

The so-called "prison epistles" - Ephesians, Colossians, Phillipians, Philemon, I & II Timothy (I'm missing one - don't have my bible with me) - were written AFTER the Book of Acts closes, were written AFTER Israel was set aside. They were written after. They deal with the new revelation of the Mystery. Thus, you will find almost no OT quotes in these epistles as it was not written there. I and II Timothy to me are kind of like a transition books - how a leader conducts himself in this new administration of the mystery.

I believe that's why there, Paul tells Timothy to "rightly divide" the Word. Back then, everyone knew the OT and OT prohecies, and many were fullfilled by Christ when he was on earth, but now, you have this parenthesis, this age of grace and it was to be "rightly divided" - the difference between OT, and the sliver of time we're in now - the age of grace. It was important to keep the distinctions between the two and where they were after Israel was put aside in Acts 28.

When you read the "prison epistles" you're in a new, spiritual dimension. Paul explains the new creation and where its place (Glory) will be in the new creation and eternity. We will be dwellers in the light and will need new bodies to dwell in this place.

Plus, we are told our "blessings" are in heavenly places - not on earth, like Israel's.

So, anyway, to me, I ask when I read the epistles - which hope were they looking for?

I think TWI's mistake was putting Acts and all the NT together. But that's another topic.

So, yes, you will read OT verses in Galations and Romans - why? Because they were looking for Israel's hope, prophesied in the OT and eagerly awaited. The Mystery had not yet been revealed yet during the period those books were written.

Didn't you ever wonder, even in TWI (I did), how in Romans, we were basically lucky to be grafted into to the olive tree (Israel), but just as the natural branches were pruned - watch out - you, Mr. Gentile, could be too. Then contrast in Eph.: neither depth nor height, things in this world or the next can ever separate us from the love of Christ? What a contradiction.

So, once I figured out, which hope were they looking for - Israel's? (as they were in Romans) then it made sense.

The prison epistles move you into a new spiritual territory.

Even today many people don't get them and are totally flummoxed by Ephesians, which is considered the greatest "mystical" book of the NT. Maybe that's why its the only one written to the "faithful in Christ Jesus." :)

Yes, they did. Remember, Isreal rejected its Messiah, and the "last call" so to speak of the Apostles, that if Israel repented, Christ was ready to come back in his glory and they would enter the book of Revelation, so to speak.

Also remember in Acts, Romans, I&II Corinthians, I and II Thessalonians, Hebrews and Galations - Paul had not yet received his revelation of the "one new man" the "new creation" the "one body."

During that time, it was Israel's hope that was taught and preached, and at that point, any Gentile who believed, was basically lucky to be "grafted in" and able to partake of Israel's hope - the new earth and heavenly jerusalem come to earth.

Now, along comes Ephesians and the rest of the prison epistles.

Remember, Israel had done the unthinkable - they had rejected their Messiah.

Uh oh - now what?

Well, now, God says, I will go to the Alien and Stranger, the one who had NO HOPE, absolutely no inheritance in Israel's hope, the one who was "without me" and could never know me. They had no Hope. They were adrift on the earth. Israel was my chosen fleshly people on earth. Through Israel, it was my intention that they spread my knowledge to the Gentiles.

But now, because of Israel's hardness, blindness, hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see... I will go to the Gentile. I will give the revelation to Paul of a mystery I have kept hidden and not prophesised about in the OT. A plan I purposed in eternity, before Gen. 1:1. I will call out a body to live with me above the heavens, in Glory with me.

Whoa! Hold on there!! To a Jew, or a Gentile who had become a Christian during the Acts period, this was unthinkable.

They said, this was never, ever, written in the OT. You can't prove this Paul - it is not written! The priest could enter into the holy of holies in the temple once a year - signifying entrance into the Glory where God dwelt - but now you are saying Paul that the Gentiles who believe will live there with him - in God's glory????!!!!! You're nuts!

They walked away. All asia turned away.

Paul received the fullness of the revelation, the mystery, a new thing. He rarely used OT quotes to back it up - because its not there. They basically had to take it on faith that what he said was true.

I see it more as, there is a new heaven and earth coming that will dwell in God's light holy, pure, and without sin, and God, over time is calling people to believe and is going about populating all segments of the new earth and heaven. That's why new bodies will be needed. The laws of phyics as we know them will be folded up.

He is populating the new earth, the heavenly Jerusalem, I believe angels will stay in the heavens, and the one body - those who believe the prison epistles, will dwell in glory - the place (it is a literal place) above the heavenlies. All segments will be full of life - bodies terrestial and bodies celestial.

So, because of Paul's teaching, of putting aside Israel's hope, which was now in abeyance (Acts 28:28), and being given a commission by God to preach what happened and what comes next during this period of grace while Israel is "lo-ammi" - not my people - for now, Christ now functions as the head and builder of a new creation, a one body that will live in union with him as part of his body in glory in eternity, yes - people walked. Whoever heard of such a thing????

Tom, I was interested to get your take on the documentary. God truly worked through that young man. I found it interesting older men "used" him to reach out to kids and get their ministries going. Yes, what a nasty, self-righteous thing for Smith to say at his funeral - almost channeling the same spirit VP would use - it was said out of sheer jealousy.

These men used him, then threw him away when they got what they wanted from him. I sometimes wonder about God's "leaders."

Oh well, its a great film if anyone wants to see what us little hippies were like back then :)

No Nato, you aren't - we have quite a few hardcore aetheists here who used to be faithful TWI members. Hang around, you'll run into each other :)

Chockfull, I know Sk*p M**quite, who recently passed away went through the same thing. For years he wouldn't touch his sax - not God's will. He finally picked it up again, played with old buddies Tower of Power and was blessed. I was always glad he got back to doing what he loved.

I know exactly what you are going through. I was a musician and played lead guitar starting in high school open house bands, onto Berklee, into the corps and in the TWI corps dance bands, then staff bands, etc.

I hated Way prod. VP had a vision of Lawrence Welk and had a hard time relating to us young hippies.

Oldskool, I was then bugged for a few years I should put down my guitars because "God has better things for you." Right...

Finally, after intense pressure on staff, I sold my '68 SG and a couple of other guitars worth a fortune now. It was driven into me that God did not want me doing music. It was with much regret I sold them. In fact, when I brought them in to sell to my friend who ran the local music store, I couldn't tell him the real reason I was selling them. We had been buddies and went to the clubs to see bands together on my down time on staff at Emporia. I had quite the "double life" while on staff there. Anyway, he was my friend, I told him I was selling them to get money for a motorcycle. He then said, keep your guitars, I'll lend you the money for the bike. I was stunned - a natural man offering to front me a loan and almost begging me to keep those guitars.

Long story short, a few years later, I left TWI and moved to NYC. It took me two full years to think that maybe, just maybe, it was ok with God if I played again. I went to a pawnshop, picked up a guitar and started going to the blues jams on 14th Street at Dan Lynch's - the only blues club in the City. It went great. I then had to brush up on my rock, since I had been in TWI and on staff for so long - guitar players had come a long way since Clapton (who I could play note for note). So I woodshedded for a few months, learned EVH, Randy Rhodes, George Lynch, etc. - just learned their styles and licks.

I ended up playing metal/hardcore/thrash in all - probably every single club in NYC - those were fun times - Metal up your a## (Metallica) in the '80s and early '90s in NYC - what an awesome time to be there!

So, my point is - GO FOR IT! If it makes you happy - do it - enjoy it!

My Brother is good friends with Billy Falc8on who is in Nashville and writes for Bon Jovi and has a lovely house in Nashville, with the pool, etc. with the royalties he's made from writing with Jon.

It took awhile to get out of the TWI "waybrain" about their whole convoluted take on music. Venture forth...

For me, God has "repaid the years the locusts have eaten" (Joel), and I have a nice little "vintage" collection and my '80s Kramer collection. God is good :)

I also use it to disengage the logic portion of my brain when I need to see a situation from a different angle. It helps at times, much like using it to help find lost keys. It gives the subconscious a chance to work.

Then again, maybe I'm crazy...

Java Jane, I agree with that. Scientific studies have shown that when people SIT a certain portion of the brain kind of shuts off. Maybe its something that calms and lets an idea or thought from God come through all of our static. Linguistics researchers have also studied glossilalia(sic) as they call it. They have shown that it is not a language, as language is defined. No syntax, and other things its missing (I forget what right now). So, we know its not a "real" language.

So, that's why I believe the Acts apostles did speak in another tongue, or as the other poster said, the people heard their language as the Apostles were speaking - that is also miraculous in itself. But, I would almost discount that, because throughout history, even to modern day, people have heard their language spoken by someone SITing - not just in a TWI setting, but missionaries, etc.

But, I also note that many people were born again as children and automatically SIT'ed. It was just a "natural" thing to do, and many of us now, still spontaneously do it - such as I do if I'm particularly happy or excited about something - or just plain blessed :)

So, I think there may be something to it, but who knows what - a calming agent, a way of letting God's thoughts come through - who knows, as I said - I don't know what it is.

Yes, us NYers were raised under Steve Heefner's ministry. But, many people don't know that Steve and Jim Doop were best friends growing up in California - from little boys in childhood through their times with TWI. I always found it interesting that these two grew up together and each had a wonderful ministry. Jim on the west coast, Steve on the east.

They both then left TWI after realizing they had been used by VP and I believe both went back to California. Later, Jim went back to TWI for a bit and this caused a rift between him and Steve. That is the only time I ever saw Jim. He was traveling with VP and was at a corps meeting. We were in a hotel - and I totally forget the event. But I remember looking at him thinking, so that's who he is. I did not talk to him though.

"Beautifully out there" - awesome, I love it Excie. You have a wonderful way of describing things :)

As I said somewhere in the early part of this thread. I had been researching - or learning about the "Jesus Movement" and realized, hey, these things don't happen too often.

I had always wished I could talk to one of God's men who lived earlier who led the great revivals. But then I thought, hey, we have living leaders here, let's talk to them. So, I called Jim because he had known Lonnie Frisbee - the kid who won so many thousands of young people to Christ in California - and, who, of course, was latched onto by older men to get their ministries going (Martin, Wise). But, Frisbee was the catalyst. Doop was also one of those men in the early days of the movement. I did not know him but I wanted to know about the men in that movement, what it was like - I wanted a historical account. Talking with him was profound, that's the only way to put it. We talked for hours. I was blessed enough to talk to him twice and have always been thankful I got to talk with him before he died. What a heart and love for God he had - still.

If you are members of netflix, they have a documentary that was made on Lonnie and the movement. Steve Heefner is interviewed with his wife, and Doop is in there a bit. I suggest you rent it if you are interested in knowing more. Just searh for "Lonnie Frisbee."

I still believe SITing in Acts was the proper thing. In other words, they were told to spread the good news. They didn't have time to learn lots of new languages - thus, they were able to speak in another tongue via Holy Spirit miraculously. You still hear of it happening this way, still today.

I don't think what we were taught to do was SITing. But, I don't know what it is. I know if I'm particularly blessed or joyous, I'll spontaneously do it. I figure - well - I don't know what I figure, but I don't really worry about it. If I do it fine. But its not something I consciously do and "drive" myself to do like when I was in TWI.

I did not mean to start any disagreements or arguments. I will say that Geisha, is probably one of the best, articulate Bible "teachers" I've read and whose posts I have enjoyed. She knows it, and I believe, lives it.

I also very much respect Tom and Chockful. All of us see things differently and what works best for our lives right now. My sister just loves her Baptist Church, and I've gone with her to it. Its very nice. But, just not for me currently. Maybe I will go one day, who knows.

I value Geisha's input immensely and think we need to just stand back a bit and agree to disagree :)

Tom and Chockfull, thank you for your sharings. I don't spend much time around young people, but my neice goes to a wonderful Christian College in Colorado and loves it. My nephew is taking 7 months before his freshman year of college to go with a group doing ministry in Thailand, then Turkey. I know kids love their youth ministries, and Tom, that must be awesome with the young believers in your class. That is just wonderful to hear. Sounds like you've done a lot of different church exploring too.

Ham - yeah, it is insanity doing the same things expecting a different result :) Oh well, I've decided to pull back from that area a bit. It is what it is and will be what it will be.

Geisha, I have read quite a few different Christian sites and forums over the years on the 'net. The one I look at now is one of the biggest on the net. You still see the drama, the questions, is our Pastor leading us to hell??? (just kidding - but close) Should we leave our church? Is our church becoming emergent? It almost seems that people are being called out of their churches many times. I see the same drama and politics I saw in TWI.

I have a dear friend who is a Methodist Pastor, has been for a couple of decades and recently received her Ph.d from Oxford. We were talking and she said its a terrible problem as church attendance has been way down now for years. Not just her church only, but in general. I know the bigger, or mega churches use music, bands, plays, productions, etc. to get people there. It just seems that so many churches want to grow their church, but not "offend" the new people. So the teachings are kept simple. I asked two of my friends, what does your church do for people who want to learn more. That's where small bible study groups either at the church or at someone's home comes in.

So, I don't know, maybe I overstated. My boss, who has loved his church for 13 years recently told me he is thinking of leaving with his family. He feels it is getting off track. Maybe its just that people come and go from churches as their lives and needs change.

Hi Geisha :) Arrrrggggghhhhh - I just wrote a huge answer to you and it disappeared. Its getting late, I'll start over in the morning. That is so annoying.

Fabulous posts Tom and Chockful. I live my life looking for Christians - the ones in life, people you meet. For example, at my job, I have "found" the Christians. It evolved over time. We hang out, have lunch, occasionally talk about things and I end up sharing what God has taught me lately, or this or that. They think I am some kind of genius - I laugh, but they ask, how do you know so much? I tell them I pray and ask God to teach me and to show me Christ. It slowly dawned on me - what I have is basically a fellowship - its just Christians fellowshipping, at lunch, in the hallways, the guy from the mailroom who gives me the mail, etc.

I used to think, well, maybe I should find a church, but my family, friends, even neighbors - the Christians are out there. I just ask God to find them for me.

One thing about churches I have noticed, is they are so intent on "growing" their church, they have shows, music, plays, get lots of people, then, don't want to offend them so teach a watered down gospel, or, continually teach "milk." the older ones drift away because they are ready for meat and there is none.

The Lord knows - I'll open my mouth if someone's heart is prepared.

That's another thing - its talking to people whose hearts are prepared. When Christians witness to "natural man" for lack of a better word - no wonder they get annoyed and feel Christians are pushy people who, and tell them to butt out. I don't blame them. The Holy Spirit prepares peoples' hearts. I believe God can show us who is ready and would like to know. Like my homeless guy who I buy the street newspaper from and slip him money here and there - I just "knew" we were children of the same God and every morning he likes a little Word - a thought, and we go on our way. He is an old, homeless black man (who recently now has a place with a family member) named James, but he is so faithful selling his street newspaper. Christians are everywhere. I think, those of us outside the walls, make our own fellowship whereever we go, with the people we meet outside the gate (I love that analogy).

Now, I have a question for you, does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.

Chockful, that's why, after TWI, I have never been interested in "joining" a church. I know others love it, and good for them. But I just can't get involved with another "organization." I read other Christians websites and the drama about their churches, the problems they have with each other, or "is my church going emergent?" or "is our pastor leading us astray" etc., I see lots of drama. I value my relationship with Christ and will just enjoy him and leave it at that.

Ham, believe it or not, I was never into politics at all until Katrina. I remember telling my sister, everything that guy touches turns to s**t. I was angry enough to vote straight ticket democrat in 2006 for congress to neuter him. Believe it or not, I was registered independent and many, many times never bothered to vote.

I think its more that I feel the country is going off the tracks and off the rails and headed for something terrible - just a feeling in my bones, and I don't think "spending" like a drunken sailor, either under Bush or now is the cure. I just feel a disaster is coming, that's all I know. Financially, we are on the brink. I think if 2010 the elections don't change our course, we will be a radically different country.

So, I don't think its the political people who bug me, but more policies that will come back to bite us.

I could ask the same question - why is someone a progressive or a liberal? I think though, that those of us in the poli forum, in some ways enjoy the debate. They will tell you conservatives are mean people and conversvatives think libruls are delusional, but, in some ways, the discussion is rough and tumble and, for me, anyway - fun. The trick is not to get sucked into it and take it "seriously."

I guess, I have always felt we are a "fallen" race. I believe mankind is not "inherently" good. Others, who believe people are inherently good and have a spark of the divine, will believe man and government are the answer and to be followed, almost religiously. So, its two views and never the twain will meet. :)

But I am pulling back from there. For those who know me, I'm not a nasty nut, nor a political maven or junkie. Sometimes, its just fun to play on the poli forum.

It works both ways, I see people there and think - how did they get so blinded? I'm sure they think the same of me. But - I do not take it seriously. Its the 'net.

I hope that answers your question.

Watch it Twinky, I called him a troll his first day here and everyone got upset and angry - Roy, who invited him here, castigated me thoroughly.

Meanwhile, when I asked Mr. Composer his name, his website, to let us see some people and their "testimonies" of what Composer had done for him - there was nada, zip. He's got nothing - except taunts to total strangers and his own terror of God (if he didn't care about God - he wouldn't be making a lifetime railing against him - most people who don't believe have better things to do with their time).

So, some dude, we never heard of, who's never been around TWI is supposed to be someone important?

Meh, he's a noone and has nothing and when asked to show us his results via other people, a website, his educational credentials, he backed away quickly.

Don't feed the trolls is excellent advice.

Tom is correct, it was a ministry run by Doop and Heefner. Twice VP came to Rye for a short visit, I was at both of those meetings in Tim Bi**p's living room.

Other than that, we basically met, then went about our business. Yes, he had taught the class, but he was on a farm somewhere - the Heefners were our leaders - make no mistake about that. It was their love and evangelism that brought us to the Bible. It just spread like wildfire.

Witnessing was easy: Hey, want to come to a fellowship and learn about God? Sure, when is it?

It was that easy because I believe the Holy Spirit had been preparing the hearts of young people in the midst of the hippie/drugs/new religions/etc. They were already prepared. All someone had to do was tell them about Christ and they were ready to learn.

I moved before the advanced class. But, to me, the first thing that started to spoil it was being told I now must fellowship in Larchmont at so and so's house and not in Rye. I slowly started to drift away because I wasn't wild about so and so, had enjoyed the larger groups and felt like they were starting to isolate us from the main body by splitting us into these little groups without our friends. Its another story how I got back in when we moved from NY to Ohio going into my senior year of high school.

But, it really was free, easy, a move of God, no rules under the Heefners - just the Word.

There was an unfettered, free time there...

Soul Searcher - it was. I can't tell you how many good ideas were quashed or ruined by "leadership."

I can't see why anyone would still be giving their lives and allegiance to TWI, or any religious or political figure for that matter.

So, this summer jam, do towns people come to it? It would have been a great way to get to know their neighbors. Or is it "closed corporation" so to speak - only TWI people?

Wow - thanks for bringing this up again - its always wonderful to see what happened, where we were, and those of us still here. :)

I don't think so Mark. I too looked at universalism and believed it for a long time, and eventually, according to scripture had to discard it.

Maybe there's a reason most people have rejected it.

Granted, its a wonderful, feel good belief. If it makes you feel better, and to more easily "believe" in God - go for it.

Gen, the Sydney House was a beautiful estate, lovely wood interior, stairway, floors railings, lovely bedrooms upstairs. It was TWI's historical museaum and fine art, or pieces of note VP collected along the way or that people gave him.

It was also used for weddings, receptions, banquets, special events, various department dinners. It really was lovely - and was taken care of well and got a lot of use. I have some fond memories of weddings and a few other things I went to there.

Twinky, I felt so sorry for you in-residence people. The corps had changed a lot in a couple of years since I had graduated (from the 7th) that, watching the 9, 10, 11, 12 - I was really having my doubts about the program. You guys had enough to do. There would have no reason to worry about staff.

No Soul searcher, no one would have fired us - see, it was TWI "culture" so to speak, at least at HQ and Emporia. As long as we performed our jobs, they really didn't care what we staff did on our time. Besides, the President, Dr. Wierwille was an alcoholic - Drambuie. The 7-up he drank in the morning for breakfast - a little Drambuie livened that up. Fortified to face the day, the coffee he sipped on all day - Drambuie sure gave it a zing! In the evening, he'd keep the bottle, the corps thought he was just having a little evening "nightcap" - no one had a clue by then he was buzzing heavily. Sometimes, at home, he and CG (one of his aides) would just drink it out of the bottle, as I have been told by reliable people who knew him well.

Also, many of us rode motorcycles - what else are you going to do in those remote places for fun? The rides were fun though.

OldSkool, or who ever said it, ok, I did not know that Way builders had been disbanded. I'm sure though, if DM had demanded, she could have had a house with privacy. But, too late, she couldn't have one built now without questions. Does her apartment have a secret underground shuttle to Rosie's house?

Soul searcher, let me tell you, as one who was on staff for 5 years at emporia and HQ - yes, we did party, and we partied hard. If the corps in training had had any idea of how hung over their work coordinators were - well, that's why there was lots and lots of coffee.

When I was at emporia, we had the new corps coordinator move in. The staff was partying, as usual that evening, the corps was in class, we were in my room and an adjoining room, and I had gotten a couple of my buddies, who were still in residence, out of class and they were partying with us - he walked in, his first night there - and was astounded. To his credit, he never stopped the parties because his wife also liked them, she would borrow my fifth of JD when she ran out while she was privately entertaining her married boy toy she had picked out - of course, no one was supposed to figure it out, they were "just good friends."

I truly think the staff partied so hearty was because, after hours, what else is there to do in the middle of Kansas or in the corn fields of Ohio??

The Way house was built by Bo Reahard while he was in residence (1st or 2nd corps I believe). The deal was, he'd build it and if he ever left TWI would buy it from him. He never got paid. It was very nice, I was friends with he and his wife and went over there quite often.

I also wonder, does any one here remember Dean Don's house that was custom built on a beautiful wooded lot a couple of miles from HQ? I wonder who's in that one now.

Also, I am surprised Donna did not get her own house or have TWI build one for her - why did she settle for an apt. in Founder's hall? I'm surprised - all the people around. I find that odd. Even I, this greasespot has a house.